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[DE]Rebecca

Drop Rates, Datamines, and Digital Extremes (DDD).

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1 minute ago, DawnFalcon said:

Void_Glitch's site was not in game. It was hosted on github. The data was usually discussed on Reddit.

What ARE you even on about? (I can be "snarky" as well, so yea)

You are missing the point so hard it's like you just skimmed the post of mine you originally quoted, or didn't read it at all. 

The point is that people are acting like they are entitled to have DE publish all the exact drop rate percentages IN GAME, and there really aren't any big titles, and hardly any titles at all period, that do that. That publish them in game.

You responded with a total non-sequitur that I was wrong because "wow allows them to be published on a third party website", which if you can stop being snarky for five seconds, is totally different from being published in game, or even being published on the companies official website.

I shouldn't have to re-explain this, it was very clear in my original post that you quoted, but there you go, so yea. 

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Kinda aggressive hah? Well datamining is not something unique in video games. People have been doing it, releasing info about unreleased content. One of the latest examples. Total War: Warhammer DLC content. It was datamined well before the actual release. Haven't heard them making instructive posts about it and updating their terms and conditions. So what? You wanna hide it - hide it better. No need to go on offensive and blame people for datamining. Jesus Christ, what a fuss.

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2 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

wikia

OR we can have actually usable codex or a part of warframe website, which hopefully won't be so ads-infested that I'll have to completely disable scripts there, like I did with wikia.

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4 minutes ago, DawnFalcon said:

No, this is complete nonsense. The issue is DE's mistakes and deliberate actions both on this, which were revealed via datamining. "In game" is completely irrelevant, and indeed Void_Glitch did absolutely *nothing* visible within the game process itself (unlike, say, a discord overlay).

Your point seems to be "STOP PLAYING". I hear you, you are really tying to persuade me the community is as toxic as DE's legal letters.

Perhaps I will give you back the words you have put in my mouth, and you can put them in yours, chew them up, eat them, and then we don't have to hear those words again that I never said. 

You cannot seem to discuss the point I actually made. Instead, you seem determined to fight someone and be as toxic as possible. 

It's like you cannot even discuss what I am discussing, it is clear to me you are talking about something entirely different than I am, and looking at things through a lens of anger. 

Before you call someone else toxic, think about your own actions. I detest having words put in my mouth, or having people refuse to even listen to the actual point I am making. I guess we are done here, I am not going to keep repeating the point you deliberately misrepresent. 

I see your edit, and I would be glad to discuss things with you if you had any intention of reading what I actually wrote, or the point I actually made. 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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After what happened with TWW I can't really blame you for coming down on this. The timing is strange, to me, though.

While I understand that this has always been against your rules and that you've never explicitly condoned it, you have let it go on long enough that it became a normal part of the community. Everyone who paid attention around releases knew that they could just go to reddit and get all the information they needed from a void_glitch topic. This should have been cracked down on ages ago, if you were really against it. It reeks of damage control and convenient lawyer shenanigans to make sure you can protect a secret (which I'm all for you guys having a surprise, don't misunderstand).

I could care less about drop rates being posted. Even knowing the drop rates won't stop the whining kids from complaining that they didn't get the item they were farming for. Knowing something is a 10% drop is just going to cause them to complain when they don't get it within 10 tries just like they already did, anyway.

In all honesty, the datamining information was only useful to people who pretended it gave them more information than it did. At one point it was useful for finding alt-fire stats. Those are in the game now. Others seem to think it's useful to know that a rare item is exceedingly rare, after all. Whatever. I'm not here to judge what you spend your time obsessing about if you're one of those people. I'd rather just play the game and get it when it comes. Publishing those rates, in an official capacity, isn't going to suddenly make you have an easier time getting those items.

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3 minutes ago, DawnFalcon said:

Ah, the liar is going to try and get me banned, right, because your point only those who agree with you should be playing, clearly...

Banned? What are you talking about? I'm just not going to continue a discussion where I am being talked at, and the point I made totally ignored. Have a good day. I certainly don't think you said anything report worthy nor do I care. lol. 

My point, I'll try one last time because I don't want bad blood. I just posted that Reb was correct that most games don't actually publish percentages in game for people to see. This is a simple fact. 

Then you went off on me about something unrelated. As well as telling me that that isn't true because some games allow it offsite (something I never disagreed with), I know some games allow publishing off site. I was talking about in game. I'm not even sure what we are arguing about, because the stuff you are telling me I am wrong about is stuff I never argued. And my post that you quoted wasn't a value judgment or an opinion, I was just pointing out that what she said was technically speaking true. Not sure why all the hostility. 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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1 minute ago, DawnFalcon said:

Ah, the liar is going to try and get me banned, right, because your point only those who agree with you should be playing, clearly...

He said cheese pizza was good.

You said cheese pasta was good.

When he said that he wasn't talking about pasta you went on a tangent about how pasta and pizza are totally the same thing. Stop skimming and read the post you original responded to.

To make it clear:
DE isn't wrong. There aren't many games that, officially, first party, post their drop rates.
To counter this, you said a third party site posted rates.

The two aren't the same thing. Again. Cheese pizza vs cheese pasta.

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1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Banned? What are you talking about? I'm just not going to continue a discussion where I am being talked at, and the point I made totally ignored. Have a good day. I certainly don't think you said anything report worthy nor do I care. lol. 

You don't like comments on what you type. You don't like taking you literally...

You're showing a very nasty side to Warframe's community.

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2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We asked you who does it best so we could figure out a quick way (since the urgency is on) to reflect a currently appreciated method of developers giving %'s. Where could we seek wisdom of other developers’ actions to demystify the RNG process and publish drops? The trick is that this behaviour is not strongly or exhaustively exhibited elsewhere in the industry (unless the law demands it in certain regions). There were a few (only one from a game I play), but clearly we have an opportunity here! We want to set a new standard of transparency with our community and give our players further insight into the processes in which they are assigned rewards.

Unfortunately Rebecca, I think this is another case where DE will have to do a lot of the work themselves in creating a good way for this to work. I agree with above posts though, that ideally this should all be in game. As a Guide of the Lotus, I get a ton of questions about basic data, not just drop rates but things like raw numbers for damages or simpler questions like what weapons unlock at what Mastery Ranks. It's hard for me to constantly alt-tab to wiki the information, as my PC doesn't like to minimize and maximize Warframe repeatedly. For players less familiar with both the game and wiki, that's an even bigger obstacle.

I do agree with a lot of the suggestions above, though. There should be a secondary menu, maybe built into the Codex and/or Navigation UIs, that allow this information to be accessed at will, in game, in an effective manner. It means more coding, and that it would take longer to implement, but overall it would be a boon to players and the community in general. Even if it makes the UI a little more complicated. Pioneering this kind of transparency, though, would be amazing in ways I don't think DE quite understands. Void_Glitch, regardless of if you agree with him or if what he was doing was right or wrong, was obviously providing a sought after service that at the least the wiki has made ubiquitous use of. I know even devs have and do rely on the wiki as well, so the raw stats are incredibly useful. Also, there have been cases, as pointed out, where the datamined data have helped to highlight issues and resolve them when, for whatever reason, errors have made their way into the client side coding.

With that in mind, please leave in some way to keep the data clean. Some kind of automation that reads the data as it enters the game and posts the stats as they change would help with this. Human error happens, we've seen it before. But I think that knowing as much of that human error is worked out of that system as possible would go a long way towards validating the data. Even with the helpful tips on loading screens we've seen discrepancies where the "facts" that show up aren't properly updated to match the game as things are constantly tweaked and changed. A system  that automatically updates the data sheets with changes as they make it into the code would help solve this problem, and provide real time data to DE and the community both as stats are tweaked and changed, especially if those changes aren't intentional. Making it a sheet that has to be changed by hand with everything that's altered as it happens would be a giant time investment that would only grow more inaccurate with time, no matter how well cultivated.

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1 minute ago, Chipputer said:

The two aren't the same thing. Again. Cheese pizza vs cheese pasta.
 

Ah, your other account. Right. As you make it clear legal action is good, and no doubt you'll be urging it against me, right. All to back up a lie on your part.

You want to make thinking about cheese illegal, I see.

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Just now, DawnFalcon said:

You don't like comments on what you type. You don't like taking you literally...

You're showing a very nasty side to Warframe's community.

Shrug, it sounds like its you who seems concerned with trying to drag me down. I made a statement, I was quoted and told I was wrong about something I never said. I don't know how it is nasty to defend myself or clarify my own statement, when I feel it wasn't represented properly.  Anyways, I won't respond again, have a good day, I mean that. :smile:

It seems the nasty side are those who cannot help but drag down the devs and everyone else who won't pull out a pitchfork and torch. :smile:

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1 minute ago, Jeahanne said:

With that in mind, please leave in some way to keep the data clean. Some kind of automation that reads the data as it enters the game and posts the stats as they change would help with this. Human error happens, we've seen it before. But I think that knowing as much of that human error is worked out of that system as possible would go a long way towards validating the data. Even with the helpful tips on loading screens we've seen discrepancies where the "facts" that show up aren't properly updated to match the game as things are constantly tweaked and changed. A system  that automatically updates the data sheets with changes as they make it into the code would help solve this problem, and provide real time data to DE and the community both as stats are tweaked and changed, especially if those changes aren't intentional. Making it a sheet that has to be changed by hand with everything that's altered as it happens would be a giant time investment that would only grow more inaccurate with time, no matter how well cultivated.

This, this is a reasonable response which should really have been done before you moved on this, DE. (And without needing legal letters, for that matter)

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31 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Shrug, it sounds like its you who seems concerned with trying to drag me down

So you blame me for your sudden hostility because wowhead exists, and your claim "in-game" was in a discussion about knowing drop rates, period? Well. The reality is drop rates very, very rarely remain secret in games. Not even Perfect World have managed that.

The reality is being discussed in threads over on Reddit. It ain't pretty.

...

Anyway, I just realized I should post a rather important disclaimer - I am investigating doing a MRes based on looking into the ethics of F2P. So yea, bias.

Edited by DawnFalcon
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11 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Condescending flappery.

You had me at first and then you started sneering down at your fellow players. Stop that. it's unproductive.

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I love this game and i love the developers, i hope you guys find a solution to these problems that keep the new and old players playing. look at WoW and other MMOs for answers, its never a bad thing to get inspiration from other games.

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Just now, MarrikBroom said:

You had me at first and then you started sneering down at your fellow players. Stop that. it's unproductive.

I wasn't aware I needed your approval to post my opinions on what publishing rates does or doesn't do.

As in: accomplishes nothing.

The second a bunch of people think their RNG isn't working out they're going to say DE is lying about the rates. It's not productive. It's a waste of DE's time. There's a reason most companies don't post their rates and DE is only doing it due to a bunch of crybabies who obsess over how fast they can farm an item.

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32 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

accomplishes nothing.

No what accomplishes nothing is you. Through the entire oberon thread I saw you bashing everyone around you as stupid, worthless, not doing anything worthwhile, and all that. So let's all put you on a pedistal (prime) to bow down at your Rightness and Perfection we should all aspire to. ALL HAIL @chipputer. ALL. HAIL.

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I really appreciate this decision. This a a huge step in the right direction, to make this wonderful game more transparent and easier to understood. I hope this website will be live soon(like in the next 2 months or earlier).

Keep up the good work and don't leave us in the dark. (It's cold there)

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40 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

I wasn't aware I needed your approval to post my opinions on what publishing rates does or doesn't do.

As in: accomplishes nothing.

The second a bunch of people think their RNG isn't working out they're going to say DE is lying about the rates. It's not productive. It's a waste of DE's time. There's a reason most companies don't post their rates and DE is only doing it due to a bunch of crybabies who obsess over how fast they can farm an item.

Need a Internet hug? :satisfied:

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>using external webpage to show the drop rates, stats for skill weapons, etc.
>not implement those stats data ingame instead

at least you tried ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
but if you want to make it "seamless" and "better", make "Stats for Nerds" button on HUD options on ingame options that shows us numbers and numbers and numbers, that would be really appreciated, thanks.

Edited by Levirei
things
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47 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

The second a bunch of people think their RNG isn't working out they're going to say DE is lying about the rates. It's not productive. It's a waste of DE's time. There's a reason most companies don't post their rates and DE is only doing it due to a bunch of crybabies who obsess over how fast they can farm an item.

You say this as if DE hasn't had sub-1% drop rates on items.

DE can do what they want. But, back when I played this game regularly, I preferred to know whether pursuing a specific item was a valid goal or a waste of my time. If valuing my time is being a "crybaby" then I guess I am one and I'm not ashamed of it.

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16 minutes ago, AizenIchi said:

I really appreciate this decision. This a a huge step in the right direction, to make this wonderful game more transparent and easier to understood. I hope this website will be live soon(like in the next 2 months or earlier).

Keep up the good work and don't leave us in the dark. (It's cold there)

Putting people in the dark leaves them with a lot of empty space to fill, and many people fill it with bd things in place of actual information.

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This is all cool and dandy I honestly mainly want to see the drop locations in the Codex of non Prime warframes because the times that I forget I have to look it up on the internet while I'm playing your game.

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I mean, I'm all for it if we get a legit (Official) repository that takes the numbers directly from the client, shows the droptables etc. 
That's what we had before except that it wasn't official.

However I can't quite grasp why DE would issue a C&D instead of contacting VoiD_Glitch and talk about it first.
DE could very well have asked them to not publish anything quest related (Since one would assume the C&D landed close to Tennocon for a reason, IE the next big thing will probably be kicking around in the files from the Harrow patch), if they didn't agree/comply well that'd be another story.

On the point of Umbra & Primed Streamline, the consensus (and what VoiD_Glitch has said) seems to be that they were not responsible for that whole thing.
And throwing a C&D at something DE themselves stated that "parts of the community found value in these things.", really seems like the Nuclear option here.

I guess we'll see what happens.

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35 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

I wasn't aware I needed your approval to post my opinions on what publishing rates does or doesn't do.

As in: accomplishes nothing.

The second a bunch of people think their RNG isn't working out they're going to say DE is lying about the rates. It's not productive. It's a waste of DE's time. There's a reason most companies don't post their rates and DE is only doing it due to a bunch of crybabies who obsess over how fast they can farm an item.

You keep using the word "obsessed" like everyone who is more interested in drop rates than you is some sort of mentally sick weirdo, and apparently on top of things also a crybaby and is trying to find a scapegoat when something doesn't drop. That's a strawman if I've ever seen one. I don't doubt these people theoretically exist in a community of this size, but it's pretty obvious you've just picked an extreme example in order to ridicule and invalidate concerns - not based on their own merit, but based on the person's attitude.

Pre-datamine droptables used to be much more stingy than they are right now, and the datamine transparency allowed the community to hold DE accountable for their design decisions without the need of completing thousand of runs and relying on hearsay. It also revealed bugs like items missing from drop tables or being put in a false location, which can get fixed much more quickly if an entire community is proofreading the drop tables. In some games drop rates may be secondary, but in Warframe it's central. "Obsessing over how fast [you] can farm an item" is literally what the F2P model is based around, because every time you grind you make the decision to spend time instead of plat and you're making that decision based on an estimate based on drop chances. Not everyone has the leisure to spend hours or days grinding away without caring/"obsessing" about when the item is gonna drop.

Lastly, even if you completely disagree with this game's community consensus on the matter, droprates are becoming srs bsns on a bigger scale now. This thread's OP itself references the fact that China has started requiring developers of lootbox games to officially provide droptable stats to prevent anti-consumer practices of extremely low drop rates for desired rewards. Even if you don't understand why people care about droptables, I think it's important to recognize that enough people do to make this an important issue to DE.

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