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[DE]Rebecca

Drop Rates, Datamines, and Digital Extremes (DDD).

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6 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Putting people in the dark leaves them with a lot of empty space to fill, and many people fill it with bd things in place of actual information.

Perhaps this is the cynic in me talking, but nothing prevents that from happening anyway.

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1 minute ago, Farris said:

I mean, I'm all for it if we get a legit (Official) repository that takes the numbers directly from the client, shows the droptables etc. 
That's what we had before except that it wasn't official.

However I can't quite grasp why DE would issue a C&D instead of contacting VoiD_Glitch and talk about it first.
DE could very well have asked them to not publish anything quest related (Since one would assume the C&D landed close to Tennocon for a reason, IE the next big thing will probably be kicking around in the files from the Harrow patch), if they didn't agree/comply well that'd be another story.

On the point of Umbra & Primed Streamline, the consensus (and what VoiD_Glitch has said) seems to be that they were not responsible for that whole thing.
And throwing a C&D at something DE themselves stated that "parts of the community found value in these things.", really seems like the Nuclear option here.

I guess we'll see what happens.

I thought I read somewhere on Reddit that it wasn't technically a full C&D order, but just an official warning from their lawyers on their official lawyer letterhead or what have you. I mean, considering void_glitch's age I'm sure he took it the same way one would a full C&D, as I'm sure he couldn't afford to fend off legal challenges, but I thought they hadn't gone "all the way" yet? I am prepared to stand corrected if there is evidence otherwise of course, and I still think having someone like Rebecca reach out to him before the lawyers would have been a good idea, but I'm not sure they went full lawyer on him right away. 

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Even if it wasnt an official legal C&D that is how it was treated and how it is viewed as. So definitely the Nuclear Option. I know it soured how I feel.

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   I'm glad to see you want to get a somewhat middleground, and really, it's a relief! some players were worried you'll start changing the drop tables to unreasonable rates and keeping them in the dark. I didn't wanted to believe you'll do something like that, and i'm glad you didn't. I can stand by your side with you collaborating with the Wiki and giving us the players, all the data we want to maximize our farming, making our investment feel appreciated.

   Still, i'd like to see the situation of VoiD_Glitch acknowledged. I'd like to hear why lawyers, why did you choose to take such step. Is it because you believe you can't let anybody use datamining to prevent scamming? is it because you can't be sure he's completely innocent? Either way, i'm not asking for you to back on the cease & desist. I just wanna hear why. I might agree or disagree, but that doesn't matter: I'd like to see you act like the cool guys i watch on the devstreams and talk about what you're planning to do, rather than a cold corporation that sends lawyers first and talk later.

   And about the spoiled content... Tons of people said that you suddenly started this because Tennocon is almost here. Like you're protecting this event from being spoiled, that's why you suddenly are so harsh with datamining. I can't believe you'd do such a childish thing. I admire you, and i'm certain the scamming was the main issue. I hope these opinions don't get to you.

Lastly... Hmmm... i'm going to say a silly thing here, but here it goes:

   I've mastered some D&D games. I spend weeks planning a story, writing down the details, drawing maps, preparing encounters and locations for my players to enjoy. And each detail i prepared, i did in complete secret, letting my player guess the next chapter of the story. And we all had a lot of fun.
   By no means i believe doing so and running an F2P game for 5 years out of nothing (not even with a publisher) could be in the same level. But i may understand how DE feels about contents of the game being spoiled. Even if it's just a little.

Anyways, I support stopping datamining, while being super clear about every data players require in the game for farming, building, etc. Even if it's just in the Wiki (but it'll be awesome if it's added in the codex) And perhaps in the future tutorials will be capitalizing on that data and [DE]Pablo will add a beautiful search bar to help my newbie clanmates find what they need :D

Carry on DE, do the best you can do (as you always do).:thumbup:

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It's not that hard to add more pages to the codex with info like all the Warframe's have on the wiki. DE could also add a codex entry and short videos/GiFs that explains how the codex works and most other features. it just takes imagination and good programming

Edited by Regenerating_Degenerate

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6 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Even if it wasnt an official legal C&D that is how it was treated and how it is viewed as. So definitely the Nuclear Option. I know it soured how I feel.

I get what you are saying: void_glitch certainly took it that way, and that's understandable. Like I said, it would have been preferrable for Rebecca or someone to reach out to him and at least give him a chance to cooperate, before they sent anything from legal. But, and this may just be my desire to try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt in terms of their intentions, but I think not sending him a full C&D yet was them trying to be nice about it and not come down too hard on him. 

Now, I know you are going to say "they still did come down too hard on him", and I'm not saying I disagree with that. But I think, in their way, they were trying to be nice. I mean, vision is 20/20 in hindsight, and I think the devs might have handled this matter further if they could have known how it would go down, but I don't think they were trying to "go nuclear", at least not yet. 

I mean, think of it this way. The chief dataminer is still allowed to post on these forums (he posted earlier in this thread) and Rebeccca had a conversation with him through private message on Reddit (although I have no idea what was said between them obv). My point is, if they were being totally nuclear and mean, I don't think they would even give void_glitch the time of day, or talk with him through pm's on reddit, or allow him to say on the forums how he feels he's been mistreated. They would just have legal tell him to shut up, and then ban and ignore him. They didn't do any of that. Instead, they are trying to find a solution that works for everyone. 

I agree this could have been handled better, but at this point, after the initial mistakes they made in dealing with it, I think they are doing the best they can, and I don't think they are trying to be mean or go nuclear, even if it understandably appears that way. 

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TBH this reminds me of what Rockstar/Take-Two recently did with OpenIV. Anyone else getting that vibe?

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Just now, Strykerclaw96 said:

TBH this reminds me of what Rockstar/Take-Two recently did with OpenIV. Anyone else getting that vibe?

yup, not in the same exact way, but yea this feels very scummy

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11 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

This is about reverse engineering and vectors being opened with the intent to scam trade, forge items, create 3rd party servers and generally leak unfinished content and game internals that can be just as misleading as undisclosed information. Seeing a trade for Primed Streamline take place for thousands of Platinum meant people were about to get caught in the crossfire of tolerated data-mining and malicious use of datamined information. We sought legal counsel when hacking took place and evidence piled up, never before then. We acted to stop the willful and selfish compromising of the game’s code for personal gain.

Rereading this and that just seems like a shot in the foot because this is so professionally written that doesn't sound factual at all.

I never saw anything in the datamined info, not the one in question, that told me how to inject an item into the game, it just wasn't there, the people who did it knew what they were doing, even if they used the same datamine it was just for convenience because they could and most likely still can datamine themselves anyway.

The mention of Primed Streamline case just seems to make the whole thing seem much bigger than it is, because when games are hacked people won't really bother with the datamined info (which many times even the game wiki's use that same info) because it's not a tutorial on how to hack.

The legal counsel and evidence part kinda of reek, because it doesn't really say who's this legal counsel and where this evidence came from, and considering how ignorant and money hungry lawyers can be, it's hard to trust this little post and respect this finds, because if a lawyer told me they had evidence that the datamine was the reason behind all this I'd be laughing and seriously thinking about suing them instead until I saw actual evidence and not "we think". Even on TV, where news should (but obviously aren't) be reviewed multiple times by multiple people before being publicized, made and reviewed by people that should know how to research things properly (which sadly these days it's rare to find a "professional" that can do so), still do completely ignorant articles about games and hacking, and it's quite hilarious when they go with "that 4chan guy".

Because it really sounds like this lawyers just opened google and found the datamine in the first 5 searches and decided, oh, this guy decrypted some game files and posted a bunch of text in git, he's the source of all evil. Either that or the premise entirely is "one source exist, all evil happens because of it", which ignores the fact that if someone knows how to hack your game they won't need any data miners work.

Still nice to see some work being done instead of going "if no other F2P game does it, we won't either", we are not other games, we actually are very different from other games out there, which is why the droptables are so important for us. If we don't know where serration drops and how hard it is to get in specific locations we won't get it any soon, our rifles will be crap, meanwhile in WoW the staff that you got in the previous level might as well be useless because you already got a new one, most of our items aren't throw always, they are essential, that's why knowing where they drop and how rare they are is so sought after.
Yet again, nice to see things being done to address that, but please, don't leave everything up to lawyers. Honestly, I wouldn't let Lawyers handle my stuff hands free, after all they protect the good but also try to free the bad as long as they get paid.

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52 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I get what you are saying: void_glitch certainly took it that way, and that's understandable. Like I said, it would have been preferrable for Rebecca or someone to reach out to him and at least give him a chance to cooperate, before they sent anything from legal. But, and this may just be my desire to try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt in terms of their intentions, but I think not sending him a full C&D yet was them trying to be nice about it and not come down too hard on him. 

Now, I know you are going to say "they still did come down too hard on him", and I'm not saying I disagree with that. But I think, in their way, they were trying to be nice. I mean, vision is 20/20 in hindsight, and I think the devs might have handled this matter further if they could have known how it would go down, but I don't think they were trying to "go nuclear", at least not yet. 

I mean, think of it this way. The chief dataminer is still allowed to post on these forums (he posted earlier in this thread) and Rebeccca had a conversation with him through private message on Reddit (although I have no idea what was said between them obv). My point is, if they were being totally nuclear and mean, I don't think they would even give void_glitch the time of day, or talk with him through pm's on reddit, or allow him to say on the forums how he feels he's been mistreated. They would just have legal tell him to shut up, and then ban and ignore him. They didn't do any of that. Instead, they are trying to find a solution that works for everyone. 

I agree this could have been handled better, but at this point, after the initial mistakes they made in dealing with it, I think they are doing the best they can, and I don't think they are trying to be mean or go nuclear, even if it understandably appears that way. 

All I was told was to refer to what the lawyers told me and to discuss the matter with them. Doesn't really help me solve the situation when the lawyers most likely don't know what Warframe is...

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It seems to me that some decision in the pasts few months and year, singular, have brought a series of misconception and discontent.

The  devolpers of this game have stated before that their goal or 'way' of working with its player it's by listening to them and not making decision based on what's better for say making even more money, at least I've seen it that way, and while at it when you try to 'make everyone happy' you are bound to have some conflicts with a few of the players themselves.

Why? Because they listen and if they listen both parties are bound to give their opinions on a certain thing. This makes a great part of the game and community, the devolpers, so players be patient and understanding with them because they got a lot in their hands and a lot of players.

Don't be rude or make any unnecessary comments.

However our dearest developers we know you listen and perhaps that's why this whole fiasco has come undone, it is for that reason that I ask you to carefully study each comment posted about the situation because you don't want to make controversial decisions that would in a way affect your fan base as a whole.

With that being said I wish the best of luck resolving this situation and hope I am not disappointed with the results and even if I am I will continue to play the game for what it is. 

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Regarding: "why not just contact instead of sending lawyers." The thing is, when it comes to a business, contacting a MINOR who does not work for them and asking them to do something, or stop something, it SHOULD be done through an attorney, to protect all sides. Having attorney's draft letters of communication, especially when it involves something like this, is the better option to make sure someone doesn't go off half cocked and say something they shouldn't, or do something they shouldn't. Now, it probably could have, and may have been better, to have it drafted by an attorney and then signed by Steve and or the team, but the reality is that it's usually better and safer for everyone for attorneys to mediate and write things so that things aren't too threatening, or promise too much, etc.

Sending an outsider an e-mail, by yourself as an owner/employee of a company that has partners and shareholders is usually very stupid, and often breaches company bylaws. It is precisely the reason why companies have in-house attorneys, to write letters like this instead of having joe-shmoe part-owner write it.

Edited by Gelkor
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This is a good start.

Let's give it a shot and see how it goes, then polish it to be just right in a couple of smaller iterations.

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How do we know the information that's officially published is everything? It's not all about drop rates and damage. There are some mechanics that nobody would know about if it weren't for datamining. It's half the wiki's ability information. How will we know if, say, the Chesa kubrow thing isn't happening again, or there aren't items missing from drop tables?

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OOooo, I heard about this this morning from Shy's video. Was DE taking notes from and trying to pull a Take2/Rockstar?

Yeah, it's cool that you're working on a page with actual percentages right when you pull this, but it feels more like a reactionary measure to stave off the backlash.

The problem is, is that are the numbers you provide on that page even trust worthy? DE hasn't been known to be completely honest.

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15 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

This right here is very important. Not only is this guy being targeted for something with which he had nothing to do, but nobody even tried to talk it out first. There was no personal request to stop publishing this data. It was straight to the lawyers. This just screams "we're bigger than you, we can do what we like". THis situation was handled very poorly right from the start.

And how do we know the information that's officially published is everything? It's not all about drop rates and damage. There are some mechanics that nobody would know about if it weren't for datamining. It's half the wiki's ability information. How will we know if, say, the Chesa kubrow thing isn't happening again, or there aren't items missing from drop tables?

Very good points as the abilities short descriptions are absolutely useless.

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What we need is transparency, not only on drop rates, but on how every item and ability in the game works.

The game I think does it best is EVE online, for every change they give detailed breakdowns with numbers while it's still being worked on.  While they don't publish drop rates, it isn't needed because most everything can be farmed for easily (they do tell us exactly where and what to farm), and the few things that truly are rare are easily traded for on the market (something DE actively avoids).

Below are examples of the kind of transparency I expect from DE
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=7291
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=521614
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=484374&find=unread

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=494896&find=unread
https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/mining-foreman-revolution/
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=491069&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=496981&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=512146&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=521682&find=unread

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Publishing drop rates may not silence the whiners, but nothing short of handing out loot gratis would do that.

However.

In Warframe it is rather important to know the drop rate for a give item.  Why?  Because the drop rate of an item is not fixed to its rarity alone.  Drop rate varies with location as well.  A particular item may have a 5% drop chance on one node, and a 25% drop chance on another.  If a player is farming said item, why would they waste their time farming that item at the 5% location?

The point was made that publishing drop rates will only encourage players to ignore certain nodes of the map.  Then it is up to DE to ensure a distribution of rewards such that most, ideally all map nodes have at least one thing a player will need or be wanting at some point in their time with the game.  And Warframe already does a fairly decent job at this, regardless of the drop rates being published or unpublished.

Would it make sense, then, to simply fix drop rates for an item of a given rarity to one value?  A rare that drops at A,B, and C will always have X% drop chance regardless of A,B, or C?  Dunno.  Why does an item's drop chance vary with location?  Dunno that either.  Would have to ask Sheldon that question.  Not that I would expect much of an answer.  He never did strike me as being very keen on discussing drop information or rationale with the players.  Which always did strike me as rather odd given the Devstreams are supposed to give the players insights into the deeper workings of and ideas behind the game.

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I think a lot of people here are missing the very bigger picture of things.

Datamining isn't only a thing that allows you to see some drop rates, extract textures to see a Prime or Warframe before release, or read through some unfinished scripts. I should remind everyone that the information provided, even if not with bad intentions, leads to understanding how things do work. That means from the way the Evolution Engine handles stuff (which is basically allowing others to know what your programmers have been hard working on without spending a penny) to the very doors of allowing cheaters in the game.

Did VoiD himself do anything with those intentions? Hell no. I know enough of the guy to know he's just a curious person and likes to share that info -- but as the saying goes, curiosity killed the cat. No one can deny, for example, the big hit the War Within script being leaked might have been -- can you imagine working on this for months and then BAM! I don't really want to know how Steve might have felt at that point.

The problem here is we don't really know -- I don't even know if DE can know at all, neither -- if VoiD's work contributed, at any rate, for whatever the reason, to the Umbra and Primed Streamline stuff, or those people ended up making their very own tools and finding their way. And whether it's one case or another, I think NO ONE HERE wants to see this game turn into an absolute cheatfest. Their very creators the first ones.

Whether this was the best thing to do, or if it was right (trust me, right and wrong aren't as easy to depict as a lot of people here want to make it, because it's absolutely right in many aspects for DE, while it's also wrong in many others), what is a fact is that it's the most effective, for better or for worse, and sends a very clear message.

Having said all this, I hope everything clears and things turn out well. Droprates, well, if DE can find a method to deliver those to us that's fine. Ensuring another Chesa situation doesn't happen might be more or less difficult (if DE can make this stuff show on game and retrived directly from the tables, it should be pretty easy to avoid forever more), and that's hwere, undoubtedly, we'd need an external source of info. So there are positives in this, indeed.

@(PS4)VoiD_Glitch if you want a personal advice: Be a bit more picky with what you share (it's one thing to show the RNG chances, another one to rip a Prime model, another one to rip a new character from a quest and another one to leak a script, even if it's added beforehand :P), and if you have a suspicion of what and how that Umbra/Streamline stuff happened, be smart and make sure that doesn't happen again by either, pointing at the flaw or not sharing it. Again, I know you yourself have not done anything with bad intentions, nor are directly responsible of that, but are you sure, 100%, that you undirectly have not contributed somehow to it? That's where I want to go.

So I'm not going to be pointing fingers really here. DE did the right thing, VoiD was doing the right thing (although maybe not carefully enough) and hopefully this situation serves for something useful for once.

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55 minutes ago, (PS4)VoiD_Glitch said:

All I was told was to refer to what the lawyers told me and to discuss the matter with them. Doesn't really help me solve the situation when the lawyers most likely don't know what Warframe is...

Thanks for the clarification. It sounds like things weren't exactly very well explained to you. I feel like this could have been communicated much better. 

36 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

Regarding: "why not just contact instead of sending lawyers." The thing is, when it comes to a business, contacting a MINOR who does not work for them and asking them to do something, or stop something, it SHOULD be done through an attorney, to protect all sides. Having attorney's draft letters of communication, especially when it involves something like this, is the better option to make sure someone doesn't go off half cocked and say something they shouldn't, or do something they shouldn't. Now, it probably could have, and may have been better, to have it drafted by an attorney and then signed by Steve and or the team, but the reality is that it's usually better and safer for everyone for attorneys to mediate and write things so that things aren't too threatening, or promise too much, etc.

Sending an outsider an e-mail, by yourself as an owner/employee of a company that has partners and shareholders is usually very stupid, and often breaches company bylaws. It is precisely the reason why companies have in-house attorneys, to write letters like this instead of having joe-shmoe part-owner write it.

Hmmm, this is a good point. I probably should have thought of this before stating one of the dev team should have emailed him. I guess I really didn't think of the legal implications of a non-lawyer member of the dev team contacting a minor. 

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24 minutes ago, SicSlaver said:

Very good points as the abilities short descriptions are absolutely useless.

They are certainly not helpful. I find it hard to believe that DE can suddenly completely pick up all the responsibility of giving us ALL of this information without leaving things out. They've never done it before, that's why datamining was so important.

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11 hours ago, Buldozers said:

You should have provided this info long ago. Codex never showed the drop chances, only rarity and that's why we loved the dataminers.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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Sounds good so far, as long as the information about core mechanics useful for players, and more functional data eventually gets into the codex in-game as has been suggested by others.

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5 hours ago, PookieNumnums said:

Long live the glitch~! 

 

Because of that person many tenno were able to farm relics from places that didnt make them want to commit sudoku.

 

 

 

Uhh, Sudoku? I think you meant "seppuku". Although, some of those Sudoku number puzzles do frustrate me enough to contemplate ritual suicide*....

*That was a joke. I do not, in any way, condone suicide or other forms of "self-termination". If you or a loved one is struggling (or suspected of struggling) with thoughts of suicide or suicidal idealization, I urge you to seek whatever help you need. There are a plethora of resources available.

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30 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

They are certainly not helpful. I find it hard to believe that DE can suddenly completely pick up all the responsibility of giving us ALL of this information without leaving things out. They've never done it before, that's why datamining was so important.

They probably never put it in BECAUSE datamining existed. Putting all that data into the game itself would have been an...unnecessary use of time and resources. Especially since I doubt it would be easy to put all that data into the game without resulting in a lot of clutter and/or overwhelming newer players. Datamining was a way to allow the playerbase to know what they need to know about the game while DE focused on other things. But a lot about the game has been revealed before they were ready to reveal it. DE likely saw it as a "necessary evil" so to speak. One that (it seems) they now think is more trouble than it's worth.

I'm not gonna say what DE should/shouldn't have done. It's always easy to say those sorts of things in hindsight. But I know jack about the coding/legal matters here, so my opinion on shoulda/coulda/woulda is pretty much worthless. All I'll say is I hope this site is as accurate and in depth as possible. I don't care how messy it looks, as long as I can find all the information I need to find. Also I know that they're busy with the Harrow update and preparing for Tennocon, but this is kinda important, so the sooner the better.

Edit:

Just to clarify, I'm aware datamining didn't always exist. It's something that DE probably never thought was necessary. But once it happened, it became apparent how valuable a resource it could be. That's my theory at least, haven't been around long enough to really know for sure.

Edited by UvBenServed
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