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Umbra warframes [Discussion & Appreciation][*spoilers*]


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11 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Actually no it isn't. That is what Umbra was described as in the early War Within drafts.

 

Just now, Ksaero said:

It's not.

A draft that was scrapped and taken out of TWW.

We have no idea if its still the same thing or not. Continuity was called "Conjunction" in a previous trailer.

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9 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

A draft that was scrapped and taken out of TWW.

And is now being used in the Sacrifice.

9 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

We have no idea if its still the same thing or not.

Words get changed around, but it is very clearly the same thing. The draft and the Sacrifice trailer have Ballas in both, using the exact same context and even the exact same "All miracles require sacrifice" line. Like you said, Continuity was previously called Conjunction. The name changed, but the concept remained the same.

Edited by (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01
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My speculation runs thus: The original Umbra frames were prototypes, the first created, where Tenno were permanently fused with the frames. They were the basis for production models (Prime frames) and the reason each frame has its own sex and personality. When Prime frames were made, some degree of the mind of the original was copied, which insulated Tenno operating them from the frame to a degree sufficient to stop them from fusing. This is also why frames get stat increases when leveled, as a Tenno attunes with the semi-conscious mind of the frame they become more in sync and better able to use the frame's full power.

 

I also have a suspicion that Tenno don't actually have "real" bodies. The current Operator-mode bodies that sit in the pods are highly refined projections which the Tenno were brainwashed/trained to create and maintain very early on after their recovery (probably both to help them retain some sense of humanity and to limit their power). This is why they're unaging children, that's still the mental image of who they are as a person. The Sacrifice will entail a choice between further solidifying that humanity (resulting in an older, more powerful Operator with closer ties to other people a la the Ostrons and whatever their equivalent on Venus will be) or fusing with a Warframe (thus creating a new Umbra), with that frame becoming the Tenno's 'default' body but limiting them to the current basic functions of Operator mode combined with a markedly stronger frame.

There's implications that what Stalker and his acolytes did is a similar process (albeit more akin to forcefully subverting the existing personality of the frame rather than forming a gestalt with it).

Edited by FlyingDice
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10 minutes ago, FlyingDice said:

My speculation runs thus: The original Umbra frames were prototypes, the first created, where Tenno were permanently fused with the frames. They were the basis for production models (Prime frames) and the reason each frame has its own sex and personality. When Prime frames were made, some degree of the mind of the original was copied, which insulated Tenno operating them from the frame to a degree sufficient to stop them from fusing. This is also why frames get stat increases when leveled, as a Tenno attunes with the semi-conscious mind of the frame they become more in sync and better able to use the frame's full power.

 

I also have a suspicion that Tenno don't actually have "real" bodies. The current Operator-mode bodies that sit in the pods are highly refined projections which the Tenno were brainwashed/trained to create and maintain very early on after their recovery (probably both to help them retain some sense of humanity and to limit their power). This is why they're unaging children, that's still the mental image of who they are as a person. The Sacrifice will entail a choice between further solidifying that humanity (resulting in an older, more powerful Operator with closer ties to other people a la the Ostrons and whatever their equivalent on Venus will be) or fusing with a Warframe (thus creating a new Umbra), with that frame becoming the Tenno's 'default' body but limiting them to the current basic functions of Operator mode combined with a markedly stronger frame.

There's implications that what Stalker and his acolytes did is a similar process (albeit more akin to forcefully subverting the existing personality of the frame rather than forming a gestalt with it).

What about our Operator then? DE's not just gonna remove them after we've done the quest.

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There's three elements to the Warframe/Operator relationship: The frame, the Tenno and the Void energy giving life and power to both. The energy is a constant that acts as foundation, it's not hard to imagine the dominance between Operator and Warframe shifting. Right now, the Operator dominates the relationship, with them literally forcing the frame to do what they want. They're not just the 'will'. The will is more aptly interpreted as the energy coming from the Operator. Their control over the Warframe is more of a chain, or a yoke.

What if the balance shifts, though? Through whatever means, a Warframe could end up dominating the relationship, exerting their own control over the Operator, who would - willingly or not - become little more than a battery for the frame to feed on. Obviously that'd spawn multiple problems, the biggest of which being how to treat the Warframe 'character' in quests and other narrative events if the Operator is subdued. There are almost 35 frames in the game, and DE can't possibly write dialogue for each and every Umbra version of them for every quest that was released prior to theirs. We'd still need a unified narrative voice for Umbra frames to fill in the hole a submissive Operator character leaves.

That's where Helminth could play an important part. The Infested hivemind on our ship worships our frames and despises the Operator, so it'd definitely be conceivable for it to become the garbled, creepy voice of Umbra frames. It wouldn't cause any problems with retrofitting the Helminth character into quests that came out before its release, it's motivations don't clash with the goal of shifting the balance of Operator and Warframe harshly towards the latter, and given that it's brought what looks like the infirmary under its control, could possibly be instrumental in siphoning off the Tenno's power. That pod surrounded by infestation in the back doesn't look Operator sized at all...

The other big issue is the impact such a change would have on gameplay. Does the player have access to all focus trees while the Operator is in hibernation powering their Umbra frame? Does their last used focus tree get locked in? Do they have to sacrifice focus in favor for some entirely new abilities? I'm sure DE could figure that out. Ever since Operators were released, there has been a group of players unsatisfied with their concept - the ones that preferred a more ambiguous, ethereal player representation. Helminth might be DE's answer to that niche of players.

In closing, the three doors in our Orbiter might be symbolic of the integral elements I've talked about before. On one side is the primal, wild, bestial - Helminth. On the other side is the controlled, obedient, loyal - Lotus. And in the middle there's the focal point both elements need - the source, the cause.

All of that is just wild speculation, of course. Still, I think that DE has developed the idea around Umbra a lot further since that leak all the way back.

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23 hours ago, OoKeNnEtHoO said:

Well, I did thought of 1 possibility that could screw everyone over.

It's similar to your dream but will still have Umbra in the quest.

The thing is we have always said Excalibur Umbra will be in the Sacrifice and he does appear in the Sacrifice trailer too.

However, 1 possible plot twist for us could be that he is inside as an NPC but not as a reward and he will appear in later quests as reward which will be even later.

OOF... That's way worse than my dream was... XD

22 hours ago, Unus said:

An introduction as an amazing character, then his brutal killing as he says he passes his legacy on to you, then a series of quests handed out piecemeal of retreiveing his mangled chunks to make our own copy.

 

Sounds like a sort of cold-hearted response from Digital of "You wouldn't shut up about it, so, fine, here's your feckin prize losers." 

 

10 hours ago, OoKeNnEtHoO said:

Well, we are 26 million registered losers after all😂😂😂

 

Whelp, you beat me to it. Good game. 

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5 hours ago, Xenox_Ilz-ot said:

What about our Operator then? DE's not just gonna remove them after we've done the quest.

I kinda covered that. At the end you make a choice: your Operator grows up and becomes more powerful, or you give up that semblance of humanity and the current Operator abilities are folded into your Umbra warframe.

In  the latter case, when you hit 5, your Umbra frame pulls the Minerva instead of the operator, armed with the amp and basic operator abilities meshed with warframe durability, mobility, and abilities(?). Meanwhile the other road wouldn't get the Umbra frame, but would grow up, get better space magic, and new voice lines.

Just spitballing ideas that mesh with lore and the plot choices while also presenting a meaningful decision. If you really dig Operator mode, you get more stuff in that vein but sacrifice access to Umbra frames. If you hate it, it becomes much more warframe-flavored, but you sacrifice your humanity and whatever power increases come with the other path.

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Il y a 9 heures, Rawbeard a dit :

Umbra is the Prime exclusive for China and was made by DE

Il y a 9 heures, (PS4)sack_shot01 a dit :

Truee but how would that fit into lore unless theyre just gonna give it to us without a quest

 

That is Excalibur Umbra Prime ... so still a prime.

We speak about Excalibur Umbra and not Exalibur Umbra Prime

Edited by Wind_Blade
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1 hour ago, Wind_Blade said:

We speak about Excalibur Umbra and not Exalibur Umbra Prime

Same thing, since it's still China only and is "coming to global" for a couple years now, which, let's be honest, will not happen 2018 either.

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11 hours ago, thekevinater said:

umbra frames are tenno who fused with there frame but sadly i dont know how they did it and why 

althugh a friend and i have some theories but we usually over think stuff....

untill we get quest or lore entry about umbra everything you said isint canon

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umbras IMO are warframes who dont need an operator, and developed their own concience

in the rhino prime codex, theres clear indications that warframes were part of a super-soldier program; but they could not be controled, until they discovered by accident "transference" that is, the zariman children possesing the warframes.

more prove of that hypotesis is that in the second dream quest the warframe moved on its own to break the sword, and the acolytes themselves constantly hint about how the warframes are slaves to the operators, and they are beyond repair

maybe umbras are the warframe prototypes (even before the primes) that still didnt got their will severed for transference use.

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13 hours ago, thekevinater said:

umbra frames are tenno who fused with there frame but sadly i dont know how they did it and why 

althugh a friend and i have some theories but we usually over think stuff....

if thats true, then in a sense what your sacrificing is your life for the frame, becoming it.

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17 hours ago, Ksaero said:

It's not.

16 hours ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

And is now being used in the Sacrifice.

Words get changed around, but it is very clearly the same thing. The draft and the Sacrifice trailer have Ballas in both, using the exact same context and even the exact same "All miracles require sacrifice" line. Like you said, Continuity was previously called Conjunction. The name changed, but the concept remained the same.

 

Regardless, you can't treat is as fact when none of us have any information at all. Until the Sacrifice is actually released, everything players say (and have said) about lore implications of Umbra is headcanon and speculation.

Edited by LazerSkink
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5 minutes ago, LazerSkink said:

 

Regardless, you can't treat is as fact when none of us have any information at all. Until the Sacrifice is actually released, everything players say (and have said) about lore implications of Umbra is headcanon and speculation.

Headcanon means fan theory, right? Speculation - yes, but not headcanon.

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3 hours ago, Ksaero said:

Headcanon means fan theory, right? Speculation - yes, but not headcanon.

 

Headcanon, by definition, means someone intepreting some part of a story in a way that is not supported by said story. Strictly believing Umbra to be a rogue warframe due to leaked and scrapped script is headcanon, unless that's just your speculation for now.

Edited by LazerSkink
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Chinaframe's version of Excalibur Prime, made from greed for cash grab:crylaugh:

 

Ok, jokes aside, I think the comics may shed some light.

Granted no info has been released on anything at all about Umbra lore, that captured Excalibur in the comics could be related to the whole Umbra thing.

That Excalibur was captured by Vor and his operator's transference was cut from him by Lotus to prevent Vor from taking over his mind or at least dig into it via what the queens tried to do.

As of now, the state of that Excalibur is still capture unless the next comic release states otherwise.

Who knows what the grineers might do, especially someone like Vor who can modify orokin tech to make his own Seer pistol?

Of course, this would have to have been done prior to him being killed by us in Vor's Prize.

So, that Excalibur could have been in storage for some time.

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I saw a theory a while back that said umbras are sentient (as in having self control and not the Sentient race) warframes requiring no operators and he referenced the Rhino Prime codex entry, also stating a possibility of making our current frames that way too. It would be neat to have that mechanic at least: operators and warframes side by side instead of tag teaming (although its more fun to play as frames). That and having multiple frames you own walk around the orbiter with NPC ai would be hella awesome, or just in static places acting out their idles.

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