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Umbra warframes [Discussion & Appreciation][*spoilers*]

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4 minutes ago, LazerSkink said:

 

They never once said that.

As far as i know, steve said that umbras are different line of warframes in general, and also if he didn't have different abilities, it would be really silly to let people wait for +2 years for a slightly different looking excalibur which isn't going to be better than excal prime coz that would be rude to founders (which only has 25 armor more than regular excalibur) and if it would be just a excalibur with stat variations kinda like wraith or vandal weapons, why keep delaying it then, they could have put that in any day now if it was just a stat tweak.

So if umbras don't have different abilities, then DE is going to have to make one helluva quest to make up for some lack luster over glorified excalibur with different stats that has been waited for more than 2 years by now.

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3 hours ago, Flustershy said:

As far as i know, steve said that umbras are different line of warframes in general, and also if he didn't have different abilities, it would be really silly to let people wait for +2 years for a slightly different looking excalibur which isn't going to be better than excal prime coz that would be rude to founders (which only has 25 armor more than regular excalibur) and if it would be just a excalibur with stat variations kinda like wraith or vandal weapons, why keep delaying it then, they could have put that in any day now if it was just a stat tweak.

So if umbras don't have different abilities, then DE is going to have to make one helluva quest to make up for some lack luster over glorified excalibur with different stats that has been waited for more than 2 years by now.

 

This is exactly what a lot of other people are saying. Only at one point did DE say they want to make the variant unique, but that can be interpreted in many ways. If he has different abilities, there's no reason to call him "Excalibur".

The only reason they've been pushing him back is that he's never been a priority. Even now, it seems the Venus landscape is higher on the list than the Sacrifice.

If people are disappointed that Excalibur Umbra doesn't have different abilities on launch, it's really their fault due to DE never implying that to be the case. In the end, the only thing we can do is wait (because 2 and a half years is apparently not long enough).

Edited by LazerSkink
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10 hours ago, Yung-Azrael said:

Have you even played TSD / TWW m8?

Stalker is a Tenno / Warframe symbiosis just like us but with a difference, he's unaware of his true nature, possibly due to a prolonged transference or something of a similar nature but different e.g. his original consciousness becoming trapped inside the conduit within the "stalker" warframe. Warframe isn't an armour, it's a semi-sentient, cybernetic organism connected to the very human operator via a somatic link. And lore has already confirmed that operator consciousness can become "trapped" or at least fully immersed inside warframes, which is what Stalker seems to be. And there's generally just a hell of a lot of evidence to suggest this.

Yeah I've played it and that was not at all implied or stated still.  Stalker has not been revealed to be a Tenno.  The Warframes are infested, I wouldn't really call them semi-sentient.  

You SERIOUSLY need to go back and revise lore before you try to school me on it.  

Edited by (PS4)lagrue
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11 minutes ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

Yeah I've played it and that was not at all implied or stated still.  Stalker has not been revealed to be a Tenno.  The Warframes are infested, I wouldn't really call them semi-sentient.  

You SERIOUSLY need to go back and revise lore before you try to school me on it.  

I believe he meant the literal definition of sentient - not the in game sentients. 

Few examples when Warframes showed sentience - Rhino Prime's codex, where Proto Rhino went on a rampage before being calmed by a nearby Tenno, and in the second dream, where the Warframe broke Hunhow in half seemingly independent of our control. 

Edited by Blade
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8 minutes ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

You SERIOUSLY need to go back and revise lore before you try to school me on it.  

there's a list of all his "What we know" videos, lore filled and super warframe educational.
 

An he has like every Warframe story currently there (couldn't find the play list, sorry) But it's all the cutscenes and dialouges (so what happens instead of what he does) My work here is done.

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1 hour ago, LightningsVengance said:

 

And none of that states that Stalker is a Tenno like he stated.  You can do any amount of research into the game lore, and that doesn't exist - period.  It has never been CONFIRMED that he is.  

I'm not stupid, I've been playing since the start, over 4 years ago, and I know the story.  I also know that regardless of any strings you want to pin on a board, there is still no conclusive evidence that Stalker is a Tenno.  His codex entry stating he's a low guardian actually implies much the opposite... he is a lower rank than Teshin.  He is below Daxx... so doubtful he is just some Tenno...

I get my lore from in-game, not from youtube videos.  Although I don't like using sources outside of the game, even the wiki makes this point:


It was originally speculated that the Stalker could be a Tenno, however it is unknown if its true.

  • It is possible that the Stalker was a servant of the Orokin Empire, since in his Codex entry he describes himself as hearing the Naga Drums that announced the end of the Old War "from a distance, with the rest of the low Guardians". It is unknown if these Guardians were Dax soldiers or another warrior caste of the Empire.
  • During The Second Dream Quest, the Lotus says that the "truth" of the Tenno Reservoir "drove the Stalker to madness".
  • During The Second Dream, Hunhow rhetorically asks the Stalker "Who destroyed the Orokin, your way of life?" further suggesting that he might have been aligned with the Orokin or perhaps one of the Orokin himself.
  • It is possible that the Stalker himself is confused about or does not remember his true nature and origins. This is hinted at by this line spoken by Hunhow during The Second Dream Quest: "You're asking yourself... Was I one of these wretched things? You know the answer. You still hate them... you still hate... yourself."
Edited by (PS4)lagrue
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2 hours ago, Blade said:

I believe he meant the literal definition of sentient - not the in game sentients. 

Few examples when Warframes showed sentience - Rhino Prime's codex, where Proto Rhino went on a rampage before being calmed by a nearby Tenno, and in the second dream, where the Warframe broke Hunhow in half seemingly independent of our control. 

Sentience requires choice and freedom of thought, the ability to experience pains and pleasures and perceive them - not rampaging like a mindless animal.  Waframes by nature are feral, they don't act on sentient thought - and there is no such term in real life as "semi-sentience" - you are either sentient or you are not.

Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive or experience subjectively.

Nothing even remotely close to what happened in Rhino's codex, that was just an unchained beast with no direction but to kill. 

And what happened in SD is as of yet unexplained - it could be sentience, or it could just be pure symbiotic survival instinct to protect what is in essence a part of itself.  If the Tenno dies, the Warframe essentially goes with it.  Or it could just imply that the Tenno are learning how to use Transference outside of the Somatic Link, even in the most rudimentary forms and in times of emergency.  That scene could mean alot of things that aren't yet explained.  

Edited by (PS4)lagrue
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Just now, PhoenixShadowEvil said:

I am really confused this topic is talk about umbra or stalker?

It's about both because one guy said that Stalker is an Umbra Warframe because he's a Tenno who got trapped in a transference loop - and he stated it matter-of-factly.  I'm debunking his claims based on current lore.

Edited by (PS4)lagrue
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Just now, PhoenixShadowEvil said:

I am really confused this topic is talk about umbra or stalker?

Well Stalker is probably related. He has the body of Excalibur Umbra but with a different helmet. And Hunhow refers to him as "shadow" which is what Umbra means. 

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8 minutes ago, CaptainStrawberry said:

Well Stalker is probably related. He has the body of Excalibur Umbra but with a different helmet. 

EDIT: Nevermind, I was wrong - it seems at some point they did swap his body mesh for Umbra.  When he released it wasn't that way.  

Edited by (PS4)lagrue

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ALL 144 this topic is because different helmet of stalker? really? \_:clem:_/

 

One helmet do not do umbra a fact in game. 

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52 minutes ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

Sentience requires choice and freedom of thought, the ability to experience pains and pleasures and perceive them - not rampaging like a mindless animal.  Waframes by nature are feral, they don't act on sentient thought - and there is no such term in real life as "semi-sentience" - you are either sentient or you are not.

Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive or experience subjectively.

Nothing even remotely close to what happened in Rhino's codex, that was just an unchained beast with no direction but to kill. 

And what happened in SD is as of yet unexplained - it could be sentience, or it could just be pure symbiotic survival instinct to protect what is in essence a part of itself.  If the Tenno dies, the Warframe essentially goes with it.  Or it could just imply that the Tenno are learning how to use Transference outside of the Somatic Link, even in the most rudimentary forms and in times of emergency.  That scene could mean alot of things that aren't yet explained.  

I mean, that really depends on how far you want to get into it. Animals are considered sentient in that they have the basic need for survival, hunger, and avoiding pain. What happened in The Second Dream wasn't fully explained, but it is a bit interesting that the Warframe opted to break the sword, as opposed to attempting to pull it out.

Going with the premise that the Operator was no longer in control of the frame (they looked just as surprised as the stalker did, and there was no transference energy visibly being channeled) we can assume that one of these potentially happened:

1. The Warframe was at least somewhat aware that Hunhow was in the blade and deemed it necessary to break the blade in half, as opposed to just pulling the sword out.

2. It acted out of self preservation, and it was also acutely aware of its circumstance (the sword in the chest) and attempting to remove the sword. This puts the Warframe intelligence above an animal at least by a little bit - a dog shot with an arrow wouldn't necessarily know to pull the arrow out (or even how to), it would lick and bite at it until it got tired. The Warframe made a deliberate action to snap the blade and I think that's noteworthy.

 

We still don't fully know what a Warframe is and what it's capable of thinking and feeling when we're not around- yes, we know it's infested tissue, but in the case of proto-frames like the one in Rhino Prime's codex, was that infested tissue once human? Would that transformed entity then be able to retain his sense of self like Ordis did? (We know the orokin love their cruel punishments)

 

Honestly, there are just too many unanswered questions to try and conclude one thing or the other whether a Warframe is a sentient being or not, so that means we should consider both options as being on the table.

 

While we're at it, there are in fact several studies showing varying levels of consciousness in animals, so saying that "you're either sentient or you're not" isn't quite accurate.

Edited by (PS4)zeroexalpha
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4 hours ago, LazerSkink said:

If he has different abilities, there's no reason to call him "Excalibur".

Nothing's confirmed, but that doesn't necessarily have to be true.

It's the same as how Gaslight Batman:

Gaslightbatman.jpg?version=21214ee14527f

is also Batman.

We'll all just have to wait for the release to see how they can satisfy everyone.

I will definitely be disappointed if it is just another Excalibur with a different look, especially if they are gonna do the same for the other Umbras, but I do understand that the non-Founders want another Excalibur, so I am sure after so many years of holding back info on this quest and Umbra frames, DE must have at the very least thought of something that can satisfy everyone.

I mean there are so many ideas in this thread alone and a number of them will satisfy all parties, if DE just releases a quest with just a reskinned Excalibur when they took so long, I will be very disappointed in them.

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10 minutes ago, OoKeNnEtHoO said:

Nothing's confirmed, but that doesn't necessarily have to be true.

It's the same as how Gaslight Batman:

is also Batman.

We'll all just have to wait for the release to see how they can satisfy everyone.

I will definitely be disappointed if it is just another Excalibur with a different look, especially if they are gonna do the same for the other Umbras, but I do understand that the non-Founders want another Excalibur, so I am sure after so many years of holding back info on this quest and Umbra frames, DE must have at the very least thought of something that can satisfy everyone.

I mean there are so many ideas in this thread alone and a number of them will satisfy all parties, if DE just releases a quest with just a reskinned Excalibur when they took so long, I will be very disappointed in them.

I wouldn't mind Excalibur Umbra having altered stats / slightly altered abilities (whether that's cosmetic or functionally) - but anything drastic like removing/changing an ability entirely would be a massive no from me.

It still needs to be recognizable as an Excal or at least toggleable between the old skills and new, you know?  If they are gonna completely change his kit then I don't think he'll have as much appeal.

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38 minutes ago, PhoenixShadowEvil said:

ALL 144 this topic is because different helmet of stalker? really? \_:clem:_/

 

One helmet do not do umbra a fact in game. 

Well he was bought up because the theory is that the Stalker is the shadow of the Operator; being an entity just like Rell's transference fracture. 

And to get Umbra, you have to accept yourself, accept the Stalker. 

Edited by CaptainStrawberry
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3 hours ago, OoKeNnEtHoO said:

if DE just releases a quest with just a reskinned Excalibur when they took so long, I will be very disappointed in them.

 

 

And that disappointment will make 0 difference in the big picture no matter how many people feel the same (not trying to minimize your opinion or anything of the sorts). Everyone will move on eventually after loads of negative feedback are piled up. People are already disappointed in them (and have been) up to now due to the simple fact it has taken this long and we're still stuck in the post teaser phase. However, once again, if he turns out to be not entirely as great as people hyped him up to be, it's still no fault of DE's.

We'll go through our usual process of vocalized disappointment, DE will take their stance, everyone gets over it in a few weeks to a few months like Hema. Whatever's in store for us is guaranteed to not appear as 3 years in the making. Best to just always keep expectations low.

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I think Umbra will be a new expansion on the system, just like the Focus system was. This will involve learning to control the 'umbra system'; why this system is attached to a different frame, I know not. Perhaps it's something like Equinox Day/Night mode or something; but I'm pretty sure that Umbra is some sort of "expansion", not just some kind of transformation or option. 

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2 hours ago, UMBRANEMESIS said:

I think Umbra will be a new expansion on the system, just like the Focus system was. This will involve learning to control the 'umbra system'; why this system is attached to a different frame, I know not. Perhaps it's something like Equinox Day/Night mode or something; but I'm pretty sure that Umbra is some sort of "expansion", not just some kind of transformation or option. 

No no and no,because DE did said from the start that its dark version from the prime,they didn't say he is dark version from operator.... and I think we need to stop guessing because this is not going anywhere. All this is lke you whont girl that you can't have,but if that girl is easy and want you from the start then its not that interesting.That's why DE need to create him in 2 something more special. If create some simple idea that we already seen then what is the point for all this....

Edited by Vlada91

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7 hours ago, UMBRANEMESIS said:

I think Umbra will be a new expansion on the system, just like the Focus system was. This will involve learning to control the 'umbra system'; why this system is attached to a different frame, I know not. Perhaps it's something like Equinox Day/Night mode or something; but I'm pretty sure that Umbra is some sort of "expansion", not just some kind of transformation or option. 

from whats stated per dev streams umbras have their own unique system , we players have coined it as "the umbra system" 

we dont know whats involved with it, but they wont be obtained the same way as primes was one thing mentioned. so maybe this lists their method of obtainment and mechanics in one 

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14 hours ago, LazerSkink said:

usual process of vocalized disappointment, DE will take their stance, everyone gets over it in a few weeks to a few months like Hema. Whatever's in store for us is guaranteed to not appear as 3 years in the making. Best to just always keep expectations low.

i just will keep my expectations realistic 

some quest with cinematic and a new mechanic [and getting umbra excal] with lots of lore goodies 

thats all i want 

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22 hours ago, (Xbox One)EternalDrk Mako said:

i just will keep my expectations realistic 

some quest with cinematic and a new mechanic [and getting umbra excal] with lots of lore goodies 

thats all i want 

I really feel the Umbra update is around the corner.. I hope so anyway. Really tired of waiting for the release now has been time I don't get excited by anything related to Warframe.

My only expectations is that the update will eventually drop, with Umbra on it and whatever more i don't care.

Edited by -Ringed-Umbra-
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1 hour ago, -Ringed-Umbra- said:

I really feel the Umbra update is around the corner.. I hope so anyway. Really tired of waiting for the release now has been time I don't get excited by anything related to Warframe.

My only expectations is that the update will eventually drop, with Umbra on it and whatever more i don't care.

:soon1:

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Just realized one thing, not sure if anybody else brought it up. With both of the previous cinematic quests we got new locations( Lua and Kuva Fortress).If we are to go by this then we may get a new location with The Sacrifice quest. Curious what it could be if that's the case.

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