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Umbra warframes [Discussion & Appreciation][*spoilers*]


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5 hours ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

You're probably right, unfortunately. I wish we had the choice of choosing who we follow, tying in with the moral choice, so that we can choose to be good guys or bad guys. "Warframe Civil War", if you will. But DE will probably play it safe and just have Lotus leave. Then we'll be stuck with AI Lotus.

The Orokin Elite didn't believe in Free Will being a good thing. Orokin Elite make decisions and have throught, everyone else stays in their castes and slaves for the Empire, dies for the Empire. If Ballas still holds to the rules of the Empire he used to enforce, I don't think working with him as anything other than his slave would occur.

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4 minutes ago, Urlan said:

The Orokin Elite didn't believe in Free Will being a good thing. Orokin Elite make decisions and have throught, everyone else stays in their castes and slaves for the Empire, dies for the Empire. If Ballas still holds to the rules of the Empire he used to enforce, I don't think working with him as anything other than his slave would occur.

The members of the various classes weren't slaves, no more than subjects of an empire, or simply a kingdom, are slaves. Swearing and upholding loyalty to an authoritarian leader is not slavery. Even still, it'd be the Tenno choosing to be Orokin warriors. I'd rather have a choice (as in, we as players have a choice), especially since we have this morality system which is meaningless right now. At the very least, I'd like to have a choice whether to continue following the Lotus or to go on our own.

Edited by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n
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1 hour ago, Urlan said:

The Orokin Elite didn't believe in Free Will being a good thing. Orokin Elite make decisions and have throught, everyone else stays in their castes and slaves for the Empire, dies for the Empire. If Ballas still holds to the rules of the Empire he used to enforce, I don't think working with him as anything other than his slave would occur.

Unless the Prime trailers give a hint that he did NOT like the way the Empire was being handled.

"Our long deathless winter has left us numb, our wasted animal within, ugly and gaunt, hibernates benead our shimmering beauty..." ~ This could be him seeing the Orokin as beings who no longer feel passion for living, to improve, to better themselves. Numb people dont move forward.

He also manipulated the 7 into accepting the Crewman Project. The whole judgement, and him being ridiculated was a farce to get what he wanted.

He is in no way an Orokin "traditionalist". One theory around: Ballas has been planning the fall of the stagnant Empire for a long time, Margulis' death only motivated him further.

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2 hours ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

The members of the various classes weren't slaves, no more than subjects of an empire, or simply a kingdom, are slaves. Swearing and upholding loyalty to an authoritarian leader is not slavery. Even still, it'd be the Tenno choosing to be Orokin warriors. I'd rather have a choice (as in, we as players have a choice), especially since we have this morality system which is meaningless right now. At the very least, I'd like to have a choice whether to continue following the Lotus or to go on our own.

It is if you have no free will and no freedoms, if you are nothing but members of a caste, locked in station and ambitions, yeah you are but a slave in name. A possession to improved or discarded as shown in the Eviserator Simaris Lore entry when the Orokin Elite dismissed the lives of the other Tower survivors so readily.

Edited by Urlan
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8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I can see them subverting that. We fight Ballas, chase him off, and save Lotus and she points out that we just mounted a rescue mission and operated without her for some time. She might wind up saying something like "You don't need to rely on me anymore." At which point we probably wind up with a new guide (since it's traditional at this point), possibly of our choice, and Lotus's role could change to something else. That'd be a nice way to finish, given that the present arc seems to be a bildungsroman of sorts. We've come of age, and no longer need our mother to lay our path, even if we can still go to her for help along it.

This sounds promising, but in my mind, the half of us that are sad/mad that the Lotus left will be even more so by the outcome, while those of us that were happy will rejoice.

In my mind, since this is supposed to be the last installment in this first trilogy, there might be some kind of arc here that is supposed to follow a common theme. 

Like the Thor trilogy in the MCU, the first movie starts with Thor learning what it is to be a leader, to be worthy of wielding power. In the second, Thor more or less learns that while his power is great, he is not invincible, and needs to be ready to let go of things important to him if he is to be a good leader one day. (And also not to be like his father and completely disregard all advice and suggestions put in by others) In the last movie, Thor's abilities and lessons become extremely important. He loses his abilities for a time in the loss of Mjolnir and learns to draw power in a different way. He loses many things close to him and is put in charge of what remains of Asgard. He uses his lessons learned in the first and second movies to make the right calls and use his power in the right way. (The soundtrack even conveys this. The original Thor theme is re-used towards the end. It's a callback to the ending scene in the first Thor when he's talking to Odin about being king of Asgard.)

I think that this cinematic trilogy could be similar. In The Second Dream, we find out who we are. We are more or less newborn (in the sense of a child). In The War Within, we learn how to use our power and we get to decide what we want to use it for. (in our choices throughout we quest, we decide whether or not we kill the adults or protect the other kids and such.) We begin to mature, but everyone still calls us a child. My guess is that in The Sacrifice we will reach full maturity in power and possibly even lose our title of child. While the Lotus was there in The Second Dream to help us, she was only partially present for The War Within, and we learned what it was to act on our own. I will guess that in The Sacrifice, if the Lotus decides that we are ready to move out of the home and operate on our own, she won't be leading us anymore. From what I can tell in The Apostasy Prologue and other teasers we are having, it's going to be rather emotionally challenging for her, possibly even scarring. I wouldn't be surprised if she chooses to rest in peace knowing that the system is safe in the hands of her children. 

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1 hour ago, Kaotyke said:

Unless the Prime trailers give a hint that he did NOT like the way the Empire was being handled.

"Our long deathless winter has left us numb, our wasted animal within, ugly and gaunt, hibernates benead our shimmering beauty..." ~ This could be him seeing the Orokin as beings who no longer feel passion for living, to improve, to better themselves. Numb people dont move forward.

He also manipulated the 7 into accepting the Crewman Project. The whole judgement, and him being ridiculated was a farce to get what he wanted.

He is in no way an Orokin "traditionalist". One theory around: Ballas has been planning the fall of the stagnant Empire for a long time, Margulis' death only motivated him further.

Yeah, Ballas definitely shows some discontent about his fellows; but he is part of the Council of Seven, Executor Ballas; he is the most prominent member of the ruling council that we know of so far; and while he might like twisting the rules to his favor, he didn't seem to have any care for ordering the Crewmen Project Archimedian Disintegrated before letting in the Sentient Project Archimedian and playing his follows to authorize their authorization and use in building the Solar Rails to Tau Ceti. It shows he has no love even of his own fellow Executors and even seems to view the rules he is sworn to uphold as things for him to bend. That said, we see nothing that suggested that he cared for others, or wanted them to have freedom of sorts outside Archimedian Margulis.

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13 minutes ago, KelsierSurvivor said:

My guess is that in The Sacrifice we will reach full maturity in power and possibly even lose our title of child. While the Lotus was there in The Second Dream to help us, she was only partially present for The War Within, and we learned what it was to act on our own. I will guess that in The Sacrifice, if the Lotus decides that we are ready to move out of the home and operate on our own, she won't be leading us anymore. From what I can tell in The Apostasy Prologue and other teasers we are having, it's going to be rather emotionally challenging for her, possibly even scarring. I wouldn't be surprised if she chooses to rest in peace knowing that the system is safe in the hands of her children. 

That's kind of what I was trying to suggest, that Lotus will have a much more hands-off approach. Sorry if I was a bit unclear.

But yeah, I don't really think Lotus is properly going away. For two reasons really. First off, how would they write a story without one of the most fundamental characters? Given how rarely we speak in quests, even some of the bigger ones like Chains of Harrow, our Tenno's character is pretty much reserved for Cinematics. It'd be like killing off the Ghost in Destiny, or Navi in Ocarina of Time. They're our voices, as is the Lotus. The second is that... well, Hidden Messages, Lotus's character quest isn't a requirement. Sure, we can do it whilst she's off with Ballas, but even so, there's only so far one can bend the lore. I don't imagine Ordis would keep on mimicking her if she died or was lost to us forever. It'd just be in poor taste. So having Lotordis show up for Hidden Messages, a major character moment when she's dead, functionally or literally? Yeah, that's not gonna fly. Same goes for the other quests.

However, after some further thinking, I believe I may have figured out what she might wind up being. Our comms person. No longer in charge, but still helping us in a more hands-off way. That way, she could still show up for quests set before and after, still being an active role in the story, but much less extreme. Actual mission guidance duties would probably be done by Ordis normally (stuff like "Alarms have been triggered." or "They took our tower!") with perhaps some other lines being done by our Tenno, like pre-mission briefs being switched for our Tenno musing about the specific mission type at hand. Perhaps Lotus would become accessible for some new system related to communication, perhaps mercenary work? And there I go speculating wildly again, so I'll stop.

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1 minute ago, (XB1)Kavriel said:

They did hint way back at working on an Orokin hacking interface instead of using the Corpus, and unique Orokin enemies like the maws and sentinels or even Dax instead of just Corrupted would be great.

Yeah forgot about it, remember we had to submit hacking mini-game ideas in DC. That stuff was long time ago.

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I just noticed something after replaying the Apostasy prologue again, it might just be a minor detail but during the cutscene, Ballas' eyes didn't glow and his voice was also more...natural. I don't know if it's just there for the wow-effect that it's different in the teaser but...it seems a little bit weird.

In the Teaser, Ballas sounds more like the man in the wall or Hunhow, rather than...well, himself.

Edited by DJ_Vauban
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3 minutes ago, DJ_Vauban said:

I just noticed something after replaying the Apostasy prologue again, it might just be a minor detail but during the cutscene, Ballas' eyes didn't glow and his voice was also more...natural. I don't know if it's just there for the wow-effect that it's different in the teaser but...it seems a little bit weird.

In the Teaser, Ballas sounds more like the man in the wall or Hunhow, rather than...well, himself.

Exactly what I said to my friends.

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)AntiCaesar said:

Exactly what I said to my friends.

Actually, the more I compare the two voices, it doesn't even sound like the voice actor they used in the Apostasy prologue and such. It's not just added effects, the voice itself seems different, maybe it's just me

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1 minute ago, DJ_Vauban said:

Actually, the more I compare the two voices, it doesn't even sound like the voice actor they used in the Apostasy prologue and such. It's not just added effects, the voice itself seems different, maybe it's just me

Compare that to the prime trailers. Very different.

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19 minutes ago, DJ_Vauban said:

I just noticed something after replaying the Apostasy prologue again, it might just be a minor detail but during the cutscene, Ballas' eyes didn't glow and his voice was also more...natural. I don't know if it's just there for the wow-effect that it's different in the teaser but...it seems a little bit weird.

In the Teaser, Ballas sounds more like the man in the wall or Hunhow, rather than...well, himself.

Its the same as Lotus sounds in transmitions. Sounds much more natural in person.

Also, a theory is that the teaser site is from Subject 9's PoV, so he is seeing this inhuman voice and hearing those glowing gold eyes. I know what I said

As if looking at a god.

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10 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Its the same as Lotus sounds in transmitions. Sounds much more natural in person.

Also, a theory is that the teaser site is from Subject 9's PoV, so he is seeing this inhuman voice and hearing those glowing gold eyes. I know what I said

As if looking at a god.

If it turns out that the Ballas in the teaser is actually not the Ballas we saw or it is but he's possessed by something, I'm calling it right now lol

Edited by DJ_Vauban
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35 minutes ago, DJ_Vauban said:

I just noticed something after replaying the Apostasy prologue again, it might just be a minor detail but during the cutscene, Ballas' eyes didn't glow and his voice was also more...natural. I don't know if it's just there for the wow-effect that it's different in the teaser but...it seems a little bit weird.

In the Teaser, Ballas sounds more like the man in the wall or Hunhow, rather than...well, himself.

We will have to wait and see.

But it is important to note that DE did admit that they did rush that quest to bring out as a big bombshell. So they might have left out a lot of detail during the initial making of that quest like the glowing eyes. 

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24 minutes ago, DJ_Vauban said:

If it turns out that the Ballas in the teaser is actually not the Ballas we saw or it is but he's possessed by something, I'm calling it right now lol

That actually can mean nothing but a change on his model and voice, if they decided that they should look badass then they really did it now and they got my attention, before when he looked normal I was not giving too much of credit to him.

Or maybe when he gets mad he turns into a God like thing.

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49 minutes ago, DJ_Vauban said:

If it turns out that the Ballas in the teaser is actually not the Ballas we saw or it is but he's possessed by something, I'm calling it right now lol

I think he's possessed by the Man in the Wall, or maybe he is the Man in the Wall.

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On 2018-06-06 at 11:15 PM, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

Is it only 1-2 hours?

I mean there is no official confirmation but its safe to assume that its going to be 1 to 2 hours, 2 and a half at most. anything longer and it risks being a tedious quest.

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What, they're not going to suprise us with Venus AND Lua landscapes complete with npc quest givers to make us run errands all over the system while we struggle to crack open secrets and complete the story, before we get sent off to the Tau system with a fleet of Umbras and nothing else in a cliffhanger ending we have to wait twelve years to see the next part of?

 

I'm so dissapointed.

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41 minutes ago, Midrib said:

I mean there is no official confirmation but its safe to assume that its going to be 1 to 2 hours, 2 and a half at most. anything longer and it risks being a tedious quest.

Anything longer is already another game, it's not worth doing quests that goes longer than 1 with max of 3h long if it's free game, they are not giving it as paid DLC, anything longer is too much of a risk not because "it will be boring" but because if they fail to deliver it, it will be too much time wasted and money as well (that's the reason big game studios don't like to fail, and when they do they are likely to close their doors)

Edited by -Ringed-Umbra-
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