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(XB1)EternalDrk Mako

Umbra warframes [Discussion & Appreciation][*spoilers*]

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56 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

Before I answer, I'd like to get in between you and Spirit, discussing Valkyr. With umbral mods you do make her stronger, without them I wouldn't be able to reach 250+ strength for more armor and attack speed on my EW build. By extension her Exalted is also stronger.

1) Duration as a stat is not on the same level of HP/Strength and there are a more mods for duration and range than strength and efficiency. Duration isn't even that unique in function, since if we look at it in a broad sense, it reduces the energy expenditure in time, close to what efficiency does.

Duration is not needed on that many frames, while any frame using either vitality + fiber or vitality + intensify will benefit and those are quite a few more.

2) There's no instance where you use intensify + secrets. It's a perfectly possible scenario. Here is how the power creep works:

Switching a build with vitality, intensify and secrets for UI and UV leaves you with +1% strength, +110% hp and a mod slot.

After all, you can forma all you want, but there are only 8 mod slots.

So overall, not only do you end up with higher stats, but you even get to put another mod in.

3) Survivability is already wanted, apart from the rare Ivara/Octavia 4h cheese builds, I've yet to see on the forums a build that doesn't have at least one survivability mod and is meant for above level 50.

4) My logic is simple. In the current state of the game we solo Eidolons and Orbs, last as long as we can stave of boredom in Arbitrations and Eso and this is done with not much effort involved. This game (thankfully) doesn't offer the same old hamster wheel every 3 months, to artificially prolong it's "late game" with bigger numbers, its it tries to add different activities. Therefore we don't need more power.

Also a good RPG "increases" power by adding diversity to your play, not by giving you bigger numbers, as the latest AAA titles leave you to believe.

You can reach 250+ strength easily on any frame and even go far beyond that. The only scenario where you wouldn't be able to would be if you slot vitality/fiber which doesn't make you stronger just tankier as previously said. That extend to the exalted which you usually don't use for damage anyway

1) Duration is exactly on the same level as strength, HP and armor are subpar stat increase, it is directly linked to your ability to play the game, it isn't mandatory or that important at all. Except maybe on some specific frame who relies on HP to do their things but that's still niche. Duration is much more generalized as a needed stat and primed continuity even more generalized as a needed mod for fleeting. 

2) Yeah, going by that logic there's a scenario where everyone use ammo case as well, that's still a bad choice in every sense of the term. I don't get your argument. I don't even know what you are trying to address here relative to what I said.

3) On these forums, maybe. I mean it's a forum where someone tried to argue that the only valuable arcane is arcane guardian. Clearly there's a trend for survivability here. But the reality is that mathematically it doesn't matter one bit, heck I did my sorties with an unmoded excal and a braton for the lols. Survivablity is just handicaping you in this game, it prevents you from clearing areas a lot faster than you would without it. Not saying that it isn't an interesting stat, I mean I have frames with umbral mods because it's fun but it doesn't make these frames stronger at all. I am just slower and take more damage for free and that's I think an interesting bit. HP is fun, not objectively strong. Hence there's no reason not to give more access to it. 

4) That's your opinion and I respect that but I don't agree with the viability of such thing. Numbers shows clearly that warframe gain new players once that activity comes but fails to retain player base because there's actually nothing to retain them. That lack of "hamster wheel" is part of that issue. That's the objective truth. Furthermore the rest of my argument already explain it isn't a boost in power.

AAA games reduce grinds and make a game easy to pull as many casuals in. That doesn't make it good, just profitable financially. (and none of my suggestions goes against that)

Edited by Shelusine

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I play Umbral Saryn. With 3 umbral bonus she has 1337 hp. Clearly she is ment to be played this way.

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2 hours ago, Shelusine said:

No, you can't. You can make a tankier valk, this is a very different concept. Same for inaros and all the mentioned frames. Theses are frames who as I mentioned benefits from health and armor in their gameplay but the stat isn't mandatory and thus doesn't make them "stronger". You wont have an oberon or an inaros and even less a valkyr wipe a map faster because of those, that just not a thing mathematically. Arguably you last longer in endless but who cares ?

 

I can build a Valk with similar strength to my Umbral build but it will have more downsides like efficiency, duration and range because it can't make use of a "free" transient fortitude whose cost is not to the usability of the frame but to the total capacity of a frame.  Also, Valk as a melee specialist wants health and armor so she can take a hit because she does not have damage mitigation outside of a massive armor poll giving her the second highest EHP before abilities.    There is not a Valk build in the game that does not use heath and armor unless you are building for her 4 and you would still use some health and armor so that you have time to regain your energy.  

You argue that it does not increase the power of a nidus, Oberon, inaros, Valk because survivability does not = damage but for tanky frames survivability does equal damage because it means that I can walk toward the enemy to hit them with my melee, stand there and shoot regain infinite energy form the damage dealt by my foes letting my sustain costly abilities that protect frailer DPS Frames or just deal damage more effectively.

With more health and armor, My valk can spend more time attacking and leaping into combat with a melee fed by the blood of fallen foes and not spend time swapping between her 4 and another weapon for healing.  

My Oberon has more health and more armor (from his 2,3 combo) than a non-umbral version with better efficiency and range than a comparable a build with comparable strength and again he draws strength form how long he can last not his damage output he CCs and Heal's slaying ads is not his job protection the squad is.

Same goes for inaros or nidus they don’t care about dealing damage they have guns for that they care about surviving everything the enemy can throw at them so they can group up the enemy and buff/support the team.  

As stated by @Ver1dian what the Umbral mods give are options on how to build a frame.  Gara might not need a lot of health but her 4 scales off of her armor and enemy health (infested boilers are the healthiest unit in the game) by using UI and UF I can make her 1 and 4 stronger than I without increasing the cost of her 2 (form maintenance or on cast).  Is it an optimal build, maybe I will need to look at the stats the thing is it offers more options more way to try things.  

I forsee that as more umbral fames are released we will get more umbral mods (redirection, fast deflection, stretch, and streamline are the most likely  but I would rather Umbral Rage or more umbral utility than frame ability affecting mods) you will have to choose do I want to have a cheap more specialized build or an expensive jack of all trades build.   
 

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1 hour ago, spirit_of_76 said:

 

I can build a Valk with similar strength to my Umbral build but it will have more downsides like efficiency, duration and range because it can't make use of a "free" transient fortitude whose cost is not to the usability of the frame but to the total capacity of a frame.  Also, Valk as a melee specialist wants health and armor so she can take a hit because she does not have damage mitigation outside of a massive armor poll giving her the second highest EHP before abilities.    There is not a Valk build in the game that does not use heath and armor unless you are building for her 4 and you would still use some health and armor so that you have time to regain your energy.  

You argue that it does not increase the power of a nidus, Oberon, inaros, Valk because survivability does not = damage but for tanky frames survivability does equal damage because it means that I can walk toward the enemy to hit them with my melee, stand there and shoot regain infinite energy form the damage dealt by my foes letting my sustain costly abilities that protect frailer DPS Frames or just deal damage more effectively.

With more health and armor, My valk can spend more time attacking and leaping into combat with a melee fed by the blood of fallen foes and not spend time swapping between her 4 and another weapon for healing.  

My Oberon has more health and more armor (from his 2,3 combo) than a non-umbral version with better efficiency and range than a comparable a build with comparable strength and again he draws strength form how long he can last not his damage output he CCs and Heal's slaying ads is not his job protection the squad is.

Same goes for inaros or nidus they don’t care about dealing damage they have guns for that they care about surviving everything the enemy can throw at them so they can group up the enemy and buff/support the team.  

As stated by @Ver1dian what the Umbral mods give are options on how to build a frame.  Gara might not need a lot of health but her 4 scales off of her armor and enemy health (infested boilers are the healthiest unit in the game) by using UI and UF I can make her 1 and 4 stronger than I without increasing the cost of her 2 (form maintenance or on cast).  Is it an optimal build, maybe I will need to look at the stats the thing is it offers more options more way to try things.  

I forsee that as more umbral fames are released we will get more umbral mods (redirection, fast deflection, stretch, and streamline are the most likely  but I would rather Umbral Rage or more umbral utility than frame ability affecting mods) you will have to choose do I want to have a cheap more specialized build or an expensive jack of all trades build.   
 

You'll have to show me what build you use because I don't see a scenario where it's possible. Also, melee specialists "benefits" from health and armor, it doesn't make them stronger at all as their kit already allows them to tank without any need for those stats. Valkyr 2 and 4 already allows her to perfectly tank level 200 enemies without any investment in those stats, that's already endless level which as already said no one really cares about. Also, most valk build don't use health and armor, actually even I as someone who really don't play the frame knows that. You just press 2 and spin through the level, the higher your strength, the faster it goes. Nothing can kill or harm you. Even the most used build on warframe builder agrees with that fact.

For the rest, Survivability is a comfort not a strength for tanky frame. You make it sounds like they can't walk toward their target or shoot them etc without health and armor  or that being able to stand still increase your dps which is completely wrong. Don't get me wrong it's fun but there's no difference between being mobile and non-mobile dps wise. In fact being mobile removes the need for health and armor so your dps increase by default.

So, again, no there really isn't any power creep. If anything what we learned from this discussion is that it would increase the power of players (like you I assume ?) who likes to stand still and do nothing substantial for those who already move around except adding more fun. 

Its almost been a year without umbral frame, I wouldn't expect to feature to be touched upon for a long time. (which again is my complain)

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what are you guys worry about so much?  We are getting umbra forma which we were hyped about it long ago and now they are unleashing more umbra mods so its obvious we are getting the umbra forma soon and HOPEFULLY SOON.  So everyone don't have talk about the umbra mods being massive pizza eater on our frame.

Edited by ChaoticEdge

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I wonder if it means no more Umbra frames 😕

  • Woah 1

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58 minutes ago, Ksaero said:

I wonder if it means no more Umbra frames 😕

i dunno

we were told it would be its own series, my guess this is a way to make normal primes semi useful against sentient to a degree , and if paired with paracesis they can be close enough that it wont anger dedicated prime users i think

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5 minutes ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

i dunno

we were told it would be its own series, my guess this is a way to make normal primes semi useful against sentient to a degree , and if paired with paracesis they can be close enough that it wont anger dedicated prime users i think

Where is my dedicated Volt Umbra?😏

I want my Sentient Nuker while my Operator is running around swinging the  Paracesis...whoops?

Edited by (PS4)Silverback73
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2 minutes ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

dunno but i have my dedicated excal umbra  🤔

Don’t be a jerk, Mak.

We know YOUR wish came true...

I want my Alt-Discharge Sentient Nuker while my Operator is running around swinging the  Paracesis...whoops?

Shouldn’t have said that???

Edited by (PS4)Silverback73

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Just now, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Don’t be a jerk, Mak.

We know YOUR wish came true...

I want my Alt-Discharge Sentient Nuker while my Operator is running around swinging the  Paracesis...whoops?

Shouldn’t have said that???

heh sorry 

mine will wield the zenistar with dynasty skin 

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14 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Where is my dedicated Volt Umbra?😏

I want my Sentient Nuker while my Operator is running around swinging the  Paracesis...whoops?

#VoltSux

#NoVolt4U

  • Woah 1

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

#VoltSux

#NoVolt4U

From the guy who convinced himself he could make Ash relevant by trying to mimic a flying mouse.

Run along....Go play “Seeking Shuriken”.☺️

#tasteslikeash

Edited by (PS4)Silverback73
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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

From the guy who convinced himself he could make Ash relevant by trying to mimic a flying mouse.

Run along....Go play “Seeking Shuriken”.☺️

#tasteslikeash

Ash > Volt

Bat Ash >>>>>> everything.

Spoiler

2cVx.gif

 

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Just now, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Ash > Volt

Bat Ash >>>>>> everything.

  Hide contents

2cVx.gif

 

I'm sorry, but dapper time lord has some words for you.

  • Like 1

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Just now, Loza03 said:

Image result for 200 mad gif

They already made “your” Umbra.   He casts his alt-4 once and disappears forever.  He gets permanent immunity to everything and squadmates rejoice.

WIN/WIN!

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