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(XB1)EternalDrk Mako

Umbra warframes [Discussion & Appreciation][*spoilers*]

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Thread update: due to some things maybe not being clear I have updated the megathread with new info and did a cleanup of already confirmed content in regards to Excalibur Umbra. 

  • the FAQ now also explains method and path to get Excalibur umbra along with QOL updates 
  • that said if my count is correct we are approaching 800 pages at 350 milemark (congrats to all participants) 
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Okay at least you are right they used plural for "umbras". But at least, I don't think you can say it's too late to talk about that because in the last updates notes they said "they have no plans yet" so that means that's not acutally definitive. And I'm sure that, if you take the fact that they took a very long time to release the 1st Umbra it also means that their statement has a bit evolved since then. Anyway, I would not try to argue about this if I was alone to have that feeling with it. Also, since DE is a company that looks how its community likes its contents. I think you understand why I am trying to give a voice to thoses players who don't like the idea of getting a 3rd variant of warframe in their inventory with nearly no difference with the orignal ones as an invantory fodder or making other vairants rather irrelevant.

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38 minutes ago, Rathalio said:

Okay at least you are right they used plural for "umbras". But at least, I don't think you can say it's too late to talk about that because in the last updates notes they said "they have no plans yet" so that means that's not acutally definitive. And I'm sure that, if you take the fact that they took a very long time to release the 1st Umbra it also means that their statement has a bit evolved since then. Anyway, I would not try to argue about this if I was alone to have that feeling with it. Also, since DE is a company that looks how its community likes its contents. I think you understand why I am trying to give a voice to thoses players who don't like the idea of getting a 3rd variant of warframe in their inventory with nearly no difference with the orignal ones as an invantory fodder or making other vairants rather irrelevant.

Specifically" umbras are coming to global starting with Excalibur "was what was said, the intent behind it was clear, even steve stating he wanted it to become its own thing which it has in many respects.

Now as I see it, there is being constructive and being negative the two arnt the same, being negatively constructive is a good thing as it makes us look to whats needed to remedy the issues at hand, the devils advocate as it were coined to further make things better. And as you have said de does look at its community for input feedback and how things are taken. But then we also can have a small but very vocal minority try to push the majority desires away , which then hurts the game as a majority.  which i dont think either side really wants.

On to the current matter at hand, one could say that having More umbras is bad due to having to put so much effort into a non umbra  (aka power creep) and further wasted time on said forming, and developing a frame that now gets a 3rd variant, wasting their time working towards that umbra comparable state. 

to counter this when said things have been done, de usually compensates players with forma being given or other compensation for said players who have done so 

an example would be the frame re-wokrs or weapon changes were formas and even plat has been given to compensate those losses in past issues.

another concept that can be stated is having the de team further divided to work on umbras, open worlds, qol, new content, ect ect will cause slower production and release of content that we have seen. to counter this as from what I recal they hired a few other studios to assist with completing the sacrifice as initially that was shevled around the time of the second dream as they had no plans for how it was to come about and had to developed the game further to were they could incorporate it, this lead up to 3+ years of no excal umbra and then de delivered it last year in the summer. the feedback overall that ive seen with those using or gaining an umbra is rather positive. the main gripes i heard were cannot remove this polarity, or cannot make this polarity on non umbra frame (solved with umbra froma being added) , or that normal frames have to use operators only to nuke sentient buffs (paracisis was added as the 1st melee weapon over rank 30 and the ability to harm sentient and debuf with 5+ forma) but overall past that its been pretty positive 

and as to the they have no current plans, that was why they are discussing it as geoff has stated , and as you've said some do not want a 3rd of the same frame they have, its seen as a negative, but then again, i have more or less seen and discussed this for 4+ years now and the amount of times can be viewed literally in the old and new threads , it was relatively few and far between. that does not mean however i dont recognize my fellows strife or issue with this.

there is always going to be two sides at minimum on a subject i recognize this and accept it. i recognize that but i can see were de has made an effort to make it so primes/vanillas and umbras can be on equal footing in combat and in builds due to the steps they have taken to address both concerns, as im sure they will continue to do so.

the MR fodder concept is nothing new, weve had it with plenty of weapons , vanilla, prisma, prime,vandal, mara, wraith , its not like that concept dosnt already exist  in game , and usually DE makes it a point that we have to work to get those over their normal counterparts

what I see as a positive in the 3rd variant may not be seen as good, but it provides an "option" to those who dont like the other provided variants ,so we cannot ignore those who feel that way and solely focus on our own agendas as de has to look at this from all perspectives. other players do want more then just the basic or the prime, id say this thread testifies to that having lasted so many years and having people state as such that they cant wait till an umbra of their own favorite comes out

Players as a whole want a variety and customization, this has always been a big thing to players, its why fashion frame is what it is

as i see it the umbras allow for this expansion of customization and to play style. we can choose if we want to develop our primes to be more like umbras as thats a choice by us the players or simply use the umbra variant as it were to play. I will not focus on vanilla for this as this is more of a duality of nature, but lets review

Spoiler

as we have it "currently" a prime frame (death orb passive) + paracisis(5 forma) +umbra forma can be equivalent to and Umbra frame (sentient debuf passive power) +forma

meaning they serve the purposes we have built them up to aka fighting in game with maximize potential , either way players can  choose to fight has a valid capability and a purpose in squad

now lets look at operator (warrior mode with each) 

prime (invulnerable + static)  , when returned to it has same hp or stats when you left it 

umbra(vulnerable + active) <limited power use and combat> if damaged in this state when  you return to it you will still have the damage when it was ai (classic double edged sword)

 

the fact that remains is it is a player by player choice then to use or even work on said variants , though given that we only have a prime and a vanilla of some frames it means we are more or less urged to work on one or the other. but that is still a choice we make ,no one forced us to use a prime or vanilla frame, as the degree of the stat changes between those two is already not big as both are close enough combat wise to begin with. as for mastery rank that stops really playing a role at mr 16 as that iirc is the max rivens require, and as we have plenty of weapons and frames as it is to get to 20+ i dont see it as begin a bad thing then if umbras provide us with another avenue to get to the higher MR ranks 

given that, then one could argue if then the umbra provides a difference in ability and stats its not then the exact same frame, even cosmetically they are different so they are not the same in potential customization as there will be differences in how we change the appearance. so this can provide a variety in terms of building our frames for combat

these differences and changes between the three are what I see as a good thing and a reason that not only are umbras needed to further flush out this , but as a whole all three are needed so we have a choice in which one we choose. 

Image result for tri yin yang

given that even our operators have three choices is it not then fair to say giving the frames 3 types is a fair methodology? good, evil , neutral.

so then by having three we are provided more paths for us the players to enjoy, its not forced onto us but allows us different paths

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I really appreciate your response, it's really constructive. Then, I agree with you on many points and as I see you allready understood what I was trying to enlight.

In fact, the main issue I have and some others have too with this is : If umbras are a new variant with just a bit changes in term of stats and little upgrades on their abilities espacially in fighting sentients, don't you think in a way it's no longer a choice between primes and umbras but it becomes more about the fact that Umbras will work better with the upcoming updates on sentient with "the new war" etc.

That's what fears me the most, I totally agree with you and love the diversity in this game but when I see how this game works, it seems that it will push players to use this new type of warframe instead of considering their counterparts and it seams unappropriate and artificial. (I know we will be able to do kinda the same work without Umbras on sentients but in fact Umbras remain a smarter choice to fight upcoming sentient. If they continue in this direction, since it seems to be an answer to those who cry their "Rhino umbra", "Inaros umbra", I really feel like it will be badly thought warframes here just to fulfill some players fantasms)

For me, more Umbras will not be a problem only if two main issues are solved :

- It gives new elements of gameplay and things to explore and learn about in the game and significatives changes on stats to make them push them to a new gameplay* (even weapon vairiants are most of the time really different in term of builds and so in terms of usage, or just brings a weapon back to the meta but that last thing isn't comparable to warframes since they must all be playable)

- It never became a better choice than their prime/original counterparts in general game usage (it will not be perfect but it will be ok at least if they are a bit better for upcoming quest again sentients but it needs to stay only with quests ! but no meta : "umbras only works better" in the game should ever exists)
 

*a coarse example : with Inaros, why not, making his umbra be less tanky and more oriented on his abilities with maybe some tweaks in it and health halved ?

PS : Sorry have I am not as clear as you are or as consistant, english isn't my main language.

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With so many new frames coming into Warframe there has been a decline in lore to frames. I personally enjoyed the lore and quest for getting new frames; In my opinion Umbra frames should only come into through quest even if that means having to wait a while longer for each frame it would be worth it. 

Does anyone else agree?

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I think that defeats Excal Umbra's uniqueness. In my opinion, there should only be one umbra frame although I would like to have that scarf available as an attachment.

More umbra frames would just dilute the game as we already have primes.

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I would like overall more lore and quests for them but as thigns show i doubt it by now, they scrapped quests for Garuda and Baruuk as example and they were suppsoed ot have one each, i slowly loose hope for more lore honestly with the new content we get at times like Nightwave, so far it feels just latched onto the game, another Stalker wannabe with only story so far he is a escaped prisoner from soem prsion we never heard about and for soem reason is after us instead of the ones who imprisoned him, Nora is another Lotus wananbe which i was glad we had her gone for awhile considering her doings etc.

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Please no umbra frames.. it'll kill the story behind Excal..

That's why we got umbra forma instead, plus maybe new umbra mods.. I prefer it that way..

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DE has planed to release other Umbra Frames, they just dont know how yet, specially because they have to make them make sense lore wise, BUT, unlike Primes, only a few Frames will get Umbra variants, probably the first frames the game had (Like Ash, Trinity, Rhino, Ember, etc...).

So, pretty sure if Steve goes trough whit adding more Umbras, they will have to come in small sized mini quests like the "Prologues" explaining their existence and why we should care.

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I’m of the opinion that we shouldn’t get any more Umbra frames. Excalibur is a thing because non-founders did not have access to a Prime upgrade for him, but releasing any more then that would defeat the purpose of Primes. Especially now that we have Umbral Forma.

 

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Seriously. Does anyone else remember the long and agonizing umbra hype before Umbra Excalibur actually released?

We always knew that it was going to be a new line of frames, like Prime variants, not just one.

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5 hours ago, Rathalio said:

I really appreciate your response, it's really constructive. Then, I agree with you on many points and as I see you allready understood what I was trying to enlight.

In fact, the main issue I have and some others have too with this is : If umbras are a new variant with just a bit changes in term of stats and little upgrades on their abilities espacially in fighting sentients, don't you think in a way it's no longer a choice between primes and umbras but it becomes more about the fact that Umbras will work better with the upcoming updates on sentient with "the new war" etc.

That's what fears me the most, I totally agree with you and love the diversity in this game but when I see how this game works, it seems that it will push players to use this new type of warframe instead of considering their counterparts and it seams unappropriate and artificial. (I know we will be able to do kinda the same work without Umbras on sentients but in fact Umbras remain a smarter choice to fight upcoming sentient. If they continue in this direction, since it seems to be an answer to those who cry their "Rhino umbra", "Inaros umbra", I really feel like it will be badly thought warframes here just to fulfill some players fantasms)

For me, more Umbras will not be a problem only if two main issues are solved :

- It gives new elements of gameplay and things to explore and learn about in the game and significatives changes on stats to make them push them to a new gameplay* (even weapon vairiants are most of the time really different in term of builds and so in terms of usage, or just brings a weapon back to the meta but that last thing isn't comparable to warframes since they must all be playable)

- It never became a better choice than their prime/original counterparts in general game usage (it will not be perfect but it will be ok at least if they are a bit better for upcoming quest again sentients but it needs to stay only with quests ! but no meta : "umbras only works better" in the game should ever exists)
 

*a coarse example : with Inaros, why not, making his umbra be less tanky and more oriented on his abilities with maybe some tweaks in it and health halved ?

PS : Sorry have I am not as clear as you are or as consistant, english isn't my main language.

to the ps- no worries i understand your meanings, ive talked with many across the globe on this subject ,so is all good : ) i do this layout so i can be clear

from my perspective i think the primes and the umbras do serve a purpose separate from one another (example)

Spoiler

lets review the advantage and disadvantages of the two types (prime & umbra) as we understand them to be clear on capabilities 

primes : death orb passive

-advantage in void area or when death orb present (extra energy to self and squad ) 

-not dependent on operator for combat beside sentient debuff (1 shot void to debuff all) (or paracesis melee)

-invulnerability of frame in operator mode

Umbras : Ai & debuff power

-advantage in sentient combat 

-advantage AI : aide in operator combat

-disadvantage AI : frame is vulnerable to damage

 

so with that in mind  the actual dependency is when and were these are used , by which i refer to how you combat sentient or even daily use 

for sentient the umbras as we understand Excalibur can fight with the operator, but doing so puts both at risk , so unless you have built up your operator in focus, amps ect, well then this mode is not very useful to gameplay as a whole as its a vulnerable state.

wereas with a prime you just quickly pop in as operator and beam the sentient then go back to frame , in-actuality the only risk is to operator and even debuffing frames hp if static occurs but that also accounts for umbras as well ( umbra damage while in ai+ void static damage) if operator damaged is even more of a risk to an umbra type then to a typical prime (vanilla) so umbras have a drawback to equate to this as in umbra frame you can use a power to debuff to minimize this risk but are still at risk for damage, so id say this in average combat is equatable 

now if you reflect that sentient are naturally debuffed in void missions , void is toxic to them, then primes have a greater advantage in the void against them then even umbras

by that, they can get lots of energy and not worry about sentient debuffing damage at all  so they have a clear advantage in the void 

its more of a front line and rear guard concept youd see in a rpg game a attacker and a defender , home field and off field advantages 

so then my suggestion is have a balance of umbras and primes in a squad to make this work in combat

now to address the concepts of the fears you have brought forth (which are understandable) 

in regards to stats the Excalibur (prime& umbra) are the same , this was i think a special case as umbra is the generic upgrade we can obtain while founders prime is equivalent so not to make umbra eclipse their capability. on release of the 1st umbra Excalibur prime was buffed to match to bring a final equalization to founders and general players combat capability. so we are all equal and that ends the plight of a direct upgrade to Excalibur

in contrast we already have the other primes available , so i think then that the stats of FUTURE umbras will reflect differently to make break that very "meta" concept we have on said frames , making us rethink the overall build and combat layout of each compared to the normal counterparts 

that way those crying for a umbra variant dont just get a different look, but overall a different style of play which I think is the main draw to differences in variants to begin with , i have no confirmation of this however , but i think on reflection of why Excalibur umbra and prime needed to be equal is why the next set of umbras can be different.

as an example ember umbra getting more armor but less energy to then maybe force the ember umbra builds to get more creative on survivability /CC and less damage /range 

making it so on comparison they are equivalent but have different stats was a very much talked on desire in the thread , as I dont think we would want to replicate the same meta builds as that is rather deconstructive to build variety it was designed to expand 

Just now, (XB1)Fat Gregory said:

Seriously. Does anyone else remember the long and agonizing umbra hype before Umbra Excalibur actually released?

We always knew that it was going to be a new line of frames, like Prime variants, not just one.

it was a big hype but there even then were those who were skeptical wed get Excalibur umbra let alone a knew variant line , even when Excalibur U dropped that skepticism has still resided  so the confirmation in 125 being more will come -minus lore implications - is a good reconfirmation to the player base 

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1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

They’re working on some way to give lore to the new frames.

stares in Garuda lore

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6 hours ago, Sir_Carl said:

I think that defeats Excal Umbra's uniqueness. In my opinion, there should only be one umbra frame although I would like to have that scarf available as an attachment.

More umbra frames would just dilute the game as we already have primes.

Not really. Even among Umbra frames, Excalibur would retain it's uniqueness due to being the subject of it's own major story quest, plus the fact that, in all likelihood, DE won't be giving future Umbras improved stats over the defaults as a way to differentiate them from the Primes. Primes get better stats, more polarities, and death orb passive, Umbras get altered moves, not a statue passive, and built-in Umbral Polarity.

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20 minutes ago, Kerberos-3 said:

Not really. Even among Umbra frames, Excalibur would retain it's uniqueness due to being the subject of it's own major story quest, plus the fact that, in all likelihood, DE won't be giving future Umbras improved stats over the defaults as a way to differentiate them from the Primes. Primes get better stats, more polarities, and death orb passive, Umbras get altered moves, not a statue passive, and built-in Umbral Polarity.

well excal prime & umbra stats are equal i think that was required to equate founders and general player base to be on equal footing with that upgrade

while more umbras could have stat and power variations is not out of the question 

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22 minutes ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

well excal prime & umbra stats are equal i think that was required to equate founders and general player base to be on equal footing with that upgrade

while more umbras could have stat and power variations is not out of the question 

It isn't, but I'm not hopeful on that. Plus, there aren't going to be a whole lot of Umbras, maybe the first 16 frames if we are lucky.

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4 hours ago, Kerberos-3 said:

It isn't, but I'm not hopeful on that. Plus, there aren't going to be a whole lot of Umbras, maybe the first 16 frames if we are lucky.

they never have given a number count or plans (cause they winging it ?)

de did state that it would be more limited then primes (every frame gets one) 

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And when we look at the releases it would also take forever to release umbra versions for all the frames. Even primes are going to take forever to even get to this point of currently released regular frames considering that primes release about every 3 months.

Maybe they should take time to review the whole release order thing and try optimize it too. Maybe slow down with releases of regular frames, especially when we consider that some of the later frames felt like they weren't thought out well entirely and had to be reworked or adjusted. It would be of benefit as they would have more time to work with ideas.

As for Umbra's no clue how they will be implemented, quests would be nice but don't see it happening if they want to make it a regular release alike to primes, however lore is something that should be present at least.

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33 minutes ago, (PS4)reddragonhrcro said:

And when we look at the releases it would also take forever to release umbra versions for all the frames. Even primes are going to take forever to even get to this point of currently released regular frames considering that primes release about every 3 months.

Maybe they should take time to review the whole release order thing and try optimize it too. Maybe slow down with releases of regular frames, especially when we consider that some of the later frames felt like they weren't thought out well entirely and had to be reworked or adjusted. It would be of benefit as they would have more time to work with ideas.

As for Umbra's no clue how they will be implemented, quests would be nice but don't see it happening if they want to make it a regular release alike to primes, however lore is something that should be present at least.

though umbras could be released out of order if you think about it

we could get an umbra for some frames before a prime is unveiled 

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Posted (edited)

There was some talk in the last devstream about new Umbra Warframes. How they will be gained would present an opportunity.

The Void, Lua and Kuva Fortress are currently underutilized. Could it be that we could open vaults in the Void/Derelict/Lua/Kuva Fortress with void keys from Orokin Vaults in order to gain said Umbra parts?

Im not worried about Umbra weapons and think there really shouldn't be any [or they should be extremely rare like the Skiajati and only obtainable in quests/special events] but nonetheless Umbra frames have the opportunity to reinvigorate [for the most part imo] these over-looked areas after people have stopped farming argon crystals/farmed Kavat DNA/killed sentients/farmed Kuva.

Edited by Ascythian
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4 minutes ago, -AiLuoLi- said:

More quest like The Sacrifice, less mindless grind.

Just...let’s ease off static board game play as a metaphor for death...in a cinematic medium.

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