Morrow Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 On 2019-07-21 at 6:03 PM, (XB1)D00M INCARNATE said: All warframes are people. I don't believe that is the case for most warframes, especially the mass-produced models. I think they're produced from semi-mindless blanks with little sense of self, which is why they hardly do anything outside of an operator's influence. On 2019-07-21 at 6:19 PM, evilChair said: And if the individual idle poses, the Helminth's separate reactions to Nidus and the Operator Helminth's reaction to Nidus differing from that to the operator may be due to it simply not knowing that he is our puppet, It seems infested are confused by the warframe's rejection of them. As Lephantis put it, "Why do you destroy us? We are your flesh," implying they are aware of the warframe's infested nature, but not their role as puppets. Perhaps the original Nidus possessed some sense of self, but I think it would suit the Orokin more that their mass-produced demi-god war machines are as docile and inert as possible when not under the influence of an operator. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)D00M INCARNATE Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 11 hours ago, Morrow said: I don't believe that is the case for most warframes, especially the mass-produced models. I think they're produced from semi-mindless blanks with little sense of self, which is why they hardly do anything outside of an operator's influence. I could be remembering it wrong, it's been a while. I thought the helminth was used to turn lots of people into the warframes (mass produced or not). I always thought it made for a good concept for why we have different skins for the same warframes. Different people. Different outcomes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Viveeeh Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 hour ago, (XB1)D00M INCARNATE said: I could be remembering it wrong, it's been a while. I thought the helminth was used to turn lots of people into the warframes (mass produced or not). I always thought it made for a good concept for why we have different skins for the same warframes. Different people. Different outcomes. There aren't a canon explanation for this as far as I know, only theories. I think every type of warframe had an original (an umbra of sorts), who was a living human being taken into the warframe program - voluntarily or not. All the mass produced ones were copied from them, with slight differences. For example, Excalibur Umbra and regular Excalibur aren't the same, even if it comes to abilities. If the originals all sustained their consciousness after the transformation, they likely were, well, "scrapped" after a fully functional prime model was made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilChair Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, (PS4)Viveeeh said: There aren't a canon explanation for this as far as I know, only theories. I think every type of warframe had an original (an umbra of sorts), who was a living human being taken into the warframe program - voluntarily or not. All the mass produced ones were copied from them, with slight differences. For example, Excalibur Umbra and regular Excalibur aren't the same, even if it comes to abilities. If the originals all sustained their consciousness after the transformation, they likely were, well, "scrapped" after a fully functional prime model was made. Still, if you "3d-copy" a brain on a biological 3d-printer, it's still going to retain the same kind of personality thought and memories. There's nothing to confirm or deny that they retain their personalities despite being "maspro people", but what makes me sway towards "they do" is that it's the worst case scenario is that (for the sake of drama) all your frames decide to snap (once again) and take off on their own just like before they were pacified by the zariman kids. Edited July 24, 2019 by evilChair 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Viveeeh Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 3 hours ago, evilChair said: Still, if you "3d-copy" a brain on a biological 3d-printer, it's still going to retain the same kind of personality thought and memories. Wow I didn't know there were experiments doing this! Extremely interesting topic, tried and failed to Google it, can you give me some sources (preferably online)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrow Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 14 hours ago, (XB1)D00M INCARNATE said: I could be remembering it wrong, it's been a while. I thought the helminth was used to turn lots of people into the warframes (mass produced or not). I always thought it made for a good concept for why we have different skins for the same warframes. Different people. Different outcomes. The way I see skins is kinda in a literal sense; they're physically covering their true form. Looking at the volt proto skin, nidus, and the infested in general, one could assume that warframes aren't naturally so tidy in their appearance, so the Orokin, obsessed with aesthetics as they were, would likely give them some touch-ups. 4 hours ago, evilChair said: Still, if you "3d-copy" a brain on a biological 3d-printer, it's still going to retain the same kind of personality thought and memories. There's nothing to confirm or deny that they retain their personalities despite being "maspro people", but what makes me sway towards "they do" is that it's the worst case scenario is that (for the sake of drama) all your frames decide to snap (once again) and take off on their own just like before they were pacified by the zariman kids. I don't think they would make an exact copy, just enough to do the job, like just replicating muscle memory and such. They might not even have a conventional brain at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticEdge Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 maybe an Umbra Lord? Ballas's most beautiful creation, that would be the greatest epic to see kick in right about now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako Posted July 25, 2019 Author Share Posted July 25, 2019 3 hours ago, ChaoticEdge said: maybe an Umbra Lord? Ballas's most beautiful creation, that would be the greatest epic to see kick in right about now. well there is the umbra beast helm from china frame maybe he gets a makover someday on global Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticEdge Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 1 hour ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said: well there is the umbra beast helm from china frame maybe he gets a makover someday on global meehhhh...I know they made him but I prefer seeing the umbra lord version being next version of the golden stalker umbra. That would be epic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilChair Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 22 hours ago, (PS4)Viveeeh said: Wow I didn't know there were experiments doing this! Extremely interesting topic, tried and failed to Google it, can you give me some sources (preferably online)? No sources other than old-as-ball(a)s philosophy - just the swamp man paradox should be enough: Quote Suppose Davidson goes hiking in the swamp and is struck and killed by a lightning bolt. At the same time, nearby in the swamp another lightning bolt spontaneously rearranges a bunch of molecules such that, entirely by coincidence, they take on exactly the same form that Davidson's body had at the moment of his untimely death. This being, whom Davidson terms "Swampman," has, of course, a brain which is structurally identical to that which Davidson had, and will thus, presumably, behave exactly as Davidson would have. He will walk out of the swamp, return to Davidson's office at Berkeley, and write the same essays he would have written; he will interact like an amicable person with all of Davidson's friends and family, and so forth. Essentially, the underlying idea is that a perfect copy will be functionally not indistinguishable, but functionally identical to the original to the point that if A and A' were to be placed into separate but otherwise ideally identical situations, their behaviours will be perfectly identical without even the possibility for divergence. Then again, this view relies on something of a deterministic view of physics, but I personally find it hard to doubt that two brains sharing identical structure could in any way differ. Structure is brain, brain is choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilAdam Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 As said in the title, will there be any other umbra warframe in the future, cuz the only umbra Excalibur is so boring for us. May be DE can add more umbra warframes in this game to make those warframes more diverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnarlsDarkley Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Yes there will be other Umbra frames...but DE clearly said these will NOT become Primes 2.0. SO we will only get a few selection of them and no hints so far which ones they have in mind 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steru Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 I've got to disagree. Personally i don't like the idea of more Umbra warframe (Umbra formas are well accepted though). Excalibur Umbra could be considered as Exclaibur prime's substitute for all the players who don't have the prime version and because all prime versions of all warframe will exist in the future, their substitutes (Umbra versions) will not be needed. Also, the addition of more Umbra warframes may lead to lore problems (or maybe not, that's just my assumption). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunaSelenis Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 I believe that there will be more umbra warframes in the Future, however, i also believe that all Umbra Warframes will not have a Primed Version, which can mean two things: Some Warframe we have right now will never get a primed, but receive an umbra version instead Any new Umbra Warframes will not have a "normal" counterpart Take your pick, this is all just speculation on my part, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naneel Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 I guess we either get all Vanilla Frames (their Primes are a bit lame optically) or just the starter frames as Umbra. If it is not tied to this I am hoping for a Nyx Umbra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookieknife Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 (edited) that one on the horse looked like oberon umbra... would love to see hallowed ground 2.0 Edited July 25, 2019 by cookieknife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naneel Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 i guess this should be a Dax, and to to me does not look like oberon at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdframe_Prime Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 2 hours ago, Steru said: I've got to disagree. I don't think is a matter of whether anyone 'agrees' or 'disagrees', DE have already been on the DevStream saying that yes there will be more Umbral style frames, but not all frames will have one. The reference made here: 2 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said: but DE clearly said these will NOT become Primes 2.0. So we will only get a few selection of them Is completely correct too. Basically, Excalibur Umbra is a unique variant of the Excal frames, but the process that made him 'umbra' is not unique, and other 'umbral' frames exist. Maybe not precisely named 'umbra', but they'll be similar things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilAdam Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 As Excalibur umbra is made by Ballas and by making a infestion, I guess maybe in the future other umbral frames would be created in other ways and other purposes as the story goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Knight Raime Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 We don't know. Pre Excalibur Umbra drop the devs stated not every frame would have an Umbra variant and that they wouldn't be upgrades over primes. I think they might have also stated in the same discussion that they were not sure if they were going to do more than one or if it was just going to be one. Considering how that quest went down I'd say the possibility still exists but I don't think it's incredibly likely we'll get more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako Posted July 25, 2019 Author Share Posted July 25, 2019 13 hours ago, evilChair said: No sources other than old-as-ball(a)s philosophy - just the swamp man paradox should be enough: Essentially, the underlying idea is that a perfect copy will be functionally not indistinguishable, but functionally identical to the original to the point that if A and A' were to be placed into separate but otherwise ideally identical situations, their behaviours will be perfectly identical without even the possibility for divergence. Then again, this view relies on something of a deterministic view of physics, but I personally find it hard to doubt that two brains sharing identical structure could in any way differ. Structure is brain, brain is choice. source for experiments is hidden in the sacrifice images and trailers excalibur umbra was subject 9 in the attempt to create umbra excalibur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilChair Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 13 hours ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said: source for experiments is hidden in the sacrifice images and trailers excalibur umbra was subject 9 in the attempt to create umbra excalibur i meant a source for the whole "identical brain means identical person" thing, but this is interesting as well. odd that we get english sprinkled in with orokin (which says [ahwæ̮ɪkɛn]/awaken), since that means that in-universe "english" is spoken orokin. the shape of the bolt reminds me of spira, or kunai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caidezes Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 If they do decide to make more "umbra" frames, I hope it's only for the original launch lineup. They tend to have the most simplistic prime variants. Personally though, leaving it at just Excalibur seems more meaningful to me. It's basically just the prime for everyone who couldn't get it back in the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdframe_Prime Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 21 hours ago, LilAdam said: As Excalibur umbra is made by Ballas and by making a infestion, I guess maybe in the future other umbral frames would be created in other ways and other purposes as the story goes on. Just to clear up; all of the original (Prime) frames were made by Ballas using the Helminth variant of the Infestation. The differences between frames comes from the person, the individual, that was used. For example, Excalibur Prime was the first, because they used a Dax soldier for it (which is why Umbra is an Excal variant, the original person was also a Dax) at least that's what we're led to believe. That's why the Mirage Prime trailer has the voice over that it does; apparently the person used for Mirage twisted the design Ballas had, changed the abilities in some way he wasn't expecting. So the reason there can be other Umbral frames is because Ballas took a similar person to the one used to make, say, an Ember Prime, and their personality was strong enough to twist the abilities into something a little different, but still become an Ember variant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenthReborn Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 I think its adorable people are still trying to pretend our warframes aren't our Capture targets, infested and forced to be our puppets 😉 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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