Umbra warframes [Discussion & Appreciation][*spoilers*]

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

Just now, Loza03 said:

Spoilers if you have yet to complete and board your Railjack.

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That Reliquary drive at the back of engineering looks AWFUL SUSPICIOUS.

Doubly so since its' human shaped. And tall. Warframe-sized tall. What humanoids do we know that are both that tall and would be considered relics to go in a reliquary? Hmmm...

 

Of course, it could be Duviri related as well.

 

 

oh nice my ships still building so pics would be appreciated 

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

oh nice my ships still building so pics would be appreciated 

Again, spoiboi territory.

Spoiler

Cy refers to it as a 'vacancy', except he cannot confirm it is empty. He also refers to it as a colour you've never seen, and other Lovecraftian shenaniganry. Oh, and it whispers to you faintly.

I don't trust that thing. These pics aren't the best as it obscures the 'head' section.

There's also this pic from another thread which shows the head better:

 

 

[AnOldAlias]

17 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Again, spoiboi territory.

  Hide contents

Cy refers to it as a 'vacancy', except he cannot confirm it is empty. He also refers to it as a colour you've never seen, and other Lovecraftian shenaniganry. Oh, and it whispers to you faintly.

I don't trust that thing. These pics aren't the best as it obscures the 'head' section.

There's also this pic from another thread which shows the head better:

 

 

Thanks for the quote, good to know my topics are being appreciated. ^^

But I do agree, that thing is mysterious as hell. I love it.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

very interesting 

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

just a friendly reminder if not already to check your emails on the shirts , there is plat and discounts on content 

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

Shirt Update:

 

[Xaero]

10 hours ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

Shirt Update:

 

Did you get this by email? Or there's a way to look it up on website?

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

5 hours ago, Xaero said:

Did you get this by email? Or there's a way to look it up on website?

email (swear im order #1 for umrba collection as i seem to get it all 1st)

Edited December 5, 2019 by (XB1)EternalDrk Mako

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

received my new t shirt, though seems usps gave it to my neighbor for some reason? 

 i will update with pictures soon 

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

for those not aware 

Edited December 16, 2019 by (XB1)EternalDrk Mako

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

A NEW YEAR , maybe NEW UMRBAS 

 

ope everyone had a good new years and holidays

[Xaero]

Reference time 😄

Dio Umbrando

[(XBOX)SapphyreBlue]

Well first thing to say that i have a S#&$ english sorry for that 

second thing is SPOILERS from The Sacrifice só if u didn’t played yet just don’t read 

now let’s start this, in the Ballas monologue on the vitruvian he said every time “they” when was referring to the warframes, the “greatest” that was injected the reagents, the thecnosyte, so the first warframes was umbras, but the primes warframes is the first so every prime warframes is a umbra? Yes I think but the thing that Excal umbra have that the others prime didn’t have was that the tenno created every frame on the foundry with just blueprints, and we can’t put a dax on a warframe because we don’t have a dax to put there (well tenshin but tenshin is tenshin) this is the reason that umbras walk alone with no Tenno and the Other frames don’t do that well it’s that :p

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Umbras were the first frames and actual people.

Prime frames were the mass productions made during the Old War that were empty shells controlled by the Tenno.

The normal frames are mass productions of the prime versions that don’t have the same quality of construction so they are weaker.

[CopperBezel]

IIRC it's unclear where in time the flashbacks in The Sacrifice sit relative to the logs Ballas recorded for Hunhow that describe the creation of the warframes. He does say that the first run of warframes were destroyed when they proved uncontrollable, but that creates issues in itself. (How did he discover that the Tenno could control them if the warframes weren't around at the time?) If so, that would make Umbra being the original Excalibur entirely impossible.

Umbra is different from all other warframes in the game in that he retains memories. Whether the Primes were originally created similarly is probably unimportant, because they didn't retain memories, and that seems to have been Ballas's intention. Don't forget that every warframe you can play, Prime or otherwise and including Umbra, was recreated on your Orbiter; Umbra just took some special sauce from the Vitruvian data to do so.

It's slightly spoilers

 

to say, but a later flashback shows us a regular Excalibur Prime existing in the Orokin era.

The dev team have floated the idea of future Umbral frames, and I have no doubt that such a thing would follow Excalibur Umbra's mold, meaning they'd be similar to their Primes but with a new deco and attachments and the ability to operate independently.

Edited January 10, 2020 by CopperBezel

[Birdframe_Prime]

Uhhh... no.

The Primes were the first Warframes. That's confirmed.

Umbra was made, as the Quest shows, after the other Warframes by simple logic; in The Sacrifice quest Ballas was going to betray the Orokin to the Sentients, the entire reason that Umbra exists is because Ballas was getting rid of the one person that found out about his betrayal and would have blown the whistle on Ballas. Ballas would (at the very least) have greatly scaled back any new Warframe production, if not stopped it, because of his plan to betray the Orokin. It's unlikely that many, if any, new Warframes were created after Umbra, with the possible exception of any further Umbral style of frames, because why keep helping the people you intend to betray?

Even if we don't know exactly when the Vitruvian was made, the flashbacks from The Sacrifice must have come after Ballas planned to betray the Orokin and thus after the original Warframes were made. Excalibur Umbra was definitely one of the last unique Warframes made in the Orokin Era.

The Quest's reasoning for Umbra's semi-sentience is the specific way he was made; Ballas causing him massive mental trauma that gave him memories and self awareness during the transformation process into a Warframe.

There's actually a hint that more Warframes are capable of this, with the fact that our Warframe acts on its own to break Hunhow's War blade out of its chest. But we've yet to see any further confirmation of that...

[CopperBezel]

Ah, there it is. I'd thought there was a good reason somewhere to assume that the creation of Umbra was late, but couldn't place it.

And worth saying that that's a thing, too - DE has indicated they might say otherwise in the future, but until they do, Umbra appears to be just the name of that individual after his transformation, not a class of frames like "Prime".

[(XBOX)SapphyreBlue]

So how warframes primes were created? Its just metal with the hellminth? (Jordas see the hellminth in every frame) or every frame has the dax there? (every frame breaks war in the game)Why Umbra is a Umbra its just a name for the special ballas frame of his enemy?

Edited January 11, 2020 by (XB1)SapphyreBlue

[(PSN)WaterHornet]

So, you'll have to forgive my ignorance; I struggle a bit with the lore in Warframe. I know there is a comic series which I haven't read (shame on me) and there may be additional lore both inside and outside of the game that I probably missed. I also find the quests WAY too subtle sometimes, and usually if there's fighting and talking at the same time I'm unable to focus on both simultaneously. But my understanding is that all the Frames are made of infected humans as a base from which the technocyte constructs the Warframe around? If they're just robots remotely controlled by the Operator then I can still square the lore in my mind: the "regular" Frames are extracted (?) from bosses, the Primes are discovered from opened relics (whatever they ACTUALLY are), and Umbrals are an actual person trapped inside the Frame and their consciousness is shoved aside when the Operator takes control. There's so much to mine here in this game that I hope DE plumbs in greater detail. God I love this game. 

[(XBOX)SapphyreBlue]

I see like the relics its like a time capsule made by the orokin and they put this on the void to the Sentients dont find and take (this id why u need to use void fissures) its like if anything go wrong tenno go there!

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 hours ago, (XB1)SapphyreBlue said:

So how warframes primes were created? Its just metal with the hellminth?

Well, if you listen to one particular person here on the Forums, they will tell you that's the case.

However, everyone else agrees that the original Warframes, or the 'Prime' of each unique Warframe (such as Excal, Loki, Ember and so on) were created by infecting specific individuals which used their different make-ups to create the different abilities. Most common theory is that a Dax was used to make Excalibur Prime, as it was 'the first' warframe, and because who would be better to volunteer to become an Infested super-soldier than a Dax? But we don't know what other people may have been used. Every non-Prime frame is like the 'production' model of that original, with no real lore behind how they're created. Common consensus is cloning and basic modern-day equivalents of the tech to ensure that the abilities work the same even if the form of the frame is different. Other points exist such as the Red Veil taking a Harrow model of Warframe to use for Rell, and for Silvana having made a Titania model (it's unclear if the Titania made by Silvana was a Prime or a Production model), but these have no specifics.

The line 'We took our greatest, volunteers or not, and polluted them with these cultured reagents.' shows that not everyone was a willing sacrifice to the cause, which does go to explain the oddness in the Mirage Prime trailer where the subject 'laughed under the knife' to warp the original design with their strong personality, changing the frame to become the Mirage we have today.

The weirdest part is that in the entry about creating the frames with the Helminth, it literally says that 'Their skin blossomed into sword-steel.' which indicates that the metal of the Warframes is actually more like an insect carapace or mollusc shell, a natural armour that is basically steel.

2 hours ago, (PS4)WaterHornet said:

the Primes are discovered from opened relics (whatever they ACTUALLY are)

The Relics are containers that have a 'quantum possibility', think of it like the old Schroedinger's Cat experiment, it could contain any one of five blueprints to build a part, you don't know what part is in there until you crack it open ^^ Once you crack it open, that's the only thing it contained and the only thing it ever did contain, but the possibilities were all there before you opened it.

[CopperBezel]

And unlike weapons and sentinels, frame parts from relics are in blueprint form, which means it's not impossible that there was only ever one original Prime of anything. My read is still that the Primes were the production models and the non-Primes merely latter-day imitations. All this means is that I think the blueprints we now use to craft Primes were also used in the Orokin era, on the basis of the fact that there are just too many Tenno for Ballas to have individually designed a superhero form for them, even with help from people like Ms. Titania's-Mom.

4 hours ago, (PS4)WaterHornet said:

If they're just robots remotely controlled by the Operator then I can still square the lore in my mind:

Another couple of clues to the question of warframes and their minds beyond the fact that your own frame, Prime or otherwise, does move to save itself and you independently on exactly one occasion:

• "Neuroptics" definitely just means artificial brains of a kind and is used that way independent of anything to do with warframes in Fortuna dialogue.
• The Queens access your mind through your warframe's skull while you're controlling it remotely. After The War Within, Transference seems to work differently and the operator seems to be physically within the frame in some void-magical sense, but the brains were linked in a very deep and fundamental way the whole time.
• Frames have animation sets. It's a small thing, but to me this really does imply that you're taking on the personality of the frame you inhabit, which 1) means the frame has a personality in the first place and 2) implies it's the same personality we hear about in the lore snippets referring to each frame's original.

 

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The weirdest part is that in the entry about creating the frames with the Helminth, it literally says that 'Their skin blossomed into sword-steel.' which indicates that the metal of the Warframes is actually more like an insect carapace or mollusc shell, a natural armour that is basically steel.

It's not that weird. Salad refers to the Infestation having metallic flesh among his many, many monologues in Patient Zero; I have to trust him over the health types as a source of lore. (He also amusingly implies that you the player don't already have that in the process, since he's trying to sell you on becoming a mutualist like him. Particularly amusing considering he's made a business (literally, per Ropalolyst fight dialogue) of cutting up warframes before getting infected himself, so he knows exactly what's in there, and per his dialogue in his original boss fight, didn't yet know about the operators, so should have already come to the conclusion that the Tenno were in fact Infested.)

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Common consensus is cloning and basic modern-day equivalents of the tech to ensure that the abilities work the same even if the form of the frame is different.

Though it's worth saying that we don't teeeeechnically have any rock-solid evidence that the Helminth isn't being used exactly as it was in the old days, with Ordis shoving some rando in there whenever you craft a frame. Presumably that's a bit too absurd and dark to be at all plausible, but we're only given what we've been given. X ]

I do think that the two-stage crafting process for frames probably parallels the in-universe reality at least a little, with the Orokin-based magic tech parts being made individually and then an Infested body grown around them over a longer period.

Edited January 11, 2020 by CopperBezel

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

I do think that the two-stage crafting process for frames probably parallels the in-universe reality at least a little, with the Orokin-based magic tech parts being made individually and then an Infested body grown around them over a longer period.

I'd agree but for one thing: The Orokin couldn't use any of their actual main tech, because the Sentients could use it too. The entire reason they went to try using the Infested was because not only could the Sentients use their own tech, but because they were AI they could use it even better than the Orokin could. 

When the Infested failed, because of the hive mind effect, they thought that using Helminth and juuuuust the right amount of it would leave a person with a clear mind and not a hive mind effect. They were wrong, but that was the idea. The Warframes came from that experiment.

4 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Transference seems to work differently and the operator seems to be physically within the frame in some void-magical sense, but the brains were linked in a very deep and fundamental way the whole time.

This one's a good point. Ballas clearly communicates with the Dax that becomes Umbra through a 'Transference Bolt', giving him a mental link, but as we saw from the quest if Ballas could have controlled Umbra fully then he wouldn't have A) locked him in a lab on the moon for thousands of years, B) on escaping from that moon lab in the current era he wouldn't have had Lotus blow him up, and finally C) wouldn't have let Umbra go around killing his Sentient allies and be forced to command him to 'stop' when Umbra turned on him again.

The difference in quality of Transference is clear when you see that the Tenno Operator doesn't just enter Umbra's mind and watch his memories through his eyes, they also can manifest in the memory and change it. They can navigate down to the core of Umbra's mind and merge with it, giving the voiceless, nearly mindless creature of Umbra some peace by overlaying their own experiences and acceptance of the events to calm the emotions connected with that tragedy.

It might even be because these are children, rather than the grown, biased and jaded Orokin. The Orokin idea of 'control' is domination, where they control the 'lesser' parts of their society with an iron will and by building armies of clone soldiers and training elite Dax. And when they grow old and feeble, they simply select the most desirable new body from a bunch of children and use Kuva to perform Continuity to live on in that new body. The Tenno idea of 'control' is to join whatever mind is in there and help it, accept it, know that it's alive and that they are stronger together.

Plus, Tenno Transference is also physical. They can use it to physically project themselves through the frame and to a new location. While on a normal basis they would be sitting in that chair in the back of the Orbiter and projecting their minds, they can Transfer their whole self to that location as long as they have that connecting link of the Warframe being there.

I think, though, for a more in-depth review of 'what is a Tenno' and 'what are the Tenno's powers', we'll have to wait for Duviri ^^

[CopperBezel]

Yeah. The Queens opened a path through our warframe's brain and we chose to travel through, but did so without the Somatic Link and seem to have changed the way we use transference since. That's why the next time something similar happens, the first time we bother Umbra in the Arsenal, he's able to just pull us straight out of our frame like Nekros doing a Soul Punch.

49 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I'd agree but for one thing: The Orokin couldn't use any of their actual main tech, because the Sentients could use it too. The entire reason they went to try using the Infested was because not only could the Sentients use their own tech, but because they were AI they could use it even better than the Orokin could. 

When the Infested failed, because of the hive mind effect, they thought that using Helminth and juuuuust the right amount of it would leave a person with a clear mind and not a hive mind effect. They were wrong, but that was the idea. The Warframes came from that experiment.

Maybe, but there seems to be a distinction in what kinds of tech count, and any warframe you choose definitely has some evocative tech greebles in the design somewhere, even if it's just little angular Emissive-colored camera eyes and not all-out like Hildryn's deployable shield widgets. (Which is also true of the similarly "low tech" Prime weapons the original warframes carried.) We still don't actually know what warframes' own magical abilities are, either, and the idea that they derive from anything to do with the Tenno and their connection to the Void is complicated by the fact that the frames predated the Tenno and that Umbra inherited the same powers of any Excalibur. And I don't think we're going to discover that Systems and Neuroptics were never actually a thing, whatever they actually refer to.

Honestly, I won't be surprised if this element of the lore breaks down further - presumably using a Shedu or Battacor on the Sentient Anomaly doesn't result in the gun peeling itself out of your grip and beating you to death, as it logically should by this reasoning. But at this stage I'd wonder if it's more like the Infestation is just some kind of inoculation against getting hacked. 

[TearsOfTomorrow]

7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The weirdest part is that in the entry about creating the frames with the Helminth, it literally says that 'Their skin blossomed into sword-steel.' which indicates that the metal of the Warframes is actually more like an insect carapace or mollusc shell, a natural armour that is basically steel.

Adding to this, it has been explicitly stated that the tennocyte infection SOMEHOW works on metallic constructs/machines, which is why the Infested have the Mutalist MOA/Osprey. So yeah, this fact makes it completely meaningless to wonder where the flesh of a warframe ends and the metal begins: flesh and metal have literally become one.