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Undeserved Snipetron Vandal nerf


Scarecrow
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Snipetron Vandal's damage before it's nerf was fine where it was. It could barely one shot a frame that had overshields at all, mainly doing puncture damage while having one of the lowest base damages of all snipers at the time. The main advantage and unique gimmick of the sniper was that it had innate punchthrough and a much faster reload than other snipers, while having 6 shots in the magazine.

If anything should have been nerfed on the Vandal, it should have either been the higher magazine or the reload. Nerfing one of the disadvantages of the sniper further wasn't the deserved nerf to the weapon.

Edited by Scarecrow
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Nerfing a bit more its main divadantage instead of its good points is normal in conclave where weapons have to be differents but balanced.
Nerfing the magazine or reload speed would just have make it similar to other snipers.

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2 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

Nerfing the magazine or reload speed would just have make it similar to other snipers.

Is that a bad thing? Snipers have always been reasonably similar to others while having certain stat differences and advantages compared to each other. It still would have been an unique sniper worth using if they lowered the reload speed due to it having innate punchthrough and being mainly Puncture based. 

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I haven't try Snipetron Vandal before nerf co I can't say much but - atm I don't see any reason to use it over Rubico (also I dont know much about vectis). 

Effective punchthrough sounds like something fun to use. Atm looks like yea, there is a punchthrough but anyway compared to rubico damage Snipetron's punchthrough feels useless. 

I like Snipetrons feel and sound, overall enjoyable thing to use but compared to Rubico just not worth (especially for somebody who just starts with snipers). 

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I agree tbh, not that it was so op or anything that its mag size or reload speed needed a nerf but it would've been understandable if they nerfed those parts.

Instead of nerfing the actual weapons/abilities that desperately needs a nerf/balancing, they wasted their time on something that was just good as it was. This just makes me wonder if they even play the game.

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u should compare it more to Lanka since its the queen of snipers if u consider AoE. for vectis to rly compete u need a beyond godly riven + primed chamber, the only other sniper that can compete is vulkar wraith but in terms of total prossible dmg lankas AoE capabilities are beyond comparison. taste aside and just speaking stats/dmg even if a snipetron + riven manages to be really really strong and even outshine vectis or even vulkar wraith it would still be up against lanka and there it meets a wall it cant climb.

Edited by Xydeth
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1 minute ago, .Zel said:

This just makes me wonder if they even play the game.

I feel like this was just a misunderstanding of the weapon's advantages and disadvantages that could be easily fixed, hence the thread. 

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Not just the Snipetron Vandal, really. If a sniper rifle even has the chance of 3 body shotting, it's no good. I've had instances of people taking 2 shots from a Rubico and ran off, drives me up the walls. 

The devs seem to have the preconceived notion that DPS is the way to balance stuff, because that's the only reason I see as to why the vandal has a lower damage, fast reload and large mag results in a faster sustained DPS. In a way, it make sense.

But really, they should be balancing it off Time To Kill instead. If they looked at sniper rifles in terms of TTK, then they should've realized how damaging it is to require an extra shot, from 2 to 3. It's not much, but that doubles the minimum TTK, the first shot being instantaneous and all. At any range past medium, the target's going to run away with no problem, with the speed that we can hit and the amount of freaking doors blocking sight lines. So great, the player is forced to get close and not play what a sniper rifle's remotely used for. At that point what not just use a shotgun.

EHP variations and damage type shouldn't be in PvP anyway. There's no apparent visual cues that suggests one is tankier than another. A frame with increase EHP looks and moves the same as one without, even with the -mobility mods. Useful secondaries are limited to ones with high fire rate and/or puncture damage because that's the only choice that make sense for a category that's been relegated to finishing a health only target, except for euphona prime, which outdamage most snipers per shot and TTK, thanks DE. And the only weapon types that are affected by this change is, really, just the slow fire rate ones, for example, comparing an extra shot with the Braton to and extra shot with the Snipetron Vandal.

It's also possible that the Rubico is only the strongest sniper because it doesn't have a usable zoom bonus, since it's crit damage, and the devs balanced the damage off the maximum damage possible, ie the highest zoom. Not realizing how impractical it is to use the high zoom in any situation just for the sake of 2 shotting.

The Vulkar. I'm sure we all forgot that it exists. Maybe because it always 3 shots without the 20% damage multiplier that's locked away in the eye bleeding 12x zoom, with idle sway. It's baffling that zoom bonuses exist in PvE, let alone PvP.

Anyway, off topic.

I doubt they will change any stats other than the damage. It's been like that since the beginning because, I'm guessing, they're afraid to change the characteristic of the weapon. In a way, if you decreased the reload speed on the Snipetron Vandal and bumped up the damage, you'll get a Snipetron. But then again, it's a bit contradictory when they offer up Lies In Wait, that are basically essential and changes the characteristic of the weapon by increasing recoil, but whatever.

Looking at the other side, however, if every sniper rifle can guarantee 2 shots, then why would anyone choose the more sluggish ones like Rubico and the normal Snipetron? Snipetron Vandal would be on top of the list. On top of that, 2 shots at close range is pretty melty, especially when you can hit its max fire rate of 1.5, it can kill within a second. Not so much at long range, since the recoil pretty much slow shots down to 1 per second.

If they do make sniper rifles guarantee 2 shot kills, they would need to change Lies In Wait so that it reduces fire rate instead of increasing recoil, because recoil only slows fire rate at long range. It needs to hard lock the fire rate at 1 shot per second.

That or just guarantee one shot with headshots, raising the headshot multiplier to 3x. Heck I wouldn't even mind if they took Lies In Wait away as long as headshots are still one shot kill. At least that would discourage people using sniper rifles just for removing shields, which is my personal gripe about the game. High damage weapons are just there to remove shields, like the plasma pistol in Halo. Outside of snipers, weapons like Daikyu, or bows in general, you never see people go for a second shot, it's always an automatic pistol followup. Every weapon should be able to hold its own. Switching weapon should be a backup plan, not part of a checklist.

Going off topic again. Let's just stop there.

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4 hours ago, AlphaSierraMike said:

 In a way, if you decreased the reload speed on the Snipetron Vandal and bumped up the damage, you'll get a Snipetron.

Slightly off topic, but I think variants (normal, prime, vandal, prisma, wraith, mara) of a weapon should have the same stats, on the same boat as normalizing melee attack speed by weapon type.

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On 25.6.2017 at 3:52 PM, Scarecrow said:

I just wanted to be the first to point out the hilarious fact that this is yet again the Conclave feedback section.

PvE is not the case here.

uhm....right u caught me...i totally didnt see that...my bad, yes ignore my post then LOL

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I'm pretty sure if you use powers in conjunction with your shooting you'll still have your 2-shot snipers and stuff...this game is supposedly mostly balanced around choosing your warframe and weapons ahead of time, and then using them as a complete package, not just using one weapon the whole time.  Rhino has Roar, Banshee has Sonar, Mirage has Eclipse...unsure how potent Volt's passive is, but if it is active, it should add some stuff.

The only times I think Conclave uses only 1 weapon or 2 is in the variants, where powers are disabled and everyone has the same shield/health/mobility.

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13 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Slightly off topic, but I think variants (normal, prime, vandal, prisma, wraith, mara) of a weapon should have the same stats, on the same boat as normalizing melee attack speed by weapon type.

I wouldn't mind it, they just need to decide which one is the standard, because some original weapons are completely unusable compared to the variants, like the Gorgon against Prisma Gorgon.

But then it is just a reskin of the standard weapon, practically. It will definitely make balancing slightly easier, but I have a feeling that some players will go against that, using the variety/player's choice = better game argument... A BS argument, but nonetheless. At the same time, they will have to go back and redo every variant's stats. And I sorta have a feeling that they can't, because the PvP stats might just be PvE stats with damage multipliers, like it's just a line "PvP damage multiplier: 0.65x" at the bottom of the file, and "PvP headshot: 1.5x" etc. It make sense in the short term, since they wouldn't have to go back and create a separate section in the files for PvP stats for every single weapon.

But that's still a drop in the ocean with the amount of weapons we have. And a lot of them are borderline impossible to balance among their own category because the devs shot their own kneecapped by not being able to change anything outside of damage. Like with the Snipetron Vandal/Vulkar Wraith, these can easily be a hybrid between snipers and Latron that has a faster firing speed but required 3 shots to kill, like semi auto snipers 2 shotting in other FPS compared to bolt actions 1 shotting. But they're stuck at 1.5, the same as Rubico, that frequently 2 shots.

Up to this point, they've been using mods to work around this, but I'm against mandatory mods in general. The weapon should be competitive on its own without any mods. And annoyingly, these mandatory mods are disabled in low ranking games, which they don't even tell the player when it's disabled only when a sniper rifle fails to even get past the shield because Lies In Wait isn't active. Even more annoying that these mods are RNG based. If just half the weapons have a mod tweak, then really, the drop table is going to be so diluted you might as well use a different weapon. It's not a sustainable solution to just keep throwing mods in the game.

Maybe that's why they made Keystone. It would make sense that most, if not, all of the devs that worked on Conclave moved to Keystone. I doubt it will get any more updates other than the token addition of new weapons that they won't balance properly.

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20 hours ago, AlphaSierraMike said:

If a sniper rifle even has the chance of 3 body shotting, it's no good. I've had instances of people taking 2 shots from a Rubico and ran off, drives me up the walls.

Then they're probably using heavy frames, which makes it easier for you to switch to a secondary and run them down.

20 hours ago, AlphaSierraMike said:

The devs seem to have the preconceived notion that DPS is the way to balance stuff

Don't be ridiculous. You and I both know this isn't true.

The average primary deals approximately 300 DPS.
The Snipetron Vandal's raw DPS is 174.24, about average for snipers.
If the devs really only balanced by DPS, then snipers would be 60-70% more powerful than they already are.

20 hours ago, AlphaSierraMike said:

Useful secondaries are limited to ones with high fire rate and/or puncture damage because that's the only choice that make sense for a category that's been relegated to finishing a health only target

I have never seen you, AlphaSierraMike, play any loadout without a sniper.
So it does not surprise me that you have difficulty perceiving value in secondaries that don't directly compliment a sniper loadout.

Meanwhile, other players with more varied playstyles continue to make good use of secondaries like the Bronco, the Twin Rogga, the Kraken, the Pandero, the Magnus, and the Sancti Castanas.

There is certainly nothing wrong with using fast-firing, puncture-biased secondaries to finish sniper-weakened targets.
But do not pretend like that is the only way to play, just because it happens to be the only way you play.

20 hours ago, AlphaSierraMike said:

Switching weapon should be a backup plan, not part of a checklist.

Your loadouts have room for a primary and a secondary weapon for a reason: So you can use them.
It's perfectly reasonable for certain loadouts to say: "I will use this weapon to open engagements, and I will use that weapon to end them."

Furthermore, if weapons like the Daikyu always one-shotted, they would be overpowered.
The requirement to switch to a secondary to secure a kill is an important balancing factor.

39 minutes ago, AlphaSierraMike said:

some original weapons are completely unusable compared to the variants, like the Gorgon against Prisma Gorgon.

The Gorgon is a very powerful and competitive weapon.

39 minutes ago, AlphaSierraMike said:

the variety/player's choice = better game argument... A BS argument, but nonetheless.

What a wonderful counterargument. So insightful!

39 minutes ago, AlphaSierraMike said:

not being able to change anything outside of damage.

Well, this is obviously false.

Some bows, like the Paris and the Daikyu, have increased flight speeds.
Some explosive weapons, like the Penta, have reduced AoE ranges.
Finally, and most obviously, almost all automatic weapons have reduced magazine sizes.

The developers could change any stats to balance a weapon, but by limiting most of their changes to raw damage, they best preserve the personality of the weapon.

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7 hours ago, AlphaSierraMike said:

I wouldn't mind it, they just need to decide which one is the standard, because some original weapons are completely unusable compared to the variants, like the Gorgon against Prisma Gorgon.

Indeed. It would be a bit of juggling, but I think after a few hotfixes any odd weapon too strong or too weak would be mostly fixed. Largely thanks to some individuals who record all the weapon damage stats, ehp tables, etc. Void bless those players.

7 hours ago, AlphaSierraMike said:

But then it is just a reskin of the standard weapon, practically. It will definitely make balancing slightly easier, but I have a feeling that some players will go against that, using the variety/player's choice = better game argument... A BS argument, but nonetheless. At the same time, they will have to go back and redo every variant's stats. And I sorta have a feeling that they can't, because the PvP stats might just be PvE stats with damage multipliers, like it's just a line "PvP damage multiplier: 0.65x" at the bottom of the file, and "PvP headshot: 1.5x" etc. It make sense in the short term, since they wouldn't have to go back and create a separate section in the files for PvP stats for every single weapon.

Actually, I think the Conclave arsenal just stores a copy of whatever you have on your inventory. Hence why, if you lane "config A" on your PvE weapon with something like "Grineer" the Conclave counterpart will retain the "config A" default unless you change it.

I remember an incident where the Marelok (regular) had two versions on the PvE arsenal, and they were two separate weapons. That could have been a slip from how the Conclave arsenal actually works.

7 hours ago, AlphaSierraMike said:

But that's still a drop in the ocean with the amount of weapons we have. And a lot of them are borderline impossible to balance among their own category because the devs shot their own kneecapped by not being able to change anything outside of damage. Like with the Snipetron Vandal/Vulkar Wraith, these can easily be a hybrid between snipers and Latron that has a faster firing speed but required 3 shots to kill, like semi auto snipers 2 shotting in other FPS compared to bolt actions 1 shotting. But they're stuck at 1.5, the same as Rubico, that frequently 2 shots.

Or Nikanas. Nikana Prime is the fastest of the 3, but also the weakest. It requires 2 direct hits from the 'Sudden Spring' to kill an average EHP frame. The regular Nikana is slow as a snail by comparison, but only requires 1.

While this on paper is noticeable, in gameplay it defines what kind of players use them. Novice melee players tend gravitate towards the faster Nikana prime because it gives more opportunities to hit by being faster, while a veteran may prefer the regular Nikana because said veteran has the skill and experience to consitently land attacks even from slower weapons thanks to landing prediction and combo steer.

Of course then we have other stuff like Skana and it's Prisma being literally superior to every other single sword in the game. Dakra Prime for example is slightly faster, not by a lot, but it deals scratch damage by comparison to a Skana which can actually oneshot you on direct hit slams and nearly oneshot on the pause combo alone. Though I think their damage values don't match with their arsenal values since according to arsenal the weapons are balanced like every other melee category. I would need to test that or have someone else do it.

7 hours ago, AlphaSierraMike said:

Up to this point, they've been using mods to work around this, but I'm against mandatory mods in general. The weapon should be competitive on its own without any mods. And annoyingly, these mandatory mods are disabled in low ranking games, which they don't even tell the player when it's disabled only when a sniper rifle fails to even get past the shield because Lies In Wait isn't active. Even more annoying that these mods are RNG based. If just half the weapons have a mod tweak, then really, the drop table is going to be so diluted you might as well use a different weapon. It's not a sustainable solution to just keep throwing mods in the game.

I agree on this. It's particuarly egregious with melee too where you have: Stance, Sword Alone (flat out mandatory mods), Mortal Conduit (that allows when about to die to have a feature we DID have previously, for a short period of time, and that was removed from baseline for unexplained reasons), Stand Ground (that ability damage block reduction should be by default) and Martial Fury (by virtue of Attack speed being a godstat for any weapon below 1.2 and Impenetrable Offense being useless sh*t since the nerf)

7 hours ago, AlphaSierraMike said:

Maybe that's why they made Keystone. It would make sense that most, if not, all of the devs that worked on Conclave moved to Keystone. I doubt it will get any more updates other than the token addition of new weapons that they won't balance properly.

Makes sense... *puts tinfoil hat*

 

But in the end, the truth of the matter is this picture of a seal riding a whale:

1442446512022.jpg

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6 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Then they're probably using heavy frames, which makes it easier for you to switch to a secondary and run them down.

Don't be ridiculous. You and I both know this isn't true.

The average primary deals approximately 300 DPS.
The Snipetron Vandal's raw DPS is 174.24, about average for snipers.
If the devs really only balanced by DPS, then snipers would be 60-70% more powerful than they already are.

It was more comparing Snipetron Vandal to other sniper rifles. Snipetron Vandal's is lower than other snipers because it has that faster reload speed that bumps up the sustained DPS. If anything, the DPS clouds the actual damage output of a weapon, because, trusting that your figures are right, Snipetron Vandal is close to the average DPS for snipers, but still performs poorly in game simply because DPS does not reflect time to kill, whether it is because it's puncture based or that small DPS loss is enough to make the weapon a 3 shot kill, or both.

6 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

I have never seen you, AlphaSierraMike, play any loadout without a sniper.
So it does not surprise me that you have difficulty perceiving value in secondaries that don't directly compliment a sniper loadout.

Meanwhile, other players with more varied playstyles continue to make good use of secondaries like the Bronco, the Twin Rogga, the Kraken, the Pandero, the Magnus, and the Sancti Castanas.

There is certainly nothing wrong with using fast-firing, puncture-biased secondaries to finish sniper-weakened targets.
But do not pretend like that is the only way to play, just because it happens to be the only way you play.

I'll hide the rest, it's a bit long.

 

I don't equip anything but a Vasto. Even then, I refrain from using it in general. I don't find finishing off people simply through sheer volume of fire rewarding. But again, it's a personal gripe of mine that most players only use sniper rifles for lowering shield. And speaking from experience, when someone uses anything high damage, like snipers and bows, they will always switch to an automatic immediately after landing a shot. Of course there's nothing wrong with it, it's the most effective way to get a kill after all. But it's still not a fun experience to go up against when there's not much of an option to fight back besides doing the same thing, like the Plasma Pistol combo in Halo games.

As for playstyle, I dunno, the weapons may vary, but the players I've gone up against has been generally the same since day 1, close quarters chases only. Everyone, without fail, will try getting close and chase, even with sniper rifles, to the point where they will jump back and forth bullet jumping at each other. No distance maintained, no flanking to an alternate path to cut people off. No consideration with regards to positioning besides headglitching doorways. Simply because there's no need for it. Again, I don't blame people for doing that, the game just seem to favor this behavior more than anything else. But rarely do I see exchanges happening across map, everything happens in a small section of the map. 

I want to be surprised by someone cutting me off from a different direction. I want someone to aim for my head at a distance and for that to be a viable option. I don't want to be able to survive longer than I should just by running loops around an object on a consistent basis. It's not that I'm pretending it's the only way to play, the community is showing that apparently the only way to play is to chase or get chased.

For the record. I keep my distance and go for shots that way, even with other primaries. It's not that i don't use anything other than snipers, but using autos with high ping is inconsistent and there's a risk of exposing myself longer than I needed to simply because I'm shooting more that needed. Taking as few shots as possible is my workaround for that. But even then, mid range fights are at a premium.

Take it as me being stubborn about what I look for in a game, I suppose.

6 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Your loadouts have room for a primary and a secondary weapon for a reason: So you can use them.
It's perfectly reasonable for certain loadouts to say: "I will use this weapon to open engagements, and I will use that weapon to end them."

Furthermore, if weapons like the Daikyu always one-shotted, they would be overpowered.
The requirement to switch to a secondary to secure a kill is an important balancing factor.

Daikyu doesn't force players to switch to a secondary, strictly speaking. You can take a second shot. That's a choice someone can make just like with any other weapon. Switching to a secondary as soon as the shield goes down shouldn't be a requirement. But it's not a viable option for Daikyu. Of course it shouldn't one shot, it was the case a while back and it was a nightmare. But at the same time it should be worth using as a solo weapon and using a secondary should be an option.

Hell the game even tries to incentivise followup with the mod Plan B for bows. Why does the most optimal method still need an extra boost? Sure, it's 0.2%, but it still raises the chance on top of just starting the engagement with the other person with no shield.

Again, take it as a personal gripe or me being stubborn about the game if you want, and just ignore this. But every weapon should be able to stand on its own, one way or another.

6 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

The Gorgon is a very powerful and competitive weapon.

What a wonderful counterargument. So insightful!

Well, this is obviously false.

Some bows, like the Paris and the Daikyu, have increased flight speeds.
Some explosive weapons, like the Penta, have reduced AoE ranges.
Finally, and most obviously, almost all automatic weapons have reduced magazine sizes.

The developers could change any stats to balance a weapon, but by limiting most of their changes to raw damage, they best preserve the personality of the weapon.

The amount of Gorgon users says otherwise. Powerful, yes. Accurate, no. Maybe the Gorgon Wraith. Are we in different regions, by any chance?

You'll be surprised how many people actually make that argument of "we want to have more", and perhaps the "I should be able to use what I got", and hey, majority rules. For the record, I don't think more content makes a better game, simply because there's a lot more opportunities for imbalance to occur. But in all honestly, I would go beyond having the same stat with variants and only have a dozen or so weapons available. I would rather have a small selection of weapons that has its own niche and plays well with each other, than hundreds of weapons doing natural selection. An almost chess experience, I suppose. If the devs weren't going for that kind of experience, I'm happy to drop the subject. Even the single loadout modes were fun. I enjoyed Opticor Variant, and would've liked the Genji themed game mode and Christmas event as well if people refrained from slamming constantly.

Ok, then let's say it was a design decision rather than a technical bodge. That's just the impression I got, looking back at how the devs said back at the beginning, that all weapons will have a neutral damage type. The UI supported this, but turned out it didn't, weapons still dealt IPS damage. If PvP stats are separate, why was it changed back to openly IPS instead of actually making it neutral? It's not too far fetched to consider there's some overlaps in the stats that they can't get rid off or simply added PvP multipliers on top.

Personality not a good reason to lock most stats in when balances have to work around these restrictions, that didn't even have PvP in mind. Simultaneously, they're ignoring these restriction with mods anyway.

  • Sniper rifles have massive recoil increase
  • Rubico have lower zoom
  • Supra have accuracy buff while aiming
  • Gorgons have higher fire rate on kills
  • Miter explodes
  • -recoil mods, just to name a few.

Pretty much all weapon specific mod changes the characteristic, as well as the recoil/reload speed/mag size mods, and there's barely any drawback to consider it's basically mandatory. It's so wishy washy. Just scrap that rule and change the base weapon stat. Then they can actually start experimenting and get things just right, instead of relying on a fixed percentage mod that affect weapons differently, hoping the problem will fix itself.

I mean, Grakata did not need an infinite ammo mod, it needed damage consistency with bad ammo economy and high recoil as its drawback. It was still a Grakata as long as those drawbacks are present. But because there is a -recoil mod, it couldn't have increase damage or else it would've turned into a death laser.

That said, they would have to review every single weapon manually.

Anyway, it's all a pipe dream at the moment. But seriously, how long was it ago that they had a specific update section for conclave that weren't just the token weapon addition?

Edited by AlphaSierraMike
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45 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Actually, I think the Conclave arsenal just stores a copy of whatever you have on your inventory. Hence why, if you lane "config A" on your PvE weapon with something like "Grineer" the Conclave counterpart will retain the "config A" default unless you change it.

I remember an incident where the Marelok (regular) had two versions on the PvE arsenal, and they were two separate weapons. That could have been a slip from how the Conclave arsenal actually works.

...

But in the end, the truth of the matter is this picture of a seal riding a whale:

But that's just loadouts though. It's possible that the way that the structure works like:

  • (Base Stat)(inaccessible to player)
    • (PvE1 Loadout)
    • (PvE2 Loadout)
    • (PvP1 Loadout)

"Loadout" is the one you access on the arsenal screen, and where you can put any modifiers like mods, forma, catalysts etc., and perhaps even PvP multipliers, while the "Loadout" refers to "Base stat". Because, in a way, we don't need direct access to the "Base stat" anyway.

Instead of:

  • (Base PvE1 Stat)
    • (PvE Loadout)
  • (Base PvE2 Stat)
    • (PvE Loadout)
  • (Base PvP1 Stat)
    • (PvP Loadout)

That could save a good amount of space if someone makes a duplicate weapons. Instead of storing the base stats again, just refer to it.

It's still a decent possibility that it works this way, since a lot of the stuff that KWord listed out can be done with mod like multipliers applied the "PvP loadouts" only. Maybe a sub folder esque like this, so in order for "Base stat" to send the stats to "PvP Loadout", it has to go through "PvP multiplier" first.

  • (Base Stat)(inaccessible to player)
    • (PvE1 Loadout)
    • (PvE2 Loadout)
    • (PvP Multipliers)
      • (PvP1 Loadout)

But I don't have any proof for this. So take it with a grain of salt.

...

Majestic.

Edited by AlphaSierraMike
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11 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

But in the end, the truth of the matter is this picture of a seal riding a whale:

1442446512022.jpg

I think this majestic picture from now on should be used in response to any player who says PvP shouldn't exist in Warframe, and/or any PvE replies that players make to topics labeled as Conclave.

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13 minutes ago, Nighttide77 said:

I think this majestic picture from now on should be used in response to any player who says PvP shouldn't exist in Warframe, and/or any PvE replies that players make to topics labeled as Conclave.

I support it!

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