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Relic system : A disaster in the long run


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Hello there fellow Tenno,

I just wanted to shed some light on the current relic system which is proving to be disastrous day by day. When the relics first came out everyone was excited and happy that they can finally say good bye to RNG but nope, it's even worse than before. Sure we can select our reward, concentrate our relics with traces which is awesome but we have to vastly depend on RNG to get the right relics. I've been on defence/survivals/excavation missions from the past three days, didn't do syndication missions or raids or symaris rep to farm the relics I needed but it all vent in vain. I only got 2 copies of a single relic I needed from 6relics that I wanted. The main problem here is the same reason why relics were introduced. There were too many rewards for less type of keys; now there are too many relics and the rewards for the mission MIGHT give you a relic and you HAVE to DEPEND on RNG to get the relic you desire. Now, people will tell me to buy relic pack from syndicate, but That's not the syndicates are for. Playing games is not what I do for a living. I won't have maxed primed mods, won't have all day to earn syndicate rep and balance the four syndicates. Making videos is not my job nor am I a hardcore gamer, I'm a casual gamer who loves playing warframe. The syndicate points are precious to casual players like me and we like to spend Those on augments. If we keep buyibg relics from them then everytime we have points to buy augments something or the else will come and we'll have to spend thise on relics. And relics are not meant to be farmer that way. And we have to depend on RNG AGAIN to get the relics we want. I'm getting bored playing the game I love because of this. I know its a grindy game and I need to grind stuff I want but this is insanity. Black Desert is a lot grindier than Warframe but YOU GET WHAT YOU WANT there. 

 

There are 3 ways to solve a problem 

1. Know there is one. 

2. Identify the problem

3. Take measures to solve it. 

 

I've done the first teo, what about third? It's YOUR GAME, and you're the ones who  take the final step, I'll just give some ideas to solve this problem. 

 

Having consistency in the relic drops; Each mission(exterminate, excavation, spy, sabotage, etc) which drop reic must have a specific relic drop table and must drop reic on every mission. There should be only 2 specified relics per node. This way it's actually fun.

 

I'm starting to wonder what will become of this community. 

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Well said, I got no opinion on your offered solution but has got the exact same gripe. The grind has shifted toward relic farming and is a lot worse than I think everybody expected. Then to cap it all you still need to grind a boatload of void traces to refine your relic.....

 

It's all getting a bit too crazy.

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4 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

Worse then before? Keys farming was no fun time either fyi. Wanted a sabotage key and get its rare reward? good luck.

 

You had a lot more chance to get sabotage keys than you have the chance to get desired relic. 

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3 minutes ago, PsychicWarlock said:

You had a lot more chance to get sabotage keys than you have the chance to get desired relic. 

Did you forget that t4 and t3 keys shared the same table but t4 having a smaller drop chance? Like this is some serious rose colored glasses thinking here.

Like I'm not defending RNG of the current system but the old system was damn punishing and that is something I simply can not defend.

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There are more different kinds of relics than there were keys. All the DEvs had to do was reduce dilution of tables (like removing MODS, credit caches, resources, ENDO/CORES, some keys).

The current system is a worse grind. Sure, it's less redundant, but still a grind.

Old system: Grind missions for keys. Grind keys for primes. Plain and simple.

Current system: Grind missions for relics. Grind relics for primes and traces. Grind with upgraded relics.

The only new factor is the SHEER amount of relics obtainable in-game. IIRC there were only 6 kinds of keys per tier (exterminate, defense, sabotage, capture, survival, mobile defense) before (7 for T4, because interception), meaning 25 keys IN-GAME. Currently, there are I don't know how many relics obtainable.

Before you say that "how about the vaulted primes making a return, etc etc," the derelicts exist for a reason. They can also add in those parts in those keys if they want to as well.

As it stands, the current system is a bigger grind.

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5 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

Did you forget that t4 and t3 keys shared the same table but t4 having a smaller drop chance? Like this is some serious rose colored glasses thinking here.

Like I'm not defending RNG of the current system but the old system was damn punishing and that is something I simply can not defend.

I remember well. But they were FARMABLE but these relics are NOT. It's drifting into messier system lottle by little. All I'm asking is remove UNREWARDING rewards like 15 endo and stuff, Define specific relic drops into specific missions. Make relics actually farmable instead of just showing they are farmable. 

 

Well, the current system is far more punishing than it was before. 

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22 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

Worse then before? Keys farming was no fun time either fyi. Wanted a sabotage key and get its rare reward? good luck.

 

I'm not comparing the current vs the old - i"m merely stating that it is worse than everybody expected.

And while we're at it, lets not forget the hours spent trying to assemble a squad all with the right relic of the correct refinement.

 

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1 minute ago, PsychicWarlock said:

I remember well. But they were FARMABLE but these relics are NOT. It's drifting into messier system lottle by little. All I'm asking is remove UNREWARDING rewards like 15 endo and stuff, Define specific relic drops into specific missions. Make relics actually farmable instead of just showing they are farmable. 

 

Well, the current system is far more punishing than it was before. 

I stand by my point. 2 relics have about the same rare drop rate as a rare drop from a key (and keys had multiple). 4 is a definite upgrade in chance per run and higher ranks just raise it more and more. Compared to the old system the upgrades are a bonus, not a sidegrade. Intact is a sidegrade, And I think people forget that way to easily, comparing the radiant as a sidegrade to the old chances making the old chances seem way better then before.

You can ignore that for your nostalgia trip if you wish. but that is just how it is.

Yes the farm shifted from farming contents to farming the key itself by a margin depending on key rank. (t4 was still a hell to farm for though covered by T3s)

The only thing I miss is the keys that happened to be connected to endless runs as that meant more rewards from 1 run, still was a hell though when you did not get that rare you need after 6-10, 40-60 minute runs (and yes that was a thing with the old system, it was HARSH)

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The problems with the current system are the RNG relics. I'm going to assume that D.E. thought that it was a good idea to make relics available as they are now because it makes players play the game. 

The only way for a Free-to-Play game to survive is to have a good number of players playing at any given time. 

This system also simply gives you relics for playing through the game. It's a great idea for new players being able to acquire relics, but bad for older players because you have to go back and farm on top of farming. 

I am very happy with the reward selection screen though. Void traces are also a pain to farm, but one Axi Survival will pay dividends... 

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At first when Relics were introduced, I initially thought that upgrading a relic to a certain tier makes the items from the previous tier not drop, leaving you with higher chances of getting items from the tier you've upgraded the relic too. Going with intact? Have the standard drop chances for all items as it is now. Want to just have bronze rewards? Go with Exceptional. Silver? Flawless is your pick. Gold? Be prepared to invest in making it a Radiant.
This would reduce the grind so drastically that it makes it unappealing long-term if implemented as is- people will get everything too fast. How can it be improved? Exclude the previous tiers, but not those above. Still not enough for higher tiers and Radiants are a surefire win? Then make them cost far more traces, Radiants especially. There still is farming, you'll still have the RNG, but with it also comes control over your rewards.
But we all know that DE reduces the grind only once in a blue moon, so... Unlikely to happen.

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18 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ZenithLord 42 said:

The problems with the current system are the RNG relics. I'm going to assume that D.E. thought that it was a good idea to make relics available as they are now because it makes players play the game. 

The only way for a Free-to-Play game to survive is to have a good number of players playing at any given time. 

This system also simply gives you relics for playing through the game. It's a great idea for new players being able to acquire relics, but bad for older players because you have to go back and farm on top of farming. 

I am very happy with the reward selection screen though. Void traces are also a pain to farm, but one Axi Survival will pay dividends... 

I would totally agree that a game, free to play or otherwise similar to Warframe lives and dies by its ability to draw and retain players. Has the relic system done this though? Following Steam charts for the game and Specters of the Rail's release, we had our biggest drop in players, and numbers, while they have spiked for updates - to see the new gear - have stayed overall lower on average. I have played with a lot of players, and while I don't have numbers or anything like that in my experience less players of my 100+ allies log in outside those big updates and the main reason for them is the relics - which are more grindy at least in our play experience.

 

26 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

I stand by my point. 2 relics have about the same rare drop rate as a rare drop from a key (and keys had multiple). 4 is a definite upgrade in chance per run and higher ranks just raise it more and more. Compared to the old system the upgrades are a bonus, not a sidegrade. Intact is a sidegrade, And I think people forget that way to easily, comparing the radiant as a sidegrade to the old chances making the old chances seem way better then before.

You can ignore that for your nostalgia trip if you wish. but that is just how it is.

Yes the farm shifted from farming contents to farming the key itself by a margin depending on key rank. (t4 was still a hell to farm for though covered by T3s)

The only thing I miss is the keys that happened to be connected to endless runs as that meant more rewards from 1 run, still was a hell though when you did not get that rare you need after 6-10, 40-60 minute runs (and yes that was a thing with the old system, it was HARSH)

As far as the two are concerned, getting t4 keys was a relatively easy encounter, as you could just run Interceptions which gave only t4 keys on their rotation C wave rewards. Later, near the Specters update in-fact, high level survivals and excavations were opened up to having t4 keys show as well though t3 keys were in the same rotations. You need a T4 Interception, you had to only get to round 4 on Phobos or higher, and you had a chance out of t4 defense, survival, or Interception and that was it. Then once you had that key, you had a mission for your entire team; each keeping all those rewards and if you ran together to get that t4 key, you could do the same for each.

Keys were time consuming but rewarding for the time spent, while relics require more/more variety to be farmed to do the mission, the same endless missions to get most of your relics that players sometimes list as hating; and you have the rewards themselves that you can only pick one of with comparable chances if you upgrade them. Of course, that requres a team of players willing to farm and use those relics with you - and the trade-off is the possibility of better quality with a guaranteed less quantity. In my experience, the only prime rewards as low as the rares was the increasingly bloated Rotation C of T3 Survival.

There is a good element of relics, in the codex information on locations/contents and the relic segment allowing searches by the primes. The are ways of improving the system, but for now, its grindy and reduces the retention of players by giving them less than do while waiting for new content or updates.

Edited by Urlan
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Currently available (non-vaulted/non-Baro) Void Relics:

Lith - A2, N3, S4, S6, V2, V3, V4 (7)

Meso - D1, F1, N4, O1, S2, S4, S5, S6, V5 (9)

Neo - B2, N6, N7, S6, T1, V2, V5 (7)

Axi - A1, B2, C2, E2, G1, H2, O1, V5 (8)

 

Formerly available void keys:

Tower I: Capture, Defense, Extermination, Mobile Defense, Sabotage, Survival (6)

Tower II: Capture, Defense, Extermination, Mobile Defense, Sabotage, Survival (6)

Tower III: Capture, Defense, Extermination, Mobile Defense, Sabotage, Survival (6)

Tower IV: Capture, Defense, Excavation, Interception, Mobile Defense, Sabotage, Survival (7)

 

There's really not that many more relics than there were keys.  Each time new ones are introduced, old ones are vaulted.  The big differences now are A) you can improve your relic to increase the chance of a rare reward, and B) you can form a group with others using the same relic to increase the chance of the item you want dropping.

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Keys were more fun. Farming them, sharing them, playing them. Relics feel the same everywhere having to collect the 10 pieces in every game mode was boring almost immediately. Keys put more emphasis on the game mode you were in and your HUD wasn't littered with distracting icons all over it. More over you're taken out of the experience having to put emphasis on collecting, then the entire group has to pause to pick their next relic. I liked the C rotations too. It was just a better time with friends. Of course it came at a sacrifice to fast and precise rewards, but honestly I got more of the equipment I wanted playing this way. Whenever I earn a relic as a reward or play relics it just doesn't have the same wow factor to the experience for me. I have more reasons, but I really don't like relics

Edited by komoriblues
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If you want old key system I am going to have to refused 2hr survivals or 60 wave defence for a rare no microscopic chance at a part I can't deal with again never ever again. Relics are far far better since their release getting primes has been a passive act for just run syndicate missions get relics packs run start chart missions run fissures of all kinds and prosper if you want the cancerous elitelist key system back sorry gonna have to strongly disagree. But removing the dilution in the starchart reward table to make relic farming slightly easier than I can agree with.

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The relic system is extremely boring. Rhino Prime was unvaulted a few days ago. Between last night and today I have spent 12 hours of actual gaming just trying to GET 1  AXI R1 Relic. 12 HOURS attempting to get a relic. 12 ....... Hours ....... Trying to get a relic. Think about that. Not 12 hours of farming T4 survival 20 40 60 minutes. 12 hours of trying to get a key pretty much lmfao. This is ridiculous. I've farmed Xini countless times. Heiracon countless times. Hydron, Stofler, Oestrus. Mot 3 times 20 minutes each run. All of this work just to get an AXI R1 relic. On the first night of the unvaulting I got lucky and managed to get 1 from Oestrus. Ran it radiant with the same squad I got it with and we didn't get the rare part. So between last night and today, again 12 hrs total between this two days, I have yet to get another AXI R1 relic. 

This game is getting so boring now. I can't really say that I truly miss the old void but the relic system ticks me off. When  the Void was here, I didn't have to farm for keys. I sat in recruit and ran missions with randoms and throughout running missions with randoms I stocked up on keys that I was not looking for at the time and they came in handy when I did need them. You can't do the same with the relic system. You literally have to farm for a KEY to get 1 shot at the prime part that you are looking for. It's bull and there's no other way to put it.

Edited by (PS4)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt
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On 6/27/2017 at 4:44 AM, p3z1 said:

As it stands, the current system is a bigger grind.

Yep, and good luck pairing with teammates to farm the same stuff you want too. I really don't understand why they're defended at all. It's the worst.

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  • 1 month later...

Watch a LONG HOURS Grind before Solar of the Rail, 1Key Endless reward for staying longer in the missions. Now go play long hours in the same T1/Lith T2/Meso T3/Neo T4/Axi Relics.

Of course THERE is a difference, because you get what you spend your time doing, but Keys before SotR Updates rewards more.

Currently with the Fissure Systems, you have to GRINDS more TEDIOUSLY just to get enough amount, of Relics. then you might want to combine the samre Relics (rare/vaulted) with other Tennos. (Hence, 1 Key = 4 Relics, (but we all know the Key can multiply results than 1 reward).(Also leaving 1 Key > 4 Relics).

Already suggested, that RELICS need to be RAIN/FLOOD upon  (In all every Nodes you will find Relics). For RNG  will keep the inherit Key reward chances. The "Random Number Generator" does not guaranteed the desired Items, but improve percentage with the current SotR Relics system.

 

There a reasons I won't getting new relics, as I have already spend a few good hours, and getting what I feel like is 1/3rd not Vaulted Relics that I have to save. 

YEAH, the current HOURS spending having to hunt down some types of Relics and deciding to Solo, really feel like taking Sprints, while old Key was Marathon of Grinds. 

BTW, I try the 20,000 Relic Pack form Syndicate, 3 Relics, REALLY? If I got 3 Keys from Relics Pack, that would at least equate to: 12 Relic ~3 Key.

Have Fun Grinding, just going to do some thing else and Sortie (btw, do High :credits: , while big Chunk of Endos).

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On 6/27/2017 at 6:44 AM, p3z1 said:

As it stands, the current system is a bigger grind.

This is objectively untrue. On average, you will aquire desired prime parts considerably faster with Relics as opposed to keys. This is undisputable, when you project the time it takes to get a part based on drop tables, relics win the race by a large margin. 

 

You can complain that the grind does not "feel" as good as keys, but that is obviously just your opinion. I personally would rather have relics even if it took longer than keys to farm parts. I play Warframe to play everything Warframe has to offer, not a single tile set and enemy faction. 

Honestly, I think this is a case of rose tinted glasses. 

 

Edit: I do think relics should be a more consistent reward throughout the star chart however. It should be just as efficient to farm relics from spy as survival as sabotage as exterminate as defense. 

Edited by DrBorris
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On 27/6/2017 at 7:44 AM, p3z1 said:

 

The current system is a worse grind.

It has been mathematically proven Relic System is way way WAY less grind than old Key System was. While Relics have roughly the same RNG as Keys had, that only holds true for Intact relics. The ability to upgrade Relics makes the RNG less atrocious than what old keys had.

Besides the Relic System solved the problem of being stuck on those cursed golden halls, always staring at the same walls forever. At least Fissures allow players to see different tilesets and enemies.

Another thing, is that while people say endless modes are not rewarding anymore, that's BS. In older times only Void Key Endless were worth going and staying for longer periods, that sort of repeats itself: normal endless modes are still not worth staying, but Fissure Endless modes definetly are, why? it saves cr*ptons of Traces, because you get increasingly more traces per relic cracked and you start getting already upgraded relics.

On 27/6/2017 at 7:44 AM, p3z1 said:

The only new factor is the SHEER amount of relics obtainable in-game. IIRC there were only 6 kinds of keys per tier (exterminate, defense, sabotage, capture, survival, mobile defense) before (7 for T4, because interception), meaning 25 keys IN-GAME. Currently, there are I don't know how many relics obtainable.

Maybe, but you have to rememeber that:

T1s were mostly worthless because they rewarded MORE T1 keys or T2 keys. "Thank you tenno, but your reward is in another tower!" And they dropped on all low level planets.

T2s fell into the same as T1s, except they dropped freaking EVERYWHERE except Interceptions, clogging the tables.

T3s were on high level planets, but usually you were stuck doing Interception because all other sources were clogged with worthless T2s

T4s were only available trough Interception (except for T4 Sabotage which dropped on Rosalinda, Uranus, Spy, pre Starchart revamp). The Interception were also clogged with all T3s.

On top of this: Non-endless Void Keys were usually worthless too (for the aboundant ones with cr*p rewards, like T1-2s) or rare as sh*t that you couldn't hope to get what you wanted (T3s and T4s). Endless Keys were the only ones worth getting (for T3-4, T1-2 were worthless because they were abundant and clogged every other table and they rewarded mostly credit caches, fusion cores or more sh*tty T1-2 keys).

Now compare to Relic system:

Relics are separated in 4 tiers, depending on planet level, just like old keys.

Other than Lith, Meso and Neo are easily accessible on any mission type that rewards them (even the quick Captures!). Axi are sadly locked ALL except 1 behind Endless modes (Axi G1 drops from Lua Spy Pavlov).

Meso Relics are equivalent to T2s... in that they are nearly everywhere clogging tables (special mention to Pavlov, preventing anyone with a like for Spy and dislike for Endless of getting that only Axi).

All relics regardless of rank or content are worth cracking, and since we crack them in large numbers (due to not having endless rewards from a single relic) they are as used as obtained, unlike old stockpiles of T2s that just gathered dust.

 

So, the only real change the Relic system needs is to add  Axi to non-endless modes and reduce/eliminate Meso relics from the higher planets non-endless modes (Pluto, Ceres, Eris) or add new non-endlesss modes with higher level that reward them.

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There's too many nodes that share the same set of relics as rewards.

A maximum of maybe 2 different relics per C rotation would be nice. 
A quick check shows that Lua infinites have a chance to drop every Axi relic on their C rotation. 
So, to put that in context, for a survival you have a 1/8 chance to get the relic you want every 20 minutes or 2 1/8 chances for 20 waves of survival.
Considering that each of the relics you're getting has a single shot at getting you the item you want this is pretty bad.

This is largely the same for all relics (occasionally there will be a mission that excludes a specific relic).

Considering how many unpopulated nodes there are, surely it would make sense to split drop tables between these nodes rather than having everything clustered together so only Xini gets used (due to interceptions being fast, Axi's dropping on B and C and infested being easy).

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If you're only doing survival/defense/excavation to farm keys, you're doing it wrong. Interception missions, for the most part, have the best drop rates for relics. Check the drop tables (CTRL+F to search for whatever relic you're looking for). Hasn't been updated since the Mag/Rhino Prime vault closed, but I imagine the drop chances for those relics were evenly distributed to the other relics.

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