[U21 Megathread] New Warframe: Harrow

[45neo]

Here is a suggestion for thurible to make it more viable, basically make it so it gives energy per second instead of energy for every kill, reduce the energy conversion rate to make thurible more balanced with energy per second then make it so when Harrow get's a headshot kill it will multiply the energy per second by 4 for a short period of time rather than the previous multiplying the energy for the kill by 4.

[DreamsmithJane]

18 hours ago, Kurambik said:

When in high levels he's lazy anyway because other players steal his kills.

Sorry, what? Who is stealing your kills at levels where World on Fire or Maim's bleed don't instantly kill? Mag and Nidus can make things difficult by moving enemies around, but as soon as players have to start putting in effort to kill, you shouldn't be having trouble contributing. That's the whole point. If other players are able to kill so fast you literally can't do anything, you're not needed anyway because the squad is laughably overpowered for the mission. In high levels, nobody is stealing your kills. If you can't kill, play higher level missions. If you still can't kill, improve your gunplay, or bring a more suitable (preferably longer range and/or more accurate) weapon. In any case, Harrow should still be the one earning the health and energy paybacks.

[jragonsoul]

6 hours ago, AshenHaze said:

I don't think it's that difficult to carry around some extra ammo/energy pizzas if your teammates are already at that level. There is more than one way to effectively 'support' if you liking being a force multiplier. I, for one, always carry extra energy/ammo pizzas and Ancient Healer specters. If the folk that made the shield specters didn't hate my guts I'd have those too (but I like the Red Veil too much).

Hell, even certain weapons can effectively just be considered a force multiplier in terms of CC. Generally those are the despised status weapons.

Oh I bring hundred's of large Ammo, Energy, Health and Shield Pizzas. They are life savers sometimes.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

hello. i love this frame.

mechanically to me it's the most well designed in a long, LONG time. number wise... well that's kinda hard to judge considering the generally broken energy economy. if that wasn't the case the energy gain of thurible would be quite broken i guess (and should definitely be looked at should we ever tackle overall energy system). but the way it works is just so infinitely more satisfying than EV (just get rid of it already ;P), it's not even funny! i love the fact you are deprived of any offensive capabilites while charging it, but with your parcouring being intact it forces you to stay mobile to stay alive. i love the way how after that offensive, active gameplay (headshots) rewards you the most. THIS is how you do it people! always having to have an eye on your skill durations to avoid shortfalls... harrow is stress to play AND THAT'S GREAT!! the synergy between his one and two, the way the former is an apt, reliable one handed bnb skill; the non-recastability (=quasi cooldown) on his 4 to avoid exploitation and relatively short duration: perfect!

if you can't get ANY kills in a mission at all imo that really isn't harrow's design fault, it's braindead bs like resonant banshee that has to be looked at. make THIS guy the benchmark! ;)

edit: small tip: he syngergizes very well with amprex, a crit based AOE weapon that already greatly benefits from headshots itself... try it with ruinous extension and tell me again harrow can't get kills!

DE, you did it this time! this frame has already joined my small rank of "mains" and i feel he's there to stay. kudos!

p.s.: less importantly i like his visual design, too (right down to idle animations), but that's really just a matter of taste.

another edit: i also wanna congratulate DE's release policy this time: it's deffo better to release a frame in a slightly underwhelming state and then buff it in a nuanced way according to feedback than to release it with totally ridiculous stats like limbo's post-rework ult then having to nerf it with the playbase complaining you take their ez-mode away. this kind of consideration benefits both sides eventually.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Kurambik]

11 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Sorry, what? Who is stealing your kills at levels where World on Fire or Maim's bleed don't instantly kill? Mag and Nidus can make things difficult by moving enemies around, but as soon as players have to start putting in effort to kill, you shouldn't be having trouble contributing. That's the whole point. If other players are able to kill so fast you literally can't do anything, you're not needed anyway because the squad is laughably overpowered for the mission. In high levels, nobody is stealing your kills. If you can't kill, play higher level missions. If you still can't kill, improve your gunplay, or bring a more suitable (preferably longer range and/or more accurate) weapon. In any case, Harrow should still be the one earning the health and energy paybacks.

In high levels, warframes like Nova, Equinox, Octavia and Mag and probably a handful of others that I'm forgetting can still nuke rooms due to their AoE scaling damage but I was not REALLY talking about them. I was talking more about people carrying AoE weapons such as Zarrs, Zenistars, Kulstars, Tonkors, Jat Kittags, Sobeks, etc. I was talking about weapon kills contributing minorly to the energy and health. It encourages people to use their weapons more rather than just spam abilities 

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

When can he come to console ?

[blasron]

I find Harrow flaw.

He is a support frame that require to kill, to support his allied. Trying to kill when ember, excal, nidus, inaros is present can be pretty hard.

he NEED to head shot to heal people around him making is healing pretty useless when you can have Obe and tryn in your team.

He have to sacrifice his own shield to generate time for his penance making him dependent of mod such has guardian. He also absolutely need to spam his 1 to get enought over-shield to get max time.

Thurible Need too long to start up and is also dependant of natural talent to get it fast, so you can fight back. This skill make you highly vulnerable while you are casting it.

Covenant is alright with a high duration build since it make you and your team invulnerable. Pretty much the only good support skill here.

His passif is not really a passif, it's a necessary thing when your frame have to sacrifice a large amount of shield to get you power at a maximum time.

 

he is good but i would rather build myself with eff and grab lots of energies plate over taking Harrow for a long run

[PsiWarp]

9 minutes ago, blasron said:

he NEED to head shot to heal people around him making is healing pretty useless when you can have Obe and tryn in your team.

Nope. Why do people keep thinking Penance requires headshots at all? Just doing damage is enough to heal teammates in Affinity Range.

The only ability that requires actual kills is Thurible.

[blasron]

17 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

Nope. Why do people keep thinking Penance requires headshots at all? Just doing damage is enough to heal teammates in Affinity Range.

The only ability that requires actual kills is Thurible.

Because if it was from only hit it would actually show the number of health point it give out. I try with body, arm,leg shot and the only thing that show up that it give away health is head shot. So its either a display bug or it's a case of head shot

[Brasten]

Major bug or design flaw:

Penance cannot be used in Shield-less Nightmare missions. Without shields Penance won't activate, and Condemn can't add Shields during this mode.

[low1991]

On 6/29/2017 at 11:08 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

-text-

My feedback:

• #1 is half decent for it's CC and overshield buffs, but in terms of area of effect it's weak and almost non-existence
• #2 primary effect seems to be the life leech effect, it's decent and be awesome if it's an aura which give nearby allies life leech effects. It's secondary effect  (+reload speed + fire speed) is non-existence.
• #3 totally useless in terms of energy gain, (there's focus + pizzas) even when solo. Again, effect comes into play when killed by caster.
• #4, Primary effect of temporary immunity is nice, the secondary effect of + crit %/dmg is decent. Seems to be well-balanced for the time being.

[pl0d]

Sorry for my english in advance. 

Im realy enjoying harrow and his fluidity in combat, but omg, can we get reed of skill animations that stops you in place, like his 4th ability making you stop for 1 sec to cast. Is this realy necessary to have? 

Sorry for outburst. 

[EinheriarJudith]

10 hours ago, pl0d said:

Sorry for my english in advance. 

Im realy enjoying harrow and his fluidity in combat, but omg, can we get reed of skill animations that stops you in place, like his 4th ability making you stop for 1 sec to cast. Is this realy necessary to have? 

Sorry for outburst. 

there is nothing wrong with his ult stopping movement because you are completely invulnerable the entire cast animation and some seconds after. what people fail to understand is you need to run into a group of enemies and use it. the whole point of its absorb function is being under direct fire. it also works when using it on top of someone you are going to res as long as you are under direct fire you can rack up the bonus while rezing. really people need to understand one simple fact. harrow is an FRONTLINE support. if you dont like frontline trinity still exists because oberon as well is mid to close range support. with harrow DE has broken the concept of traditional backline support and i love it.

Edited July 17, 2017 by EinheriarJudith

[EinheriarJudith]

On 7/14/2017 at 1:10 AM, Brasten said:

Major bug or design flaw:

Penance cannot be used in Shield-less Nightmare missions. Without shields Penance won't activate, and Condemn can't add Shields during this mode.

instead of no shield DE can swap it out for reduced shield. or i dont know let us chose modifiers when we select missions and not just keep them exclusive to nightmare and sortie? though that is for another topic ^_^

Edited July 17, 2017 by EinheriarJudith

[Torrempesta]

Harrow is just useless.

Useless in low level missions because, yes. those are low level missions; and useless in high level missions because players who join those high level missions just have heavy forma'd WFs and just are WFs that kill everything... I can't run around outside Mesa's 50m range (or Exca 20m or Equinox 30m) for granting me some buff to give the others and then come back to them wasting 15 seconds of my ability hoping that I will be able to kill someone so that I can grant them some Power Regen...

Come on... it just sounds silly!

It IS silly! 
And what's wrong in giving him a more passive style? Mesa is passive as hell! So Equinox and Nova! press 4 and wait.

Wow! Such effort! Much struggle! That's not passive at all!

Come on... I really can't understand how can you defend this WF which, again, is not completely horrible, but just needs some fixes!

1 grants 1/2 the shield on already rooted enemy
Mobile 2
Mobile 3 and "universal" buff on kill
Faster 4 animation

That's all.

[Buzkyl]

11 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

 

Useless in low level missions because, yes. those are low level missions; and useless in high level missions because players who join those high level missions just have heavy forma'd WFs and just are WFs that kill everything... I can't run around outside Mesa's 50m range (or Exca 20m or Equinox 30m) for granting me some buff to give the others and then come back to them wasting 15 seconds of my ability hoping that I will be able to kill someone so that I can grant them some Power Regen...

And exactly what is stopping you, as Harrow from bringing high power weapons so you to can "everything" on higher levels? On sorties, MoT and other challenging areas Harrow has plenty of opportunities to score kills.

Equinox Maim nuke only occurs in bursts, at best and requires charging, Mesa is 50M in 1 given direction. 

Harrow is capable of making any weapon deal obscenely high amount of damage while buffing fire rate and reload speed (greatly boosting dps) but players still complain about other players stealing their kills? Sounds like a player issue than a frame issue.

[Blacque]

Well I finally found a build that feels okay with Harrow.  It's kind of fun and aside from monitoring all of the timers it's been working for me.  What bothers me however is that I never know if what I'm doing is of any benefit.  At the end of the mission I will however know that I will do the least amount of damage unless I bring a Zarr... maybe.  Perhaps DE can add support stats but we'll see.  So far the only complaint I have is the energy gain not working from the team or so it seems.  The time invested in not killing (Which to me requires Natural Talent) to gain energy on body/head shots is super invaluable considering how fast he eats energy at higher levels.  With AoE frames like Ember, Nova and Saryn however, Harrow ends up standing around providing energy at best, wasting his time at worst.  Toxin as always will ruin you at high levels but modding can offset that (For a time).  He definitely feels like you're doing a lot and some more obvious signs that you're helping would be greatly appreciated.  Perhaps allies that are under Harrow's gifts have Harrow's energy aura, or enemies hit by crits being super exploded?  So far it's been fun using him however, definitely an unsung hero in the team I guess? 

[Mokkun108]

I couldn't care less about this new frame, but as a player which experienced a lot of co op play in long missions with Harrow I have some feedback:

1) Their animation for ability which looks like swirling mass around the allied player and sentinel gets very annoying after 20-30 minuts of looking at it, Sentinel now 200% bigger and takes up a third of the screen. I don't want to see other frame's animation affect my frame and my eyes like this.

2) When the invulnerability ends the critical buff recieved was 50%. I don't know how much is achievable with power strength, but in my opinion 50% is a bit too high if it is additive.

3) Max duration invulnerability 17 secs. I dislike the idea of making Harrow old trinity take two/trinity reincarnation.

[Torrempesta]

9 hours ago, Buzkyl said:

And exactly what is stopping you, as Harrow from bringing high power weapons so you to can "everything" on higher levels? On sorties, MoT and other challenging areas Harrow has plenty of opportunities to score kills.

 

The fact that Mesa, Equinox, Ember, Excalibur and even Frost exist. That's why.

1 hour ago, Mokkun108 said:

2) When the invulnerability ends the critical buff recieved was 50%. I don't know how much is achievable with power strength, but in my opinion 50% is a bit too high if it is additive.

3) Max duration invulnerability 17 secs. I dislike the idea of making Harrow old trinity take two/trinity reincarnation.

2) +50% crit chance is not that much for most weapons. Yes it is a buff, but only for a weapon that already has 75% crit chance.

3) if you build full duration you won't have enough power strength for the crit buff.

[Buzkyl]

12 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

The fact that Mesa, Equinox, Ember, Excalibur and even Frost exist. That's why.

2) +50% crit chance is not that much for most weapons. Yes it is a buff, but only for a weapon that already has 75% crit chance.

3) if you build full duration you won't have enough power strength for the crit buff.

Stop playing on Low levels, because no way in hell is Ember or Frost 'stealing" skills on anything other that low level fodder enemies. Also You repeated the same point without addressing the counter arguements.

• Equinox Maim burst is just that, a burst of damage, and requires decent charging on higher levels
• Mesa stealing kills makes no sense as she can only aim in 1 direction, which leaves you plenty of opportunities to get atleast 1 kill in the direction she isn't facing.

Bring better weapons and harrow has no issue getting kills.

 

Also a 50% additive crit buff is massive for most weapons example: Kulstar, Quanta, Ogris, Tigris ect and that buff becomes 200% on a headshot (which you should be aiming for anyway considering thurible), bringing it into red crit territory. 

Also The crit buff scales with damage absorbed so bonus duration increases actually leave more opportunity for harrow to absorb damage and reach the cap. 

[EinheriarJudith]

4 hours ago, Buzkyl said:

Stop playing on Low levels, because no way in hell is Ember or Frost 'stealing" skills on anything other that low level fodder enemies. Also You repeated the same point without addressing the counter arguements.

• Equinox Maim burst is just that, a burst of damage, and requires decent charging on higher levels
• Mesa stealing kills makes no sense as she can only aim in 1 direction, which leaves you plenty of opportunities to get atleast 1 kill in the direction she isn't facing.

Bring better weapons and harrow has no issue getting kills.

 

Also a 50% additive crit buff is massive for most weapons example: Kulstar, Quanta, Ogris, Tigris ect and that buff becomes 200% on a headshot (which you should be aiming for anyway considering thurible), bringing it into red crit territory. 

Also The crit buff scales with damage absorbed so bonus duration increases actually leave more opportunity for harrow to absorb damage and reach the cap. 

EXACTLY! to tell you the truth buzkyl what is leaving a bad taste in my mouth is this notion of kill stealing people have. in warframe we are a team if the team is doing really well thats good. if they are killing fast again thats a good thing. this hogwash about kill stealing needs to disappear.

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

Harrow and Zenistar = health always topped out 

put zenistar disc in a good spot while you shoot in the other direction works well with harrow.

 

[achromos]

Harrow is actually pretty strong, contrary to what several people are saying.  I will admit that leveling him up has been a pain but after 3-4 forma he really comes into his own and I personally enjoy his play style.

people complaining about other warframes "Stealing" kills and rendering Harrow "useless" have made one simple mistake. 

They think Harrow is supposed to be a passive support frame, or worse a Nuke frame with 1:1 DPS abilities ( World on Fire, Maim, Spore, ect.) when he is more an assault frame.  What I mean by that is because of his #2, he can essentially make most any weapon that much more viable.  If you don't bring a strong weapon, then you aren't going to get kills.  Not to mention the crit bonus from using his #4 appropriately.  Using and managing these abilities efficiently and pairing him up with good weapons that benefit from being equipped by him that can kill multiple enemies in one go (like say the Opticor) can produce impressive results. 

That said, while he CAN be a solid Damage Dealer, all of his damage is going to be coming from weapons which in most cases cannot compare to the quick and easy method that certain DPS abilities can... with one caveat.   Most of these abilities (with the exception of Maim, which needs to be charged in the first place) fall off quickly in the face of strong enemies.

While you will never receive a argument from me that he isn't a pain to level up, after investing the time and effort to learn his play style I have reached a understanding with how to play Harrow.  He is a frame that "Can" support his team, but I see him as more of a front-line "Assault" frame.  A frame that if played correctly even deep into Late Game can scale very well.  I'm talking 60+ Minutes in Mot or Sortie 3.  None of his abilities "Fall off" and while shields get progressively less and less useful as time goes on and enemies get stronger, having 3,000+ shields is at least enough to take a single shot in most cases unless you eat a really bad hit.

Personally, I feel like this is a well made frame with solid abilities that need the player to understand the mechanics behind them (keeping both timers up, I mean his #2 and #3) in order for him to shine.  If you don't like timer management, and if you don't like using weapons, if you don't like being able to chain down the map with his very effective #1, if you don't like giving yourself or your team breathing room with his #4 or extra energy with his #3 (he is no trinity, but nothing to scoff at).  Then this warframe isn't for you, however I'd personally say give Harrow several forma if you hate him based on "Feeling Weak" and look up tried and tested builds.  I was frustrated by Harrow before leveling him up fully, afterwards it might have been having my build complete or shifting my playstyle but he feels very good personally.

Edited July 20, 2017 by achromos

[Torrempesta]

On 19/7/2017 at 5:05 AM, EinheriarJudith said:

what is leaving a bad taste in my mouth is this notion of kill stealing people have

It is a problem if the lack of enemies to kill affect my enjoyment of the game! Or my utility for the team...

17 hours ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

Harrow and Zenistar

Yes, nice idea... but what about those player who still NEED TO GET THE 300 LOG IN REWARD??? I have to wait 9 days for Zenistar! What about someone who has 40 days of log in rewards?!

6 hours ago, achromos said:

They think Harrow is supposed to be a passive support frame

Never thought that, never wrote it.

He is clearly an active warframe, but a support warframe dependent on weapons in a group of WFs whose abilities just kill faster than any weapon.

Hell, Mesa can hit with pin point precision the toe of a 120 lvl enemy for 40k damages 50 meters away!
Ember and, more important, Banshee can kill behind walls!
Equinox too!

How can I REACH enemies if we have so many WFs capable of such feats?!

I have never been a fan of Ash, for example, but I really can't understand why they nerfed him so much in a context where we have characters that can kill tons of enemies for tons of damages in an instant!

And I am talking about Ash! Who WAS a dps!
What chance Harrow has got?
His buffs are completely random! Last few seconds!

Banshe can multiply your team output damages by 6 times for seconds and seconds!
Nova, well, you know about her!

And we are saying that a +50% flat crit chance is OP? A bonus that MUST be obtained by HOPING the enemies will focus you before they get gunned down by other team mates?

Come on!
Stop playing solo and try some objectivity in a fairly high lvl mission...

 

P.S.:
I am not hating Harrow, I WANT to like him! That's why he needs a buff!

It's Oberon all over again.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Torrempesta

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

if someone else on your team continuously and effortlessly destroys the whole map leaving literally nothing for you to kill:

1. support is clearly not needed anyway, which is what harrow primarily is about

2. that's most likely a design flaw concerning the DPS frame, not harrow. damage dealer frames are nice n all but if they're able to make every other frame type (and also 300+ weapons at our disposal) completely redudant, well, that's OP / unbalanced in my book at least.

harrow doesn't need buffs.