Feedback: Multishot - and why it needs to change drastically or go away.

[Ced23Ric]

Oh hai! ~a lolcat in armour hides behind a massive tower shield.~

This will probably raise some ire, but Multishot is inherently, conceptually broken. Let's get one thing out of the way first - the idea is hella cool. You pull the trigger and more bullets fly, that's wicked. The problem with this manifold, though. Let's list what Multishot actually does, in direct and derived game terms:

• Multiplies base damage.
  
• Multiplies elemental damage.
  
• Adds clipsize.
  
• Adds maximum ammo.
  
• Adds fire rate.
  
• Cuts TTK by it's percentage.
  
• Adds accuracy (through hits per shot).
  

Subsequently, it does even more.

• Skews true weapon performance.
  
• Luck of drop seperates player efficiency vastly.
  
• Makes enemies harder to balance to player power.
  
• Requires new ways to mitigate damage: larger health pools and global damage reduction.
  

As a direct result of Multishot, everything a player can do is either hard(er) or hilariously easy. The gap Multishot produces is so far, you couldn't Slashdash-MagPul-Wallrun over it.

So what do, if not outright remove it? Bring it back in line by cutting it's advantages down.

A suggestion for a new Multishot:

• Shoots more bullets, as before.
  
• That bullet deals base damage, unmodified by mods, just upgrade nodes.
  
• Deals no added elemental damage.
  
• Eats up the ammo for the additional shot.
  
• The new shot is subjective to the same spreadcone as regular shots.
  
• Multishots mods only stack additively - 75% + 50% = 125%, so 4 shots become 9 shots.
  

That turns Multishot into a more burst-y fire rate mod with advantages (no delay) and disadvantages (no added damage) compared to those.

Disclaimer: I have Multishot mods. I don't use them, because they destroy the game's play. That is a personal choice, which does not influence the Feedback - just to explain that I am not hating because I never got any Multishot myself.

Thank you for your considerations.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Ced23Ric

[Mortarion]

I agree with you, but mostly on just nerfing the Multishots for rifles. I think Multishots on shotguns are mostly ok, but they could use a little adjusting.

[Ced23Ric]

Same difference for shotguns. If 8 pellets with all additional damage turn into 24 pellets with all additional damage, it's the same thing in green.

[sambarpowder]

I think they should do a percentage of the actual total damage dealt by the regular bullets, and not consume extra ammo. Somewhere near 30-50%.

Just a thought.

[AsianJoyKiller]

I think this is a brillant idea.

It's disheartening to see bullet sponge enemies arise just to balance out certain weapon builds.

[RainDreamer]

I find the multishot to be extremely helpful in the case of a non-supercharged weapon. My non-supercharge strun at lvl 30, without mods would be quite useless when having to used against the grinner in the new planets, but with multishot mods, it can actually kill things at that level. So while I wouldn't defend against how overly powerful it is, nor I would be against a change, I find it too good of a crutch for players that do not have supercharged weapon yet to help them join new content.

Edited February 1, 2013 by RainDreamer

[Ced23Ric]

I find it too good of a crutch for players that do not have supercharged weapon yet to help them join new content.

Yet it is not available to those as a regular basis, but a few far in between. And yet, it absolutely destroys the lategame for those who have the supercharged gear.

[Kobalt]

If the problem is scaling, why not simply have the mod scale inversely to weapon stats. Make the mod rare, but non-scaling [No % listed for effectiveness, rarity is increased by how early the mod can be used]. The higher the fire rate, the lower the chance of getting an extra shot. The more pellets your shotgun fires, less pellets will be added!

In this way, the mod could be used to super charge underpowered guns allowing for style/feel choices into late game and could still be used on supercharged gear to a lesser effect. If this scaling is strong enough [done right], it could be put in line with the damage increase mods making it not always the best choice.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Kobalt

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I feel like if you make multishot consume ammo, it'll just be like fire rate except that it will be multiplicative with it so you'll have to build ammo mods in as well. Wouldn't you just be better off building damage then?

[DigitalDamage]

I feel like if you make multishot consume ammo, it'll just be like fire rate except that it will be multiplicative with it so you'll have to build ammo mods in as well. Wouldn't you just be better off building damage then?

Exactly, I brought up that point a few days ago when someone commented on multishot. Multishot has many appeals, but one of its core appeals is that it does more damage without utilizing ammo; if multishot has to be nerfed then nerf the damage it provides, not the utility. A lot of the previous suggestions are great (make it deal base weapon damage, reduce multishot bullet damage by a percentage) and would help bring multishot back in line with other mods.

[Ced23Ric]

If Multishot does not eat up ammo, it's superior to fire rate, by far. It's also +clip, +max ammo, in one mod. If one mod attribute can do three things, why bother with the other three?

[Volt_Cruelerz]

If Multishot does not eat up ammo, it's superior to fire rate, by far. It's also +clip, +max ammo, in one mod. If one mod attribute can do three things, why bother with the other three?

If it's just dealing base weapon damage and does not cost ammo, I feel like it could be sufficiently unique. Building multishot could be a way of making your gun more ammo-efficient whereas building rate would make your gun more time-efficient perhaps? I guess you'd have to buff rate mods in the process though...

The thing is with what you suggested is that if it does base damage and costs ammo, I don't see why rate wouldn't just be better.. Rate gives you additional rounds per unit time and those rounds also have mods stacked onto them. MS wouldn't and for that reason, I feel like you'd be better off in all circumstances just going with rate...

[DetergentPod]

I don't see how multi shot is OP from my experience. I have a 52.7% MS mod (the only MS mod I found so far) on my gorgon and when fighting boss it doesn't do much tbh. Same constant damage unless I get a few lucky crit. 17,19,20,22 and crit only go as high as 54 or 24. Depending on boss armor. I always have to use extra ammo clip for fighting boss that are above level 40. So can someone please explain to me in certain situation as to how MS is so OP currently. As the name state Pulling the trigger once to fly 1 bullet can sometime make 2 come out for the price of 1. The only way to nerf MS is to put a limit on the percentage. Make the max 90% or 80% and you can't go any higher than that even if you stack more, but keep the damage the same as regular shots.

[Mak_Gohae]

I find the multishot to be extremely helpful in the case of a non-supercharged weapon. My non-supercharge strun at lvl 30, without mods would be quite useless when having to used against the grinner in the new planets, but with multishot mods, it can actually kill things at that level. So while I wouldn't defend against how overly powerful it is, nor I would be against a change, I find it too good of a crutch for players that do not have supercharged weapon yet to help them join new content.

This is a thing to consider.... not everyone had super charge weapons so the few mod slots they have, i guess, have to compensate for not having all those extra bonuses and slots.

[Ced23Ric]

Multishot, 4x 75% = +300% = 4 shots for 1 bullet. Entirely probable loadout. How this not OP to you? See the rest in the OP, I listed it.

[DigitalDamage]

If Multishot does not eat up ammo, it's superior to fire rate, by far. It's also +clip, +max ammo, in one mod. If one mod attribute can do three things, why bother with the other three?

As Volt said in the comment above me (at the time it was the comment above me), if the previous suggestions are implemented and multishot just does base damage with a .5 modifier on base damage--and without elemental/damage modifiers--it becomes a "fairly decent" mod.

Let's take the Strun, for example. Let's say this Strun is equipped with 2 +75% multishot mods, and we use multishot with the modifiers that I stated above, let's try to get a rough idea of the probable damage output.

NOTE: Damage calculations with shotguns regards every pellet as a seperate "bullet". Thus, they have to be accounted for individually. I also won't be calculating for armor deductions.

Base damage: 120 (12 damage * 10 pellets = 120)

~~~~

Upgrade Nodes: 180--nodes stack multiplicatively ([we must first get damage per shot] 12 damage* 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 = 17.5 [rounded up to 18]; 18 damage * 10 pellets = 180 damage)

+

Multishot Multiplier: +140% ([we're using base damage] 12 damage * .5 modifier = 6 damage; 6 damage * 14 pellets = 84 damage)

Total: 264 Damage.

~~~~

Now let's take 2 simple +25% damage mods and slap them on the Strun.

Upgrade Nodes: 60 (10 pellets* 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 = 14.64 [rounded up to 15]; 15 damage * 12 pellets = 180 damage; however, since we're using damage mods we must only apply the bonus the upgrade nodes provide, in this case the bonus is 60: 180-120=60)

+

Damage Mods: 180 ([remember, every shot is accounted for seperately] 12 damage * 1.5 modifier = 18 damage; 18 damage * 10 = 180)

Total: 240 Damage

~~~~

As you can see, Multishot will still do more damage, but not by a significant amount; this small difference is justified once you consider the fact that Multishot is only available through blue mods and are much more scarce than +Damage mods. The added utility of conservation of ammo is also marginalized when you consider that +damage mods can provide almost the same ammount of "bang-for-buck".

Obviously, this is only a combination of theory-crafting and layman's mathematics but I hope my time wasn't wasted in trying to provide justification for my opinions.

EDIT: Tried to make things look neater.

EDIT 2: Also, I just noticed, but by your logic +damage mods are also inherently broken because they also provide +clip/+ max ammo; and why would you need more fire rate when you just kill things outright in fewer shots? I hope you're not offended but personally, I think you're blowing things out of proportion.

Edited February 1, 2013 by DigitalDamage

[Ced23Ric]

I retract my statement under a single premise: 25% damage is peak damage, so for the math to hold up, 75% must be peak multishot.

If MS caps at 75%, and uses the proposed changes from the OP and the thread, the ammo savings would be an additional, but weaker bonus to almost similar damage, which would subsequently hit "harder" by armour, to level it out.

I think we are onto something here.

[DigitalDamage]

I retract my statement under a single premise: 25% damage is peak damage, so for the math to hold up, 75% must be peak multishot.

Whoops, I forgot about that :S

My bad, I haven't found anything past 75% so I just assumed that was the cap...

I think we are onto something here.

I agree, this might be a good change.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

So at this point you are suggesting multishot be made to deal 50% node damage of the weapon? Why not just build more RoF?

[DigitalDamage]

So at this point you are suggesting multishot be made to deal 50% node damage of the weapon? Why not just build more RoF?

Cuz ammo

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I thought you wanted multishot to cost ammo?

[Meltina]

Wouldn't it be just simpler to reduce multishots percentage. The real problem that makes multishot stick out is it has 98% damage increase mod vs a 25% damage mod. The reason multishot still would be a blue mod when its lowered to 25% cap would be that it still scales your total damage instead of your base damage.

For example a 20% fire mod + 20% elec mod + 20% multishot Snipetron hits for 100 normal, 20 fire, 20, elec, and fires an extra bullet 1 out of every 5 times So averages to 120 normal 24 fire 24 electric a shot.

While adding a 20% ice mod instead of multishot would be 100 normal, 20 fire, 20 ice, and 20 electricty damage.

168 damage with multishot vs 160 without.

Multishot already competes when its at similar amouts to other damage mods. The thing that makes multishot stand out is the mods cap at 98% instead of 25%. Too keep its power as a blue mod and to give it strength to make up for being unreliable it should cap a around 50% per mod.

We also must remember to allow low level multishot mods to still be effective. A 5% chance to multishot would not be worth using a mod node on. Damage mods also have to be looked at for the boar. Try sticking a damage mod below 20% on a level 1 boar. It adds less than 1 damage per pellet so the mods add 0 damage. We don't want issues like this to occur with lower levels of the multishot mod.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Meltina

[Ced23Ric]

No, percentages still don't take other mods into account, which is the violence of Multishot. And if Multishot is not roughly in line with the rest, it's broken. Currently, it does everything. It can copy most mods by itself and copy all other mods, including elementals, Puncture, and that is just conceptually broken - and brought us Bosses that are ridiculous bulletsponges.

[DigitalDamage]

I thought you wanted multishot to cost ammo?

I don't think I mentioned that, if I did then it was probably miswording on my part because I strongly feel that multishot shouldn't cost ammo.

Wouldn't it be just simpler to reduce multishots percentage. The real problem that makes multishot stick out is it has 98% damage increase mod vs a 25% damage mod. The reason multishot still would be a blue mod when its lowered to 25% cap would be that it still scales your total damage instead of your base damage.

For example a 20% fire mod + 20% elec mod + 20% multishot Snipetron hits for 100 normal, 20 fire, 20, elec, and fires an extra bullet 1 out of every 5 times So averages to 120 normal 24 fire 24 electric a shot.

While adding a 20% ice mod instead of multishot would be 100 normal, 20 fire, 20 ice, and 20 electricty damage.

168 damage with multishot vs 160 without.

Multishot already competes when its at similar amouts to other damage mods. The thing that makes multishot stand out is the mods cap at 98% instead of 25%. Too keep its power as a blue mod and to give it strength to make up for being unreliable it should cap a around 50% per mod.

We also must remember to allow low level multishot mods to still be effective. A 5% chance to multishot would not be worth using a mod node on. Damage mods also have to be looked at for the boar. Try sticking a damage mod below 20% on a level 1 boar. It adds less than 1 damage per pellet so the mods add 0 damage. We don't want issues like this to occur with lower levels of the multishot mod.

I think I already tried to address this with my suggestion (which was really just a bunch of other suggestions).

The problem with Multishot is that it scales exponentially with other mods. That's why I suggested that Multishot still retain the percentage that it has now, except that it would have a .5 modifier and the extra shots only deal base damage (multiplied by the .5 modifier) and also NOT apply elemental bonuses. These extra multishot bullets would still be able to be modified by +damage/+armor pen; however, the Multishot modifier of .5 would always be applied first. This would keep the shots from scaling tremendously.

Also, only one element is used during damage calculations. If you have 2 different +25% elemental mods only one element is used, but you still get the effect of the other element.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

If multishot doesn't cost ammo, what's to differentiate it from damage%? I feel like if it doesn't have ammo, it's just damage and if it does, it's rate...

Also, I thought piercing technically counted as an element..

Edited February 1, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz