Please don't nerf Trin. And let me tell you why.

[TyrannisPax]

Seriously I don't know how the hell people are comparing Zenurik's 4 energy regen per sec, with maybe a little speed boost if you have that skill enabled, to literal tripling of energy. Zenurik's regen is like a passive, at the most it'll let you reach an ability that's just out of reach when you're in a tight spot. And it'll be completely stopped by any draining enemies. Trinity will let you spam any ability non stop for as long as she has energy, regardless of drain. The two have barely anything in common.

[Acos]

I don't feel like she is. Enemies have been adapted and changed so that we can't simply roll over them by spamming our powers at them, which in itself has reduced the potency of Trinity's energy replenishment. Blessing is powerful, but I feel like it needs to be since in Warframe you can go from 100% to dead in a few seconds. People die with Trinity all the time simply because nobody is hawking the HP bars that closely. Her personal shield is powerful but there are plenty of units now that can disrupt that and she is very squishy when one of those game elements pop up. Trinity has very limited means of crowed control and can only occupy two dangerous enemies while leaving the rest to the rest of the party. She is a force multiplier to be sure, but she is quite weak by herself. 

Trinity is definitely useful in the hands of an active player with an active team to capitalize on her abilities, and she will always inevitable die in the hands of an incompetent one with an incompetent party that is expecting her to magically do everything. She was extremely powerful in the early days of the game but enemies have become much more aggressive over the years as a response to our very high levels of advantage over them. I think she's in a good spot right now. 

Edited July 14, 2017 by Acos

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

On 7/8/2017 at 6:25 PM, _A_Illuminati_A_ said:

Trinity is very balanced.
She has already been nerfed. And infinite energy is NOT OverPowered. This is not debatable, anyone who has played the game for over 1000 hours can tell you that infinite energy is not OP.

Please reconsider any decisions you make to nerf her energy giving potential.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/6m4772/leave_trinity_alone/

 

"And let me tell you why" Alright...

"Because its not debatable" uhhh...wat?

"Anyone...can tell you that infinite energy is not OP" Ive played well over 1000 hours. Its OP.

"She has already been nerfed" Many frames can receive a nerf, and eventually wind up out of balance.

Those are not reasons. As someone who can claim WELL over 1000 hours, I insist that infinite energy IS OP. Not only does she keep her entire squad Full on energy, often making weapons redundant with how powerful some powers are, but it also means that she doesnt need to work to maintain two different defensive buffs, which will have her taking 4 damage for every 100 dealt to her, one of which instantaneously restores all health and shields, and another makes her immune to all status. 

Even without any power strength, and without efficiency, Energy Vampire nets 50 energy, and recovers the energy that the power cost aside from that. In fact, for Energy Vampire to have any consequence, at all, would require as much negative power strength as you can get (which would require someone to let a monkey do their modding for them). 

I dont think these powers should be nerfed, but I think she needs to work more for what she has.

[Borg1611]

30 minutes ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

"Anyone...can tell you that infinite energy is not OP" Ive played well over 1000 hours. Its OP.

"She has already been nerfed" Many frames can receive a nerf, and eventually wind up out of balance.

Those are not reasons. As someone who can claim WELL over 1000 hours, I insist that infinite energy IS OP. Not only does she keep her entire squad Full on energy, often making weapons redundant with how powerful some powers are, but it also means that she doesnt need to work to maintain two different defensive buffs, which will have her taking 4 damage for every 100 dealt to her, one of which instantaneously restores all health and shields, and another makes her immune to all status. 

I've played a decent amount of Warframe and I don't think it's overpowered at all in the current state of the game.

At higher level content what ability are you going to spam with infinite energy that's so overpowered? Nobody seems to even try to form a real argument numbers wise to prove that EV is overpowered, likely because they'd fail. Yea you can provide over 100 energy per second, but what are you doing with it that's so "overpowered." 

Very few abilities in the game can actually surpass top end weapons in scaling. Most mass AoE CCs can easily be sustained without EV at all. Some of the stronger scaling damage dealing abilities in the game don't even benefit from infinite energy. IE: an Octavia dropping a Mallet will never need energy from a Trinity. Nidus is completely self-sufficient and doesn't need an energy frame even with minimal if any efficiency (at least if there's enough mobs around for him to AoE). Rage using frames in general don't really need extra energy sources if they're getting hit at all.

Spamming something like Radial Javelin with max power strength or Reckoning or something is where EV shines, but you only really do that in an organized farming group and those abilities don't have infinite scaling. Even something like Saryn who often uses a low efficiency build doesn't need infinite energy from EV. Some energy from EV would make her easier to play (especially at the start of a mission where EV can let you skip waiting on Zenurik or using a consumable) and maybe up her damage slightly since she'd be able to cast more (even then she wouldn't really be using ALL of that energy that EV could provide), but even solo Saryn often uses a low efficiency build effectively. 

Some of the strongest abilities are channels that can't get energy from EV until they stop. Some of them don't even really need to stop much if at all or need EV to maintain high uptime. Something like Banshee could benefit from EV every so often, but Exalted Blade, Peacemaker or plenty of other channels can be built to be pretty strong without the need for Trinity at all. Equinox's 4 can be really strong without power strength, so there's no real need for him/her/it to sacrifice efficiency. 

In 90% of public games you join -duration EV is mostly wasted. It's probably more of a boon for quick thinking in a public group than it is for spammable abilities, and a Trinity with duration is more useful for group survival than -duration EV. -duration Trinity is also squishy as hell in high level content, so if you're not in an organized group hiding behind frames that are actually using the energy you're providing, it's not even really the best Trinity build to take to a group. Again, EV's biggest boon to a random group that's not specifically speced to take advantage of EV is just quick thinking energy and having a less annoying start to the mission before people turn Zenurik on or have gotten many orbs. 

I have a negative duration build on my Trinity that can give 198 energy with a radius larger than affinity range in 1.12 seconds. I hardly ever use her because I don't have a lot of friends that play the game and there's not much use for this build outside of an organized farming group. The friends I do play with sometimes don't really need infinite energy on the frames they play most. When I used to play Trinity A LOT (it's still one of my top played frames time wise) I used 99% DR builds more often than EV. Self-harm builds were more fun and more useful to a group than EV typically was outside of an organized AoE farm group. Then they nerfed it into oblivion and Trinity became a lot less fun to play. 

So again, I await someone to actually come in here and prove that EV is really this broken overpowered ability. Tell us how Vauban spamming max power strength Teslas is going to break the game! The people that feel it's overpowered have little more than their feeling. They say INFINITE ENERGY!!!!!KLJFD!!! loudly and in a tone that suggests it should just be obvious and accepted that INFINITE!!!!**********!!!!!!!!!!******!!!!!!!!! energy is "overpowered," but I reject this assumption based on actually playing the game and knowing that while infinite energy can make some frames more fun or easier to play (especially since waiting for zenurik to be up or dealing with RNG energy orbs or using consumables you have to stand near is not fun), it's not overpowered. The energy output of -duration EV surpasses what most frames would actually ever want to spend. It's certainly no more broken than invulnerability (which can be maintained by Wukong/Valkyr without EV) or infinite stealth (which can be maintained by multiple frames without EV, naramon or by Octavia for an entire group via her 3 without ever needing EV) or perma AoE CC (which doesn't require EV for most frames who can do it). Those things are far more powerful than EV could ever hope to be. Look at the game as a whole instead of shouting infinite energy is overpowered!!!! and you'll realize that it really isn't. This game isn't well balanced at all, but it's not EV that's the biggest outlier. 

Having said that, they can feel free to re-work the awful energy system and then nerf/re-design EV if they want while also replacing her 1 so that she still serves some purpose once there's no longer a need to nullify the awful aspects of the games outdated resource system. Also, Link should be a toggle. 

TLDR: EV's overpoweredness is vastly overstated. Take a look at the overall game and realize there are far bigger outliers in terms of power than EV (that don't need to be powered by EV). EV's main purpose is to skip past the obnoxious and outdated downsides of the resource system. 

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

2 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

At higher level content what ability are you going to spam with infinite energy that's so overpowered? Nobody seems to even try to form a real argument numbers wise to prove that EV is overpowered, likely because they'd fail. Yea you can provide over 100 energy per second, but what are you doing with it that's so "overpowered." 

 

 

Sonar. Pretty nice when youre in a squad with an unkillable Trinity, who funds a Painter Banshee. Brought my Frost in with that combo, and my Avalanche (which I could spam perpetually due to Trinity) was dealing around 50k per target. EV scales in damage too, and the damage dealt will also be absorbed by powers like Maim, so perfectly scaling powers providing infinite energy, infinite damage buffs, infinite toggle powers, and so on.

4 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

Very few abilities in the game can actually surpass top end weapons in scaling. Most mass AoE CCs can easily be sustained without EV at all. Some of the stronger scaling damage dealing abilities in the game don't even benefit from infinite energy. IE: an Octavia dropping a Mallet will never need energy from a Trinity. Nidus is completely self-sufficient and doesn't need an energy frame even with minimal if any efficiency (at least if there's enough mobs around for him to AoE). Rage using frames in general don't really need extra energy sources if they're getting hit at all.

 

Sustained, yes. Spammed perpetually? Not by any means.

7 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

Spamming something like Radial Javelin with max power strength or Reckoning or something is where EV shines, but you only really do that in an organized farming group and those abilities don't have infinite scaling. Even something like Saryn who often uses a low efficiency build doesn't need infinite energy from EV. Some energy from EV would make her easier to play (especially at the start of a mission where EV can let you skip waiting on Zenurik or using a consumable) and maybe up her damage slightly since she'd be able to cast more (even then she wouldn't really be using ALL of that energy that EV could provide), but even solo Saryn often uses a low efficiency build effectively. 

I refer you to my first response. Just because the powers you listed dont have infinite scaling, does not mean a Trinity doesn not supplement. Sure, Octavia may not need that energy, but when a Rhino can perpetually supercharge her, or Banshee can paint all enemies, or any warframe can throw away efficiency for power strength, she still benefits from the support her team gains. Octavias damage scales already, but Banshee painting enemies will make her scaling damage multiply.

10 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

 

Some of the strongest abilities are channels that can't get energy from EV until they stop. Some of them don't even really need to stop much if at all or need EV to maintain high uptime. Something like Banshee could benefit from EV every so often, but Exalted Blade, Peacemaker or plenty of other channels can be built to be pretty strong without the need for Trinity at all. Equinox's 4 can be really strong without power strength, so there's no real need for him/her/it to sacrifice efficiency. 

 

 

"Pretty Strong without it" vs Pretty Strong forever with it. Do you not spot the disparity? 

12 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

I have a negative duration build on my Trinity that can give 198 energy with a radius larger than affinity range in 1.12 seconds. I hardly ever use her because I don't have a lot of friends that play the game and there's not much use for this build outside of an organized farming group. The friends I do play with sometimes don't really need infinite energy on the frames they play most. When I used to play Trinity A LOT (it's still one of my top played frames time wise) I used 99% DR builds more often than EV. Self-harm builds were more fun and more useful to a group than EV typically was outside of an organized AoE farm group. Then they nerfed it into oblivion and Trinity became a lot less fun to play. 

Well its no wonder you dont think Trinity is OP as hell. You're neutering her two most fantastic powers with negative duration, to gain the benefit to EV that you can gain by simply killing the target. Build for Blink. Its exponentially more powerful.

14 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

So again, I await someone to actually come in here and prove that EV is really this broken overpowered ability. Tell us how Vauban spamming max power strength Teslas is going to break the game! The people that feel it's overpowered have little more than their feeling. They say INFINITE ENERGY!!!!!KLJFD!!! loudly and in a tone that suggests it should just be obvious and accepted that INFINITE!!!!**********!!!!!!!!!!******!!!!!!!!! energy is "overpowered," but I reject this assumption based on actually playing the game and knowing that while infinite energy can make some frames more fun or easier to play (especially since waiting for zenurik to be up or dealing with RNG energy orbs or using consumables you have to stand near is not fun), it's not overpowered. The energy output of -duration EV surpasses what most frames would actually ever want to spend. It's certainly no more broken than invulnerability (which can be maintained by Wukong/Valkyr without EV) or infinite stealth (which can be maintained by multiple frames without EV, naramon or by Octavia for an entire group via her 3 without ever needing EV) or perma AoE CC (which doesn't require EV for most frames who can do it). Those things are far more powerful than EV could ever hope to be. Look at the game as a whole instead of shouting infinite energy is overpowered!!!! and you'll realize that it really isn't. This game isn't well balanced at all, but it's not EV that's the biggest outlier. 

And here is the problem with your logic. You are isolating too much. Trinity is mostly a support frame. When you look at most individual powers, the effects of EV may seem trivial. Where it is mistaken is in group composition. My Clan is regularly on the Leaderboards for endurance runs, because of EV. When running Frost, Trinity, Banshee, and Equinox, you have infinite scaling damage with zero effort involved. We had several instances where I fell asleep in an endurance at around 100 waves on Hydron, because it was so easy that we didnt even need to discuss tactique, and we ran out of other things to talk about. For forty five minutes, one squad member even recounted an old Scottish Pub story about 12 midgets, because we couldnt be bothered to actually pay attention to the game. 

21 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

 Link should be a toggle. 

Agreed. Common Ground Achieved.

22 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

EV's overpoweredness is vastly overstated. Take a look at the overall game and realize there are far bigger outliers in terms of power than EV (that don't need to be powered by EV). EV's main purpose is to skip past the obnoxious and outdated downsides of the resource system. 

Except that it is not overstated, as evident by the various group comp that can scale ad infinitum.

[Borg1611]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

Sonar. Pretty nice when youre in a squad with an unkillable Trinity, who funds a Painter Banshee. Brought my Frost in with that combo, and my Avalanche (which I could spam perpetually due to Trinity) was dealing around 50k per target. EV scales in damage too, and the damage dealt will also be absorbed by powers like Maim, so perfectly scaling powers providing infinite energy, infinite damage buffs, infinite toggle powers, and so on.

Sonar is overpowered, but you could simply change it mechanically so spots can't overlap. Then what would it matter if she could spam it infinitely? You can already cast it quite a bit without EV. I can spam Avalanche a lot with an efficiency build and no EV. Higher strength build certainly scales higher damage wise, but not infinitely. edit: Just to add, I solo sortie interceptions on Frost sometimes and can easily maintain CC in a massive area solo with no consumables or EV. 

Maim scales a lot with no need to stack power strength and can easily be maintained without EV at all.

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

Sustained, yes. Spammed perpetually? Not by any means.

40 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

Sure, but some AoE CC do not need to be spammed perpetually to be extremely effective. Vauban? NYX? Resonator from Octavia? There are tons of AoE CC abilities that are extremely powerful that are powerful without needing to be spammed at all. 

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

"Pretty Strong without it" vs Pretty Strong forever with it. Do you not spot the disparity? 

40 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

I mean, some of the abilities you were responding to in that quote are pretty strong forever WITHOUT EV as they can easily be maintained just with energy orbs. Banshee's quake was the only one in that section that would benefit greatly in being able to recover fast. The other abilities can do massive damage and be maintained without EV. Sure you could get a bit more strength on them and dump all efficiency, but they scale into really high level content without that strength anyway and simply not benefit greatly from EV. 

 

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

Well its no wonder you dont think Trinity is OP as hell. You're neutering her two most fantastic powers with negative duration, to gain the benefit to EV that you can gain by simply killing the target. Build for Blink. Its exponentially more powerful.

I wasn't intending to suggest that I only have one build on Trinity. I have a negative duration build doesn't mean "this is the only build I ever used on Trinity." I even specifically stated that I preferred blessing builds before they nerfed them. They were a lot more fun when self-harm was a thing. Now you just hit blessing, get your static DR % and away you go. The nerfs to blessing made the ability less interactive and interesting to use. 

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

And here is the problem with your logic. You are isolating too much. Trinity is mostly a support frame. When you look at most individual powers, the effects of EV may seem trivial. Where it is mistaken is in group composition. My Clan is regularly on the Leaderboards for endurance runs, because of EV. When running Frost, Trinity, Banshee, and Equinox, you have infinite scaling damage with zero effort involved. We had several instances where I fell asleep in an endurance at around 100 waves on Hydron, because it was so easy that we didnt even need to discuss tactique, and we ran out of other things to talk about. For forty five minutes, one squad member even recounted an old Scottish Pub story about 12 midgets, because we couldnt be bothered to actually pay attention to the game. 

I specifically stated that EV shines in organized groups more than it does in random public groups. Though, again, Equinox damage scaling doesn't even require EV at all. Overlapping sonar spots also aren't really a reason to nerf EV, they're a reason to nerf sonar so that spots can't overlap (if you think endless farming in organized groups really needs to be nerfed). 

Nothing you pointed out is because "EV is overpowered."

Edited July 14, 2017 by Borg1611

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

1 minute ago, Borg1611 said:

-Snip-

Not to sound reductive, but it seems like your argument hinges on the notion that not all powers "need" it, and therefore it is not OP. Im not arguing that powers arent good in their own right. I am arguing that infinite powers (especially those that do scale), is better than not being able to spam a power an infinite number of times. 

At the end of the day, there is no frame that doesnt perform better when the need of energy can be eschewed. This doesnt just make any frame function better either. This means you can mod them entirely differently. You can throw out efficiency, first off. You can also make more use of mods like Transient Fortitude, since infinite energy means you can cast more often, so negative duration isnt as harmful. It means that Energy pizzas do not need to take up an equipment slot. It means that you dont have as great of a need of mods like Vacuum, since you dont need Orbs on the spot, and by extension it means you have greater freedom when selecting companions. It means you dont need an energize set equipped for any reason, so instead of using Arcanes to gain energy, you can instead use arcanes that will increase your performance.

One thing in this game affects many things. EV literally trivializes two different stats (Duration and Efficiency). 

[EinheriarJudith]

the only change trinity needs is for well of healing to be like energy vampire and a small duration boost to link otherwise she is fine.

Edited July 14, 2017 by EinheriarJudith

[Borg1611]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

At the end of the day, there is no frame that doesnt perform better when the need of energy can be eschewed.

Octavia. Spamming her abilities literally serves no purpose whatsoever. 

Any AoE CC frame in which spamming the ability gives no greater benefit than casting it just enough to do what you need to do. Sure you could drop duration and spam it more, but why? It's just not needed and in many cases would just be more annoying.

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

One thing in this game affects many things. EV literally trivializes two different stats (Duration and Efficiency). 

I also would argue that being able to drop efficiency in a group with an energy support frame is just a good thing. Why shouldn't you be able to build differently in a group opposed to solo? The group should have some synergy to it if it's an organized group. I also wouldn't drop duration just because of EV for any number of abilities whether it be CC, DR, invulnerability or group buffs because not having to cast them as often is simply more convenient. Would you really want to spam Roar on Rhino rather than just casting it once every so often just because you have "infinite" energy? 

Energy pizzas are garbage design, I absolutely hate them, so anything that lets you avoid using them sounds good to me. 

Vacuum argument is completely ridiculous. I don't use vacuum because of energy orbs. 

The vast majority of Warframe players don't raid and don't even have access to energize without buying it, which most won't. Not that this really has anything to do with EV. 

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Fenrushak said:

Not to sound reductive, but it seems like your argument hinges on the notion that not all powers "need" it, and therefore it is not OP. Im not arguing that powers arent good in their own right. I am arguing that infinite powers (especially those that do scale), is better than not being able to spam a power an infinite number of times. 

The argument is that many powers are extremely powerful without it. It is not necessary at any level of content and is therefor not really overpowered. Many abilities can trivialize various content in this game without EV. EV is not required for any content in the game. It's powerful. It's useful. That doesn't mean it's overpowered in a game with a lot of seemingly "broken" or "overpowered" abilities. When you're talking about a game with perma invulnerability, CC or invisibility that can all easily be achieved without EV, it's just silly to try to argue that EV is broken overpowered in comparison to all these other things that exist. If you point out some endless farming comp that goes X hours and EV was part of the build, you can also likely point out several other comps as well as maybe some frames that could go just as long solo (most people don't bother trying to go that long because endless just isn't that fun or interesting to most people so I'm not sure how much competition you have on any given leaderboard, I didn't even know such a thing existed and would never bother looking at it or trying to compete on it because it sounds boring). Not to mention the map you used as an example doesn't have nullifiers so is trivial in general with AoE abilities that have infinite scaling. When you look at everything in the game, EV simply is not overpowered. It's just one powerful ability in a game with numerous powerful abilities. 

Though, again, I don't really have a problem with them eventually changing it. I would prefer they also change the baseline energy system in general so it's more consistent (not a fan of orbs) and allows more casting without energy frames/consumables/zenurik. Some frames would probably be more interesting if they replaced energy with a frame-specific thematic resource system. 

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

3 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

Octavia. Spamming her abilities literally serves no purpose whatsoever. 

You have tunnel vision. I agree that she doesnt benefit from spamming, but the comment this is a rebuttal toward said nothing about spamming. Just performing when energy efficiency can be eschewed. Even with Octavia, this means you can save one or two slots and equip other mods, so yes, even Octavia benefits. You even confirm that in in a group, modding different is better, so as much as you would love to hang your hat on spamming, that wasnt the point I was making in this instance. Octavia benefits as well. Thats not opinion. Thats math.

5 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

Any AoE CC frame in which spamming the ability gives no greater benefit than casting it just enough to do what you need to do. Sure you could drop duration and spam it more, but why? It's just not needed and in many cases would just be more annoying. 

What is annoying is irrelevant. Im annoyed at most infinite group comps, but I still use them. Many people do. And its not like Duration is the only stat around that can be dropped for another. If Energy isnt a problem, then one could equip at least two more mods. In the case of Octavia, squadding up with a Trinity means she can mod for more range and power strength, because she no longer needs to worry about Duration or efficiency. And so I reiterate: There is no frame that does not perform better when the need for energy can be eschewed.

9 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

Energy pizzas are garbage design, I absolutely hate them, so anything that lets you avoid using them sounds good to me. 

You have a preference. That is okay. It is irrelevant to the topic, but it is still okay. 

11 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

Vacuum argument is completely ridiculous. I don't use vacuum because of energy orbs. 

Congratulations. You have another way of doing things, and thats nice. Just because you dont use it does not mean its a valid point. I personally dont eat out of dumpsters, but I can still acknowledge that there are people who do, and its a problem for them. Therefore, its not ridiculous. The power involved with having Vacuum is great. You do not have to stop what you are doing to pick up energy and replenish your supply. In some cases, it is a direct buff. The most obvious instance is with Nekros and Desecrate. When compounding effects of health orbs with Equilibrium, Arcane Pulse and Health Conversion, Vacuum is as good as a direct buff.

14 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

The argument is that many powers are extremely powerful without it. It is not necessary at any level of content and is therefor not really overpowered...

Uhhh...okay. Just because they are extremely powerful without it does not mean they arent more powerful with it. That, and necessity does not dictate what is overpowered. There is not a single power that is necessary for any level of content. Try again?

17 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

The vast majority of Warframe players don't raid and don't even have access to energize without buying it, which most won't. Not that this really has anything to do with EV.  

But it does. Regardless of what number of players raid is irrelevant, because far more players have Arcanes than players who do raids. And how many people are willing to buy it or not has nothing to do with it. The fact remains that, someone who would have used Arcane Energize, while in a squad with Trinity, can instead focus on an Arcane that will increase their performance.

20 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

Many abilities can trivialize various content in this game without EV. EV is not required for any content in the game.

Again, this does nothing to change the standing of EV. Just because they can do well without it does nothing to change the fact that every frame will perform better with it.

21 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

When you're talking about a game with perma invulnerability, CC or invisibility that can all easily be achieved without EV, it's just silly to try to argue that EV is broken overpowered in comparison to all these other things that exist

Except that Valkyr can STILL maintain permanent invulnerability, only with EV she can free up two mod slots for additional power strength, augments, range, QOL mods, etc. How is that silly? I mean, for a person who talks about looking at the bigger picture, you sure do seem to get hung up on small irrelevant details. And EV makes all of the things you refer to even more powerful.

24 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

you can also likely point out several other comps as well as maybe some frames that could go just as long solo (most people don't bother trying to go that long because endless just isn't that fun or interesting to most people so I'm not sure how much competition you have on any given leaderboard,

Okay, so other problems exist. I dont deny that. This problem exists too.

26 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

I didn't even know such a thing existed and would never bother looking at it or trying to compete on it because it sounds boring)

Well, since your opinion and personal preferences apparently determine what is okay and what is not, I guess nothing matters if you personally find it boring. The Arrogance is real. I mean, with how many statements of yours are made from personal preference, its clear you see things through a particular lens. 

29 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

Not to mention the map you used as an example doesn't have nullifiers so is trivial in general with AoE abilities that have infinite scaling. 

This is why I hesitate to knock any one particular experience, because there are too many ways to adapt in this game. Nullifiers? Just bring a Miter. End of story.

30 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

It's just one powerful ability in a game with numerous powerful abilities. 

No other powers fundamentally change the way that every frame in the squad can mod, in that every frame can entirely scrap efficiency mods. Is it overpowered? Yes. Why? Because it removes an entire game mechanic from existence. Serious fathom warframe, if there was no such thing as energy. Really pretend, just for a moment, that they completely removed the energy bar. Think on that for a second, and recognize that EV is the functional equivalent.

 

 

 

 

 

[jazz]

Thanks for continuing to comment my dudes :) 

[Mudfam]

If EV is so overpowered then why do I never see one outside of LoR? And that's only because LoR has absolutely awful mechanics.

I see all sorts of overpowered stuff in this game, and they sure ain't Trinity. Trinity is a support frame that sometimes makes your life a bit easier, oh no!

What is it you even have an actual problem with? All the annoying and abusive stuff I see in game has absolutely nothing to do with Trinity whatsoever. All I see is hypothetical arguments that don't even ring true.

[motorfirebox]

4 hours ago, Mudfam said:

If EV is so overpowered then why do I never see one outside of LoR? And that's only because LoR has absolutely awful mechanics.

Because the game isn't challenging enough to require it. And it's hard to make the game more challenging, because if you do, any team without a Trinity won't be able to survive.

 

That's what makes her broken.

[Nirrel]

49 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

Because the game isn't challenging enough to require it. And it's hard to make the game more challenging, because if you do, any team without a Trinity won't be able to survive.

 

That's what makes her broken.

Not really, that's just makes the game broken.

[Mudfam]

1 hour ago, motorfirebox said:

Because the game isn't challenging enough to require it. And it's hard to make the game more challenging, because if you do, any team without a Trinity won't be able to survive.

 

That's what makes her broken.

To do what exactly?

"Challenge" in this game just doesn't exist. It's more about devising different strategies to steamroll everything. If you go down it's probably due to lag, glitches or something completely broken and unfair.

I've done 8 hour runs with enemy levels in the thousands, yeah there are certain ways to cheese certain things that involve spamming an ability, but in general there's no need for it, it's not even useful. There are endless strategies and frames that can dominate anything at any level without a trinity being involved.

Again, hypotheticals. "If this then that". In the game as it is Trinity does nothing for the power of frames and weapons. They do what they do and they don't scale with energy. Only Trinity herself needs that energy to play her role, and all the extra energy she provides is nice but not needed or powerful.

[motorfirebox]

1 hour ago, Mudfam said:

To do what exactly?

"Challenge" in this game just doesn't exist. It's more about devising different strategies to steamroll everything. If you go down it's probably due to lag, glitches or something completely broken and unfair.

I've done 8 hour runs with enemy levels in the thousands, yeah there are certain ways to cheese certain things that involve spamming an ability, but in general there's no need for it, it's not even useful. There are endless strategies and frames that can dominate anything at any level without a trinity being involved.

Again, hypotheticals. "If this then that". In the game as it is Trinity does nothing for the power of frames and weapons. They do what they do and they don't scale with energy. Only Trinity herself needs that energy to play her role, and all the extra energy she provides is nice but not needed or powerful.

Right, sure. That's why they do LoR without Trin. That's why players AOE farm for rep/affinity without Trin. Because Trin is the only one who needs that much energy. I mean, come on. Trinity herself barely needs any energy at all.

Trinity is a huge part of why the game is like it is—why there's very little in the way of real challenge. The existence of a few oddball strategies like perma-invis Naramon doesn't really change that. Those individually broken strategies can be addressed individually. Trinity allows for the existence of basically infinite broken strategies. As long as AOE exists, and EV exists, the game will always be fundamentally broken.

@Nirrel Potato po-tah-to, really. The presence of Trin in the game has had a huge impact on its development.

Edited July 15, 2017 by motorfirebox

[Mudfam]

20 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

Right, sure. That's why they do LoR without Trin. That's why players AOE farm for rep/affinity without Trin. Because Trin is the only one who needs that much energy. I mean, come on. Trinity herself barely needs any energy at all.

Trinity is a huge part of why the game is like it is—why there's very little in the way of real challenge. The existence of a few oddball strategies like perma-invis Naramon doesn't really change that. Those individually broken strategies can be addressed individually. Trinity allows for the existence of basically infinite broken strategies. As long as AOE exists, and EV exists, the game will always be fundamentally broken.

@Nirrel Potato po-tah-to, really. The presence of Trin in the game has had a huge impact on its development.

Trinity is used in LoR because for some reason it was deemed a good idea to make things drain energy fast. This has nothing to do with the game in general. Trinity just makes this easier, if it's not trinity it's pizzas or whatever else will make the raid go faster and without hiccups.

There aren't a few oddball strategies, there's as many as you can think of, and I'm certainly not talking about naramon. Lots of warframe abilities are extremely powerful and their power doesn't diminish with enemy scaling. They just don't need that much energy, they are perfectly sustainable without a Trinity.

Trinity is not enabling anything, only adding some convenience. Why are you looking to blame trinity for things that have nothing to do with her? Again, what is actually your problem? I've not once heard a convincing argument, mostly stuff about powers that aren't trinity's.

If we're talking about the game's energy economy in general and saying that we shouldn't have access to our abilties because they're overpowered then you're just refuting the premise of the game entirely. I don't disagree that many things are overpowered, but removing them entirely is very blatantly not the solution.

[Nirrel]

30 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

@Nirrel Potato po-tah-to, really. The presence of Trin in the game has had a huge impact on its development.

How did you even get to that conclusion? If there was any problem during development because the overabundance of energy that Trinity can give you than why to introduce zenurik or energize ecc. or other frames that can give you even more on top of that....What you are saying just make no sense. The only thing that happaned with this development is just make trinity obsolete and useful to null in any mission on the startchart because of overpowered abilities that you can cast every now and than and clear the map. Of course on higher levels she would be still useful, but she start to fall of again as a healer 100+ when everthing can just one/twoshot you and she have no time to cast her 4th in time. But surprise we have nothing in between 45 to 80, just sortie 2. As it is the main problem is the game as a whole and nerfing Trinity would not solve anything whatsoever.

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

I say let's start by nerfing the truly OP Warframes first and then collect the tears to make Trinity truly overpowered.

And yes, I'm looking at all those other Warframes with excellent CC, invulnerability and essentially infinite health.

[(PSN)bullet1351]

What do you think the problem here really is?

trinity allowing a party to use their abilities more then intended?

abilities being to strong?

being able to farm efficiently with those abilities?

other support frames being too weak by comparison?

Or there isn't a problem because you only see this stuff in a pre-made squad who are committed to doing something efficiently rather then have fun and would just use energy pads if trin wasn't there?

Trinity is a support warframe her job is to help the team while they do the damage, providing energy makes up for her lack of damage.

Trinity is good at providing energy at the expense of her other 3 abilities. Blessing trinity is good but unnecessary and so is EV.

In every LOR I have ever played where 2 players pick Trinity someone said "2 trins?" they would rather a frame like stomp rhino that does a role that is already covered by vauban then bring a second support frame whether its a second EV or a blessing trin.

People bring up how Harrow requires kills to get energy. but he provides farless is much and he has to get the kill, a squad can screw him over. Is that really what u want? He is not effective at supporting a team with energy.

Also what is really overpowered that term is overused. Too me its something that is obviously better making the game less fun to play or unintended by the devs. Trinity is neither! Using abilities is fun, and DE is well aware of the EV build and has no plans to change it.

So what is the problem?

[ariivanasan]

like i already said in others topics

Quote

only 2 things need to back change: blessing must have 100% DR, and infinity range

 

Edited July 16, 2017 by ariivanasan

[OnTarasMind]

Changing Trinity would be a finicky process, but first, let me state my opinion of her currently. Do I think she's balanced? Compared to other frames, yes, she is, just based off of what her abilities do. Her Bless isn't as good as it used to be, and EV makes up for that, and this makes her balanced out. Is she balanced based off of what she has to do for her abilities? No, not really. She doesn't exactly have to work for her abilities, compared to some other frames like Harrow, since she has to press one button to get Energy and another to heal her team and herself and give damage reduction.

Now, how could we change the abilities to be more interactive while keeping her balanced? Well, that's where things get tricky. I've seen some people suggest that EV should act like Well of Life, in a sense, and I think that's a pretty decent idea. For her blessing, things could get even more complicated. I kind of like where it is now, but I know it's range should be buffed, or at least be scale-able, but as for how she could work for it, I'm not really sure myself. Self-damage wasn't that great, I think something that could work would be kind of like Well of Life as well, where the amount of damage dealt to an enemy is exchanged into healing and a damage resistance bonus.

But that's just my two cents. my suggestion is bound to get lost within this thread, so I'm not really expecting much to happen with my opinion.

[Chipputer]

5 hours ago, Zia_Avenicia said:

Is she balanced based off of what she has to do for her abilities? No, not really. She doesn't exactly have to work for her ab

This is most people's problem with her. Infinite energy is one thing. Infinite energy with no work involved is an entirely different situation and that's what Trinity currently is. Crying out loud, the guy who asked about Trinity at Tennocon directly brought up the amount of work involved for the amount of reward that she gets for it (for herself and her entire team).

There's a fringe argument of, "you have to keep an enemy alive for her to hit and she slowly kills them with repeated casts," but in a game that throws as many enemies at us as this one does it's a silly one.

[Mudfam]

4 hours ago, Chipputer said:

This is most people's problem with her. Infinite energy is one thing. Infinite energy with no work involved is an entirely different situation and that's what Trinity currently is. Crying out loud, the guy who asked about Trinity at Tennocon directly brought up the amount of work involved for the amount of reward that she gets for it (for herself and her entire team).

There's a fringe argument of, "you have to keep an enemy alive for her to hit and she slowly kills them with repeated casts," but in a game that throws as many enemies at us as this one does it's a silly one.

This may be true for a pure EV build, but if you play any other Trinity she's a whole lot more hard work than Harrow. Harrow can cast his 2 and 3 once, then spend the next couple of minutes playing normally. Trinity needs to recast her (expensive) 3 and 4 every 20 seconds or so, and just to keep that up she needs to cast EV on several targets inbetween. This leaves her very little time to do anything else. She spends all her time just trying to keep her buffs up. If you build and play such a Trinity you'll see how true this is.

That's the only Trinity I play. She heals, she gives some energy and she's tough. But to do that she needs to be constantly using all her abilities.

LoR is a special case where EV is used, but I just don't see any other use for her. Generally I don't do much besides kuva, sorties and raids, but even when I do something like farm relics with a quake banshee I don't need an EV to do it, my banshee is efficient enough to do 20 or more waves of defence with just one pizza at the start of the mission. At most trinity can compensate for bad builds with too little forma.

[W3zeer]

31 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

This may be true for a pure EV build, but if you play any other Trinity she's a whole lot more hard work than Harrow. Harrow can cast his 2 and 3 once, then spend the next couple of minutes playing normally. Trinity needs to recast her (expensive) 3 and 4 every 20 seconds or so, and just to keep that up she needs to cast EV on several targets inbetween. This leaves her very little time to do anything else. She spends all her time just trying to keep her buffs up. If you build and play such a Trinity you'll see how true this is.

That's the only Trinity I play. She heals, she gives some energy and she's tough. But to do that she needs to be constantly using all her abilities.

LoR is a special case where EV is used, but I just don't see any other use for her. Generally I don't do much besides kuva, sorties and raids, but even when I do something like farm relics with a quake banshee I don't need an EV to do it, my banshee is efficient enough to do 20 or more waves of defence with just one pizza at the start of the mission. At most trinity can compensate for bad builds with too little forma.

Amen to that. Going into high level content with Trinity means you'll be pressing lots of buttons. A high duration Trinity definetly is one of the most tanky frames in the game, but in order to keep your buffs up you'll have to put a lot more effort into your play than with most other frames (and nothing is more sad than a bless-Trin going down over and over). Someone here wrote Trinity wouldn't need much energy for herself, which is complete nonsense. Blessing is a very expensive ability which you'll have to use extremly often in order to help your team, and it's like Mudfam said, you'll spend most of your time trying to regain your energy, because once you're below the critical EV threshold, you're dead. Playing Harrow is a lot more relaxed for me, as he plays pretty much like any other frame, CC stuff, kill stuff, use invulnerability to get out of bad stuff, and use your 3 inbetween. I also have to say, as someone who spend most of his time on Trinity, that in many cases, your team wont even need a Trinity for energy. Zenurik pretty much removes the need for that when build for high efficiency. Sure with an EV Trinity you can squeeze out some more cheese, but Zenurik already achieves that on its own, 4 energy per second is more than enough for most builds, especially combined with energy restoring weapons and orbs. I'd be fine with getting rid of the low-duration EV-Trin, as it indeed feels out of place and completly ruins the rest of her Kit. But in a game where you feel useless as a suppot 99% of the time, we definetly have other issues. Why support when you can just walk past everything and leave corpses behind?