Please don't nerf Trin. And let me tell you why.

[Mousarchy]

20 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

snip

 

I like you random person on the internet. for holding an argument without just straight up attacking my character. I do prefer my link blessing trinity over EV. and more than anything i just find the inf energy at no cost of work is still skewed. I like having to take in your own abilities. when to use a skill, how many and how often you should use it. (youd be suprised how many people try to push a build as good that REQUIRES a trinity to use.) the energy issue is the fact it lets people play without taking anything into account. you can throw bastielle willy nilly, you can play saryn like pre-rework. It still takes out people having to pay attention to energy usuage (just cuz your care has the best milage dosnt mean you dont have to refill it) So if there was some form of work applied to that energy gain. I have no issues with it. Just giving that much power with no work involved is her issue (hell I actually want buffed overall if you disregard her EV)

Still all in all it comes down to...trinity should be more than a mana battery and into a proper cleric with well time heals like she used to be. Just enough to get the Elitist types off the whole mandatory to be EV if you ever try to LFG skit

Edited July 18, 2017 by Ordosan

[kleerr2]

Oh my... Trinity's gettin some hate these days is she?! For being a support frame no less... These are dangerous times son! When you stop, think for a few and realise...

That there are people... who play a very boring and repetitive frame, to supposedly make other people's gameplay experience better/ more convenient, basically taking one for the team, and then it turns out that.. your team is actually upset and dissatisfied! Because they are supposedly getting too much convenience! Its just too good at what it does man! And it hurts their balance! Because there is just soo much balance to be seen these days, even in just the 'warframe abilities' department as is, right??

Well... That is a very frightening realisation. Atleast from my point of view... Talk about turning around to bite the hand that feeds you eh...

I mean really... lets hate on Trinity, en masse, because her abilities are supposedly too good man, or rather, your favorite word... OP! That is a solid endeavour, especially considering that roughly 90% of the other frames also have abilities(yes mostly multiple) that are also too/ very good and most actually are OP! When exactly are the nerfs for those scheduled again?!

But wait it actually turns out that Trinity is infact very evil, because you see... she makes all of them other OP abilities even more OP! Somehow...

I hope you got the sarcasm, but this kind of generic argumentation idiocracy is infact dangerously silly(avoiding another word, coz someone's feelings) especially en masse!

How about we consider the obvious, which apparently is not so obvious, which is that Trinity is not a norm... She really is not... You don't need her pretty much ever.. Think about this... does trinity being in your party, using whatever skill, change your gameplay style? And no, i'm not talking about the flow of gameplay, but about the way YOU play the game... If trinity was spamming her EV all day long, would that change your game style much, as in will you spamm abilities, or something, will you not, what ends up happening? You getting dissatisfied? Is Trinity going to make your abilities more effective, or something(Sonar i guess, but there is a point where you cannot kill the enemy, more)? I will give you an example...

Do you need to spamm Molecular Prime every second in order for it to be usefull?!

Maybe you would rather just use it when you actually feel the need to...

The point is that, Trin spamming EV, or no Trin in your party, is not very relevent to your gameplay, because you are not going to be spamming abilities simply because Trinity is spamming her EV... And if you do, it is pretty much pointless...

Speaking from my own experiance, i couldn't care less if Trinity is in my party, or if she is mashing her #2 button... I just use my abilities at the interval that they are mostly effective at... Because overusing them is going to be pointless, as there is a threshold of ability effectivness and going past it is pointless... It is pointless to have 20 Vortexes when just 2, or 3 at key locations will do... It is pointless to spamm Chaos when a cast per 30sec will do, it is pointless to... and the list goes on, alot!

Lots(notice of not all) of abilities are not worth spamming and there are some that even deactivate the previous cast...

You know, actually i think Trinity should get a ground up rework! Not because of all the crying and salt... but because you don't deserve it! You don't deserve the convenience, recieved trough someone else's boring gameplay experience. And no, i don't have a problem with making EV less of a hassle, like maybe making it a toggle ability... but the phrase ''People that play her and want to give other people energy need to work for it'' pisses me off man... It is so fkin condescending!

Thats why Trinity should be reworked to not be a support... because apparently, people stopped thinking whether, or not they should use their abilities, and started thinking about whether or not someone is ''WORKING'', to give THEM fckin convenience! ''Work for my energy, slave'' anyone? No? Ok.

And they want to make it so it is harder to give them conveniance! Maybe make her do jumpropes or something(work goal not identified...)?! That is so self-destructive it hurts! Do you realise this is not WOF that steals all your kills, EV is supposed to make your life better, not saying it is a necessity, it is just supposed to... It is supposed to help you and maybe does and you are upset about it?! wut?!

THAT fckin moment when someone thinks you are actually not doing enough, to be giving THEM, more convenience! That fckin moment dude... and why? Because ''MAH BALANCE!''. Or rather the lack thereof... As per usuall...

- - - -

On 18.07.2017 г. at 6:35 AM, Borg1611 said:

Many frames simply don't have the desire to spam any abilities because that just serves no purpose for them. Choosing not to use energy as fast as you can when you have zenurik or inspiration etc doesn't mean you have "infinite energy." You're just not spending your energy... you're using it only as much as you need to.

You can easily perma CC a massive area without EV. In what situation would you ever need to spam CC as fast as you possibly could with endless energy? Why would you need 30 bastilles? It's pointless overkill that serves no real purpose whatsoever. You can easily CC more than you need to without EV, so being able to spam that CC endlessly with EV is irrelevant because you've already reached the point where you don't need more without it. 

No, that content is made trivial by plenty of other mechanics that can make things trivial without infinite energy.

Perma invulnerability can trivialize content and does not require infinite energy.

Perma invisibility can trivialize content and does not require infinite energy.

Infinite scaling damage, which is coming in more forms on more frames as they are reviewed, does not require infinite energy. Even something like Oberon's smite can be spammed quite a lot with high efficiency and zenurik (which is far from infinite, it's just enough to cast a lot). 

Mass AoE CC can be done without infinite energy. 

Opening up mobs to finishers and stabbing them with  a covert lethality dagger (or using fatal teleport) does not require infinite energy. 

Nidus can trivialize plenty of content by having 90% DR, an invulnerability proc and self-sustain his own energy without Trinity or other energy sources

Even some of the things people have pointed out in this thread that are supposedly super overpowered because of EV can do more than enough without EV. Banshee can get plenty of sonars up without EV. You can't stand there and spam it endlessly with high power strength without Trinity/consumables, but how many sonar spots do you really need and how much of a multiplier? Equinox can do massive damage with maim without high power strength due to the way it functions. EV Trinity lets you build it up faster, but not so much so that it's really necessary at any level. A mob can only be completely dead. If EV is just letting you spam something that's overkill, why are we supposed to be outraged about how powerful EV is? 

People seem to forget that Trinity takes up one of your parties slots. She's contributing to your groups power by giving the other people in the group the chance to become more powerful rather than bringing that power in a direct way. So if she's just standing around feeding people energy (yes I realize EV feeds some damage to maim as well if you're doing that sort of group), that's a spot on your team that could have been another damage buff or damage dealer. Your group likely could have done the same content with the same basic comp, different builds and a different 4th. 

Again, 99.99% of the content in the game can be trivialized in multiple ways by multiple frames without Trinity or EV (or energy consumables, or harrow). This becomes more the case as they review frames and add new ones. Everyone trying to pretend otherwise is kidding themselves. When you realize this to be true, the "OMG INFINITE ENERGY IS OVEPOWERED" rhetoric just sounds ridiculous. Overpowered at what? That thing we can all do easily without infinite energy anyway? So why am I supposed to be convinced that infinite energy is overpowered when I can easily do everything without it? I used to use Trinity all the time, then I got bored of her and realized I never really needed her to begin with, especially not after the clunky Zenurik bandaid to the outdated energy system. Zenurik isn't remotely close to "infinite" yet provides many builds with plenty of energy. You can't endlessly spam things, but most things you wouldn't want to spam anyway. In many groups she's just a free consumable that lets the group get into their grove faster at the start of a game.

This comment is far too underrated! I'd love to bold+italic everything you said that i consider to be true, but then i will have to bold+italic your whole post and that will be overkill.

[Rozellia]

On 7/13/2017 at 7:35 PM, (PS4)XxDarkyanxX said:

ohshtngrwotareudoing -snip

> Pizza is hotkeyed (for me ) on Numberpad one, press 3 times free 300 energy totaling out at 1200 energy, that easy. not to mention the range is decent on it , its not like you cant move period. as if it only has a 1~3 meter range.
> when focuses were released leveling them was rediculously easy ( i legit nearly capped out zenu within the first two weeks) Draco was a thing than so. 

Energy system needs a look at period as i said, not just trin. Next:
 

On 7/13/2017 at 8:27 PM, DrBorris said:

-snippy

nearly 2/3'rds of the thread is requesting trinity being reworked/ nerfed so she can be more " in the fight" Ex Mesa's peacemaker was an aimbot from hell, then reworked to be made making the player aim in the general direction.
thing is Energy vamp is fine. if it wasnt, why wasnt it changed with the unexpected bless nerfs? (Which was slightly out of the blue, because you know healing/damage reduc is an inconvenience in a causual pve game- per usual WarframeCommunitySimulator)
also iirc Link builds (i.e God Trin builds) are used frequently endgame ( more than EVfrom what ive played with ) where she is legit smack dab in the mobs eating damage like no ones business.
what i also find cute is that you're attempting to talk down to me as if you're superior, not implying, by the way.
your context screams it. try again next time, suggestion: odds of success will be more potent with toddlers not with adults who are capable to provide facts/opinions  and/or previous situations/environments regarding nerfs to frames.  not to mention the first like 6 pages of this thread said in a sense: she needs to be offensive and in the fight(paraphrasing) and incase you've been under a rock: that there was legit the foundation of nearly ALL WARFRAME REWORKS
and to be fair, you non-trin mains are missing what we trin mains have been requesting for a long time, a complete overhaul of her skills, not just nerfs,nerfs and more nerfs. (as i said Well of Life what the heck even is that skill) Not just redundant EV nerfs/reworks, because sooner or later you all will complain about how link is OP with the dmg reduc and defense reduction on linked enemy's :^) and want its to be reworked and nerf too, 
Next:

 

On 7/14/2017 at 7:55 AM, SenorClipClop said:

-snip

as i said previously energy system needs to be reworked, you can pizza spam ( and the resources are NOT impossible to get/farm) and get the same results. Zenu combos with ES aura can get you a decent amount of energy over time if you're running endgame (including energy drops ) you're bound to get max energy very quickly  from what i see in endgame most trins dont even run EV builds they use the bless/link builds.
then i also said everyone here is making Heals/Energy regain like its a huge inconvenience, why complain about some one elses frame baffles me.
hell why complain about getting free energy, so you can  slam your face into your keyboard to "dps"  as your frame, we trins dont judge we only enable :^)

Oh i think i forgot to mention: 
Warframe is a CASUAL PVE
and PVP ( that no one plays) game
 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Rozellia

[SenorClipClop]

2 hours ago, Rozellia said:

as i said previously energy system needs to be reworked, you can pizza spam ( and the resources are NOT impossible to get/farm) and get the same results. Zenu combos with ES aura can get you a decent amount of energy over time if you're running endgame (including energy drops ) you're bound to get max energy very quickly  from what i see in endgame most trins dont even run EV builds they use the bless/link builds.

And as I said before: Zenurik and Energy Siphon give off energy gradually, the former unavailable for the first few minutes of a mission. Pizzas are pretty cheesy (pun intended), but they cost permanent resources that you won't get back. Even Harrow, who converts his energy into squad energy, needs to add a little skill and effort to make it work. Trinity gets to do this instantly, for free and by pressing one button. And yes, absolutely EV builds are pretty much a thing of the past. Killing the target pays out all the Energy, so gimping her other abilities with negative duration isn't really used much anymore. But it's not just the build, it's the ability itself.

Also, looking at Trinity is part of looking at a restructuring of the entire Energy system.

2 hours ago, Rozellia said:

Energy vamp is fine. if it wasnt, why wasnt it changed with the unexpected bless nerfs?

First of all, if you didn't expect the nerfs to Blessing I'm really not sure you understood just how strong it used to be.

Second, I believe all the talk of Trinity and Energy Vampire lately has been brought up because of the introduction of Harrow. Thurible, the second ever squad-wide Energy regen ability, can keep a squad topped off on the blue stuff quite happily, and is frankly more interesting than Trinity's just-press-2 EV. Previously, EV was the only Warframe ability that let us regen energy, so most of us were pretty contentedly passive about it. However, the advent of Harrow has stirred up some ideas in the community about how Trin goes about what she does. It's not that we suddenly have a problem with Energy Vampire (though some do), it's that we've just been shown that energy-restoring abilities can be more engaging than a single button press. If you look back in this thread, few (if any) Tenno are asking for EV to become less powerful -- rather, we're hoping EV can become more interesting. Personally, I don't believe that Trin should be made more offensive or in-the-fight at all, but I would like to have a little more consideration built into her skills than "if pressing the button will do something, press the button". This is what we're getting at when we say "involved". Give us certain times and situations to use EV that are better than other times and situations to use it. Give Trinity players the opportunity to display some kind of skill or awareness to let us and others know that we're playing well.

2 hours ago, Rozellia said:

then i also said everyone here is making Heals/Energy regain like its a huge inconvenience, why complain about some one elses frame baffles me.

Two reasons:

• Trinity feels so basic and simple (no offense to her) as to cause many player to love Trinity but dislike playing as her. For some, playing Trinity feels like a personal sacrifice of their enjoyment, and that shouldn't be the case. No matter how strong or weak, a character should be enjoyable. This is not to say I don't enjoy playing Trinity -- I do --  but it's because I'm doing other things while casting her skills, and it's those other things I'm enjoying. It's the same reason I didn't like old Ash: spam is powerful as Hek, but no effort or skill leaves me bored very quickly. It's not me that's doing the strong stuff, it's all the Warframe. For many players, Trinity is played only because she's both effortless and powerful, and the experience is not an enjoyable one for the player. This could be made a whole lot better by having her kit reward player skill or knowledge, which Trin at present isn't built to do.
• The ridiculous input-to-output ratio of Trin's supportive abilities (press 2 buttons to do everything your team could want from you) create an unfair imbalance between her and other supports (who need to apply more skill and effort into what your team needs). I challenge any player to find a thread on the Forums about any other support which does not contain a comment along the lines of "Lol, just use Trinity, [insert Warframe name] is trash compared to her". Other supportive Warframes can round out a team as nice as you please, but they all get flak and get called "useless" because Trinity does her job instantly using just 2 button presses with no downsides, skill-checks or requirements. Players get yelled at for taking a non-Trin support all the time because it's not "optimal", but many players dislike playing Trin because there's nothing in her kit to display or reward a player's skill. Either Trin's input-to-ouput ratio needs to be balanced to other supports, or she needs to have some kind of skill or effort check to be optimal so that players can feel rewarded for playing Trinity instead of indentured to playing her.

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by SenorClipClop

[SenorClipClop]

On 7/18/2017 at 0:24 PM, --Q--Voltage said:

The game is balanced around spam just ask Nox, Lech Kril, Nullifiers, Scrambus/Comba, Bursas, Manics etc.

These are all in the game counter spam, yes, but not at all to balance the game around spam, since the counters to these enemies lie within a specific tactic or the use of a skill, not more spam. For example Kril, Nully, Nox, Scrambus and Comba are all checks of a player's accuracy. Hit Lech Kril's hose thing, hit the Nully drone thing (or use one of a few other tools), all the rest are  "shoot in head to defeat". Spamming against them is the least effective thing or just straight-up impossible, which is kinda what they're made for. Similarly, Manics test a player's attention, while the most efficient way to destroy a Bursa is to move behind it, turn around and throw damage. These units aren't in the game to justify mindless spam, they encourage us to do the opposite.

Edited July 20, 2017 by SenorClipClop

[Fallen_Echo]

@kleerr2

Dude you dont understand!

I dont want my life to be easy, i dont want my energy reserve filled because i run low efficiency on a caster frame! I want challange, i want a hardcore experience and internally gimping myself is not enough!

No! I want all these support frames and buffers to suffer just as me because thats the real way, the only way they should enjoy MY game! Getting buffs from octavia, status immunity from oberon or energy from trinity is for the weak! I dont equip all these dragon keys just so some weakling come along and trivialize my enjoyment!

Also since we are at it we need to nerf the Tonkor since there are still people who use this noob tube and dealing aoe damage to kill enemies faster are for the filthy casuals!

 

Now this is how i imagine most of these guys who cant take some extra comfort without crying for nerfs.

[Xaero]

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Now this is how i imagine most of these guys who cant take some extra comfort without crying for nerfs.

You are exaggerating things. Most feedback I see is based on idea that you shouldn't get maximum for doing minimum.

There are always players who want no challenge, who want to be rewarded for almost zero effort. And there are always players who want the opposite. If devs intent to keep both groups interested in game, they should keep the "easy mode", but it never should be more (or even as) rewardable as tryhard gameplay.

Unfortunately, Warframe's balance is currently shifted more to the favor of the first group of players. But, considering recent tweaks, reworks, new warframes' mechanics, DE aims to reach the game's state I described earlier.

[Fallen_Echo]

5 hours ago, Ksaero said:

You are exaggerating things. Most feedback I see is based on idea that you shouldn't get maximum for doing minimum.

You think thats overexaggerated? Did you ever seen a vacuum to everybody discussion where people trying to tell you that just because you dont want to move out 3 meters into the enemy fireline to get ammo/health/energy you are lazy?

There are always players who want no challenge, who want to be rewarded for almost zero effort. And there are always players who want the opposite. If devs intent to keep both groups interested in game, they should keep the "easy mode", but it never should be more (or even as) rewardable as tryhard gameplay.

Unfortunately, Warframe's balance is currently shifted more to the favor of the first group of players. But, considering recent tweaks, reworks, new warframes' mechanics, DE aims to reach the game's state I described earlier.

Ever since i started playing this game, unless i done council challanges, insane sorties with bad weapons or actual endurance rounds i have never really found challanging gameplay here.

Trinity at her best gives you health and energy. She is esentially the same as bringing energy pizzas/zenurik and some hp restore with us. She cant CC, deal big damage or have tricks what can easily turn her into a solo death machine. She in general is soo useless, that if we ever remove the energy giving abilities from her, that would be enough to make her the least used frame.

Hell she is pretty rare used in general play already, in this year i might have seen 4 trinities in my pub runs, because you simply dont need her here. Its better to get any other cc/damage/buff frame than trinity.

[Golmihr]

I think they should buff her fun factor...

[(PSN)theelix]

On 7/8/2017 at 7:39 PM, _A_Illuminati_A_ said:

Let me direct your attention to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/6m4772/leave_trinity_alone/

As far as I'm concerned , Vaminos (Venn2) is more important than any of you guys. He knows what he's talking about, maybe you should listen to him.

 

"edit: this was meant to be a circle jerk thread and you people ruined it"

Why would I listen to two people who've made threads on different websites with not a single actual argument between them? It's wonderful that you think so highly of his opinion you're willing to plug your ears like a child. 

The only person on that entire thread that had a solid point was this person who you seem to have not mentioned at all. 

[–]SaneNSanity 7 points 11 days ago 

I'll say the same thing I always say when people complain about Trinity being OP.

Fix energy generation! Boom! Then people probably won't care about EV changes nearly as much. The nerfs to her 4 were barely felt because suddenly everywhere you turn there's a way to heal.

[Xaero]

18 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Ever since i started playing this game, unless i done council challanges, insane sorties with bad weapons or actual endurance rounds i have never really found challanging gameplay here.

Trinity at her best gives you health and energy. She is esentially the same as bringing energy pizzas/zenurik and some hp restore with us. She cant CC, deal big damage or have tricks what can easily turn her into a solo death machine. She in general is soo useless, that if we ever remove the energy giving abilities from her, that would be enough to make her the least used frame.

Hell she is pretty rare used in general play already, in this year i might have seen 4 trinities in my pub runs, because you simply dont need her here. Its better to get any other cc/damage/buff frame than trinity.

Are we playing the same game? Top 3 frames I see in public runs are Banshee, Ember and Trinity. Trinity is very easy to use. One button for infinite energy, one button for instant healing. If these abilities aren't getting more complicated, they shouldn't be so effective.

But nerfing/reworking Trinity at the current game state is pointless. Energy management as a whole is a problem. Enemy scaling is a problem. Trinity's abilities act more like a band-aid to the broken scaling system. If Trinity is going to receive a fair nerf, these systems should be reworked to fair state first.

[(PSN)theelix]

12 minutes ago, Ksaero said:

Are we playing the same game? Top 3 frames I see in public runs are Banshee, Ember and Trinity. Trinity is very easy to use. One button for infinite energy, one button for instant healing. If these abilities aren't getting more complicated, they shouldn't be so effective.

But nerfing/reworking Trinity at the current game state is pointless. Energy management as a whole is a problem. Enemy scaling is a problem. Trinity's abilities act more like a band-aid to the broken scaling system. If Trinity is going to receive a fair nerf, these systems should be reworked to fair state first.

What missions do you play, because I've not seen a Trinity in the last six months outside of a raid, or playing with a friend who just started the game. I can't see any scenario where Trinity is brought into a public match, either. Please tell me there aren't people out there who think they help the team by playing a Trinity in a level 100 sortie assassination. Unless you're fighting Lephantis it ends in a second. One cast Molecular Prime and four Tigris. 

 

Also, I like how you, for some reason, imagine that Trinity's EV would go away and energy management as a whole wouldn't be addressed. They clearly realize that to change one requires change of the other unless they want to hear more yelling by people like OP, fifteen threads every two hours, from then until they fix it. 

 

[Xaero]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)theelix said:

What missions do you play, because I've not seen a Trinity in the last six months outside of a raid, or playing with a friend who just started the game. I can't see any scenario where Trinity is brought into a public match, either. Please tell me there aren't people out there who think they help the team by playing a Trinity in a level 100 sortie assassination. Unless you're fighting Lephantis it ends in a second. One cast Molecular Prime and four Tigris.

Sortie defences, interceptions, survivals. Almost every time.

5 minutes ago, (PS4)theelix said:

Also, I like how you, for some reason, imagine that Trinity's EV would go away and energy management as a whole wouldn't be addressed. They clearly realize that to change one requires change of the other unless they want to hear more yelling by people like OP, fifteen threads every two hours, from then until they fix it.

I can imagine anything. Though I can't say for sure if DE changes Trin before, with or after energy management is changed. Or if they will be changed at all.

[Nirrel]

1 hour ago, Ksaero said:

Sortie defences, interceptions, survivals. Almost every time.

I can imagine anything. Though I can't say for sure if DE changes Trin before, with or after energy management is changed. Or if they will be changed at all.

Well all Trinities are for you then, because unless I go Trinity I do not see many around, and even I stopped because I realize that many other frames are way more useful. Perhaps ppl takes Trinity to sortie interceptions ecc. but you have to realize that if you do succed it's not because of Trinity but the other 3 frames being badass and it was the poorest choice to make.

All this discussion vert on the fact that on paper how Trinity is so powerful because of EV, but very few takes it into account that in fact in game how meaningless that it becomes while you actually play the game. Her help become so circumtantial, that if you took another frame those situations could have been avoided to begin with (and I mained Trin for years). I did endurance runs and we did not take an EV. We did perfectly fine. The only scenery where EV still rules is LoR, and even there just because you want to finish it as quickly as possible.

As for the devs....At tennocon they where pretty clear that while they recognize that Trin is from the ancient history of WF and could do with a rework (not nerf), but it's not in any way a priority.

Trinity's EV is just a non issue. Appart from dedicated XP runs and LoR she is pretty much useless. That's the reality of the game now.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Nirrel

[Rozellia]

23 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

And as I said before: Zenurik and Energy Siphon give off energy gradually, the former unavailable for the first few minutes of a mission. Pizzas are pretty cheesy (pun intended), but they cost permanent resources that you won't get back. Even Harrow, who converts his energy into squad energy, needs to add a little skill and effort to make it work. Trinity gets to do this instantly, for free and by pressing one button. And yes, absolutely EV builds are pretty much a thing of the past. Killing the target pays out all the Energy, so gimping her other abilities with negative duration isn't really used much anymore. But it's not just the build, it's the ability itself.

Also, looking at Trinity is part of looking at a restructuring of the entire Energy system.

whats baffling to me is that you think Poly bundles and other resources to make pizzas are hard to come by. Truly fascinating.
im also confused as to how a warframe ( Trinity in this case) is a foundation/significant part of the energy system,that i may note was a thing before Trinity was even in development- 
O K

23 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

First of all, if you didn't expect the nerfs to Blessing I'm really not sure you understood just how strong it used to be.

Second, I believe all the talk of Trinity and Energy Vampire lately has been brought up because of the introduction of Harrow. Thurible, the second ever squad-wide Energy regen ability, can keep a squad topped off on the blue stuff quite happily, and is frankly more interesting than Trinity's just-press-2 EV. Previously, EV was the only Warframe ability that let us regen energy, so most of us were pretty contentedly passive about it. However, the advent of Harrow has stirred up some ideas in the community about how Trin goes about what she does. It's not that we suddenly have a problem with Energy Vampire (though some do), it's that we've just been shown that energy-restoring abilities can be more engaging than a single button press. If you look back in this thread, few (if any) Tenno are asking for EV to become less powerful -- rather, we're hoping EV can become more interesting. Personally, I don't believe that Trin should be made more offensive or in-the-fight at all, but I would like to have a little more consideration built into her skills than "if pressing the button will do something, press the button". This is what we're getting at when we say "involved". Give us certain times and situations to use EV that are better than other times and situations to use it. Give Trinity players the opportunity to display some kind of skill or awareness to let us and others know that we're playing well.

Im pretty sure it took a lot of people besides me by surprise, due to Trinity Bless build wasnt much of an issue because the build was only viable in LoR Raids ( which doesnt even take 'skill' to complete). So saying Bless build was op, yeah it was but it was highly situational and not required in every node on the map. moral of that situation is why nerf something that isnt used 99% of every ones daily game play . hence why it was out of the blue, and other frames were in dire need of attention besides trin.

> secondly the talk of EV has been brought up because some cuck at tennon con got on stage and was like: hey trinity is strong, and i hate having too much energy and being alive. nerf pls (paraphrasing) . Ultimately staff shot it down saying trin isnt on the radar and that other frames are in need of attention (hydroid).

Here is another thing to mention, most warframe abilities have semi-Mediocre to Horrible  scaling and do little damage to high level enemys, now what you're saying is to make EV more ( included) and nerf the energy regain on abilities you wont be using regardless in high level missions.  O K

and to the: " GivE TrIniTy PlAyeRs ThE OpPoRtUnItY tO DiSPlaY SkIlL " 
Note: in a CASUAL PVE/PVP GAME ( cannot stress this enough)

you dont even have to have good aim in this game, just the correct mod load out and a decent weapon (Riven if applicable) and decimate enemies-
Where her support counterparts consist of 1 button press AoE/Crowd Control (Oberon) Auto Homing HoT(Oberon) AoE DoT/ instant heals ( equinox) One Button presses along with a body shot ( or head-shot since that takes "work" but hey you get more energy, i.e the same ammount from two body shot kills- ) for energy regain (Harrow) trying to think of other frames but i think you get the point. so if you want trin to have more skill, reckoning need to require "more work to use" Mend/main must require "more work to use" 14 other frames entire kit need "more work to use " . 

so yeah that can exit stage left, because from what i see its not only trin that needs to show skill . its all warframes period. they all have some sort of cheese or izi peasy mechanic.

23 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Two reasons:

• Trinity feels so basic and simple (no offense to her) as to cause many player to love Trinity but dislike playing as her. For some, playing Trinity feels like a personal sacrifice of their enjoyment, and that shouldn't be the case. No matter how strong or weak, a character should be enjoyable. This is not to say I don't enjoy playing Trinity -- I do --  but it's because I'm doing other things while casting her skills, and it's those other things I'm enjoying. It's the same reason I didn't like old Ash: spam is powerful as Hek, but no effort or skill leaves me bored very quickly. It's not me that's doing the strong stuff, it's all the Warframe. For many players, Trinity is played only because she's both effortless and powerful, and the experience is not an enjoyable one for the player. This could be made a whole lot better by having her kit reward player skill or knowledge, which Trin at present isn't built to do.
• The ridiculous input-to-output ratio of Trin's supportive abilities (press 2 buttons to do everything your team could want from you) create an unfair imbalance between her and other supports (who need to apply more skill and effort into what your team needs). I challenge any player to find a thread on the Forums about any other support which does not contain a comment along the lines of "Lol, just use Trinity, [insert Warframe name] is trash compared to her". Other supportive Warframes can round out a team as nice as you please, but they all get flak and get called "useless" because Trinity does her job instantly using just 2 button presses with no downsides, skill-checks or requirements. Players get yelled at for taking a non-Trin support all the time because it's not "optimal", but many players dislike playing Trin because there's nothing in her kit to display or reward a player's skill. Either Trin's input-to-ouput ratio needs to be balanced to other supports, or she needs to have some kind of skill or effort check to be optimal so that players can feel rewarded for playing Trinity instead of indentured to playing her.

First bullet: >previous response

Second Bullet: word on region chat/ discord/reddit is that harrow is competing with trin, in the energy department and utility wise  he provides Iframes and has decent energy regain with his 3rd ability, ive played him myself i can agree damage reduction is. im confused how trinity is making all support frames look bad when each has their own playstyle environment, perks to using them over trin and etc, and they have specific play styles as well, trin is portrayed as a healer. and "True Support Frame".

not to mention i enjoy playing trin, even when i dont play trin other people dont mind, the ONLY time when people complain about playing trin is when they are doing brain dead "one-Click" missions to farm Mastery/XP (Previously draco/ akkad). and honestly trin isnt a necessity ot play those maps at all.

So Moral is, you want trin players to be rewarded for playing trin, i thought this was warframe not some other MMO where people actually say " thank you for the heals". im assuming we are talking about two different trins than.
Warframe: you steam roll through missions, may face a challenge with high level missions. Sorites are a joke and raids are an even bigger joke. you have high expectations for a game that isnt part of a highly competitive field on online gaming. you want high game play standards for a game that is obviously casual ( please list a warframe tournament im kinda curious to find one that is by all means legit and sponsored by big names ) 


Pro Tip: Stop Bringing UNPOPULAR FRAMES/RARELY PLAYED into the spotlight by saying she requires more work&totally imbalanced in a game that requires little work to begin with.

[Chipputer]

19 minutes ago, Rozellia said:

Stop Bringing UNPOPULAR FRAMES/RARELY PLAYED into the spotlight by saying she requires more work&totally imbalanced in a game that requires little work to begin with.

But why?

There's a large difference between a game being casual and braindead and a game being casual and engaging. Trinity is not engaging to play in any content you take her to. All you do with her is EV on an enemy and watch two cooldowns. Maybe you press 1 on a priority target and then get yelled at because people can't kill it.

Why is it a bad thing to say, "this other frame is far more engaging than Trinity, can we change her to be more like them?" I absolutely can't stand playing as Harrow and find him inefficient but even I can say that regardless of my feelings he's infinitely more engaging and fun to play than a Trinity.

Beyond all that, you can't excuse questionable design and balance issues by saying the game is casual. That's like saying that you shouldn't ever nerf because the game is primarily PvE.

[Magneu]

On 7/8/2017 at 7:25 PM, _A_Illuminati_A_ said:

This is not debatable, anyone who has played the game for over 1000 hours can tell you that infinite energy is not OP.

What a fantastic argument. I'm suddenly inclined to fully support your side. /s

[UltraRareSloth]

On 18/7/2560 at 11:24 PM, --Q--Voltage said:

But how is it OP? The game is balanced around spam just ask Nox, Lech Kril, Nullifiers, Scrambus/Comba, Bursas, Manics etc. EV is not OP when you can do the exact same with Energy Pads or Zenurik or Arcane Energize. 

Trinity does not need a nerf, forums people just cry nerf when something is useful. There is no imbalance if DE continues to design enemies and levels as they are doing now.

the only thing that make me think OP is EV only need 2s to fill energy to max for a frame with p.flow.

that idea is when i think if i can use EV, link and bless in one build.

but i like her as now so not change is good for me.

Edited July 21, 2017 by UltraRareSloth

[SenorClipClop]

11 hours ago, Rozellia said:

the talk of EV has been brought up because some cuck at tennon con got on stage and was like: hey trinity is strong, and i hate having too much energy and being alive. nerf pls (paraphrasing) .

Please know what you're talking about. That guy at Tennocon's exact words were: "I'm not saying she needs less power. I just think she might need, uh, to work for it a little bit more." (If you want proof of this, the clip is in here.) We're not asking for a nerf to Trinity, we just want it so that Trinity can't give infinite Health and Energy resources without any kind of requirement.

12 hours ago, Rozellia said:

you dont even have to have good aim in this game, just the correct mod load out and a decent weapon (Riven if applicable) and decimate enemies-
Where her support counterparts consist of 1 button press AoE/Crowd Control (Oberon) Auto Homing HoT(Oberon) AoE DoT/ instant heals ( equinox) One Button presses along with a body shot ( or head-shot since that takes "work" but hey you get more energy, i.e the same ammount from two body shot kills- ) for energy regain (Harrow) trying to think of other frames but i think you get the point. so if you want trin to have more skill, reckoning need to require "more work to use" Mend/main must require "more work to use" 14 other frames entire kit need "more work to use " . 

so yeah that can exit stage left, because from what i see its not only trin that needs to show skill . its all warframes period. they all have some sort of cheese or izi peasy mechanic.

I think you misunderstood me. When playing Oberon, there are times when Reckoning is a good idea to use (surrounded by enemies, on Hallowed Ground, CC for reviving a downed squadmate, etc.) and there are times where it is not a good idea to use Reckoning (100 energy to smack a lone enemy, for example). One doesn't just spam Reckoning blindly at every opportunity. With Equinox, Mend needs to preempt the need to heal by at least a few seconds; having Maim up is almost always a good idea, but there are certain times when deactivating is better than other times. Even though these skills are easy to execute, they are best used when the player factors in some of their own personal awareness and judgement. Most abilities, if thrown around willy-nilly, will at the very least waste time and Energy.

On the other hand, it is never a bad idea to cast Energy Vampire at any time, since it pays for itself immediately and is as simple as pressing a button. Not only is mindless EV spam an effective strategy, it's the optimal strategy. If a Trin stands on a Cryopod, sweeps her aim around and mashes the sh*t out of 2 for 10 minutes, that is on-paper the best thing she can possibly do in the mission. I don't know about you, but for me this is not engaging gameplay. I suppose you could argue that a bit of awareness is useful in casting Blessing, since the DR scales on missing allied health, but that awareness just boils down to watching health bars and pressing a button to 100% overcome the obstacle.

12 hours ago, Rozellia said:

and to the: " GivE TrIniTy PlAyeRs ThE OpPoRtUnItY tO DiSPlaY SkIlL " 
Note: in a CASUAL PVE/PVP GAME ( cannot stress this enough)

Chipputer responded to this quite well. To paraphrase, just because a game is casual doesn't mean it can't be engaging. Personally, I want the phrase "good at playing Trinity" to mean something other than "good at pressing two buttons". Show up, press two buttons, press a third to keep yourself alive, here's your medal. None of her abilities interact with each other. None of her abilities interact with her weapons or other loadout elements. It's uninteresting. Like I said, I play Trinity and enjoy it, but my casting feels entirely separate from my own actual involvement in the mission. Trinity requires literally zero skill to use -- which is fine, but there's also a incredibly low skill ceiling on her, so players are unable to be "good" at her or feel involved unless also doing something separate from her abilities. I don't see how it would b bad to let players use their skill and attention to be a good support when using the dedicated support Warframe.

12 hours ago, Rozellia said:

im confused how trinity is making all support frames look bad when each has their own playstyle environment, perks to using them over trin and etc, and they have specific play styles as well, trin is portrayed as a healer.

Me too. I don't understand it. However, that mentality exists and is highly prevalent throughout the Forums. My challenge still stands: find a thread about a non-Trin support that doesn't have someone on it saying, "______________ is trash compared to Trinity". I haven't found one yet.

[lukinu_u]

I EV should get the same change as Saryn's ult now and let us cancel it (even if kill the enemy will be better in most of case).

This would nerf her EV that is stupidely overpowered, but let us efficiently use the whole kit in a single build.
It would be a nerf for EV but an overall buff for Trinity.

[Fallen_Echo]

24 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

I EV should get the same change as Saryn's ult now and let us cancel it (even if kill the enemy will be better in most of case).

This would nerf her EV that is stupidely overpowered, but let us efficiently use the whole kit in a single build.
It would be a nerf for EV but an overall buff for Trinity.

Shes already underused and you want to change the only thing what makes here a considerable choice for endurance runs and raids?

Lets say we change her to make EV less braimdead by making it give energy when trinity shots it. Do you think this will be good enough or we need more?

[lukinu_u]

15 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Shes already underused and you want to change the only thing what makes here a considerable choice for endurance runs and raids?

Lets say we change her to make EV less braimdead by making it give energy when trinity shots it. Do you think this will be good enough or we need more?

Trinity, underused ? Maybe she is underused on matchmaking (and this false, we see a bunch of Trinity) but in team play, she is almost always here because she provide infinite energy and she is much more used on long run because she allow us to totally cheese everything because of that infinite energy.

About the shooting mechanic, I never talked about this and this would be bad (just have to see Harrow). I think the time between each wave just shouldn't be changed, so increasing duration just increase the total duration, so the number of wave (just how they did with Saryn), allowing to build for duration and use all other powers that are good but can't be used if you want an "EV build".

I already play Trinity with other powers but I'm forced to not have too much duration if I want to be able to EV correctly. 
Honestly, I think it's a waste to have 4 power on a warframe if you can only use 1 efficiently.

[NinthAria]

It's not a question of power, either as a healer as an enabler; it's a question of effort and engagement. If you look at well-designed healer/support archetypes in other games--MMOs, shooters, MOBAs, whatever--they always have tactical decision-making to do. In many cases there's interplay between their abilities, or with their allies (or even enemies). There's elements of timing involved. In short, there's limitations--whatever form they may take--that help differentiate good ability usage and bad ability usage, which in turn helps playing the character feel more immediately satisfying or rewarding.

Trinity doesn't have much of that, if any. That's all that the guy at TennoLive was saying; the payoff is disproportionate to the effort put in. The second part is what needs addressing, not the first.

[redeyedtreefrog]

Trinity IS overpowered. And let me tell you why.

All trinity needs to do is press 2 over and over and over again, and her team, provided they're in an (honestly very liberal) range of the enemy she happens to press 2 on this time can get very large quantities of energy very fast. Not only does this give the team energy, but it also results in the enemy's health being culled by a %maximum HP(I don't think that part is OP at all, it's possibly the most balanced part of the ability). Her energy vampire means huge gains for an almost absolute minimum amount of skill and effort input. These gains are so overpowered, that ANY 'pick 4' team compositions will include her. in truth, no team is complete without a trinity in the eyes of the meta, and it's because of the raw amount of power she can transmit to her allies with ease. And this is just her second ability. Plopped on top of that steaming mess of power is instant, full heals, within affinity sharing range of trinity. Plus some damage mitigation(stacks multiplicatively with armor)

Let's bring up the newest hot item from u21: HARROW. Very similar to trinity, right? heals, energy restores, even a small invulnerability window. But there's one fundamental difference between trinity and harrow. Harrow requires more than a single brain cell to operate. His healing requires you to deal damage to the enemy, which is basic, but still takes more effort than pressing a button, and his energy gains require kills, more specifically, headhsot kills if you want maximum efficiency. Sure, his chains make gaining headshots easy enough, but it again is a higher level of interaction than trinity has.

And most importantly... harrow's support requires that living enemies be present in a place where he can shoot them. Multiple are likely required. Trinity needs ONE. This means trinity doesn't rely on team communication nearly as much as harrow does.

 

In the unlikely event that DE revokes their statement about balancing trinity that they made in tennocon, and decides to keep trinity at her current power levels, she needs enemy interaction. Mindlessly pressing 2 the whole mission so that your DPS has the energy to mindlessly spam 4 (or whatever ability they're using) is neither fun, nor intuitive, nor balanced. 

[Nirrel]

4 minutes ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

Let's bring up the newest hot item from u21: HARROW. Very similar to trinity, right? heals, energy restores, even a small invulnerability window. But there's one fundamental difference between trinity and harrow. Harrow requires more than a single brain cell to operate. His healing requires you to deal damage to the enemy, which is basic, but still takes more effort than pressing a button, and his energy gains require kills, more specifically, headhsot kills if you want maximum efficiency. Sure, his chains make gaining headshots easy enough, but it again is a higher level of interaction than trinity has.

And most importantly... harrow's support requires that living enemies be present in a place where he can shoot them. Multiple are likely required. Trinity needs ONE. This means trinity doesn't rely on team communication nearly as much as harrow does.

The only problem with harrow that he as support frame as far as it goes for healing and energy restore pretty much useless. On the startchart you need him as much as Trinty so you don't and on higher level missions he wont be able to keep up with the need of the team wich can be sudden , just because it takes too long to do so. Just consider renewal of oberon. If you keep it up is really good on high levels as well, still ppl will die for the massive hits the enemy can deal. So we have now harrow who to do the same in practice have to kill all the way to be sure that everybody is healed up constantly and full of energy if he really want to support because if he does not and ppl rely on that they will end up dead pretty soon. I know I'm exagerrating a bit here but overall the point stays.What use of a support frame that to be able to support you to play the game using your abilities have to do all the work practicly playing the game in your place. Not that much after all....Harrow as support is just meh...but admittedly he is more fun to play on it's own.