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Why not just remove the Melee Block key?


chainchompguy3
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Stamina is no longer a feature of warframe. Blocking with a melee weapon has become entirely beneficial, with no trade-offs. If a player has their melee weapon equipped, the only time they shouldn't be blocking is if they wish to perform certain combos, or if they wish to Not aimglide.

 

So I ask, why not remove the key to perform it, and make it automatic? Have it exactly the same, but now it'll automatically happen whenever the player takes damage from the front while having their melee equipped and is not swinging said melee weapon.

 

This would free up one of the most used keys, the Right Mouse Button, for other uses.  And seeing as how DE is trying to make Dual wielding and a Dedicated Charge/heavy attack button, DE needs all the keys it can get right about now.

 

The only issue I see with this is that it'd mean Aim-gliding would possibly need to be re-assigned, depending on what DE does with the RMB. But I mean, who needs to aim-glide while using melee, anyways? Most melee combat takes place on the ground...

 

What do you all think?

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There is workaround for this, and due to personal preferences:

If you mouse or control for your mouse hand (right or left) can be assigned to do different function.

Menu> Options> Control: Melee Blocking will just be a Toggle-Block by default, if this feature were to be enabled.

 

Now I think more about it, this sound useful for Conclave, or Melee Combat(mostly).

 

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45 minutes ago, DesFrSpace said:

There is workaround for this, and due to personal preferences:

If you mouse or control for your mouse hand (right or left) can be assigned to do different function.

Menu> Options> Control: Melee Blocking will just be a Toggle-Block by default, if this feature were to be enabled.

 

Now I think more about it, this sound useful for Conclave, or Melee Combat(mostly).

 

I already use the toggle option.

It's not that I find it too difficult to constantly hold down the block key, it's that I find it pretty obsolete to have to dedicate a key to blocking, when at this point there's no significant reason to ever toggle it off.

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3 hours ago, chainchompguy3 said:

I already use the toggle option.

It's not that I find it too difficult to constantly hold down the block key, it's that I find it pretty obsolete to have to dedicate a key to blocking, when at this point there's no significant reason to ever toggle it off.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Reflex_Guard

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Parry

:|

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1 hour ago, chainchompguy3 said:

The only issue I see with this is that it'd mean Aim-gliding would possibly need to be re-assigned, depending on what DE does with the RMB. But I mean, who needs to aim-glide while using melee, anyways? Most melee combat takes place on the ground...

 

*Raises Hand*

PS: This would also mean the removal of the following mods and a rework of the stance system because a lot of them have a combo that involves blocking. In other words, to much work for DE.

Spoiler

latest?cb=20140831202853latest?cb=20161201220512latest?cb=20140831201323

 

Edited by AlphaPHENIX
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1 hour ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

This would also mean the removal of the following mods and a rework of the stance system because a lot of them have a combo that involves blocking. In other words, to much work for DE.

I used to think DE wouldn't do anything that requires too much work until they announced Plains of Eden.

And the mods you mentioned are rarely used by most players.

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1 hour ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

*Raises Hand*

I'm surprised. What does it add to your combat? And would you be significantly disadvantaged to either be without it, or have to use a less immediate key?

Entirely sincere here, I don't use it often enough to know.

1 hour ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

PS: This would also mean the removal of the following mods and a rework of the stance system because a lot of them have a combo that involves blocking. In other words, to much work for DE.

  Reveal hidden contents

latest?cb=20140831202853latest?cb=20161201220512latest?cb=20140831201323

 

Ah, I had forgotten about Guardian Derision. That will indeed need a bit of reworking.

Reflex Guard is a more obsolete version of what I'm proposing, so I don't see any reason to even keep it around. Not to mention how rarely it's used.

Parrying-to-open enemies to finishers would need a small reworking, and the mod [Parry] would indeed need to be touched up along with that, but it shouldn't be very significant.

 

For the Reworking of the stances, as I said, a good portion of my motivation behind this is for it to be involved in the implementation of a dedicated Charge/heavy attack key, and the already in-progress dual wielding. They are already having to touch up some of the stances as it is, as dual wielding has slightly altered combos.

Not to mention that I'd hope stances would implement the charge attacks more heavily into combos, perhaps even replacing the Block-key presses with Charge-attack key presses.

 

Finally, even if it does prove to be too much work for DE, there are still harder-to-implement ideas at least being considered here on the forums. It's worth at least talking about this one.

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6 hours ago, chainchompguy3 said:

I'm surprised. What does it add to your combat? And would you be significantly disadvantaged to either be without it, or have to use a less immediate key?

Entirely sincere here, I don't use it often enough to know.

Mainly getting to the enemies, also seeing where the enemies are more easily sence aim glides with melee don't zoom you in. The way I explain it doesn't make it sound important but it is, I am just bad at explaining things.

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19 hours ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

Mainly getting to the enemies, also seeing where the enemies are more easily sence aim glides with melee don't zoom you in. The way I explain it doesn't make it sound important but it is, I am just bad at explaining things.

Interesting...I suppose that aside from the Specific Band-Aid-like mods of [Air Recon], [Broad Eye], and [Overview], melee aim-gliding is one of the only ways to get a good bird's eye view.

And as for "mainly getting to the enemies", I assume you mean you use it to better your parkour in some way. Again, I don't use it much, so I don't know how vital is may-or-may-not be to this.

 

Anyways, I guess that does prove that the mechanic will be missed if removed, so it can't be removed outright...

there aren't many other readily-accessible keys to use for aim-gliding, though...so what ever DE decides to replace Block with would have to yield in such a way as to let aim-gliding retain it's key...

...maybe it could still be used for charge attacks, seeing as how you can only really perform wall-attacks while mid-air, and can't charge attack...Except for Glaives...

 

This is proving to be a bigger downside than I anticipated...I didn't think much of aim-gliding, and thought it'd have even less use during melee...

 

Thanks for the input. I'll have to go back to brainstorming a bit, on this one. Might update/nekro this thread if I come up with anything, but until then, I guess it'll just sit here.

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1 hour ago, chainchompguy3 said:

...maybe it could still be used for charge attacks, seeing as how you can only really perform wall-attacks while mid-air, and can't charge attack...Except for Glaives...

 

Um let me correct you on something here. Mid-air attacks are called Leap attacks and Wall-attacks are done while Wall Latching.

Sadly Wall attacks are preaty much useless these days because what seems to have been giving them their range was Wall Running and now that we are doing them from a immobile position...you basically just drop down whille slooowly attacking once and most likely missing.

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I am okay with Block being automatic, only if I may have option to revert back.

 

On Some Warframes I don't block unless needed (health low and/or Energy low (Magnetic procs) with Quick-Thinking or Defy) as the damage mitigation screws with Rage energy regeneration. (Mainly as Prolonged Paralysis Valkyr, Chroma, Oberon, and WuKong)

I do use the Block Melee combo of Defiled Snapdragon very often, however it is difficult to tell of the combo itself is providing damage mitigation while blocking.(I have piss poor observational skills in that regard.)

 

Combo-wise while wielding the melee weapon Block combo input could always be changed to a different (currently unused) heck could still be Normal Aim input so the actual keybind (looking at PS4 Controller layout) combo input remains as-is.

 

I agree that Channelling with Auto-block would suffice for both Parry and Reflection.

Personally I am awaiting a heavy-hearted/revisit to melee combo input.

•Letting Reload switch Melee Stance

•Let Context use or separate keybind perform Melee Parry/Stealth attacks

Edited by (PS4)MrNishi
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I'm a bit on the fence, as auto-blocking does sound efficient on buttons and feels rather ninja, but there's definitely something about consciously blocking that fits a little better to general gameplay -at least for the current melee system.
I remember Heavenly Sword had a system where you automatically blocked as long as you weren't attacking, so your gamer reflex for 'stop this guy from hitting me' has to have the response of 'do absolutely nothing' which feels a little counter-intuitive on the brain.  Normally we've got a hair-triggered reflex to mash a dodge or block button to get us out of danger.

I think there is some merit to auto-blocking though, if they ever get around to overhauling the melee system and adding some depth and dynamics, they might be able to weave it in as a mechanic in the right situation, and not just shoe-horn it in with a mod.

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On ‎7‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 7:22 AM, blazinvire said:

I remember Heavenly Sword had a system where you automatically blocked as long as you weren't attacking, so your gamer reflex for 'stop this guy from hitting me' has to have the response of 'do absolutely nothing' which feels a little counter-intuitive on the brain.  Normally we've got a hair-triggered reflex to mash a dodge or block button to get us out of danger.

An interesting thing to note, because yes, it would be kind of counter-intuitive to have to block by doing nothing.

But then again, in warframe's current system, Dodge-rolling is the more hair-trigger reflex thing to mash. It has all the same benefits (Knockdown immunity and damage reduction), yet it can be performed at any time, regardless of weapon. The only thing it doesn't have is that you can't remain stationary while you dodge. And if you're already trying to remain stationary, I'd think not pressing a key in order to block would be at least somewhat less counter-intuitive.

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On 7/13/2017 at 7:40 PM, chainchompguy3 said:

The only issue I see with this is that it'd mean Aim-gliding would possibly need to be re-assigned, depending on what DE does with the RMB. But I mean, who needs to aim-glide while using melee, anyways? Most melee combat takes place on the ground...

I'm not always in combat and I use aimgliding and rolling a lot while I have my melee out to move from position to position.

Mid combat I will incorporate aim gliding in conjunction with rolls occasionally to take out important targets near the back.

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If you're just walking along carrying your melee weapon, and someone catches you unaware, or snipes you when your focusing on a different enemy entirely, I believe they should get the shot. You weren't paying attention, so you got hit. It feels more 'proper'. Whereas auto blocking would remove that opportunity.
Besides blocking sets up the frame with a specific animation and not being able to trigger that whenever you want to would remove something I'm sure some developers worked hard on animating. And let's not forget the time-honored tradition of slightly blocking repeatedly to wave your weapon around in front of you.

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You were worried about the removal of aim-gliding if the guard key was removed, but if you're proposing that RMB instead be defaulted as a charge/heavy attack button, which I'm pretty sure aren't performable in midair anyhow, I don't think the aim glide control would actually need to change at all.

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On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 11:38 AM, Maizaeku said:

If you're just walking along carrying your melee weapon, and someone catches you unaware, or snipes you when your focusing on a different enemy entirely, I believe they should get the shot. You weren't paying attention, so you got hit. It feels more 'proper'. Whereas auto blocking would remove that opportunity.

That's why it blocks frontal damage.

On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 11:38 AM, Maizaeku said:

Besides blocking sets up the frame with a specific animation and not being able to trigger that whenever you want to would remove something I'm sure some developers worked hard on animating. And let's not forget the time-honored tradition of slightly blocking repeatedly to wave your weapon around in front of you.

The actual act of blocking would still use the same animation. Just the animation for raising your weapon up to block would be scrapped.

And lets not forget that DE has thrown away good chunks of content before: the Stamina system comes to mind.

As for waving your weapon, well, I guess that's a price we may have to pay.

 

On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 6:57 PM, OvisCaedo said:

You were worried about the removal of aim-gliding if the guard key was removed, but if you're proposing that RMB instead be defaulted as a charge/heavy attack button, which I'm pretty sure aren't performable in midair anyhow, I don't think the aim glide control would actually need to change at all.

Yes, that's what I was implying when I brought it up.

But you never know. DE could make a huge change and rework how charge attacks work (ah, if only it were true...) As it stands, Glaive-types can be thrown mid-air, and that's technically a charge attack. I didn't want to base my idea too heavily in something that might be pulled out from under us.

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We can also run/jump everywhere all the time with no downside, you going to take a stance against that? With Dualweilding you give up the defensive value of blocking for the flexibility of the gun/melee damage. And really unless your specifically using melee only with a set number of weapons there not a massive DR benefit unless you channel. The removal of stamina was a good thing.

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6 hours ago, AzureTerra said:

We can also run/jump everywhere all the time with no downside, you going to take a stance against that? And really unless your specifically using melee only with a set number of weapons there not a massive DR benefit unless you channel.

There's a huge difference between the jumping of warframe, and the melee blocking.

Jumping requires you to constantly manage how hard you jump, where your destination is, and what enemies are where. Deciding whether to bullet jump, or whether a normal jump will suffice/be required.

Blocking, meanwhile, involves only 1 key press, requires little actual attention (Seeing as how you mostly just continue to aim as normal), and most of the time you would be better off dodge-rolling &/or Bullet-jumping to avoid damage.

Hence why I wish to make it automatic: It is already mostly automatic, why not just make it fully so.

My point that it has no downsides was to elaborate that there really isn't a reason that a player would need to consciously control it, because there's no reason to.

If, for example, melee blocking slowed the player down while blocking shots, then there would be a reason to let players turn it on/off mid combat.

But that isn't the case. Blocking is literally just a toggle-able frontal damage reduction. Why even make it toggle-able?

 

6 hours ago, AzureTerra said:

With Dualweilding you give up the defensive value of blocking for the flexibility of the gun/melee damage. The removal of stamina was a good thing.

I don't know what you're getting at with these 2 sentences, seeing as how I haven't really talked about either of these.

Please elaborate.

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On 7/13/2017 at 8:40 PM, chainchompguy3 said:

why not remove the key to perform it, and make it automatic? Have it exactly the same, but now it'll automatically happen whenever the player takes damage from the front while having their melee equipped and is not swinging said melee weapon.

"Whenever a player aims their crosshairs over an enemy, they'll want to fire their gun anyway. So why don't we just make it so having an enemy in our sights auto-shoots for us and we don't have to pull the trigger? It would free up the left mouse button for other useful things."

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