Self damage is ruining the explosive weapons & Fix suggestions

[_firewings_]

Self damage is just like say: Well I go to equip a weapon that will kill me in one shot to make all my team mates go and revive me 100 times, or die in the beginning of the mission, waste my 4 revives and not be able to help my team mates in the mission.

The point is that SELF DAMAGE is a lazy way to fix any explosive weapon, it kill the players mostly always in one shot and is a risk for the player and the team, making the weapon USELESS for any kind of strategy.

If we talk about ¨Making the game more reliable to be compared with reality¨ we must take in count that all STATUS/ELEMENTAL types would deal self damage to the players and as so almost ALL weapons would do SELF DAMAGE to the player, something that does not happen, also the environment, something that is far away from the goal of the game.

So making SELF DAMAGE does not fix anything, the explosive weapons still dealing high damage, but makes all of the explosives weapons impossible to use in any mission because the SELF DAMAGE inflicted, also is obvious that you need to shot an explosive weapon in short distance to reach your enemy, some entire maps in Warframe makes it impossible to shot explosive weapons in a large distance because the small dimensions of the rooms and the decorations in them.

It´s really disappointing to see how a fun game becomes so frustrating, making explosive weapons self damage does not stop players using them, self damage does not fix anything, just make the game unfair and stressful for the players.

If others does not like seeing how some players kill a lot of monsters using explosive weapons, just makes them become triggered.

Seeing yourself exploding yourself is stressful and makes the game unplayable using explosive weapons.

There are a lot of players that does not used explosive weapons as their first choice, not using it mean that is not your game style, that not mean that everyone must agree and be as well supporter of your game style, everyone have a game style, everyone prefer a game style over other, that does not make any game style less relevant or worthless than yours.

Remove self damage and fix the weapons correctly, maybe weapons does not even need a fix, no one would quit because seeing others using a good weapon that is asequible for everyone, much players would quit the game for seeing their favorite weapons being the worst enemy of the players now.

I hope moderators read this topic and the other hundred of topics that call for the same cause, implement real fix for the explosive weapons.

Dealing the enough damage to kill the player with the self damage is not a fix for any weapon.

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There are many comments disagreeing about removing self damage:

• Reason 1: Learn to aim.

Reply: Take in count the detonation in fragments of some explosive weapons, the really small accuracy of some explosive weapons, the monsters that appear suddenly in front of you, the possibility of someone that teleport you to the place you shot the explosive, the possibility of bounce again to you, the possibility of multi shot and miss one bullet, and the thousand of other possibilities that makes explosive weapons self-dangerous and unpractical for the use in-battle.

• Reason 2: It valance the weapons.

Reply: It does not valance the weapons, it valance the players. Self damage does not change the weapon any way, it just make the weapon so self-dangerous and worthless risk for most of players.

• Reason 3: Self damage makes the explosive weapons different than the others weapons in the game.

Reply: Being explosive weapons with graphics of an explosive weapon, already makes them different compared to other weapons, the munition of the explosive weapons are as different as a dread arrow and a marelok bullet. Bows can be converted to explosive and deal self damage, making explosive weapons and bows the same thing about the self damage, self damage as so is not something that makes any explosive weapon different to other weapons.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Solutions suggested by players to remove self damage /  fix over use of weapons / make the game more credible:

• Raise mastery rank requirement for more advanced weapons:

Mastery rank is so underrated, it should be raised up, for example tonkor, it should be at least rank 18. Higher mastery rank weapons should be better, and players must be work for them, some players don´t appreciate some weapons because they are too easy to get, if we make weapons harder to get, more players would work harder for them and know that for getting better weapons they must work for it.

• Make it fair, make ALL explosive weapons self damage in the game:

Make the enemies that uses explosive weapons be able to self damage themselves, that way it would be more coherent the self damage, is too obvious and ridiculous that only players damage themselves, make it fair, not all must be an inconvenience for the players.

• Make the shield more/totally resistant to self damage.

That would make the shield more credible, it defend the player, and makes the player more/totally resistant to self damage.

• Make a mod to reduce/nullify self damage:

Making a mod that will reduce the self damage, this mod could start cancelling all self damage or upgrading it to a limit, that limit of reduction of self damage could be as well to 100% or less.

• Fix the self damage:

I made a topic with a Mathematical formula that could fix the problem with the self damage:

Follow the next link to see the math formula to fix self damage: 

This link bring you to the Math formula I made to fix/improve self damage.

This link bring to the old topic I made for the math formula | Now the link bring to a topic discussion about self damage.

Edited July 18, 2017 by _firewings_

[Ceryk]

While I'm really neither for nor against removing self damage from explosive weapons, I will agree that a lot of players avoid them simply because of self damage and not due to playstyle preferences and that may not necessarily be in the best interest of weapon diversity... I avoid self damage weapons whenever possible even though some of them can be pretty fun to use as long as you don't blow yourself up.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Ceryk

[NinthAria]

The fix is to consider where you're aiming and be mindful of the risk.

[Shiichibukai]

Or you know, as someone said above, learn to aim? Dont say most players. You dont represent anyone. I am totally fine with self damage it makes me giggle when it happens and thats it. Either learn to aim or dont use the weapons, its fine the way it is otherwise there wouldnt be any balance for those type of weapons.

[_firewings_]

11 minutes ago, NinthAria said:

The fix is to consider where you're aiming and be mindful of the risk.

5 minutes ago, Shichibukai88 said:

Or you know, as someone said above, learn to aim? Dont say most players. You dont represent anyone. I am totally fine with self damage it makes me giggle when it happens and thats it. Either learn to aim or dont use the weapons, its fine the way it is otherwise there wouldnt be any balance for those type of weapons.

2 minutes ago, Valiant said:

Secondly, now you need to consider your environment and it reinforces the idea that not all weapons are meant for every battle. Much like sniper rifles.

When we get PoE I doubt there'll be much complaining about self-damage and more use of snipers too.

It was sort of like that and it made no difference and clearly didn't work as it trivalized content.

So it was not/is not irritating to teammates where those who used said weapons utterly destroyed everything in a quick amount of time? I get that we're meant to be powerful but I shouldn't have to be contending with teammates, come out of a match with barely any kills and have to resort to similar tactics to even get a edgeways in. People come here to play the game, not have the game played for them.

Removing self-damage isn't a solution. Those who can manage such weapons use them and know when to, do, those who clearly can't, do not.

I do, please, take in count the detonation in fragments of some explosive weapons, the really small accuracy of some explosive weapons, the monsters that appear suddenly in front of you, the possibility of someone that teleport you to the place you shot the explosive, the possibility of bounce again to you, the possibility of multi shot and miss one bullet, and the thousand of other possibilities that makes explosive weapons self-dangerous and unpractical for the use in-battle.

Edited July 17, 2017 by _firewings_

[Calvyr]

I laugh pretty much every time that I kill myself with my Zarr/Kulstar/whatever self murder machine I happen to be using. So I wouldn't say that it's ruining my enjoyment. I certainly don't laugh when using any other weapons.

[Valiant]

10 minutes ago, NinthAria said:

The fix is to consider where you're aiming and be mindful of the risk.

Secondly, now you also need to consider your environment and it reinforces the idea that not all weapons are meant for every battle. Much like sniper rifles.

When we get PoE I doubt there'll be much complaining about self-damage and more use of snipers too.

15 minutes ago, _firewings_ said:

Explosive weapons should be like this:

Pros:

• Medium/High damage.
• Medium/High hit box.

Cons:

• Short magazine.
• Short total ammo.
• Slow reload speed.
• Short distance for accuracy.

It was sort of like that before the change and it made no difference and clearly didn't work as it trivalized content, yet people always complained 'lulz this game is 2 ez'.

15 minutes ago, _firewings_ said:

So Warframe is a game, games should be fun, not to irritate you and your team mates.

So it was not/is not irritating to teammates where those who used said weapons utterly destroyed everything in a quick amount of time? I get that we're meant to be powerful but I shouldn't have to be contending with teammates to take part in a round, come out of a match with barely any kills and have to resort to similar tactics to even get a edgeways in.

Generally most people come here to play the game, not have the game played for them.

Removing self-damage isn't a solution. Those who can manage such weapons use them and know when to, do, those who clearly can't, do not.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Valiant

[Valiant]

4 minutes ago, _firewings_ said:

 

I do, please, take in count the detonation in fragments of some explosive weapons, the really small accuracy of some explosive weapons, the monsters that appear suddenly in front of you, the possibility of someone that teleport you to the place you shot the explosive, the possibility of bounce again to you, the possibility of multi shot and miss one bullet, and the thousand of other possibilities that makes explosive weapons self-dangerous and unpractical for the use in-battle.

Then once more, be more considerate of your environment and how you're using the weapon. Above all, taking your comment into account, keep your distance when you're using the rifle. It isn't meant for CQC if you can't manage the risk. If you're having that many troubles with the randomness of multishot, remove the mod.

Self-damage shouldn't be removed because of the game's random issues (multi shot aside). It should be the game that is fixed instead.

[AEP8FlyBoy]

"Self Damage is ruining most of players enjoyment"

Most players don't use launchers because of Self Damage, therefore no enjoyment is being ruined. Players can find an equal or greater amount of enjoyment in Bows/Snipers/Daggers/Throwing Stars/Assault Rifles etc...

Also, when using weapons that can blow a room of enemies to kingdom come. You better believe that the same thing can happen to you if you aren't careful.
That's what explosives do, they don't care what is in the way. I can understand it can be quite infuriating at times, but that's why I use normal hit-scan weapons. I like having to aim for my kills, and not worrying about blowing myself up in the process.

Edited July 17, 2017 by AEP8FlyBoy

[Fearless_Observer]

I'm guessing that you were not present on the glorious days of the "no self damage Tonkor". Those were the days... xD

And then I had to learn how to aim properly and to position myself so that this wouldn't happen to me:

"Self damage is ruining most of players enjoyment" - where was I when that survey was made???

 

3 minutes ago, Valiant said:

Those who can manage such weapons use them and know when to, do, those who clearly can't, do not.

^^ 

PS - You still have the Torid, which is an infested variant of the Ogris which fires gaseous grenades, but it doesn't have the cool explosions.

[Urlan]

Would it be better if enemies using the same weapons could also self-damage themselves?

[Fearless_Observer]

Just now, Urlan said:

Would it be better if enemies using the same weapons could also self-damage themselves?

That would be hilarious, but they have that aimbot precision though...

[Ryme]

Just now, Urlan said:

Would it be better if enemies using the same weapons could also self-damage themselves?

Nah, because then they'd be subject to the arbitrary flight paths and random instant explosions that Warframe weapons are, and would end up killing themselves most of the time.

[_firewings_]

I am updating the topic to add other point of view. (Not done yet).

Edited July 17, 2017 by _firewings_

[Urlan]

Just now, Ryme said:

Nah, because then they'd be subject to the arbitrary flight paths and random instant explosions that Warframe weapons are, and would end up killing themselves most of the time.

To be fair, that seems like it would be both hilarious and fitting considering the very real power and risk inherent in such weapons as many players have already stated here. I don't know about you, but I would get a belly chuckle trying to aim a Bombard's seeking rockets into their own hitbox.

[YUNoJump]

I think explosive rounds should pass through allied characters instead of just splatting on your teammate who just happened to zoom past, hitting you in the process. I shouldn't have to watch out for my teammates, a team shouldn't have liabilities.

However I agree with others in saying that self damage is a good way to organically balance explosive weapons, and as we saw with the Tonkor, removing self damage is a great way to just create a rock-hard meta of god weapons. If we don't have self damage, then all explosive weapons basically deal tonnes more damage over a much larger range compared to everything else, and have no drawbacks or solid range restrictions (most launchers other than the thrown ones have reliable accuracy and a dependable arc/travel time, at least before multishot). Unless we want to just see nothing but explosive weapons in every mission, the only other way to balance them is to reduce their damage below the level of non-explosive weapons, effectively ruining the whole class through stat balancing, rather than self damage balancing through a real gameplay mechanic that forces players to think about where they're aiming and to lead targets properly.

In fact, the Tonkor is really the only launcher that requires you to land direct hits, every other launcher can either detonate in mid-air, or explode off of a surface. It's really not hard if you've ever used a non-hitscan gun. Don't use launchers when enemies are near you, get the high ground or even just Wall Latch and fire down. 

[Ragingwasabi]

self damage is a great way of balancing aoe weapons. im glad DE realises this, even tho some whingey players dont because its too hard.

[LSG501]

OP you kind of forgot the bit where the other players get fed up with reviving you and let you die because you brought a weapon that can kill you and aren't using rhino to counter it...

While I understand things like the tonkor need some sort of downside, making them into 1 shot self kill weapons is not the way to go when you have a p2p network based game with all the inherent issues that can bring if you get a toaster or slow internet as a host. 

 

[Ragingwasabi]

2 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

OP you kind of forgot the bit where the other players get fed up with reviving you and let you die because you brought a weapon that can kill you and aren't using rhino to counter it...

While I understand things like the tonkor need some sort of downside, making them into 1 shot self kill weapons is not the way to go when you have a p2p network based game with all the inherent issues that can bring if you get a toaster or slow internet as a host. 

 

i agree. while self damage is good, 1 hit ko self damage can be pretty bad.  but this will be fixed as soon as DE releases shield gating

[Ventasis]

The only issue I can think of is sometimes allies will run in front of you as you're firing, resulting in your death. I've also had times where the projectiles would detonate early in mid-air killing me in the process. Both of these points are problems. 

Self damage is ultimately good though. It adds a new dimension to launchers that make them feel different from other weapons. You actually have to be careful with where you're aiming which is a game all on its own. Plus, once landscapes take off, it wont be as big of a deal due to the open fields they provide. We'll also be able to shoot from the sky on our archwing, eliminating any chance of self damage. 

 

[JalakBali]

2 hours ago, Ventasis said:

The only issue I can think of is sometimes allies will run in front of you as you're firing, resulting in your death. I've also had times where the projectiles would detonate early in mid-air killing me in the process. Both of these points are problems. 

Self damage is ultimately good though. It adds a new dimension to launchers that make them feel different from other weapons. You actually have to be careful with where you're aiming which is a game all on its own. Plus, once landscapes take off, it wont be as big of a deal due to the open fields they provide. We'll also be able to shoot from the sky on our archwing, eliminating any chance of self damage. 

 

Agreeing with this.

Self damage is good trade off for weapons that could a clump of enemies in one shot. The problem with the current explosive weapon is actually their low damage (except for Tonkor). What is the advantage of using an explosive weapon that could kill you if it couldn't one-shot heavy enemies? Might as well use a shotgun. The Tonkor is the only explosive that is reliable good at clearing clumps of enemies but it is slow and has an arc and the bounce is an added risk to self harm. I tried an Ogris, even with a Riven, after the buff. Still nowhere near the Tonkor and way below any shotgun in terms of killing power.

 

Shield gating might actually sorta solve the self-harm of explosive weapons by giving you one chance of screwing up. But I'm more concerned in their not-as-adequate DPS potential.

[StinkyPygmy]

3 hours ago, Ryme said:

Nah, because then they'd be subject to the arbitrary flight paths and random instant explosions that Warframe weapons are, and would end up killing themselves most of the time.

Strange.... never had that issue with any explosive weapon... ever...

[Fallen_Echo]

7 hours ago, Ragingwasabi said:

self damage is a great way of balancing aoe weapons. im glad DE realises this, even tho some whingey players dont because its too hard.

You are wrong here becuase mainly weapons with base Blast damage have self damage the only expectation is the Javlok.

Simulor, ignis, scourge, pox, torid, staticor, sonicor dont have self damage.

Hell even the Zarr got its self damage removed on its secondary bomblets.

You know why we have self damage? Because other games have self damage on their explosive guns. No balance reasons and such, its just a copycat reaction and even as that its badly designed because in most games, especially nowadays we have damage falloff on explosions.

Even if we would argue on balance reasons, what do they balance? My ogris what is unable to decently kill targets? My riven kulstar what shots 5 rockets per load and still has problems with taking out an Akkad ancient infested at wave 10?

Seriously the only guns what "must" have this for balance are the tonkor and the secura penta, becuase no other explosive weapon can manage to kill that reliably as them.

[Shikkoku]

I think it would be a good thing to make self dmg do fixed  percentage of your current health, so you wont'k kill yourself instantly. BTW enemies got much stronger since they brought in self-damage. Back then You could go 100 waves on ODD with a well modded penta alone. 

Self dmg is a good idea, but, when we need a ton of dmg on enemies, and we have so little health pool... 
So on theor high level, lvl 100 see a bombard vs a pure dmg Secura penta vs you: Bombard at lvl 100 have 1268172 effective health (with no dmg type modifier I counted it on the weapon dmg ) 
A Secura penta with (Serration, Heavy Caliber, 4 elemental dmg mod (radiation + viral)(cyro rounds is primed max.) Wildfire, adhesive blast) do 18798 dmg on Alloy armor (on average with the 10% crit chance) An excalibur with Vitality, Steel fiber, Redirection, Vigor, have 3075 effective health for the 18798 dmg .... as you see you don't do 2% dmg to the bombard but you are punished with instakill on you if you do a mistake! 

Well i know it's not like that, who goes against lvl 100 grineer without 4 CP then the numbers are 44405 health for the bombard ~18950
 dmg from the penta now you do ~50% dmg, but still instakill on you. So for self dmg a fix % dmg would be great. be it 25 or 50... so it would be fair. 

Oh and the bombard instakill you with his Ogris, As it does 3094 dmg on your 3075 eff health 
btw Excal because it's the most average frame with average stats so it's not supposed to be squishy  

 

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Shikkoku

[Mokkun108]

Don't be under impression launchers are high damage, thus they suffer from self damage. Against lvl 100 corrupted heavy gunner secura penta, zarr, even tonkor(after nerf) deal laughable amount of damage. It is not fair how we can kill us with one shot, and it takes 18 shots vs. heavily armored high level enemy units like bombards. So-called self damage should not be justified by their "power", of which they have none.

No one in their right mind would rely on these excuses for a primary on a long T4 survival or defense. Who wants to revive a teammate all the time with nullifiers, bombards and napalms' oversized AOE's nearby? I mean the self damage looks fine on low planets like earth, venus etc. but in reality self damage is very risky and detrimental to a whole squad when doing the high tier missions.

I'll never touch them. The only thing that matters is corrosive projection anyway.