Self damage is ruining the explosive weapons & Fix suggestions

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, Mokkun108 said:

Don't be under impression launchers are high damage, thus they suffer from self damage. Against lvl 100 corrupted heavy gunner secura penta, zarr, even tonkor(after nerf) deal laughable amount of damage. It is not fair how we can kill us with one shot, and it takes 18 shots vs. heavily armored high level enemy units like bombards. So-called self damage should not be justified by their "power", of which they have none.

No one in their right mind would rely on these excuses for a primary on a long T4 survival or defense. Who wants to revive a teammate all the time with nullifiers, bombards and napalms' oversized AOE's nearby? I mean the self damage looks fine on low planets like earth, venus etc. but in reality self damage is very risky and detrimental to a whole squad when doing the high tier missions.

I'll never touch them. The only thing that matters is corrosive projection anyway.

Well said, this is not borderlands where your rocketlaucher literally melts high level enemies into puddles of flesh, our rocket laucher barely scratches lv60 enemies and the fact that i MUST get a riven to make them usable doesnt help their reputation.

[YUNoJump]

16 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

You are wrong here becuase mainly weapons with base Blast damage have self damage the only expectation is the Javlok.

Simulor, ignis, scourge, pox, torid, staticor, sonicor dont have self damage.

Hell even the Zarr got its self damage removed on its secondary bomblets.

You know why we have self damage? Because other games have self damage on their explosive guns. No balance reasons and such, its just a copycat reaction and even as that its badly designed because in most games, especially nowadays we have damage falloff on explosions.

Warframe isn't just copying other games for the sake of it, it's copying other games' good design choices. If there was no self-damage in say, CoD, you could do dumb stuff like use a rocket launcher at point blank range for cheap kills, or cook a grenade within a millisecond of explosion and just charge the enemy. Just because it's in another game doesn't mean doing the same thing is "copying".

Blast damage weapons also have the proc, most Blast weapons have a guaranteed/very high chance to proc Blast on every shot, something like the Pox doesn't do that, it just damages. I'd make the claim that the Sonicor is OP, but it's damage still isn't near the damage of any Blast weapon (it has 150 impact, IIRC the Ogris has 500 blast and it's not even considered good)

16 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Even if we would argue on balance reasons, what do they balance? My ogris what is unable to decently kill targets? My riven kulstar what shots 5 rockets per load and still has problems with taking out an Akkad ancient infested at wave 10?

9 hours ago, Mokkun108 said:

Against lvl 100 corrupted heavy gunner secura penta, zarr, even tonkor(after nerf) deal laughable amount of damage.

Blast launchers don't have as much direct DPS as a lot of non-AoE weapons (Tonkor is an exception of course), but the point of the weapon is to deal damage over an AREA. Fire one into a crowd of guys and see how much damage it does to every enemy there, add all of those numbers together and you've just dealt an absolutely huge amount of damage. Don't test AoE weapons on single targets, if you want a high single target damage weapon, bring the Tigris Prime.

 

[Fallen_Echo]

10 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Warframe isn't just copying other games for the sake of it, it's copying other games' good design choices. If there was no self-damage in say, CoD, you could do dumb stuff like use a rocket launcher at point blank range for cheap kills, or cook a grenade within a millisecond of explosion and just charge the enemy. Just because it's in another game doesn't mean doing the same thing is "copying".

You miss a key element here, in all those games the weapons you have are actually able to kill the targets. Self damage is just here because all explosives in games have it, if that wouldnt been the case then every aoe based weapon would deal self damage, hell even the ignis would deal self damage as flames hurt.

 

14 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Blast damage weapons also have the proc, most Blast weapons have a guaranteed/very high chance to proc Blast on every shot, something like the Pox doesn't do that, it just damages. I'd make the claim that the Sonicor is OP, but it's damage still isn't near the damage of any Blast weapon (it has 150 impact, IIRC the Ogris has 500 blast and it's not even considered good

No they dont.

The penta at base has 10% chance to proc blast, the explosion too has the same chance to proc it.

The pox creates a toxic cloud for 4 seconds with 35% proc chance what is effectively better and it does not deal self damage.

The difference between the sonicor and the ogris is that the sonicor despite having less base damage is somehow still better than the ogris.

28 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Blast launchers don't have as much direct DPS as a lot of non-AoE weapons (Tonkor is an exception of course), but the point of the weapon is to deal damage over an AREA. Fire one into a crowd of guys and see how much damage it does to every enemy there, add all of those numbers together and you've just dealt an absolutely huge amount of damage. Don't test AoE weapons on single targets, if you want a high single target damage weapon, bring the Tigris Prime.

Look if a frickin rocket launcher can effectively kill a single target i start to doubt it effectiveness. If i want some good high damage aoe weapons i would get the torid, pox, staticor, sonicor or well anything what reliable and safe.

Explosions in better games are just as good in killing single targets as taking out of crowds. It doesnt matter if i shoot at 1 grinner or 10 if they still continue to attack me after the initial shot.

[YUNoJump]

9 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

You miss a key element here, in all those games the weapons you have are actually able to kill the targets. Self damage is just here because all explosives in games have it, if that wouldnt been the case then every aoe based weapon would deal self damage, hell even the ignis would deal self damage as flames hurt.

Yes, there's an element of realism here, the same way ammo capacity, the requirement of reloading and carrying only 3 weapons is also an element of realism, but they balance the game. The difference between Blast-launcher self-damage and something like the Ignis is range, realistically launchers can fire incredibly far if you lead targets correctly, and you can fire-and-forget on a lot of them. Many can effectively be set as mines (Penta with Adhesive Blast, Castanas/Talons), which means you don't really need to aim at all, just press alt-fire when an enemy is near. The Ignis works in a short-mid range cone in front of you, the gas cloud weapons don't have any CC potential without more elements. Blast launchers let you easily land hits at mid-long range, hit a lot of enemies at once, and potentially send entire crowds flying off into space, hence the balancing aspect of self-damage. 

16 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

No they dont.

The penta at base has 10% chance to proc blast, the explosion too has the same chance to proc it.

The pox creates a toxic cloud for 4 seconds with 35% proc chance what is effectively better and it does not deal self damage.

The difference between the sonicor and the ogris is that the sonicor despite having less base damage is somehow still better than the ogris.

My experience with Blast procs on launchers has definitely been that blast procs frequently happen, I would really dispute the listings of 10% proc chance for Blast on launchers, in the same way that the Tysis has a 100% proc chance of Corrosive but 10% for everything else. As above, Pox clouds deal damage but enemies aren't CC'd by them, so it's apples and oranges. 

Honestly the Sonicor needs to deal less damage if it's going to fire so fast and knock down every shot, but it has no self-damage because its shots actually explode in the air after 15m, it would be fully impossible to use with self-damage. It hasn't got anywhere near as much range as standard launchers.

24 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Look if a frickin rocket launcher can effectively kill a single target i start to doubt it effectiveness. If i want some good high damage aoe weapons i would get the torid, pox, staticor, sonicor or well anything what reliable and safe.

Explosions in better games are just as good in killing single targets as taking out of crowds. It doesnt matter if i shoot at 1 grinner or 10 if they still continue to attack me after the initial shot.

You can't say "self-damage just copies other games" and then expect non-self-damage to actually copy other games. Warframe isn't all shooter, it's got a lot of RPG elements, so weapons that don't one-shot aren't automatically terrible. They might not instakill, but if you fight 10 guys by instakilling them one-by-one with something like the Tigris, Hek or any sniper/bow, then the final score isn't going to look different compared to firing 3-4 shots at all of them at once, and killing every single one on the last shot.

In most standard shooters, launchers are considered special weapons; that you don't use as your only gun, put away for 90% of the mission, and only fire at crucial points. In Warframe they're considered a main weapon, and the only time you are obligated to put them away is if you want to shoot something at very close range. If they just dealt tonnes more damage than anything else, with no drawback then they'd be flat op.

I could support launchers getting some buffs so that they are a bit closer to some of the meta stuff in terms of group-dps vs single-dps, but self damage is a good, organic balancing mechanic that should be maintained through that damage balancing. The old Tonkor had no self-damage and it was considered OP as heck.

[Shikkoku]

Self damage is good, but not in this form, enemy units have too much effective health, and so our weapons have to do tons of dmg, it was a long self generating process, people found ways to kill enemies as efficiently as DE didn't intend, so the put harder enemies, and it started over again, when they brought in self-dmg on these weapons, it solved the problem, but now it's just ridiculous. It was a nerf, when Penta and Ogris were OP. 

You can do multi target dmg in this game with punch through mods as enemy units tend to go in groups in narrow corridors, so AoE is not that big thing, but the mistake is overpunished, and there is no other weapon type that have any punish on the player for do a mistake. Well in 90% of the times when I kill myself with secura penta, is when one of my squadmates appears in front of me out of nothing when i'm firing the weapon and it's ricochet on his back to me... 

So your own weapon shouldn't instakill you, do a % dmg on your health would be much better, still punishing but not overwhelming. You still would die for not using it carefully, but would not always die from a tiny mistake.  

[Lancars]

My issue with the explosive self damage is you have so many small melee units that seem to circle around you at the worst of time. Imagine a butcher jumps right into your crosshairs as you go to fire and BAm you go down cause of it. There are to many things come at you fast to even bother with explosive. I don't use any of them anymore cause its a liability.

Worse is when its infested as they end up being very janky and teleporty.

[DeadScream]

I think we should just consider using explosive weapons only when the enemy is at a fair and secure distance from us. It clears the lines, and as soon as they are getting too close, then change for secondary weapon or melee to engage them. 

What should be changed is the weapon swap speed. 

Add shield gating and a faster swap speed to the game, and explosives (and sniper rifles) could find their use. 

[Windy_Wind]

Well, shield gating is coming soon TM, it will fix the problem.

[low1991]

On 7/18/2017 at 6:15 AM, NinthAria said:

The fix is to consider where you're aiming and be mindful of the risk.

Agreed with the fix if weapons like Orgis' projectile get lagged and somehow for some reason manage to hit you back. (AMD sticking to me when cast infront w/o moving during lag, assumed same for orgis).

[Insizer]

I think it is fair for them to do self damage because they are so powerful.

And frankly, some of your preemptive replies in the first post don't make much sense.

Also, linking their damage to shields wouldn't work because... well inaros and nidus dont have shields.

[Tesseract7777]

Explosive weapons simply need to do some self damage for balance reasons. 

However, perhaps it's a bit much. I have toyed with the idea of an explosion only doing a percentage of your health, with more damage the closer you are to the explosion. To reward more skilled play. 

However, once shield gating comes, unless you are just exploding yourself over and over, you shouldn't have a problem. And if you are exploding yourself constantly when using a launcher weapon, you are doing something wrong. 

Shield gating will fix this issue and prevent the occasional accident. 

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

I'm not for removing it but if like it if they made it do something like a static 50% of your current health. That way if a team mate does run in front of you if wont put you into bleed out.

[KazeUindo]

I know Tonkor used to be best launcher in the game AND scaled to where you can still deal with 100+ enemies, but can someone tell which launcher are okay to good past level 60 enemies minus rivens? I understand the single target damage should not be able to beat things like a bow or rifles, but I feel AOE damage is lacking where it should be shining. Plenty of times risk does not match reward(less killing yourself and more killing GROUPS enemies).

[DSkycroft]

The only self-damaging weapon I ever use is the Orvius. I only really have a problem with it when I am locking on to an enemy and it explodes on an enemy that ran up behind me instead of what I am aiming at. I am fine with self damage,but I do think it should be slightly reduced,as it isn't exactly fair that I get one shot by my own weapon because I don't have eyes in the back of my head.

[Mousarchy]

my suggestion. Increase the damage/spash/ amount of sheer death and terror. reduce ammo cap. leave self damage.

honestly my only issue is that at times certain launchers just dont feel up to snuff. but I use explosives in EVERY game i get my hand on. and i cant give you no philosophical or even logical reason why I find self damage on explosives more enjoyable.

[(PSN)DBR87]

I honestly feel as though Explosive weapons should at the most do 50% of your EHP. There are times where you'll be playing the game like a pro, you're at a safe distance from a crowd your bombarding with munitions and all of a sudden a Flameblade warps in your face and your both dead. That's not a lack of skill, that is just RNG....or Allah Akbar...either way.

I would hardly believe no one here hasn't been in a void visure where a nully spawns ontop of you. Now imagine if you had a Orgris...

There has to be a compromise or else most of the launcher won't see as much use as other Primaries and it'll pretty much only be Zarr, Simulor and Torid getting wide spread use because they are safer with Penta trailing behind.

Secondary launchers need a damage buff. They tickle high level enemies but still one shot you...

[genclaymore]

I actually haven't had any issues with the self damage in an year or an tad more, I started expecting random tennos to run in front of me as I charging, so I cancel the charge and let them do there thing while I switch to another weapon. What they could do is have it where it completely drain your shields, while giving you an slight charge delay. Which can not be modded by mods. If you do it again before it charge back up, then you blow up into million of pieces.

 A lot of the self blowing up can be avoided by always expecting them to step in front of you.I have done high tier missions with Explosive weapons without issues due to this. But I tend to make sure I away and keep my eyes peeled for drunk warframe drivers, who strafe,run and stop in front of you. But still They could tone it down an bit, they don't have to completely remove it, but at-least tweaked it.

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by genclaymore

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Self-damage gating for all self-damaging weapons is the only viable solution to this problem. It should have been done 4 years ago. It's a very stupid problem that forces people away from self-damaging weapons - because nobody wants a suicide gun when you could use something that deals just as much damage (or usulally way more) and doesn't hurt you at all.

 Same logic, btw, works with sentinels and vacuum. Vacuum should have been inbuilt into warframes themselves as passive four years ago - just to let people use other companions without losing such an important QOL.

[DreamsmithJane]

Is this another one of those threads where most people say "the fix is to get good", and someone gets mad? Self damage itself is the solution to another problem: weapons that can kill many enemies at once are inherently better than weapons that can only kill one or two enemies at a time, or weapons that can kill many enemies over an extended period of time. If you couldn't blow yourself up, there would be no reason to use any gun that's not explosive. There are a couple hundred unique weapons in this game, many with interesting variants, and they all deserve a chance to shine. That can't happen if the best choice is always "blow everything up, except yourself", and requires no actual effort or care.

To tell the truth, it's not even a problem unless you're playing completely recklessly. There is no reason that carrying a Tonkor, Zarr, or Penta should mean your team becomes burdened or annoyed, or you run out of revives. The fix is, quite sincerely, to stop hitting yourself, and only that. Honestly, what did you think would happen when you fired a grenade launcher at point blank? Don't do that. And if you do, I've got about eighty billion stacks of New Moon waiting for you, because nobody else is dying, most of the time. The game is already too easy. And if instant revives aren't enough, maybe shield gating will relieve some of your worries.

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Same logic, btw, works with sentinels and vacuum. Vacuum should have been inbuilt into warframes themselves as passive four years ago - just to let people use other companions without losing such an important QOL.

Vacuum is not a QoL improvement. It wastes pickups topping me off when I'm only missing one energy, health, or bullet. I really, really don't want it permanently active on all my warframes.

[TKDancer]

another issue: self dmg from glaives

 

its WAY too damn high, and when u are trying to use the Orviu's special throw, the one that seeks enemies and holds them up, if an enemy gets too close at the last second, or if another enemy appears from the side/behind the orvius will chase them and blow up in ur face, and u cant really do anything besides not using it

[Fallen_Echo]

Self damage is just too high when you consider what it does to the enemy.

My suggestion is a system what takes into account the avarage health (with armor and shield values) of the current level enemies and damages you with the same percentages. If it can only deal 50% health damage to the enemy you face then when you derped your shot it will only damage you for 50% of your max ehp.

[YUNoJump]

12 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Self damage is just too high when you consider what it does to the enemy.

My suggestion is a system what takes into account the avarage health (with armor and shield values) of the current level enemies and damages you with the same percentages. If it can only deal 50% health damage to the enemy you face then when you derped your shot it will only damage you for 50% of your max ehp.

That's an idea but what if you don't hit an enemy at all? It could calculate it based on the current level and faction of the enemies you're facing, but some factions use damage reduction abilities and auras (most notably Ancients), so just calculating damage based on enemy health isn't accurate. That and different enemies have vastly different health pools, compare the EHP of an Orokin Drone or Corrupted Butcher to a Heavy Gunner or Bombard. 

[(PSN)CrimsonAxure]

For me, It's only frustrating when fighting Stalker

[Fallen_Echo]

30 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

That's an idea but what if you don't hit an enemy at all? It could calculate it based on the current level and faction of the enemies you're facing, but some factions use damage reduction abilities and auras (most notably Ancients), so just calculating damage based on enemy health isn't accurate. That and different enemies have vastly different health pools, compare the EHP of an Orokin Drone or Corrupted Butcher to a Heavy Gunner or Bombard. 

My idea would only take in account the health shield and armor modifiers of the current level of the enemy faction and make it into an avarage amount. This would be the most fair way to do it.

[Colyeses]

My suggestion: Remove self damage. Replace with the wielder getting knocked down if in their own blast radius. It has plenty, plenty of drawback, without making a large quantity of weapons largely unusable.