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Mudfam

Update 21 broke Quick Thinking

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So, as of update 21 Quick Thinking causes constant lethal stagger locks from even weak sources of damage, including DoT effects.

At first glance this looks like a reversal of the fixes to Quick Thinking made in update 11 back in 2013. This when the Rage/QT combo was still really strong (for almost 2 years after), and when enemy levels in common missions where much, much lower.

The threshold for a stagger now appears to be as low as ~50 damage. Even a level 20 sapping osprey can stagger, and multiple overlapping sapping zones can mean certain death with no chance of escape.

In higher level missions surviving with low armour frames has become a matter of luck. A single unseen lowly trooper shooting through vegetation will stagger lock kill you. Vitals failing in JV results in stagger lock until death without a chance to acquire charges. The damage reduction from rolling and bullet jumping is no longer enough to prevent staggers.

This has honestly made the game almost unplayably frustrating with frames that aren't tanky or have strong defensive abilities. There are various frames that will get one shot by common enemies in the level 100 range, and now quick thinking mostly ensures that all energy will also be lost after having a very frustrating moment of complete helplessness.


If this change was intentional I don't understand the motivation. The game already suffers from a huge imbalance in EHP between different frames, and it's not like tanky/invisible etc. frames sacrifice something for the luxury, the list includes some of the all round strongest frames in the game. This just leaves squishy frames even further behind, while tanky frames still benefit from QT thanks to damage reduction preventing staggers.

This is definitely a step in the completely wrong direction. If this was a stealth nerf then I think we deserve an explanation and some clarity! If this is a bug then I think it should be fixed with the highest priority. Either way this is totally killing my enjoyment of the game. It's like having an ultra frustrating RNG death mechanic.


I'm aware that there is a thread where this topic is being discussed, however it did not specifically address the changes made in Update 21 and this causes a lot of confused arguing about separate issues.

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There should be 3s period after qt stagger when you cant get staggered and knocked down.

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On 7/25/2017 at 8:43 AM, Mudfam said:

So, as of update 21 Quick Thinking causes constant lethal stagger locks from even weak sources of damage, including DoT effects.

At first glance this looks like a reversal of the fixes to Quick Thinking made in update 11 back in 2013. This when the Rage/QT combo was still really strong (for almost 2 years after), and when enemy levels in common missions where much, much lower.

The threshold for a stagger now appears to be as low as ~50 damage. Even a level 20 sapping osprey can stagger, and multiple overlapping sapping zones can mean certain death with no chance of escape.

In higher level missions surviving with low armour frames has become a matter of luck. A single unseen lowly trooper shooting through vegetation will stagger lock kill you. Vitals failing in JV results in stagger lock until death without a chance to acquire charges. The damage reduction from rolling and bullet jumping is no longer enough to prevent staggers.

This has honestly made the game almost unplayably frustrating with frames that aren't tanky or have strong defensive abilities. There are various frames that will get one shot by common enemies in the level 100 range, and now quick thinking mostly ensures that all energy will also be lost after having a very frustrating moment of complete helplessness.


If this change was intentional I don't understand the motivation. The game already suffers from a huge imbalance in EHP between different frames, and it's not like tanky/invisible etc. frames sacrifice something for the luxury, the list includes some of the all round strongest frames in the game. This just leaves squishy frames even further behind, while tanky frames still benefit from QT thanks to damage reduction preventing staggers.

This is definitely a step in the completely wrong direction. If this was a stealth nerf then I think we deserve an explanation and some clarity! If this is a bug then I think it should be fixed with the highest priority. Either way this is totally killing my enjoyment of the game. It's like having an ultra frustrating RNG death mechanic.


I'm aware that there is a thread where this topic is being discussed, however it did not specifically address the changes made in Update 21 and this causes a lot of confused arguing about separate issues.

So i havent tested with many frames, but I am not having issues with the extra staggering that you mentioned...I am on console, but i dont think that would make a difference since console is now on U21.  I wonder what the difference is here because everyone is complaining about it, but on my atlas i just stand there and take heavy gunner fire and when i go below 2 health i still dont stagger...hmmm

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)supersocc11 said:

 but on my atlas i just stand there and take heavy gunner fire and when i go below 2 health i still dont stagger...hmmm

Isn't atlas immune to knockdowns and stagger while on the ground?  So the issues people are seeing wouldn't apply to him due to his passive.

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5 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Isn't atlas immune to knockdowns and stagger while on the ground?  So the issues people are seeing wouldn't apply to him due to his passive.

true, but he still gets staggered by rockets and stuff.  just not small fire.

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2 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Isn't atlas immune to knockdowns and stagger while on the ground?  So the issues people are seeing wouldn't apply to him due to his passive.

I wouldn't know tbh, but also worth noting is that Atlas has a lot of armour. The damage reduction from armour increases the stagger threshold so that only stronger hits will stagger. The issue is with frames that don't have armour or other sources of damage reduction, which incidentally are the ones that need the mod the most to avoid being one shot beyond low levels.

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23 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

I wouldn't know tbh, but also worth noting is that Atlas has a lot of armour. The damage reduction from armour increases the stagger threshold so that only stronger hits will stagger. The issue is with frames that don't have armour or other sources of damage reduction, which incidentally are the ones that need the mod the most to avoid being one shot beyond low levels.

You are correct.  Just tested this on multiple frames.  Even Excal who is middle of the road armor with maxed steel fiber started staggering all over the place from fire from 1 heavy gunner....Seems like QT is now only good for frames with high armor.

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6 minutes ago, (Xbox One)dude1286 said:

Maybe DE should spend more time fixing damage and armor scaling instead of focusing on band-aid solutions?

Perhaps DE  shouldn't introduce bugs so that we have to ask for a fix.....

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ever since the change to the QT/rage interaction, there really has been no point in the 'stagger' =[ ; it just a super annoyance that makes users of these mods unnecessarily suffer, and basically says, 'just use vigor or vitality or steel fiber instead' 

IMHO the stagger should be removed or at the very least only be allowed to proc once, when the QT effect kicks in at the point that you have no more hp and have to start converting energy, but then the stagger should not proc again at all until you heal back upto full hp and then only be able to proc the stagger if you then from full hp, are again reduced down low enough to have to convert from energy again

and while we're at it, it would be nice if reflex guard was buffed since blocking is so garbage now =/ ; and/or blocking could/should be buffed as well

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12 minutes ago, Nirrel said:

Perhaps DE  shouldn't introduce bugs so that we have to ask for a fix.....

I don't think they introduce them on purpose :P

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4 minutes ago, Dradonhunter11 said:

I don't think they introduce them on purpose :P

Or do they, I'm not so sure anymore in this case... :P

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