Ash bladestorm

[Fallen_Echo]

I know guys, another feedback on this one beating the dead horse but please bear with me.

I offer a simple way to fix the clunkiness and the slowness of this skill.

Instead of this targeting nonsense make the Bladestorm work in the same way as other ults.

Ash goes into an area, casts bladestorm and shadow clones start to murder the group inside the area. No more targeting, afk playing or watching as you slowly auto whack enemies.

You just go in cast the skill and for a continous drain your clones do the work while you can continue playing.

For a bonus it would be nice if we could pre-set how much damage the clones should deal with this system before coming to the mission with an energy slider. More energy, more damage.

[Hypernaut1]

Play Ember

[Nazrethim]

That was DE's initial idea, and was the dumbest idea ever. So they went with the second dumbest idea ever and we are stuck with Failstorm ever since.

[el_chanis]

It should be just clones. Pure and simple. You want them to execute enemies? Equipo Fatal Teleport. You want them to remove armor? Equip Seeking shurikens (or some corrosive weapon :P). In other words... spectres. This would be a completely new skill compared to other frames and will have hilarius interactions with them (trinity healing them, rhino buffing, volt blurring...). They should have their own scaling and not interfere with your control over Ash. The skill remains strong, ash stops being a mouse-swing-then-afk-4-fest

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

2 hours ago, el_chanis said:

It should be just clones. Pure and simple. You want them to execute enemies? Equipo Fatal Teleport. You want them to remove armor? Equip Seeking shurikens (or some corrosive weapon :P). In other words... spectres. This would be a completely new skill compared to other frames and will have hilarius interactions with them (trinity healing them, rhino buffing, volt blurring...). They should have their own scaling and not interfere with your control over Ash. The skill remains strong, ash stops being a mouse-swing-then-afk-4-fest

So now instead of ash busting some martial fury moves, the badass ninja Assassin just summon Spectors that can just do his job for him? I can already see people using your bladestorm and Afk in a hiding spot.

[el_chanis]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

So now instead of ash busting some martial fury moves, the badass ninja Assassin just summon Spectors that can just do his job for him? I can already see people using your bladestorm and Afk in a hiding spot.

unlike the old (and new) bladestorm, ash wouldnt be invulnerable. There would be just clones, doesn't pull extra aggro or anything like it.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

2 hours ago, el_chanis said:

unlike the old (and new) bladestorm, ash wouldnt be invulnerable. There would be just clones, doesn't pull extra aggro or anything like it.

Ash may not be invulnerable, but that won't matter since he can just use smokescreen to avoid damage and just let his clones do all the work while ash can just run around and collect resources or afk with a sentinel using vacuum

[NinjaZeku]

Why not a happy (?) medium, keep the current targeting mechanic but upon activation,
you send out shadow clones to do all the killing, instead of Ash being locked into a cutscene. Which is dumb.

To not have the special animations / camera shenanigans go to waste, move those over to Fatal Teleport,
that would also fix the problem of Finishers not always triggering on that.

[Fallen_Echo]

10 hours ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

So now instead of ash busting some martial fury moves, the badass ninja Assassin just summon Spectors that can just do his job for him? I can already see people using your bladestorm and Afk in a hiding spot.

To be fair i didnt mean physical clones like specters only shadow illusions around the enemies what continously damage them.

Ash could continue doing his work while these ghosts would levitate around him attacking every enemy around him. They cant stop/stunlock them they only deal damage.

Or even better just change the whole thing into an actual bladestrom where ash summons a bunch of blades what violently circle around him.

[Hypernaut1]

DE has tried those ideas and it wasn't true to the design of the frame. Bladestorm IS Ash. If you don't like it, you probably just need to play a different frame. 

Ash is not a stance frame or a summon frame. He's an assassin that picks his targets and kills directly. His skill set is not made for killing tons of trash mobs faster than everyone else. He goes after high priority targets to take them out. In high level play his "slow" ult becomes one of the fastest ways to dispatch the toughest enemies. That's his purpose, not killing fodder. He uses weapons for that. 

Sure they're could be improvements made to BS, but they are not going to scrap it completely. Especially when it actually has a unique mechanic attached to it. I'm all for diversity instead of creating yet another copycat ult that's just a reskin of another.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

DE has tried those ideas and it wasn't true to the design of the frame. Bladestorm IS Ash. If you don't like it, you probably just need to play a different frame. 

Ash is not a stance frame or a summon frame. He's an assassin that picks his targets and kills directly. His skill set is not made for killing tons of trash mobs faster than everyone else. He goes after high priority targets to take them out. In high level play his "slow" ult becomes one of the fastest ways to dispatch the toughest enemies. That's his purpose, not killing fodder. He uses weapons for that. 

Sure they're could be improvements made to BS, but they are not going to scrap it completely. Especially when it actually has a unique mechanic attached to it. I'm all for diversity instead of creating yet another copycat ult that's just a reskin of another.

All i want from DE is to scrap this cutscene gameplay element. I want to play the game and not watching my frame auto play itself.

[Nazrethim]

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Sure they're could be improvements made to BS, but they are not going to scrap it completely. Especially when it actually has a unique mechanic attached to it. I'm all for diversity instead of creating yet another copycat ult that's just a reskin of another.

What about this:

Instead of being a permanent toggle marking mode, make it a 100 energy, 6-10s duration, marking mode, during which the player can mark as many enemies as it can for no additional cost. Then either waiting the timer or the player press 4 again, unleashes the storm, but clones show up to assist rather than follow, 3 clones, and Ash only performs a fraction of the cutscenes.

Say you mark 20 enemies, you only get to see 5 with the clones handling the rest.

 

Alternatively, a Stance Ultimate that adds multikill features to Finisher attacks would be consistent with Ash's theme, it wouldn't be AFK simulator, and it's actually easier to balance for Conclave.

 

Right now, BS has two critical flaws: Endless cutscene (because Ash attacks everyone individually) and stupid high cost (because the ability takes around 150 to 450 energy for 10 dudes, which is madness for a frame with base 150, and don't start with that Efficiency bullsh*t, ability should have a reasonable cost of 100 regardless of which stats you apply, thus keeping modding diversity a thing)

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

What about this:

Instead of being a permanent toggle marking mode, make it a 100 energy, 6-10s duration, marking mode, during which the player can mark as many enemies as it can for no additional cost. Then either waiting the timer or the player press 4 again, unleashes the storm, but clones show up to assist rather than follow, 3 clones, and Ash only performs a fraction of the cutscenes.

Say you mark 20 enemies, you only get to see 5 with the clones handling the rest.

 

Alternatively, a Stance Ultimate that adds multikill features to Finisher attacks would be consistent with Ash's theme, it wouldn't be AFK simulator, and it's actually easier to balance for Conclave.

 

Right now, BS has two critical flaws: Endless cutscene (because Ash attacks everyone individually) and stupid high cost (because the ability takes around 150 to 450 energy for 10 dudes, which is madness for a frame with base 150, and don't start with that Efficiency bullsh*t, ability should have a reasonable cost of 100 regardless of which stats you apply, thus keeping modding diversity a thing)

I do think that the number of cutscenes he partakes in should scale down with the more enemies you mark.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

What about this:

Instead of being a permanent toggle marking mode, make it a 100 energy, 6-10s duration, marking mode, during which the player can mark as many enemies as it can for no additional cost. Then either waiting the timer or the player press 4 again, unleashes the storm, but clones show up to assist rather than follow, 3 clones, and Ash only performs a fraction of the cutscenes.

Say you mark 20 enemies, you only get to see 5 with the clones handling the rest.

 

Alternatively, a Stance Ultimate that adds multikill features to Finisher attacks would be consistent with Ash's theme, it wouldn't be AFK simulator, and it's actually easier to balance for Conclave.

 

Right now, BS has two critical flaws: Endless cutscene (because Ash attacks everyone individually) and stupid high cost (because the ability takes around 150 to 450 energy for 10 dudes, which is madness for a frame with base 150, and don't start with that Efficiency bullsh*t, ability should have a reasonable cost of 100 regardless of which stats you apply, thus keeping modding diversity a thing)

What about changing this ability into one of those how do they say quick time event? You know when you have to press a button at the right time to make an attack.

Currently you rush into a room quickly mark a bunch of targets or one big guy then you sit back and wait for the cutscene to end.

Wouldnt it be better if when you enter a room you can activate the skill and quickly attack whatever targets you choose with the mouse with additions that pressing the proper button when it says would increase the attack power/change the style?

[True_Naeblis]

Press 4 to set BS for marking

Press 4 again to activate

Press 4 a third time to end the cinematic and go back to fighting, or just outright allow an option to toggle it on/off somewhere in the menu. It gets old having to watch it over and over and over, and it would be a lot more lively seeing clones teleport around and work rather than what we currently have.

[Nazrethim]

8 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Wouldnt it be better if when you enter a room you can activate the skill and quickly attack whatever targets you choose with the mouse with additions that pressing the proper button when it says would increase the attack power/change the style?

In Solo it would work, but with our sh*tty P2P laggy hosts it will be a nightmare. You wouldn't be able to land a single quick-time unless you are the host.

[Torrempesta]

I also thought about this.
Spawning clones should be the better option.
You won't get invulnerable, and still be able to play while clones acting like those frenzy grineers (you know, those dude who go invisible dashing everywhere) jump around killing stuff.
You could spawn up to 3 clones depending on how many seconds you keep the "4" key pressed and consuming x1, x2, x3 power/s.
Then remove the shield and armor buff from Ash P., give him more power (150 base).
A full duration and efficiency Ash with Cover Lethality and this mechanics would be far better. 
Basically an Ember with Slash damages that would grant you a dmg buff on your own Slash damages (remember his passive).

 

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

I also thought about this.
Spawning clones should be the better option.

No it isn't. It will allow players to go AFK while the clones do everything. The other plausible scenario is that the clones are completely useless.

2 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

You won't get invulnerable, and still be able to play while clones acting like those frenzy grineers (you know, those dude who go invisible dashing everywhere) jump around killing stuff.

And running into Nullifier bubbles. Summoned units don't work for the killin department unless they are obscenely overpowered and invulnerable.

2 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

Then remove the shield and armor buff from Ash P., give him more power (150 base).

Ash Prime stats are good for what he is: a Warrior Ninja. He is NOT the stealthy squishy ninja type. He's more Ryu Hayabusa than The Marked Ninja (though it could use some of the tricks from the latter)

2 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

A full duration and efficiency Ash with Cover Lethality and this mechanics would be far better. 

 Write off Efficiency. Frame should NOT require more than at best Streamline to work, best case scenario he should be able to work with Default Efficiency. Balancing around that sh*tty stat is the reason we are stuck with a Failstorm that drains more energy than the frame has capacity for, forcing 2 slots to max efficiency if you want to use the "ultimate" (that is way way WAY less effective than using his 2+a goodish melee weapon)

2 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

Basically an Ember with Slash damages that would grant you a dmg buff on your own Slash damages (remember his passive).
 

Yeah, World on Blade Storm, DE's first idea, which was pointed out was the dumbest idea ever. So they went with the Marking Mode, the second dumbest idea ever.

 

To properly fix Ash without losing his theme, he must get a new Ultimate salvaging whatever it can be from current Failstorm, that achieves the following:

+Interactivity (no obligatory cutscene or AFK potential, as well as discouraging the use of macros),

+Build Diversity (must work with whatever power stats you have, even default, so NO mandatory stats like Efficiency, which is a broken stat in it's current state, it's like balancing a frame around Naramon's Shadowstep),

+Powerful but not Overpowered (Must regain old BS destructive potential without falling into press-4-to-win),

+Learning curve (must be simple to use, but allow room for a player's skill to grow),

+Synergy (must work better with his other abilities, but not flat out require them to work),

+Conclave Balanced (must be easy to rebalance for Conclave without altering it's core mechanics)

[Fallen_Echo]

38 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

No it isn't. It will allow players to go AFK while the clones do everything. The other plausible scenario is that the clones are completely useless.

Because tagging a whole room and then going afk till you finish is better? 

Did you ever seen an Atlas going afk after he spawned his rumblers?

[(XBOX)lotus503]

On 8/4/2017 at 4:27 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

DE has tried those ideas and it wasn't true to the design of the frame. Bladestorm IS Ash. If you don't like it, you probably just need to play a different frame. 

Ash is not a stance frame or a summon frame. He's an assassin that picks his targets and kills directly. His skill set is not made for killing tons of trash mobs faster than everyone else. He goes after high priority targets to take them out. In high level play his "slow" ult becomes one of the fastest ways to dispatch the toughest enemies. That's his purpose, not killing fodder. He uses weapons for that. 

Sure they're could be improvements made to BS, but they are not going to scrap it completely. Especially when it actually has a unique mechanic attached to it. I'm all for diversity instead of creating yet another copycat ult that's just a reskin of another.

I play ash and never use bladestorm, augments help but his 4 is trash

[(XBOX)lotus503]

at this point I say screw the entire bladestorm idea, current form its worthless, previous form was autopilot.

 

make it do something useful like boost slash damage of the whole team for  a period of time or toggle, compliment his passive with more power?

[Nazrethim]

9 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Because tagging a whole room and then going afk till you finish is better? 

Did you ever seen an Atlas going afk after he spawned his rumblers?

I didn't say current one is better. There's a reason I call it "Failstorm".

Atlas doesn't go AFK because Rumblers don't actually kill for you. They are there mostly as a distraction, with damage being more of a ceremonial thing.

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)lotus503 said:

at this point I say screw the entire bladestorm idea, current form its worthless, previous form was autopilot.

That's why I keep insisting on a Stance Ultimate aproach: Give that Multikill Finisher attacks, make it either require it's combos (to avoid slide macros or E-spam) or Teleport (Smoke Screen could also be given Finisher opening to the nigh useless stagger). That way it regains old BS destructive power, avoids being AFK simulator, has synergy with his abilities and DE could keep the animations for the Stance's Finisher attacks. It just sort of solves everything, and since Ash is a Warrior Ninja, it fits with his theme.

Of course, many want AFK abilities like killer summons or world on bladestorm because the idea of "actually having to play the game" is "boring". Or because all they know are EB's mindless spam, which as I stated above can be avoided by making E-spam and Slide Spam simply not worth using by comparison to using proper combos or his other abilities.

[Cimbro94]

The real problem is that sometimes DE just want to fix/nerf things with little to no effort involved...

[sunnyboy5]

TBH i use bladestorm mainly for 2 things

1. im lazy and just wanna chill through a missions

2. as an oh sh*t button to kill some stuff and allow my shields to regen? (fast deflection helps)

maybe so that its a birds eye view or somethings so its smoother to actually watch?

[Nazrethim]

10 hours ago, Cimbro94 said:

The real problem is that sometimes DE just want to fix/nerf things with little to no effort involved...

Well, I haven't cracked open the EEngine yet, but mechanically reworking him isn't that hard if you know what you are doing, DE could fix Ash in a single stab if they get the design right, which they didn't initially because they had no idea what to do with Ash, the revisit just nerfed Ash because DE was clueless how to solve the frame's problems and didn't want to try too hard to fix them.

Just for perspective, their first idea was "World on Blade Storm"..which is the dumbest idea ever, but they luckily decided to listen to feedback and scrapped that, and then went for the Second dumbest idea ever: the marking mode, which was pointed out pretty much INSTANTLY it was going to be terrible, but by that point they just wanted to nerf the frame already and forget it even exists.

9 hours ago, sunnyboy5 said:

TBH i use bladestorm mainly for 2 things

1. im lazy and just wanna chill through a missions

2. as an oh sh*t button to kill some stuff and allow my shields to regen? (fast deflection helps)

maybe so that its a birds eye view or somethings so its smoother to actually watch?

The problems with it are exactly the stupid lenght of AFK time, it's absurd energy cost, and it's killin potential being on par to just using Smoke Screen and a good melee weapon, therefore not worth using it in general aside from taking an AFK break (which drains f*cktons of energy unless you go with 2 slots set on max efficiency, effectively making build diversity null)