Self reviving isn't good

[KIREEK]

I don't often post feedback but this latest change to the reviving mechanics made me scratch my head as to what part of the gameplay is DE trying to improve.

1. On regular missions, 4 to 6 revives is considered pretty much as an infinite supply of revives, you will hardly ever use 1, let alone 4, on harder missions it's true that this happens but those are rather rare, atleast from my own perspective (I'm a player with over 30k completed missions btw)
2. There was always a skill related mechanic (prioritazation of objectives) when someone died, if you're defending a pod and someone dies, you need often to try and clear the enemies 1st before reviving, unless ofcourse you know you can tank the damage while reviving, if you didn't place proper care and effort, you could die while reviving, it's no suprise that a probability of a mission fail excalates quickly with each player death, because downed players can atract more downed players, so gameplay wise you are rewarded for dying less and for reviving in a more effective way.
3. It does promote the wrong gameplay, you see reviving someone near a pod and away from it is different, some players know the primary objective in a defense mission of some kind (excavation, mobile defense, rescue, ice sabotage, assault may contain elements of this aswell), so they know when they have a downed player they need to pick what to do next, if the player is away from the pod, it is likely that a good player will prioritize the pod and not the player, this is good for the entire team, a downed player moaning is better than a lost mission. This means as it was before there was an action and consequence, meaning that if you died away from the pod, it was unlikely that you would be revived, so either you learned from the mistake or you could potentially be one of those high mastery players who still behave like that, getting themselves killed away from the objective and having something like 80% mission completion rate (i mean no insults to the players that have that %, but there is a reason why it's not 85%, 90%, 95%, player behavior translates directly to the % on the long term). As it is now the player can just go, die and self revive without even using certain mods (like sacrifice), this promotes the behavior of not learning the objectives as it gives little consequences to it.
4. Makes sacrifice mod rather obsolete, i mean spending a revive is pointless when you have 4 per mission or even 6, it's like nothing happened, you got down and you got up really quickly.
5. It's pointless to revive someone, either players don't revive at all (no effort in doing so when the opportunity is there) or when you try and go to extreme amounts of skill to try and defend and revive someone, you realize that the person is already self reviving and all your running was pointless, so you return back to defending the objective, you see what i mean here? You basically walk back and forth for no reason. These litle things sometimes defines players, they know they can defend and go out of their way to help a teammate, even if the teammate isn't of much use they still try and bring him back, not the case anymore.
6. EDIT: Seems one of the reasons was because it allowed oberon players and teammates to make other teammates downed for a really long time, not only that requires many, many factors to happen (planetary alignment is more likely i believe) (requires player being dead, away from team, unsuportive players, an oberon, a specific oberon build, a oberon that doesn't interupt the ability, oberon must be nearby,.....) but it is also easy to solve with a self revive after 15 seconds, so you remain downed for 15 seconds and if you have a 60 second timer then after 15 seconds you can self revive or remain downed. Meaning you choose to take benefit of the extra time or you revive. By making a self revive nearly instant, downed state and reviving is trivialized and taken less seriously than what it should be.

In short i believe DE isn't teaching the players to be better and is instead dumbing down the game for the players that are essentially still learning mission objectives or the consequences of certain types of gameplay and/or modding.

I sugest bringing the old system back so that the community as a whole can improve gameplay wise, as it is now, reviving is a waste of time, a waste of effort and dying is being rewarded.

Edited September 22, 2017 by KIREEK

[SeaUrchins]

It's good, now the scrubs can revive themselves instead of crying for a res.

[ashrah]

its good cz i dont like to run 5 rooms from objective to rev rambo players who come with unranked gear

[Nez-Kal]

I've already posted this on another "Troll-Logic" post, but I believe the Self Revive was put in due to the fact that (as an Oberon Main) Duration Build Renewel on Oberon can make Bleed Out last for around a minute, maybe less, maybe more, depending on the Builds. I've seen people go down halfway across the map on the effects of my Renewel, and I've seen people COMPLETELY ignore these downed individuals because of fire fights and objectives, literally leaving them there for over half a minute before finally getting to them, or just leaving them too die.

That's around half a minute, to a full minute of just sitting there, maybe taking a few downed shots at some nearby enemies, if there are any, as you're literally waiting to die because of too busy or too inconsiderate teammates, all thanks to your team Oberon Helping you out.

[KIREEK]

25 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

I've already posted this on another "Troll-Logic" post, but I believe the Self Revive was put in due to the fact that (as an Oberon Main) Duration Build Renewel on Oberon can make Bleed Out last for around a minute, maybe less, maybe more, depending on the Builds. I've seen people go down halfway across the map on the effects of my Renewel, and I've seen people COMPLETELY ignore these downed individuals because of fire fights and objectives, literally leaving them there for over half a minute before finally getting to them, or just leaving them too die.

That's around half a minute, to a full minute of just sitting there, maybe taking a few downed shots at some nearby enemies, if there are any, as you're literally waiting to die because of too busy or too inconsiderate teammates, all thanks to your team Oberon Helping you out.

But in that case they are killing an ant (a very rare occurance) with a cannon ball, that's not how you do things, the way you are saying things it seems like just because of players who can't revive or won't revive (there may be actual reasons for it), combined with an oberon with such a build and combined with a player away from the objective that dies (because being alive doesn't harm) then they decided to give an autorevive system?

That's insane, it can't be the actual reason.

Even if that's the case, it won't likely happen if the player on the ground is near by, players often have the incentive to revive as long it's not on the other side of the map, so there is an action-consequence that improves everyone on the team.

Let's be honest, it is very likely that the user is near by, that there are helpfull teammates when it comes to reviving, that the oberon will revive, that the oberon has a different build, that the oberon will disable the ability momentarilly, that the user far away is alive or survives,....

It takes a combination of like 5 factors for it to be a problem and even so being downed can be used to kill enemies, you can even do more damage with a specific mod, you can damage and not get downed, how is that a problem, there is even a range limit on oberon ability, so even when leaving the user dead and heading to extraction will likely cut off the time at some point.

You can't even be recognized as afk while downed for so long.

30 minutes ago, ashrah said:

its good cz i dont like to run 5 rooms from objective to rev rambo players who come with unranked gear

But i'm not saying that you should at all costs revive said player, if you don't revive, the player learns what happens when doing certain things. How self reviving improves that?

Remember, they can already revive themselves after 15 seconds, but by cutting down the time, they act in an even more reckless way

Edited August 8, 2017 by KIREEK

[Nez-Kal]

Just posted this on Troll Logic's, but I'll post it here as well:

But all your complaining and arguments Against the new Self Revive system can actually be used, quite literally, for the Team Revive system.

"Why do we have Team Revive? If you make a mistake you should go down for it. End of story. With Team Revive it pretty much removes next to all risk of playing in an irresponsible manner because, oh, my Team will just pick me up. Want to bring a Warframe with no Defense or Vitality mods so that your Casts can hit harder and longer? Go right ahead. Team will just pick you up when you down for the 7th time. Honestly, this system is garbage, and teaches players that playing on Public or in a Team means that their actions and mistakes pretty much no longer have any consequences."

See how that same argument can be used there? It's the exact same thing. Why is it different for team play and Solo play, huh? You should die for your mistakes no matter what way you play, and suffer/fail for them, right?


(No, I do not actually want Team Revive taken out, I'm just making a point here about the "Almost No Consequences" system of the new Self Revive, and the "Almost No Consequences" system of the Team Revive.)

[ashrah]

17 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

But in that case they are killing an ant (a very rare occurance) with a cannon ball, that's not how you do things, the way you are saying things it seems like just because of players who can't revive or won't revive (there may be actual reasons for it), combined with an oberon with such a build and combined with a player away from the objective that dies (because being alive doesn't harm) then they decided to give an autorevive system?

That's insane, it can't be the actual reason.

Even if that's the case, it won't likely happen if the player on the ground is near by, players often have the incentive to revive as long it's not on the other side of the map, so there is an action-consequence that improves everyone on the team.

Let's be honest, it is very likely that the user is near by, that there are helpfull teammates when it comes to reviving, that the oberon will revive, that the oberon has a different build, that the oberon will disable the ability momentarilly, that the user far away is alive or survives,....

It takes a combination of like 5 factors for it to be a problem and even so being downed can be used to kill enemies, you can even do more damage with a specific mod, you can damage and not get downed, how is that a problem, there is even a range limit on oberon ability, so even when leaving the user dead and heading to extraction will likely cut off the time at some point.

You can't even be recognized as afk while downed for so long.

But i'm not saying that you should at all costs revive said player, if you don't revive, the player learns what happens when doing certain things. How self reviving improves that?

Remember, they can already revive themselves after 15 seconds, but by cutting down the time, they act in an even more reckless way

on endless missions  if they  go donkey mode they die no rewards xp nothing easy fix

[Sajochi]

The real question is, why is a QoL change being dissed so hard? If your team leaves you to die, you still use a revive anyways. If you don't like the feature, then don't use it. It's an option, not a forced feature. 

Seriously, the things people will hate these days. 

[mael9740]

1 hour ago, KIREEK said:

I sugest bringing the old system back

Which old system? The one where revives were not per mission, and were replenished daily (still 4 revives), or you could pay plat for them?

[KIREEK]

1 minute ago, mael9740 said:

Which old system? The one where revives were not per mission, and were replenished daily (still 4 revives), or you could pay plat for them?

No, the system where the revive was only available after you actually died 15 seconds later

[mael9740]

Just now, KIREEK said:

No, the system where the revive was only available after you actually died 15 seconds later

This is only a QoL change. Look at the Kuva Rescue sortie we got.

It's easy to die, but you have to wait 15 seconds before respawning, and the execution timer can run out while doing that.

It's only one example, there are so many other. Being downed far away, etc...

[kleerr2]

1 hour ago, KIREEK said:

In short i believe DE isn't teaching the players to be better and is instead dumbing down the game for the players that are essentially still learning mission objectives or the consequences of certain types of gameplay and/or modding.

YES! Thank you! Someone gets it! We should instead have it so: When you die, you lose your frame and cannot even build that frame, ever again! That should teach them newbies to gameplay and modd!

1 hour ago, KIREEK said:

I sugest bringing the old system back so that the community as a whole can improve gameplay wise, as it is now, reviving is a waste of time, a waste of effort and dying is being rewarded.

New system, or not... not reviving someone = someone's wasted revive. Reviving is not a ''waste of time/ effort'', it is actually a saved revive of the few you have. That revive is just so much effort tho. -_-

Dying is being rewarded you say... Hmm, i guess you are right, you win 1 used revive, hooray!

Edited August 8, 2017 by kleerr2

[MagPrime]

The old revive system banked on the idea of team work.  Someone goes down, and while they're being revived, the other two teammates would cover the reviver/revivee.

Outside of my own close knit group of friends, this has never worked.  One person goes down and one or all remaining players make the decision to not revive you because it'll jeopardize the mission.  Or at least claim to when they're just really tired of reviving, or feel losing a revive will "teach you a lesson."  At no point do they consider working as a team to bring the downed player back. 

Having a revive system based around teamwork only works if that's happening in the first place. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by MagPrime

[KIREEK]

1 minute ago, MagPrime said:

The old revive system banked on the idea of team work.  Someone goes down, and while they're being revived, the other two teammates would cover the reviver/revivee.

Outside of my own close knit group of friends, this has never worked.  One person goes down and one or all remaining players make the decision to not revive you because it'll jeopardize the mission.   At no point do they consider working as a team to bring the downed player back. 

Having a revive system based around teamwork only works if that's happening in the first place. 

And why would it jeopardize the mission?

If you are defending something, then means you're not defending or the clutter is so high with enemies that your teammates can't dispatch them in 15 seconds

On a survival, you can't kill and revive at the same time with high efficiency, to jeopardize the mission it means they spend more time reviving you than actually killing enemies

I'm not sure what you actually mean, if they aren't reviving you, it is likely you did something before that, don't tell me you're dying right next to the terminal and all 3 players decide not to revive you, that's incredibly rare.

[MagPrime]

34 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

And why would it jeopardize the mission?

If you are defending something, then means you're not defending or the clutter is so high with enemies that your teammates can't dispatch them in 15 seconds

On a survival, you can't kill and revive at the same time with high efficiency, to jeopardize the mission it means they spend more time reviving you than actually killing enemies

I'm not sure what you actually mean, if they aren't reviving you, it is likely you did something before that, don't tell me you're dying right next to the terminal and all 3 players decide not to revive you, that's incredibly rare.

This is gonna sound like bragging, but I personally don't go down that often.  My examples are based on what I've seen during other missions where PUG's feel they need to teach someone a lesson about their "bad" play style or simply view it as an act of Darwinism.

But yes, there have been times where someone went down next to a terminal or pod and people didn't revive them.  Either due to what I mentioned above, or they don't care or didn't see.  (My brother is guilty of this actually.  People drop and he doesn't see it, so doesn't revive them.)

My point is that you can't tout the old system as promoting team play when it didn't. 

EDIT: Sorry for not answering your initial question.

Reviving someone can jeopardize the mission in ones like Rescues or Spy's.  There have been several times where someone goes down after tripping the timer, and instead of completing the mission, someone revives the player and causes the mission to fail.  Many times, the person who went down and the person who revived, would get chewed out by other teammates, saying that finishing the mission is more important that reviving someone.  Especially if they had at least 1 revive.

So having a self revive option negates that entire scenario; people that are trying to be "good" teammates and revive someone who's downed, aren't causing mission failures anymore.

Edited August 8, 2017 by MagPrime

[(PSN)Onder6099]

Will be better to wait for someone who is somewhere on 3km^2 area and loose Objective?

[Rakiss]

Solo inaros can be a pain to play without quick revives.
People dying in irritating places in rescue sorties is also a thing (dying while hacking so your corpse blocks the console from some angles etc.)
Also, being someone who relies on sentinels for survivability with a number of frames (guardian, medi-ray, shield charger, vacuum), having teammates insist on reviving you when you really just want to die so you can stop going down every 2 seconds can be frustrating. There have been multiple occasions when calls of "plz no res" have been ignored.

Maybe quick-reviving should have an additional cost to balance the strategic value of it.
Ideas that come to mind are:

• Revive with no energy
  Or
• Spend 2 revives or 1 revive if a teammate is currently resurrecting you.

[torint_man]

I feel that these "self-revive is bad" threads will always go ultimately nowhere. The OP thinks it's bad for whatever reason, creates a narrative to support their viewpoint, others disagree, and the discussion ultimately goes nowhere because it is fundamentally opinion based. But whatever, I'll discuss.

15 hours ago, KIREEK said:

As it is now the player can just go, die and self reivive without even using certain mods (like sacrifice), this promotes the behavior of not learning the objectives as it gives little consequences to it.

I could not disagree more. There is a consequence, it's called losing a limited resource. Self-revives change nothing. Absolutely nothing. Being down for 20 seconds isn't a "lesson", it is a hindrance. If some idiot somehow goes down 4 times, then their lesson is learned. Same thing then, same thing now. In fact, they will learn their lesson FASTER because they'll burn through their revives even quicker.

15 hours ago, KIREEK said:

Makes sacrifice mod rather obsolete, i mean spending a revive is pointless when you have 4 per mission or even 6, it's like nothing happened, you got down and you got up really quickly.

And you spent a limited resource in the process. If someone does not feel like spending their limited resource every time they go down, then sacrifice works for them.

15 hours ago, KIREEK said:

It's pointless to revive someone, either players don't revive at all (no effort in doing so when the opportunity is there) or when you try and go to extreme amounts of skill to try and defend and revive someone, you realize that the person is already self reviving and all your running was pointless, so you return back to defending the objective, you see what i mean here? You basicly walk back and forth for no reason. These litle things sometimes defines players, they know they can defend and go out of their way to help a teammate, even if the teammate isn't of much use they still try and bring him back, not the case anymore.

That's their problem, not the game's. Also, it's a communication problem. If they want to spend their limited resource, oh well, let them. They will learn their lesson when they go down, have no revives left, and you can't revive them. Until then, oh well.

Self-revive is great because it gives the player more options. Do I spend my limited resource now, or do I bank on not having to spend it, or is it better to spend it now even if I ultimately won't have to spend it? If people haphazardly use their limited resource, let them, until they get better at the game. Players find it utterly infuriating to be sitting in front of a rescue jail cell in a sortie and there being nothing they can do (There is the argument to be made that the 20 second down time is an appropriate consequence, but I disagree, as I thinks it's a punishing and unfair mechanic in that context). Also, solo Inaros appreciates this immensely, as being stuck for 20 seconds in levels above 40 sucks (I'm assuming you can self-revive as solo inaros, right?). 

[Mudfam]

17 hours ago, mael9740 said:

This is only a QoL change. Look at the Kuva Rescue sortie we got.

It's easy to die, but you have to wait 15 seconds before respawning, and the execution timer can run out while doing that.

It's only one example, there are so many other. Being downed far away, etc...

That's very obviously not a QoL change, you are literally saying that it allows you to successfully complete the mission even though you were downed. It's bypassing one of the very few things that could actually present some sort of challenge and a failure condition.

If you fail a mission that doesn't mean the game needs adjustment, it means you failed to complete a challenge and you need to do better. Isn't that the whole point of playing games in the first place, overcoming some sort of challenge? What's the point of a game if you can't lose?

It's incredibly rare that you fail a mission in Warframe, and the rare few times it happens are the only times I actually have any fun at all. Breezing through everything without any consequences or even having to pay any attention to the objective or your team is incredibly boring.

[KIREEK]

18 hours ago, mael9740 said:

This is only a QoL change. Look at the Kuva Rescue sortie we got.

It's easy to die, but you have to wait 15 seconds before respawning, and the execution timer can run out while doing that.

It's only one example, there are so many other. Being downed far away, etc...

In other words, self reviving nearly instantly promotes reckless behavior, atleast 4 times.

Things should be done properly and with proper care and effort, getting downed means something wasn't done correctly, reviving youself and gaining a few seconds on invulnerability defeats the mechanical difficulty that was imposed in the 1st place.

 

7 hours ago, Rakiss said:

Solo inaros can be a pain to play without quick revives.
People dying in irritating places in rescue sorties is also a thing (dying while hacking so your corpse blocks the console from some angles etc.)

That doesn't sound right, there are usually 1 to 3 or so enemies inside, that's not a number that is so big to the point that is a problem, it is a problem if you're hacking the front door, but that's a player choice, if you do less effort in knowing rescue, you will likely hack the front door, wasting time and letting enemies in ruin the hacking for those inside.

It's an action consequence thing and effort is rewarded

Edited August 9, 2017 by KIREEK

[Alcoholism]

I have to agree with OP - I really don't like how they changed this game mechanic.

Been playing the game for a long time, on and off - not played as much recently because I'm waiting for newer content to get dropped but played a few missions lately and really disliked it. I enjoyed the coop gameplay and teamwork elements, that's what really pulled me into this game in the first place. Whenever I went down, I would be shooting at enemies while I'm incapped trying to get revived by others.

The whole "get good" thing though, yeah maybe some people will up their gaming skills now (less lazy/leeching players) because they realise players aren't coming to their aid anymore - but to me, it's not really about that. It's what has been lost - the spirit of teamwork which I enjoyed. I played a few games and instead of bringing my OP gear to carry everyone, I just brought mediocre gear for fun. I went down every now and then and I didn't revive myself, I just waited to get revived like I used to - no one really came to my aid. I did a few games like this and maybe one or two players actually came to revive me but that was mostly because they were within range to do so. I never really saw any players travelling 20+ metres to revive me, which used to happen all the time. In fact sometimes it was confusing to know whether to run back to revive someone or not, because I would go to do it only to find they decided to revive themselves after a few seconds anyway.

I'm sure a lot of people miss the feeling of coming to another player's aid or getting aided by a squad member. It just doesn't feel the same anymore... I get this is really just my opinion and I'm not speaking for everyone in the game. I just simply dislike them making this change and I can only hope they take on posts like these as feedback so they can improve the system further.

[Nirrel]

4 hours ago, torint_man said:

 

Self-revives change nothing. Absolutely nothing. Being down for 20 seconds isn't a "lesson", it is a hindrance. If some idiot somehow goes down 4 times, then their lesson is learned. Same thing then, same thing now. In fact, they will learn their lesson FASTER because they'll burn through their revives even quicker.

 

You are wrong : It changes everything. Until now you could potentially fail the mission because you got killed, so you had to be more careful and if you failed than you learned something. Consider just defence, mobile defence, rescue, spy missions. Getting killed in those can lead to failure. So quick revive as it is take away challange and promotes reckless behavior and demote proper teamplay, where getting up an ally and as quicly as possible did rapresented a challange and had significance.

On the other hand I do not see all this negative consequence to use up a couple of revives out of 4. I don't see any at all in fact.  I can't even remember the last time that I saw somebody use up all their revives not even total noobs, if not first timers in JV without an injectore.

Qiuck revives as they are implemented right now are very bad for the gameplay. Take away teamplay, challage and using it have no real consequences for the player.

[mael9740]

1 hour ago, Mudfam said:

That's very obviously not a QoL change, you are literally saying that it allows you to successfully complete the mission even though you were downed. It's bypassing one of the very few things that could actually present some sort of challenge and a failure condition.

If you fail a mission that doesn't mean the game needs adjustment, it means you failed to complete a challenge and you need to do better. Isn't that the whole point of playing games in the first place, overcoming some sort of challenge? What's the point of a game if you can't lose?

It's incredibly rare that you fail a mission in Warframe, and the rare few times it happens are the only times I actually have any fun at all. Breezing through everything without any consequences or even having to pay any attention to the objective or your team is incredibly boring.

Rest of arguments are given by the person who replied 3 hours before you. You are just taking the easy comment to approve you own oppinion there.

It's just skipping 20 useless seconds.

 

15 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

In other words, self reviving nearly instantly promotes reckless behavior, atleast 4 times.

Things should be done properly and with proper care and effort, getting downed means something wasn't done correctly, reviving youself and gaining a few seconds on invulnerability defeats the mechanical difficulty that was imposed in the 1st place.

No it doesn't, or at least the same than with the "old" system.

Then just remove the revive system then?

[St4killer]

My opinion on the other hand about this topic is people should be FORCED to revive people and if they refuse then those greedy players should be punished severally for. maybe kicked from the mission or maybe have them die for not resurrecting there good sweet teammates! thats how i see it. #ForcePlayersToRevive.

[Nirrel]

23 minutes ago, mael9740 said:

Rest of arguments are given by the person who replied 3 hours before you. You are just taking the easy comment to approve you own oppinion there.

It's just skipping 20 useless seconds.

 

No it's not if your objective is going to fail in that  20 seconds because you couldn't defend it. That's not an opinion that is a fact.