Conclave is unbalanced

[.Zel]

When the players who regularly play Conclave and do well, Test the weapons in depth to get stats DE will not provide, when these players agree that "Conclave is unbalanced" then you got to assume that the game mode is not going in a good direction and regulars might die off too as a result. 

Conclave offers no great reward hence there isn't a big incentive for many to play, those who do play they do so because it's fun and challenging or at least it was. Most things that happened after U21 is a nightmare, I say "is" because as the title states Conclave "is" unbalanced. It's not because of mobility or anything, it's because of certain change "Conclave Devs" have made and judging from these changes people are really finding it tough to believe that there really actually is a team for Conclave.

Abilities are unbalanced, Certain Weapons are unbalanced, the so called "Balance" pass for snipers and bows killed whatever balance they had, Energy Regen/Energy Orbs is also let's say Not balanced as there's too much energy(750) in a single match and coupled with abilities being unbalanced, skill is out of the window. 

Currently it feels like it's "PvP" only by name but in actuality the PvE meta is in Conclave now as having the right(Broken) loadout can allow you to do well if not better than regulars who play/practice everyday to excel with a certain weapon, let it be autos/snipers/bows/explosives. LTTK weapons such as Snipers and Bows were a good way to counter ability spammers and broken weapon users, they're dead now. Autos are used now to mow down such spammers and win matches but some weapons are so broken at the moment that you cannot even do that regardless of how good your aim is, no matter how skilled you are. Because with autos you need to break movement and track the target in order to deal damage, good luck because Scourge alt landing anywhere near you means instant death.

 

Broken stuff:

^The alt landed 5m or more away, one shot on the ground, everything around it is dead. One shot, missed the shot, but broken weapon aoe = here's your Quad kill. Snipers/Bows, land a head shot, but they're nerfed to the ground so no kill for you. <--This is balancing apparently.

Another example for Scourge, this is "Balance".

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Don't have a scourge? No problem, take a frame that has a 4 which deals damage, most of them can pull off similar stunts like that Chroma^ in the gif. Why aim when you can pop an effigy in a room/press 4 and get easy kills. This is skill? No, this is just walking into a room and pressing 4 but heyyyy it works and it's not your fault it's available to you. I guess this is what "Balance" is and hey, you can do that 7 times in a single match if you get all the orbs or even if you just have a +energy build.

 

Result:

New players experienced in PvP games coming into Conclave wouldn't want to stay for long with things like this happening and i actually have met someone from CoD who is dead tired of the fact that his years of experience in shooting games is getting stomped with the press of a single button, and DE wonders why the population is low? DE wonders why people are boosting? If a PvE player who never touched Conclave tells me that "Conclave is broken", then i honestly can't argue anymore because it really is broken at the moment.

To be honest I don't even feel like reporting boosters anymore if i catch any because i can understand why one would not want to go into a public match.

Nerfing all the precision/skill based weapons and the ones that were balanced but not those which are broken, and yet some say "Conclave team play tests", i'm sorry for my words but i really have my doubts about that. If there is a Conclave Team, if they do play test then we wouldn't be seeing all these threads linked below.

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To be honest the Dev's do not even need to playtest, The community, the players dedicated to conclave are doing it and offering well constructed feedbacks. Just understanding what the players are trying to say in these threads is enough to be able to implement proper balance. These threads i have linked are not even just random posts, they all have a decent amount of upvotes or comments where players discuss the the need for those change/reverting the change implemented.

 

Conclusion:

I would not be making such a post if things were not bad, since U21 there has been more problems than solutions. One broken weapon after another with no sign of proper balance for things which were already not balanced or received undeserved nerfs. Castana's were broken, the so called "fix" just rendered them more or less useless now. 

This isn't PvP anymore, it's "Get something broken and go farm some reps" mode.

Heyy want some more examples on how broken things are?

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Edited August 10, 2017 by .Zel

[Sky_]

Current state of conclave is a mess right now, with weapons like the Scourge being effectively a small-nuke that also gives you an easy headshot tool. We really need changes, and quick, to the weapons in conclave. Snipers and bows have been made a far weaker option in comparison to everything else. Hell, a sniper is pretty much outclassed by the lex series entirely (Lex series really shouldn't have a 2x HS multiplier, should be in line with other semi auto pistols). Offhand melee is far too powerful, it shouldn't have gotten the innate channel buff + ability to knockdown on slam. It makes actually pulling out your melee obsolete.

Some weapons have been flat out rendered unusable, with castanas actually doing zero damage when detonated mid-flight (this is pretty much a mandatory thing to do to make Castanas work in a match). 

Spoiler

Really though, why do they do zero damage? This happened with 21.3.1, which was awhile ago

 

Some buffs from PvE do not translate over well, example being the Stradavar (Almost zero spread when hip firing) and Tenora (Why did Tenora get a mag buff at all? It was already one of the strongest automatic weapons in the game, should have stayed at 50!). Orvius is in the same category here, with the recent ability to throw homing, high damage cold-procing glaives at other people at any point in time, while also being able to shoot. It's just too much, it shouldn't be able to home on dual-wielding throws.

Some passives also need a look at, regarding melee. Frosts passive makes using melee of any kind against him a suicide mission in many situations. Even some ults are at risk just by being near him. Nova's passive is in a similar boat - knocking down players around her if she is knocked down. This eliminates one of the only things melee has over gunplay (that being knockdowns via slams or combos) - all due to a passive ability that requires no thought from the player. It'll also knockdown any other player too, with the Nova getting up first and having advantage. These two passives, just by themselves, completely destroy an already difficult to use playstyle, and should be changed

Edited August 10, 2017 by Sky_

[redeyedtreefrog]

conclave truly will always be trash. even disregarding gross balance issues, the win has always and will always go to the person with the most erratic movement and/or the best target-tracking ability. 

It's not how well you play. it's how FAST you play.

[Naptasha]

2 minutes ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

conclave truly will always be trash. even disregarding gross balance issues, the win has always and will always go to the person with the most erratic movement and/or the best target-tracking ability. 

It's not how well you play. it's how WELL you play.

FTFY

[Lavenza]

Just now, redeyedtreefrog said:

conclave truly will always be trash. even disregarding gross balance issues, the win has always and will always go to the person with the most erratic movement and/or the best target-tracking ability. 

 

Guy that can move fast while having good tracking will win the match? WOAH, WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT! 

[.Zel]

6 minutes ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

conclave truly will always be trash. even disregarding gross balance issues, the win has always and will always go to the person with the most erratic movement and/or the best target-tracking ability. 

It's not how well you play. it's how FAST you play.

In its current state and if it keeps heading that way, I agree with you completely, as i said, i have nothing at my disposal to try and defend the game mode i love playing. 

As for your "It's not how well you play. it's how FAST you play.", no, you'll still die and lose, your mobility can't even help you now with the gross imbalance.

[BlueberryIsWar]

So.. using a sniper/bow and camping is skill according to the OP?

And if you want to play CoD.. play CoD?

I really don't get it. Is the problem that tankier frames are one hitted despite defensive abilities?

[redeyedtreefrog]

5 minutes ago, IMainFrost said:

Guy that can move fast while having good tracking will win the match? WOAH, WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT! 

The problem being, there is absolutely no tactical depth beyond that.

Any other pvp game, there's other ways to win the match other than simply having the fastest trigger finger. You can possibly escape from your mistakes. You can play things in a front-line position and possibly tank a few hits or you can sit back and strike from farther away.

 

Enter warframe conclave: almost any automatic weapon (that is used anyway) can kill you in well under half a second. human reaction quite literally is not fast enough to recover from a mistake in under half a second. Conclave involves ONLY being the first to strike true. If you haven't fired the first shot, chances are incredibly high that you will die, provided you haven't died already. Many semi-autos can kill you almost as fast, and still more weapons can one-shot you, though arguably, those at least have some balance since headshots are required for most of those to work. 

And again, most other pvp games, you've got characters which move at regular speeds. warframe PvP is all about moving as fast as possible. The speed at which warframes move is actually the speed that projectiles fly in some games. we are literally moving faster than some other games' bullets.

Every part of this scenario screams low-depth shallow gameplay in which matches are determined entirely by reaction time. Not skill.

[Lavenza]

Just now, BlueberryIsWar said:

So.. using a sniper/bow and camping is skill according to the OP?

And if you want to play CoD.. play CoD?

I really don't get it. Is the problem that tankier frames are one hitted despite defensive abilities?

Have you ever watched a conclave video before? We don't camp, especially not snipers/bows after u21 nerf. 

Cod is not fast as warframe.

Zero effort 1 shotting is unacceptable. 

[.Zel]

3 minutes ago, BlueberryIsWar said:

So.. using a sniper/bow and camping is skill according to the OP?

And if you want to play CoD.. play CoD?

I really don't get it. Is the problem that tankier frames are one hitted despite defensive abilities?

Not even effective since snipers and bows are not even useful compared to other weapons, tanky frame or not, does not matter. The imbalance has reached such an extent that whether you're slow or fast it does not matter, you are an easy kill if someone is using one of the broken weapons mentioned/linked.

[Sky_]

10 minutes ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

You can possibly escape from your mistakes.

It's completely possible to escape from your mistakes. Get caught in a bad position? Make the right decisions with movement, an ability, or a last ditch attempt to out-play and kill your opponent.

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Here, I was smack dab in the middle of a fight, low health, and impaired. I found an escape route (Up to the catwalk, into the doors, and out) and took it the moment I could (when impair ran out). Some times this isn't possible, yes, but that can happen with anything in any game. Sometimes the cards are not in your favor, sometimes one card still is. But you have to know how to use that one card well.

10 minutes ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

You can play things in a front-line position and possibly tank a few hits or you can sit back and strike from farther away.

Again, you can do these things. Tank frames and loadouts are a thing, and can work extremely well if used by the right kind of player (Player with good aim, good tracking, for example). Sitting back and "striking from farther away" is also a thing you can do, but has a risk due to the Oro mechanic.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Sky_

[Lavenza]

3 minutes ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

tactical blablabla

First of all, warframe is not suppose to be tactical, it is not rainbow 6 siege. It is suppose to be a fast paced shooter. 

There are other ways to win a conclave match, you can steal oros, remember. 

Automatic weapons definitely can't kill you under half a second, not even superlight frames. 

[Heckzu]

29 minutes ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

conclave truly will always be trash. even disregarding gross balance issues, the win has always and will always go to the person with the most erratic movement and/or the best target-tracking ability. 

Any PvP game truly will always be trash. Even disregarding gross balance issues, the win has always and will always go to the person with the most effective movements and/or the best cognitive abilities. 

So apparently rewarding skill makes a game trash. What impeccable logic.

19 minutes ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

Any other pvp game, there's other ways to win the match other than simply having the fastest trigger finger.

In any other shooter free-for-all or team deathmatch, I don't think there are other ways to win the match besides shooting the most amount of enemies.

[AlphaPHENIX]

Ya, the damage of Warding Halo should just straight up be removed.

1 hour ago, .Zel said:

 

 

[13QZXXTTX]

LISTEN WELL. I already have my fair share of PvP contents from other games, nothing impressive, and you all MAKE your POINTS.

I have ONE thing to say: Scrap Conclaves it current entirely, to FREE up Dev attention to other Incomplete (AW, Misisons, Quest, NEW Contents, etc.)

Right now, if you did NOT know, DE has a new "Project", involving PvP. I just simply do not enjoy PvP, not from many hours of other games combines, same thing, so repetitive.

 

Conclave Shoots-to-Kills at it is is just pretty much standards, I don't think it a different specie, but that why MOST Tennos don't even want to play it. 

Basically Conclaves is a Pit of Murders with no real story or purpose than showing of your Glorious Farming Skill (lol, might as well make it about Farming, :Idea:).

PS Going to post an Conclave Idea Post :|

[Sky_]

1 minute ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

Ya, the damage of Warding Halo should just straight up be removed.

 

Yeah, warding halo itself is rather bonkers past it's damage. It completely ignores Silence (Silence disables abilities such as Iron skin, for ex.), and also shuts off Martial Magnetism completely. (That makes the two MM based ults, Hysteria and Primal Fury very weak against it. Primal Fury is near unusable against Warding halo). It also never goes away until destroyed (again, even if you cast silence, it will be there)

Should decay like Iron Skin (but maybe slower, to reflect it's higher energy cost), be weak to Silence like the rest of the abilities, not do insane damage on a glance, and not make Martial Magnetism useless.

[SevenLetterKWord]

6 minutes ago, DesFrSpace said:

LISTEN WELL. I already have my fair share of PvP contents from other games, nothing impressive, and you all MAKE your POINTS.
I have ONE thing to say: Scrap Conclaves it current entirely, to FREE up Dev attention to other Incomplete (AW, Misisons, Quest, NEW Contents, etc.)
Right now, if you did NOT know, DE has a new "Project", involving PvP. I just simply do not enjoy PvP, not from many hours of other games combines, same thing, so repetitive.

Conclave Shoots-to-Kills at it is is just pretty much standards, I don't think it a different specie, but that why MOST Tennos don't even want to play it. 
Basically Conclaves is a Pit of Murders with no real story or purpose than showing of your Glorious Farming Skill (lol, might as well make it about Farming, :Idea:).
PS Going to post an Conclave Idea Post :|

"I don't enjoy Conclave, based on my experience of games that aren't Conclave!
There's not even a story! Therefore, get rid of it.

When do I receive my #1 Best Logician NA 2017 MVP 100% Award?"

_{I've read a lot of truly terrible feedback in my time, but this one is a cake-taker.}

Edited August 10, 2017 by SevenLetterKWord

[Witchydragon]

I personally think the direction Conclave has been going is perfect for Warfarm as a whole. 
 

 

[Tcorn]

I wish DE would do something to bring more people to conclave. Back when it was first "reworked" tons of people played and it was legitimately fun. Now, there are rarely any players, it can take hours to find a Lunaro or Cephalon Capture match, and everything is unbalanced to hell. If more people played, then maybe more attention would be called to how broken Conclave truly is.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Tcorn

[Stormdragon]

3 hours ago, Tcorn said:

I wish DE would do something to bring more people to conclave. Back when it was first "reworked" tons of people played and it was legitimately fun. Now, there are rarely any players, it can take hours to find a Lunaro or Cephalon Capture match, and everything is unbalanced to hell. If more people played, then maybe more attention would be called to how broken Conclave truly is.

Tbh, there's a lot more people playing than those you'll eventually find. One of the issues comes with boosters locking themselves out of matchmaking to exploit the reputation gain system on "safe" lobbies. This could be fixed  with the implementation of the match/server browser that has been requested for a very long time now, but it seems not to be coming any time soon if at all

Edited August 10, 2017 by Stormdragon

[Murph_HKM]

On 8/9/2017 at 11:57 PM, Sky_ said:

Current state of conclave is a mess right now, with Offhand melee is far too powerful, it shouldn't have gotten the innate channel buff + ability to knockdown on slam. It makes actually pulling out your melee obsolete.

 

Some passives also need a look at, regarding melee. Frosts passive makes using melee of any kind against him a suicide mission in many situations. Even some ults are at risk just by being near him. Nova's passive is in a similar boat - knocking down players around her if she is knocked down. This eliminates one of the only things melee has over gunplay (that being knockdowns via slams or combos) - all due to a passive ability that requires no thought from the player. It'll also knockdown any other player too, with the Nova getting up first and having advantage. These two passives, just by themselves, completely destroy an already difficult to use playstyle, and should be changed

As a Sword Alone player, this sums up all my problems right here.

Atlas is another one that could be looked at as well, but in all honesty until they remove the slam from offhand melee, it's probably the only way I'll be able to consistently compete is to roll Atlas and not get countered instantly every time I engage.

 

On a more expansive note, there are several abilities that on top of being huge, almost insta-cast AoEs, ignore geometry and instagib you anyways. 

[SevenLetterKWord]

3 hours ago, Murph_HKM said:

As a Sword Alone player, this sums up all my problems right here.

Sword Alone is a PvE gimmick for role players.
You should not expect to perform at full capability if you choose to relegate yourself to only a melee weapon.
Furthermore, the present state of Sword Alone is mechanically crude and does not deserve to be fully competitive until significant development occurs.

This thread has become outdated; many of the complaints raised have been addressed, and many others were not necessarily valid to begin with.
Further discussion of specific topics (melee, passives, abilities) should occur in new threads.

---

1 minute ago, Murph_HKM said:

I agree with you that melee being ground locked and mechanically crude is an issue. But I don't know how you can defend someone who gets to do the same damage by having melee as an offhand as someone who is using it as their mainhand.

Quick melee should deal 33% less damage, to maintain the 1:1.5 ratio that existed previously between unchanneled and channeled melee.
Further discussion of this specific topic should occur in a new thread.

Edited August 21, 2017 by SevenLetterKWord

[Murph_HKM]

7 minutes ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Sword Alone is a PvE gimmick for role players.
You should not expect to perform at full capability if you choose to relegate yourself to only a melee weapon.
Furthermore, the present state of Sword Alone is mechanically crude and does not deserve to be fully competitive until significant development occurs.

This thread has become outdated; many of the complaints raised have been addressed, and many others were not necessarily valid to begin with.
Further discussion of specific topics (melee, passives, abilities) should occur in new threads.

I never said I expected to "perform at full capability", as that obviously would entail playing with at least 2 of the 3 weapons slots, if not all 3.
However, choosing to wield a melee weapon should not hamstring your actual melee ability. Which it actually does in its current state. It is far more beneficial to simply quick slam and auto attack spam than it is to use a full on combo.

I agree with you that melee being ground locked and mechanically crude is an issue. But I don't know how you can defend someone who gets to do the same damage by having melee as an offhand as someone who is using it as their mainhand.

[Nazrethim]

18 hours ago, Murph_HKM said:

I never said I expected to "perform at full capability", as that obviously would entail playing with at least 2 of the 3 weapons slots, if not all 3.
However, choosing to wield a melee weapon should not hamstring your actual melee ability. Which it actually does in its current state. It is far more beneficial to simply quick slam and auto attack spam than it is to use a full on combo.

I agree with you that melee being ground locked and mechanically crude is an issue. But I don't know how you can defend someone who gets to do the same damage by having melee as an offhand as someone who is using it as their mainhand.

Because he doesn't think "Sword Alone" should be a thing, despite a match done entirely with your primary or secondary are in fact a thing (for certain weapons at least due to the issues already pointed out in the OP).

Can't blame him really, with the recent terrible changes DE made, and the fact that, for roughly half of Conclave 2.0, melee was a gimmick that rarely paid well for the user (not even the era of Martial Magnetism made it actually viable vs parkour gunplay outside of Guiding Light)

[Murph_HKM]

4 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Because he doesn't think "Sword Alone" should be a thing, despite a match done entirely with your primary or secondary are in fact a thing (for certain weapons at least due to the issues already pointed out in the OP).

Can't blame him really, with the recent terrible changes DE made, and the fact that, for roughly half of Conclave 2.0, melee was a gimmick that rarely paid well for the user (not even the era of Martial Magnetism made it actually viable vs parkour gunplay outside of Guiding Light)

Martial magnetism was around when I last played (Fall 2015 I believe) and it was a completely cancerous mod.

They've done a good job for the most part in regards to melee; the auto tracking seems to be gone entirely, slams don't knock you down from 50 ft away, and you can't copter into people for 1k damage like when 2.0 first came out.

Aside from offhand melee having no drawbacks and combos animations locking you in place, melee seems to be in a really good spot. Addressing those two things would probably make it as good as it could ever be.