[Update 21.4.0] Hydroid Revisited Feedback

[Guest]

Now, I don't play a lot of hydroid. I find him a little annoying to use when his ult doesn't work well with guns that don't do massive AOE, and I think the whole puddle gimmick is stupid and totally opposed to the whole idea of being a badass, high speed, kung fu, space pirate ninja android. When I have played him, it's been to either spam his 4 or his 1, and I liked the mobility and twitch-response CC provided by his 2. I've never liked the whole puddle-the-terminal play style. That said, I really don't get wtf they're trying to do with this rework. Puddle has always been a joke ability by design. They've said it themselves so many times, it's embarrassing. lol look guys, you can be puddle! Yet, this entire rework seems centered around using the puddle for everything and a lot of things just don't seem to add up. This may sound like a bit of a rant, but these are serious questions, for the most part...

• Why add armor to hydroid at all if we're clearly going for a hide-in-the-puddle mindset? Nothing in his kit is designed around high EHP, so what's the point?

• Why is increasing base energy pool considered a suitable fix for bad energy economy? Energy orbs still drop at the same rate, and siphon and zenurik still function at the same rate. If you can't sustain channeling and chaining things together with a small energy pool, a big energy pool won't help. You'll just spend the same amount of time looking at an empty energy bar.

• How is hiding in a puddle not the most boring playstyle imaginable?

• Why is barrage still so horribly random, inconsistent, and prone to hitting environmental objects nowhere near where you aim it?

• Why isn't corroding barrage baseline?

• Why do enemies trapped in undertow not get dragged with you when you use tidal surge?

• Why do enemies affected by tidal surge not go straight into undertow if you activate it while surging?

• Why does using tidal surge while in undertow also trigger the energy-per-meter-moved cost of undertow? You're already channeling and barred from any energy regen effects, and you're handicapping the range of the surge, so why the double energy cost for the combo?

• Why is tidal surge range scaling so wonky? I can have 190 range with negative duration and I'll move 3 feet when using tidal surge. Conversely, I can tank range and stack duration and suddenly I'm flying across the map, out of control. Didn't we decide this was bad design when we reworked Rhino?

• I understand why you'd shrink swam range given that you can now aim it where you want it. But, why nerf puddle range so hard if you can now manually pull people in at what is just about the old range? While it's thematically appropriate and kinda cool, it seems like you're just trying to make sitting in a puddle more exciting. Still sitting in a puddle though.

• Why is undertow movement speed so very very slow, and only seems to scale with sprint speed mods? Even then, it only improves ever so slightly. I get that you can tidal surge around, but again, that's double dipping in your energy pool and it's not controlling enemies in any logical way.  Why not allow movement speed to scale with range or set it to be fixed at a normal frames base walk speed?  In addition, you can "sprint" while in undertow, as well as perform animations and even jump straight out of it.  You can't bullet jump out of it, and you can't slide while in it.  Bottom line, why is movement in puddle so painful without relying on tidal surge?

• Everyone wanted to be able to loot in undertow... instead you deactivated sentinel AI entirely so that we don't get a ball of loot in our faces... You also made companions disappear while in undertow. Their AI stops, but they can still get hurt by AOE such as arson eximus blast waves and gas clouds. Meanwhile, you can vacuum and loot while in tidal surge, but not if you cast it from undertow... WTF is the plan here?

• What the hell is the point of the giant sea slug that pops up in tentacle swarm?  Tentacle swarm was pulled right out of Abyss, so why add this little monster head?  Did you seriously spend man-hours producing that for absolutely no reason whatsoever? He could at least tear &#! around the level, eating people and being terrifying... He looks like he's just sneakin a peak from the storm drain... Ya like popsicles? I got a whole freezer full of popsicles in my basement. You should come on down here and try some! mmmmmhmmmm....

• Why is tentacle swarm sending enemies into orbit instead of just grabbing them? They literally hit the skybox in simulacrum. This has always been a problem with swarm, and it's the same reason everyone hated zephyr's tornadoes. It seems more pronounced now than before, but I could be wrong.

• Why is casting tentacle swarm while in undertow limited to producing tentacles only on the puddle when the tentacles can't hurt enemies who are trapped in the puddle? Enemies held by tentacle swarm will get sucked into undertow if they touch it. What's the point of charging swarm from undertow if swarm will do no damage, and still have the same range?

• Why are the cast times so freakin terrible, and why does natural talent have so little effect on charge times?

• I still haven't noticed any real point to charging up abilities before using them. The abilities that charge do crap damage to begin with, and serve only to apply some effect like corrosive procs or send-you-to-the-fuckin-moon procs. Why waste the time charging them at all when they're basically the same uncharged, for half the cost?  Barrage takes way more then 2x as long to cast for just 2x duration, while swarm takes an eternity for more range and more tentacles - changes nothing if charge-cast from puddle.

[Obolex]

To start with hydroids undertow was buffed however his speciality was nerfed as he was always and will probably always be a farming frame the changes were unnecessary and actually made him less efficient at what he does best,farming,  I'm not saying that he is not useable for farming and I do appreciate the buffs the his other abilities but the fact still remains that he isn't useful for much more that pilfering swarm, thus the range reduction of his 4th ability was in my opinion a nerf. 

To further prove my point that his buffs to his other abilities are  pointless I would like you to ask yourself have you ever seen a hydroid that is not using pilfering swarm?

The problem with  hydroid it that his abilities are kinda bad in their implementation apart form tentacle swarm . I thing I would be nice to see hydroid able to submerge enemy's and conquer them in the ocean depths , how ever he would need a complete overhaul of his abilities.  To make him more effective for a variety of gameplay and not just farming.

[Mawweus]

So it seems that whenever I use undertow to pull enemies down with hydroid, the enemies that got pulled under are shooting me... while in the water... And I can't do anything about it... I'm assuming this is a bug from one of the recent updates? Never had this issue before.

[Lancars]

EDIT: Went over to bug report. After some testing somethings broken.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Lancars

[hellscythe00]

Tentacle Swarm feels link a nerf for me. I use it for farming with Pilfering Swarm. My only issue is that the charge time for Tentacle Swarm takes too long to charge it to the max. Even if I had added Natural Talent, it will be the same as adding Narrow Minded for the short range. Also the Tentacle Swarm had a bad AI, it targets not the just enemy but players also. Don't trust me. try using it and stand next to a tentacle. Tentacle Swarm targets ally and enemy entity which is dumb. If a player and an enemy stand at the same distance of a tentacle and it targets the player. the tentacle won't switch target to the enemy. I use the long range because the initial damage that targets the enemy from any distance without any problem. It summons and hit the target, but when it already out it like a blind guy looking for his glasses.

I would like either switch how rather short to long range, to long to short. Or make the charge time much faster.

[InDueTime-EN-]

Eh? What build are you using? I have had no issues with it so far. 

[millionsofcats]

I think i found a bug unless it's intended, it seems that when ancient healers are in the puddle with other enemies, they take 0 dmg while still applying dmg reduction to enemies, however, when they are alone, they take dmg as intended and die after a bit from the puddle.

[Lancars]

I posted in bug report.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Lancars

[InDueTime-EN-]

3 hours ago, Netzwerkfehler said:

1st: Hydroid sends out waves of water in a pizza shape. 

 

are we talking about a whole pizza? a slice maybe?

 

I feel like you just made a new warfarme here. Try and put this on the Fan concept. 

Also

3 hours ago, Netzwerkfehler said:

4th: Literally Tempest Barrage (Current 1st) as a toggle ability. Pretty much like World on Fire

1

Really? a skill that is the same as another skill in the same slot? 

As much as Slash and Dash, Rhino Charge, and Tidal Surge have the same function of moving you forward very quickly, they have different mechanics.

 

I like the other ideas though. You can really round this up as a new warframe if you polish it a bit.

[(XBOX)Slimm qp ReapeR]

So here are my suggestions after playing around with hydroid extensively and seeing the new buffs as of today. They are mainly suggestions for a few buffs, synergies, and audio/visual changes with the abilities he has currently. Only ability I seek to change completely is his passive ability. Made it as short and sweet as possible.

 

New passive

My suggestion is simply that when performing a bullet jump/jump/barrel roll out of his undertow ability, the puddle (passive puddle) will remain for a capped duration of 10 or 12 seconds unaffected by duration mods. (much like how limbo leaves a rift pocket for 4 seconds when passively entering his rift) 

 

•Only jumping/barrel rolling out of his undertow will trigger this passive.

 

•Would only be able to have two simultaneously active "passive puddles" at a time. Will not be able to trigger another one until one of the puddles' duration has expired.

 

Tidal Surge

•Would like for tidal surge to have a more chaotic and intimidating audio and visual.

 

Undertow 

•From a personal standpoint I feel that this ability shouldn't be JUST about enemies drowning but ALSO about the kraken feeding on the enemies down there and getting stronger so visually I think it would be cool to see some enemies being spit out of undertow upon death. Would also like to see some of those little alien fish jumping around at the surface, increasing as more enemies die from the ability.

 

•A buff to movement speed of undertow by giving it the same speed as wukong's cloud walker if not a tad bit faster. Would increase fluidity in undertow movement without having to spam tidal surge all the time which it a tad clunky currently. Would still consume energy at a slight faster rate when moving in this. Think about the upcoming POE update!! This needs to happen in my opinion.

 

•Would like for Impact damage dealt to enemies in undertow to be stored up for use as extra damage on for tentacle swarm ability. The extra damage would be evenly distributed between each tentacle.

 

Other than that I'm really like the QoL changes and the buffs. Definitely consider the new passive though.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by (XB1)Slimm qp ReapeR

[(PSN)DBR87]

Please make Tentacle Swarm do knock down instead of flailing enemies. Or even better, make his 4 grab enemies and hold them still in the air. Bastille does it, so why not? Because Tentacle Swarm does damage? Fine, make it grab less enemies at base then Bastille. But please, enemies flailing around because of Tentacles is bad because it LOWERS team DPS. Why would I recruit a Hydriod to my squad when Vauban can CC better than Hydriod?

Like seriously, great job allowing team members to shoot at Undertow to damage enemies. That is great because it doesn't shut down the DPS of the team. So please, give Tentacle Swarm the ability to ADD to team DPS, not detract from it. Please have Tentacle Swarm either pin enemies or provide constant knock down.

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

5 hours ago, Mudfam said:

Sorry, am I the supposed "press 4 to win player" here? The same that never uses 4 abilities and likes to kill things with weapons?

Besides this making absolutely no sense whatsoever, just why exactly are you trying to insult me anyway? Is the fact that I find sitting there as puddle for extended periods of time boring really that offensive to you? That is literally all I ever said...

You seem to be really upset about your perception of Hydroids powers for a person that doesnt rely on powers. 

The whole 1 second or gtfo mentality makes it clear. And yes I was referring to you. I believe I said as much in a few different comments. 

[minjisku]

I am really glad that the pool now does % damage (I think thats how it's working now?) that was going to be my biggest criticism of hydroid before the update today.

One thing i think would be nice is allowing the targeting radius of Hydroid's 1 to scale with power range. at maximum range, each explosion has a radius of 13m, and this is greater than the listed targeting range.  I like that EVERY SHOT hits its mark like this, but I think that 25 meters is not a terribly large targeting range, and would allow for a larger area of CC.  Some people may disagree, since the shots are not known to be the most accurate.

Also, I am taking damage and am CC-able in pool, this is clearly not working as intended.

[FriarTuck]

What do you think about it, my fellow Hydromains?

 

[Restmode]

I'm loving the direction that DE is taking with Hydroid so far, I feel as though the synergy issues he had before are not as present anymore. However, even with the most recent changes I think that there's still an issue of him not excelling at anything really as well as being bland...I personally don't care for him being the best frame, but I would like to see him be up to scratch with more current frames. I think an huge problem is this 'puddle gameplay' I don't find it exciting, intuitive or interactive in any way. It seems that DE is pushing for him to be centered around this ability but in a game that is so fast paced it completely goes against it. A welcomed change would be to make his puddle a casted ability like oberon's hallowed ground. 

I'm sure at the end of it Hydroid will be a solid frame, however I thought I would throw ideas around.

[metvincent]

Maybe it's just me since I've only tested Hydroid most recent changes (U 21.5.0) in the simulacrum so far, but I can't see enemies HP bars while drowning them using Undertow. If that's the case, could we get that? I feel like I'm playing a guessing game to find out when mobs will get killed.

Also while joining a clanmate's simulacrum, Bombards AOE were still shooting through my puddle and got my sentinel killed. As someone else pointed out before me, it's probably a host-client issue, but I'm kinda scared to test him in a high level real scenario if I'm on the client side.

Tidal surge's speed and travel distance scales with duration, slapped all duration mods and flew out of the simulacrum  Range affects wave width. Feature of enemies getting dragged by the skill is really inconsistent. This one's by far the one ability tweak I've had the most fun with. Talk about Nova's Worm Hole for fast travelling. Could be a bit cheaper to cast though.

Aside personal opinions regarding his rework, it was cool to see my melee weapon dealing dmg to enemies trapped in my clanmate's puddle, although I'd need some further testing to check if melee range had something to do with it.

[Rakosta_Kai]

I don't see these current changes not getting nerfed eventually. Scaling attack damage and damage immunity just smells like nerf bait.

Undertow is not fun.

I was excited to see the shape Hydroid Prime would take but it appears I won't because he's expected to sit in  a puddle constantly.

 

[RikerWatts]

23 hours ago, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

The charges are a little long, but maybe having reduced charge time within Undertow, as well as a minor energy reduction for Tidal Surge, would greatly enhance his play.

That seem fair?

It might not fix the issues I can see as part of pulling him away from the niche melee passive, but it would help his casting pool far better.

[Buddhakingpen]

9 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

I don't see these current changes not getting nerfed eventually. Scaling attack damage and damage immunity just smells like nerf bait.

Undertow is not fun.

I was excited to see the shape Hydroid Prime would take but it appears I won't because he's expected to sit in  a puddle constantly.

 

Agreed. A frame with 4 cc skills and invulnerability should not also get one of the strongest scaling damage moves in the game. 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Buddhakingpen

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

7 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

It might not fix the issues I can see as part of pulling him away from the niche melee passive, but it would help his casting pool far better.

His passive could use some work, but it only shines in conclave. While I like that he can spawn a tentacle, I'd like a different passive.

[Hopeofhell]

As much as i think Hydroid needs some changes, he doesnt need to be majorly changed at all, they just need to changes some numbers with his scalings and add some QOL changes.
After all Oberon rework was kinda S#&$ till the QOL changes and number tweaks hit.... and same with limbo.

Just because you cant press two buttons and kill everything nearby doesnt mean hes bad. Trinity doesnt do bearly any damage or buffing on her own and yet she is one of the most powerful frames in the game.
A frame doesnt need to be a all powerful killing beast to be good.

[DEADSHOT456]

Ok, I have to say this after the latest update.

DE you took a wrong turn in my humble opinion.

In a quest to achieve synergy you went "Every other ability is affected by one ability" vs Saryn's "Every other ability affects one ability" route.

Let me explain a bit. Saryn's rework was very nice. Because first 3 abilities improved the 4th one. It didn't force you to use just one ability to improve every other ability.

In Hydroid's case, it is the exact opposite. Essentially, with the Hydroid rework, the emphasis is being done to use Undertow much more often. It seems like Undertow is the most important ability in Hydroid's arsenal now and everything about him revolves around Undertow.

Now, one might say that same goes for Oberon's Hallowed Ground. That every other ability is benefited from it.

However, the big difference between Hallowed Ground and Undertow is that Hallowed Ground does a very good job without restricting my gameplay. Undertow, on the other, restricts me to just sit there in a puddle, doing nothing. And no, it does not have anything to do with its damage output.

Now, I am not a fan of achieving synergy by forcing it on a single ability. I much rather prefer how Saryn was reworked.

But even if DE decided to do it like Oberon's rework, in my opinion, it would have been much better if Undertow, instead of doing damage, just collected enemies in the puddle, could Tidal surge to bring in new enemies in the puddle and not leave the previous enemies(move the enemies with him), could Corrosive Barrage them and cast Tentacles and then leave the puddle form, thus leaving behind 20 enemies being slapped by tentacles. I feel like that would have been much more interesting and dynamic, instead of encouraging players to sit in the puddle form.

 

[Voltaic_Backlash]

I like the rework a bit more, especially with the scaling damage from his puddle.  There are just a few issues I have with the puddle:

-Why do enemies not stay in the puddle when we move around with it?

-Since enemies do not stay in the puddle anyways, can we make the puddle a lot faster? 

-The puddle is seriously small now. Could it be made around 30% larger at base than it is now?  When bodies start popping out from dying, it clutters the screen quite rapidly.  Spacing it out a little more seems like it would help with that. Since we can already pull people in from so far away anyways, I don't think this would severely overpower him.

I would like to be able to at least keep pace with someone who is at least walking, much less sprinting or bullet jumping everywhere while in puddle form. As it stands, there is no real point to being able to move the puddle even using Tidal Surge.

Hydroid is now a fine choice for defense oriented missions, his augmented 1 and 3 see to that.  I would love to see him able to bring enemies with him while he is a puddle, especially when I use Tidal Surge from within it.

I do want to bring up the augments, though.  I am sure you can see usage statistics for them.  I am wondering how many Hydroid players are using Corroding Barrage. It seems to me the main feature that makes it useful.  

If everyone is already using that mod, I feel that it would make more sense to just make the armor stripping procs a part of his Barrage, giving him a reliable armor stripping, and freeing up one of those extremely valuable mod slots. 

Moreso than other frames, Hydroid feels like a frame that you need to build for every stat.  Range drastically impacts the usefulness of his 1 and 3, his 1, 2, and 4 all want duration, and his 1, 3, and 4 all thrive off of any power strength you can give him. With how much Hydroid wants to be using abilities, going for max efficiency feels mandatory as well.

I did have a thought for how to help his energy costs as well as removing some of the odd delays from Barrage.  What if we make Tempest Barrage's fully charged form into its natural state with the increased cost, make Tidal Surge cost half its current, then just swap Tempest Barrage and Tidal Surge?

I feel swapping Tidal Surge and Tempest Barrage also makes it more consistent, as that is where most frames with a dash have the ability placed to begin with.

Anyways, those are my two cents.  Thank you for considering my feedback, and good luck on the rework!

Edited August 17, 2017 by Voltaic_Backlash
I can't spell

[Voltaic_Backlash]

I really like the idea of Hydroid having an exalted cannon.  Theoretically it would possibly be the easiest new ability they could give him, especially if they just made the cannon fire a Tempest Barrage shot.

Heck, the exalted weapon could be called the Tempest, which would explain the Barrage...

[(PSN)Shizuo712]

Back in the day, hydroid was my main, but now, I can't play with him no more. I truthly hope that you consider to replace his third ability (you can even, make it his passive), but the thing is that it promotes afk players and it's really an average ability. All his abilities are cc based and you could give him some endurance and support ones. I think that a water based frame should have general abilities and not just cc.

Thank you for the amazing game and to listen to everyone's opinion