[Update 21.4.0] Hydroid Revisited Feedback

[Nazrel]

5 hours ago, TheDefenestrater said:

This "rework" sucks and amounts to minor qol changes that should have happened a long time ago, plus a $&*&*#(%& op buff that's not only not warranted, but also was not requested by the players.  The vast majority of the abilities interactions seem to be unintended glitches that you're indifferent about fixing.

Barrage still hits everything but the people you aim it at, including overhead structures nowhere near where you aim.  Charging barrage takes far more than twice as long to cast, for twice the cost, and simply twice the duration gained.  Charge casting it is NEVER beneficial.  You simply end up spending more of your total time sitting in the charge cast animation.  There's also no visual indicator for how much of a charge cast you're performing.

Surge overall is still clumsy and it doesn't synergize with undertow as well as it should.  Range scaling is the same as rhinos old charge scaling, which was determined to be bad.  Surge leaves behind enemies who were trapped by undertow.  It ragdolls enemies who then get caught on environmental objects or don't get taken into undertow.  You don't loot while surging, but your sentinel can vacuum.

Undertow base movement speed is too slow and only scales (just barely) with sprint speed mods.  It's range scaling is non-existent.  It's damage is too high, and it shouldn't be the focus of the kit.  Undertow disables all of your companions and their precepts, but allows them to be hurt by aoe.  You cannot loot, your sentinel cannot vacuum, and your chesa cannot retrieve while in undertow.  Undertow prevents enemies from being struck by tentacle swarm, and with actually pull enemies off of tentacles while at the same time restricting swarm casts to the area covered by the puddle itself.  Even charge casting swarm from within undertow does absolutely nothing for you but waste energy, since the extra range and tentacles are stuck to the puddle surface only, and the tentacles can't hit anything in the puddle anyways.  Moving the puddle doesn't move enemies who are trapped in the puddle.

Tentacle swarm is the most self-defeating ability there is.  As soon as the tentacles spawn, they launch the enemies into the sky, where they can't be hurt or grabbed by the tentacles, or even shot.  If an enemy is grabbed, the tentacle flails them around, so that you can't shoot them.  Even slow flailing is too much to quickly shoot.  There's too much going on during combat to sit there and try to shoot a randomly shaking target.  The damage still is garbage.  The targeting still is entirely RNG.

Does the glass frame really need to be completed for eidolon release?  Can we focus more on fixing something that's clearly broken?

Agree completly.

[(PSN)crashtester17]

SilentDeathReaper27  0

Started conversation: August 13

hydroid passive.

on kill summons a tentacle max 10.

this is something the comunity wanted changed and i talked to a few people on a lot of difrent sites this is a passive people are ok with that should be easy to implement.

hydroids berrage ability.

when cast from undertow all shots of berrage hit undertow to kill enemys traped in undertow.

hydroids tidle surge ability.

all this ability neads is to increase in size with range mods.

hydroids undertow ability.

this one needs the most work but it is all simple changes.

1. enemys traped in undertow are traped even after moving.

2. after caasting undertow you can leave it and the undertow should stay for the deration.

3. while in undertow hydroid should get a damage buff on all abilities.

4. when hydroid leaves the undertow he should get a armor buff.

basically hydroid could go from a low range dps frame to a long range hard CC tank with the use of undertow.

hydroids tentacle swarm ability.

1. enemys killed by tentacles have a chance to drop energy.

2. enemys hit by tentacles are knocked down instead of grabed.

3. optional if you want to see enemys flying DE make the dead bodies ragdoll when hit with tentacles.

the goal of this was to be easy for DE to implement and fit the theam of hydroid DE has but to also make hydroid more loved by the community.

down sides to hydroid.

energy costs.

abilities casted from undertow have less CC range.

you can take a way the stelth undertow gives hydroid.

enemys with high CC. 

 

I don't really agree with Hydroid becoming a tank since he has a good amount of armor now but the rest of this sounds good and fair.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Can we PLEASE REWORK the visuals on the puddle?

I'm only talking from a purely visual perspective on Undertow.

A vortex (whirlpool) would go a LONG way towards giving this power the visual "teeth" it needs...to erase his "puddle pirate" moniker.  

Thank You!

[Xyhon]

Yesterday the told us on Devstream, that they will not change Hydroids skills. Only tweaks to existing ones. So long Hydroid, you were a hope while it lasted.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Exalted Surge (Augment ?)

Because water is his "weapon", can we have a change/augment mod that applies non-riven melee mod bonuses to Tidal Surge?

This would we AWESOME ^.

Thanks,

Silverback.

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Exalted Surge (Augment ?)

Because water is his "weapon", can we have a change/augment mod that applies non-riven melee mod bonuses to Tidal Surge?

This would we AWESOME ^.

Thanks,

Silverback.

He already has an Augment for Tidal Surge.

That and Tidal Surge is move of a movement based ability than an attack ability. Least, that's how I see it.

[Duduminador]

I'm not obsessed with getting the matches higher %dmg, but I rather kill my own mobs.

I don't understand why it is so @(*()$ important in this game to support players that violate a teamate's gameplay, and then the developers introduce this, a gimmick strictly oriented to give away the kills.

Here I am on a tower interception, doing my thing, drawning mobs. It's not bad enough that other frames have massive area clearing abilities, let's also make it so that guy without range give away kills of the little he can do, let's shoot the damn puddle and make that cornered guy reach the end of the match with 11% damage and make seem even further useless.

yep, Bye Hydroid, rework was nice while it lastest. Shooting the damn puddle killed it to me.
Rip Hydroid's rework 21.4 - 21.5

and back to Volt...

Edited August 19, 2017 by Duduminador

[(PSN)kyotic77]

After listening to the dev stream...  the devs have already basically said that they're not going to do any more big changes to hydroid kit...  which isn't all that bad as I have played  hydroid as my main  for a year the final tweaks will help every player think he's actually fun  and not boring because you won't have to use the puddle.  basically make tentacle swarm his best ability by keeping  the kraken outside for the duration of ability  and basically have all the players with your own weapons damage the Kraken!  the more damage the Kraken takes the more damaging outputs in his tentacles! This creates synergy through the entire team support... Let power strength mod change the limit on how much damage it can absorb.. You don't like puddle?? U don't need it! You can still do great damage and only use puddle when you need a break or for emergencies 

[Essque]

Would it be possible to add an outline of enemies currently submerged in Undertow?  By this I mean some sort of highly transparent glow effect (like you sometimes see after killing enemies in Stasis) so that allies know whether or not you have enemies submerged so that they can shoot the puddle?  Currently it's difficult to tell whether you are an empty puddle or a full one.  Nothing obstructing, just a little particle effect in the shape of the enemy.  It might also be nice (from Hydroid's perspective) to have a counter or something above the Undertow icon indicating how many enemies you currently have submerged. 

I also think it would be cool if when casting Tidal Surge if you could control the direction of the wave.  I get stuck on terrain fairly often and it would be cool to be able to navigate around a bit.  It would also be super cool to "run" in a circle with it as if I were a whirlpool sucking up all the enemies before blasting them out of the wave.  This one probably isn't a small change though.

Would it also be possible to decrease the delay between when you cast Undertow and when you cancel it?  Sometimes I just like to submerge everyone and then pop right back up so I can stab them on the ground.  I used to do it all the time, but can't anymore.  To be fair, I didn't used to be able to yank people in or move though which is super awesome.

Tidal Impunity causes odd flashing on sigils.  I also noticed this on Rhino with Iron Skin.  Would you guys mind taking a look into this?  The flickering sigils gives me a bit of a headache.  I tend to avoid using the augment mostly due to this.

Thank you for all the changes!  I play him a bit differently now and am really loving the new stuff!  Always thought he was really cool!

[Ryuurik]

My first try after "nerf" was today. I used Energy siphon and maxed Zenurik overflow. I had 130% Efficiency and 180% Power strenght.

I couldn't say i was satisfied other than his 1 and 3, since his 2 seems pretty useless and 4 is incredibly power hungry ability and doesn't do much damage in my opinion.

I'm not particularly impressed about 4's "Charge to get more tentacles" mechanic. I'd rather hope to be able to cast tentacle swarm to multiple locations instead what it currently does. I mean, that when i cast second tentacle swarm first one i casted earlier disappears!

And i must remind about power hungriness of tentacle swarm, even though my feedback is short.

Couldn't be more disappointed after i discovered, that my energy color doesn't affect anymore to tentacle color!

[Ryuurik]

3 hours ago, JetstreamAlex said:

Actually I think that the real Hydroid's problem for me is Tentacle Swarm. It is the ultimate ability but is boring, useless, with stupid AI, and only good to farm (with augment).

Hydroid already have 3 static ability, so my idea is to make the Kraken mobile like a Kubrow! Or to do en Exalted Kraken!

Thumbs up for mobile kraken :D

[King-Baconbeard]

He needs to form a puddle either under his feet or cover himself in water, Allowing allies to focus fire on one spot(him or puddle) that will spread across all tentacles during his 4th.

 

and allow Tidal-surge to cause no damage while in puddle form but cost no energy (make it in puddle form a fully fledged Movement ability using shift)

 

or allow him to move at half speed in puddle form

[Berzerkir]

A better option yet would be to get rid of undertow altogether.

 

EDIT: instead of making him the less interesting of the wonder twins, why not actually make him feel pirate-y?

Edited August 19, 2017 by Berzerkir

[King-Baconbeard]

Just now, Berzerkir said:

A better option yet would be to get rid of undertow altogether.

only small changes allowed now :(

[Berzerkir]

then why put so much effort into something which goes against the entire playstyle of the game?

[(PSN)Silverback73]

49 minutes ago, Berzerkir said:

A better option yet would be to get rid of undertow altogether.

 

EDIT: instead of making him the less interesting of the wonder twins, why not actually make him feel pirate-y?

We tried.  It's just too resource-intensive to be reworked based on DE's response.  I'll probably make my Hydroid a "Surging/Barrage" Hydroid and leave interceptions and the like to other frames.  

+1 wonder twins reference.

Edited August 19, 2017 by (PS4)Silverback73

[(PSN)Silverback73]

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

He already has an Augment for Tidal Surge.

That and Tidal Surge is move of a movement based ability than an attack ability. Least, that's how I see it.

Which is seemingly broken upon recast ATM.

And no, it's an invulnerability/attack/knockdown ability.

No one is using Tidal Surge for movement when you have Loki/Rhino/Volt/Nezha/Nova/Excalibur that do a much better job.

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Which is seemingly broken upon recast ATM.

And no, it's an invulnerability/attack/knockdown ability.

No one is using Tidal Surge for movement when you have Loki/Rhino/Volt/Nezha/Nova/Excalibur that do a much better job.

When I'm by myself, it's pretty good for me. It's fast and goes a long way.

This in particular is debateable as the ability is as useful as the user makes it. However they decide to.

[Berzerkir]

I think we can all agree that the changes made were severely insufficient in comparison to what was expected.
In addition, there needs to be a change to augments that should just be part of the move to begin with.

[Azamagon]

Overall, the rework imo has gone quite nicely. He is definitely capable of doing something decent besides aiding with loot now, and he has lots of good natural synergies. But there are still a few things that I think are worth polishing up.

Passive

• Of all things, this is the only thing I'd completely revamp, if possible, because it just doesn't mesh with his playstyle. Doesn't need to be something advanced, just something better and more fitting. If the current passive at least also spawned Tentacles on groundfinishers (with 100% chance), it would at least fit a tad better for his ability kit (since a lot of his abilities knock enemies down, opening them to groundfinishers). Personally, I'd go with something entirely different, something either to help with his casting, or something truly passive that could aid Hydroid and/or the team in general. Like, innate ammo scavenger (for all ammo types) and loot radar?

 

Undertow

• While the damage was changed into Impact for balance reasons, it has caused two problems for me:
  1) Using it against armored enemies basicly REQUIRES you to equip the Corrosive Barrage augment for Tempest Barrage now, or else it's pointless for the sake of being a damage skill (at least if Hydroid himself wants to do any killing while inside the puddle).
  2) Imo, it makes very little sense for a DROWNING ability to deal Impact damage. I'd rather it was reverted back to Finisher-damage, but the scaling lessened too, so killing is more reliable and even across all factions. It should still be the fastest to kill the enemies inside the puddle by shooting at it, but it shouldn't take half a minute to kill a single unit with Undertow alone either.
• The manual grabbing with primary fire, which is incredibly fun and makes the ability feel very interactive... why is its range so very, very short though? A big buff to its range would do wonders to making puddlemode even more fun.
• Moving is so incredibly slow, and moving makes enemies be left behind (i.e. they pop out of the puddle), so why does it cost energy to move? I'd understand the energycost if it dragged enemies along AND if it was faster. But as it is, removing the energycost for moving would be helpful without breaking anything (quicker Undertow movement is covered by Tidal Surge anyway, which understandably costs energy).
• While the ability is much more viable now, it IS still rather boring to remain still as a puddle most of the time, considering it is both his main damage-ability AND his main survivability-skill. So, here's an idea to cater to both sides of the stationary/mobile arguements:
  On cast, it does what it does now, no changes. However, moving out of the puddle with jump or roll keeps the puddle in place for a max of X seconds (say, 20 seconds at max rank, modified by Power Duration), allowing Hydroid himself to shoot at the puddle and such, and to allow him to Tidal Surge groups pf enemies into the puddle, so he himself can collect enemies into the puddle trap and such while enabling a more mobile playstyle at the same time for him. As for restrictions and such:
  • He can jump back into the puddle by pressing X when near it. This lets him keep going with the puddle he has already placed (to not lose out on the stacking damage on the enemies already caught).
  • If outside the puddle, pressing 3 cancels the existing Undertow. Press 3 once more to let Hydroid create a new Undertow at his current location (Due to this, that means only 1 puddle can remain out at once). If he is inside the puddle, pressing 3 both takes him out of the puddle and cancels the Undertow (just like now).
  • If he is outside of the puddle, the energydrain of Undertow still continues

 

Tempest Barrage

• While it seems to be better overall now, I do not like how it is so extremely reliant on its augment to be fully worthwhile (on armored factions), especially so when the new Undertow is considered. Making it proc Corrosive (and Magnetic) by default would give it a niche that would make him quite valuable overall. That, and/or make it (not far too extremely though) deal damage that scales with enemy levels, similar to Oberon's Smite, so it does something beyond knockdowns or resistance reductions. Scalable damage would also make its chargefunction truly valuable, as well as synergize better with Undertow if it was returned to being finisherdamage (then make the TB augment cause both Magnetic and Corrosive procs, so it is less factionbiased. I think similar changes should be done for all armor-reduction effects on abilities and augments; meaning make them deal with shields too, so they are less factionbiased)
• Further, while it seems a TAD more accurate now, something I'd like to add is for at least the 1st barrage (and possibly also every, say, 6th salvo or so?) to be a HUGE barrage drop which hits dead centre of the landing area, but also covers the ENTIRE landing area, to give it a bit more true reliability.

 

Tidal Surge
I like it overall, but some things I think would help enormously:

• Ability to cancel it midcast with a non-ability, such as by jumping, would be nice to let you not overshoot it as often.
• Considering its cost, maybe make it give Hydroid a brief survivabilitybuff after casting (such as 70% DR for 6 seconds), so he is not so extremely reliant on Undertow (or the RNG of his CC) to survive tougher content. He is a rather "frontline" Warframe after all.
• Half its cost. At the very least while inside Undertow (since then the buff suggested above would be more wasted).

Tentacle Swarm

• The tentacles becoming slower while it has grabbed an enemy is very nice, great job with that! I still would prefer it to entirely hold still and constrict+choke+crush enemies, so they are not disruptive at all, but if this is too difficult to implement, I'd say that the slower tentacles is probably good enough.
• Having the Tentacles (which have no targets captured) move around at moderate speeds in the spawn area to try and find new targets would both help its CC-nature, and make it feel more alive (considering the Kraken and all that). It would truly make it stand out a lot better in his kit. This could also give much more value for its charge-up effect, and would certainly give more strategical value as to wether you want to charge it or not (depending if you wanna place it in a chokepoint or if you want it to go crazy in a large area).
• When cast, if a Tentacle spawns under an enemy, it currently launches it up in orbit, which is just downright annoying and disruptive. Could this be fixed somehow?

 

TLDR;
Passive - Innate ammo scavenger and loot radar instead?
Tempest Barrage - 1) Enemylevel scalable damage (not too extreme though), 2) augment procs Magnetic too, 3) first barrage drop covers the entire landing area
Tidal Surge - 1) Lowered energycost, 2) give Hydroid damageresistance for X seconds after cast, 3) cancellable also with a jump
Undertow - 1) Higher manual grabbing range, 2) can exit the Undertow with the puddle still lingering for max X duration if you jump or roll out, 3) tone down the damage-scalability a bit but make it deal Finisher-damage again, 4) remove the energycost for moving while in Undertow
Tentacle Swarm - 1) No more enemy launching when spawned underneath them, 2) make the tentacles move and seek out enemies within its spawn-area

Edited August 19, 2017 by Azamagon

[Berzerkir]

5 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

TLDR;

Passive - Innate ammo scavenger and loot radar instead?
Tempest Barrage - 1) Enemylevel scalable damage (not too extreme though), 2) augment procs Magnetic too, 3) first barrage drop covers the entire landing area
Tidal Surge - 1) Lowered energycost, 2) give Hydroid damageresistance for X seconds after cast, 3) cancellable also with a jump
Undertow - 1) Higher manual grabbing range, 2) can exit the Undertow with the puddle still lingering for max X duration if you jump or roll out, 3) tone down the damage-scalability a bit but make it deal Finisher-damage again
Tentacle Swarm - 1) No more enemy launching when spawned underneath them, 2) make the tentacles move and seek out enemies within its spawn-area

How about nix the AFK move, make you go wave form on slide, and make two new abilities to make him feel like a pirate?
also, fixed area size of tempest barrage, but size of explosions scale with range, combine in current augment, and add new augment: danger close. makes it a toggle where the barrage is centered on you and follows around.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Berzerkir
spelling

[ThiagoSampaio]

They will not make new skills, and it really is not necessary <imo

[(PSN)Silverback73]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

When I'm by myself, it's pretty good for me. It's fast and goes a long way.

This in particular is debateable as the ability is as useful as the user makes it. However they decide to.

Yes, you can utilize it for a short dash down a straight hallway.  I'm never going to tell another player how to enjoy Warframe.

I'm just pointing out that there are  more effective speed/mobility buffs that are very similar and that most players aren't using TS for speed runs,which is what you stated.

You said it was a movement ability, which is not it's primary focus.

Edited August 19, 2017 by (PS4)Silverback73

[CiscoAtTheDisco]

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

TLDR;
Passive - Innate ammo scavenger and loot radar instead?
Tempest Barrage - 1) Enemylevel scalable damage (not too extreme though), 2) augment procs Magnetic too, 3) first barrage drop covers the entire landing area
Tidal Surge - 1) Lowered energycost, 2) give Hydroid damageresistance for X seconds after cast, 3) cancellable also with a jump
Undertow - 1) Higher manual grabbing range, 2) can exit the Undertow with the puddle still lingering for max X duration if you jump or roll out, 3) tone down the damage-scalability a bit but make it deal Finisher-damage again, 4) remove the energycost for moving while in Undertow
Tentacle Swarm - 1) No more enemy launching when spawned underneath them, 2) make the tentacles move and seek out enemies within its spawn-area

I like the passive idea of having ground finishers always spawn a tentacle which could be added with his current passive if they don't want to change it too much. The loot radar for passive and innate ammo scavenger would also be an interesting route to go and fit the pirate theme.

I was thinking what if tidal surge focused in a small condensed aoe around the targeted enemy with charging it giving the full range. So you could get a reliable 1 ability to knockdown that bombard about to shoot you in the face and the charged barrage for the larger aoe damage.

I  do agree that the ability is nice for mobility and being able to jump out of it would be useful. I was thinking that having its augment send out the wave to knockdown or push back enemies instead of having it for mobility. This would give you options and would work well with your suggestion for undertow or ground finishers spawning tentacles. We could also have the wave itself while moving in it or sending it out expand like Frost's ice wave to affect more enemies and could be affected by range as well.

If enemies are intended to not stay in the puddle when moving then I agree that the energy cost for moving while in undertow should be removed. If enemies are intended to stay in the puddle then I would say keep it. I really like the idea of exiting the undertow and having it stay for a duration, you could also send enemies towards the undertow with the above suggested tidal surge augment if you want to move around more, or if you prefer riding your wave back to your undertow you could play it that way too. You could have it so you can gain energy while your puddle stays since you're vulnerable again and have it start to drain energy once the duration ends or you hop back into the puddle. Being able to exit the puddle while keeping it active would also promote a more active play-style. With this change however recasting your 3 would cancel your active puddle so you can cast it again to save yourself, and the canceled puddle would eject the remaining enemies and have them be open to ground finishers, which would give the suggested passive more use as well.

As for tentacle swarm I really like the suggestion of having enemies be choked/constricted but I don't mind having it with the slower flailing as enemies can now be shot at easier. I also really like the idea of the tentacles seeking out a target if it doesn't already have one.

 

Overall the undertow changes should promote a more active play style and having a smaller barrage option castable on a target while keeping the range of a charged barrage would give you more options to flow with the ever changing battlefield.

 

[Berzerkir]

idk, I still wouldn't use interactive to describe undertow...