[DE]Danielle

[Update 21.4.0] Hydroid Revisited Feedback

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As it stands Hydroid brings nothing to the table that other frames can't do much better.

Suggestion:

Make him more of a grouping CC frame, one that offers great CC at the cost of not being able to actively do damage while doing so.  Make his 2 a pull in effect that yanks enemies towards you once.  Then change his 3 to stun enemies (without making them untargetable).

This would make him a more useful CC frame, as he is currently lacking in damage, utility, CC, and his only way to be especially tanky is to do nearly nothing while slowly hemorrhaging energy.

Edited by KBgamer

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5 hours ago, KBgamer said:

As it stands Hydroid brings nothing to the table that other frames can't do much better.

 

You need to look at the whole package of abilities, not just compare individual abilities.

He can strip armor, has 4 CC abilities, an invulnerability state, healing, extra loot AND amazing (!!) scaling damage all in one package. Few frames combine all that in one single package.

PS: To claim Hydroid lacks damage is the joke of the century...he's got one of the best scaling damage abilities in game ;)

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8 hours ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

You need to look at the whole package of abilities, not just compare individual abilities.

He can strip armor, has 4 CC abilities, an invulnerability state, healing, extra loot AND amazing (!!) scaling damage all in one package. Few frames combine all that in one single package.

PS: To claim Hydroid lacks damage is the joke of the century...he's got one of the best scaling damage abilities in game ;)

He can apply corrosive (which required a mod slot), something any status gun can do while also doing damage, all of his cc is a joke, his invulnerability state forces him to be nearly useless for the duration, his healing is garbage(which requires a mod slot), extra loot from units under the effect of his 4(which requires a mod slot), vs Necro which just gives extra loot, and wtf damage are you taking about?  Even if you get max strength you cant make those abilities useful, his 1 is too random and immobile, his 3 can be beat by most weapons, and his 4 does little dmg and makes the targets harder to shoot

Edited by KBgamer

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1 hour ago, KBgamer said:

He can apply corrosive (which required a mod slot), something any status gun can do while also doing damage, all of his cc is a joke, his invulnerability state forces him to be nearly useless for the duration, his healing is garbage(which requires a mod slot), extra loot from units under the effect of his 4(which requires a mod slot), vs Necro which just gives extra loot, and wtf damage are you taking about?  Even if you get max strength you cant make those abilities useful, his 1 is too random and immobile, his 3 can be beat by most weapons, and his 4 does little dmg and makes the targets harder to shoot

His 3 still kills thanks to scaling when the vast majority of weapons are dropping off. 

And again, you are missing the point. You compare his looting to Nekros...and yeah, Nekros can be the better farmer, but he has no scaling damage and less CC. Equinox can do more damage, but can't be invulnerable or get extra loot. Nidus tanks better, but does worse damage. 

Look at the whole package instead of comparing individual abilities on their own.

Calling puddle useless when it kills high level mods in seconds is beyond hilarious...you don't even need a lot of strength to do that. His 4 also isn't meant to be a huge damage dealer...it buys you time through CC and provides you with loot/energy. 

Healing is fine given he can be invulnerable whenever he wants and things get too much.

Let me guess, you sat in the puddle most of the time ;)

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7 hours ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

His 3 still kills thanks to scaling when the vast majority of weapons are dropping off. 

And again, you are missing the point. You compare his looting to Nekros...and yeah, Nekros can be the better farmer, but he has no scaling damage and less CC. Equinox can do more damage, but can't be invulnerable or get extra loot. Nidus tanks better, but does worse damage. 

Look at the whole package instead of comparing individual abilities on their own.

Calling puddle useless when it kills high level mods in seconds is beyond hilarious...you don't even need a lot of strength to do that. His 4 also isn't meant to be a huge damage dealer...it buys you time through CC and provides you with loot/energy. 

Healing is fine given he can be invulnerable whenever he wants and things get too much.

Let me guess, you sat in the puddle most of the time ;)

Nidus doing less damage? 40k spamable 1 vs 40k on a centered location with high cost, Necro having no cc? 40 second fears and creaking damage soaking decoys isn't cc? His 3 at MAX str does >100 dmg plus 7% of their Hp (not a lot of dmg) his healing is slower than the hp dropables, so any frame can do it better than him, this so called scaling you are taking about, is in the numbers not practice.  But based on what you think is a lot of damage you clearly don't do end tier content.  Also being sub-par at everything is much worst than being great at one or two things.

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I... didn't see this topic at the top of the first page for abilities. Now I feel bad for making my own separate topic. In any case, I'll just repost that very lengthy essay here instead.

 

My history with Hydroid is the same as everyone else's, I'm sure, so I'll keep it brief:

I was excited when I got Hydroid, but was told he was trash. At the time, my MR was too low and mods were lacking to make him viable. Upon Hydroid Prime coming out, I was super excited about the changes, but was ultimately underwhelmed by how little actually changed (and this is at MR 20, with most end-game mods owned).

The most disappointing part of the rework was the forced synergy. I get the reasons for it, but it didn't seem to make the most sense. Here, I'll point out those things, and some tweaks and ideas that I feel have a little more utility than the current synergy.

 

Tempest Barrage:

  • This ability is perfect the way it is. It can be cast over unrestricted range, can be charged for more damage and duration, and has no limit on number of instances that can be up. It's almost too broken. Excels at CC and is best used on open maps, like for Interception on Ceres. For high level missions, this ability is excellent at knocking down enemies for quick melee finishers. Extremely effective with Zenurik, as the charge time for more power/duration allows you to regain the energy you lost from the last cast before casting again.
  • The duration is just low enough to keep it from being too ridiculous. For longer duration CC, Hydroid must use Tentacle Swarm. I have personal issues with Tentacle Swarm, but those reasons are mostly preference and are covered further down.
  • I have not tested the Augment, but from what I understand, it does Corrosive Procs but not Corrosive damage. I'm unsure as to how good this is, although I've heard it's useless.

Tempest Barrage (Proposed Changes)

  1. The only thing I really want to change is the way the synergy with Undertow works. Currently, the only synergy between the two abilities is the fact that Tempest Barrage can damage enemies inside of Undertow. An interesting mechanic I only found out about recently is that any damage shot into Undertow is halved and distributed evenly amongst all the enemies currently trapped in it.
  2. ABILITY SYNERGY - UNDERTOW: When cast while in Undertow, ALL water missiles will focus ONLY on the Undertow puddle, continuously doing damage to enemies inside for the whole duration. Along with the proposed change to Tidal Surge/Undertow Synergy, high damage can be done to a large amount of enemies very quickly, at the cost of a lot of energy.

 

Tidal Surge:

  • Depending on the purpose of your Hydroid, this ability can be useful or useless. On large open maps, or maps with long hallways, this ability lets you zoom across the map at high speeds with a high enough duration, ragdolling everything in your path. This happens to be the only use, though. Since the ability is limited in it's left-to-right range, it can only really be used effectively in one direction, if enemies are clumped together. Enemies will not always do this, however, and even if they do, Tempest Barrage is much better at CC.
  • The problems I have with this ability is it's limited utility and lack of 3D mobility. Tidal Surge is restricted to only ground movement, which seems silly in a game with as much emphasis on movement as Warframe.
  • Finally, the sillyness of a one-directional, ground-restricted ability is even more obvious when you look at the augment. Tidal Impunity removes status and grants status immunity, but allies have to be hit by the wave for it to happen. Since it's incredibly difficult to hit multiple team members with a one-directional ground-restricted ability in the middle of a mission when it's most useful, like defense, this augment falls flat on it's face.

Tidal Surge (Proposed Changes):

  1. In the interest of high mobility and utility, I think it'd be cool to have Tidal Surge work like bullet jumping. Aiming in an upwards direction will allow Tidal Surge to travel in that direction for the one second designated by the ability, with the speed affected by duration, like the ability already does while traveling horizontally.
  2. Using while looking forward will still allow Tidal Surge to act as normal. When used at an upwards angle, though, the Tidal Surge gets larger in size vertically. After the animation ends, the much larger Tidal Surge falls straight down, crashing on enemies below. The larger size would be affected by the angle used and the Hydroid's duration (as it affects the total distance travelled), and the width of the wave would be determined by range. This will not affect the strength of the ability.
  3. For example: Hydroid uses his Tidal Surge with max duration while underneath the cargo crate on Akkad, aimed at the top middle of the room's opposite side. Hydroid travels at a near 45 Degree angle, drawing a "curtain" of water across the room. When the ability ends, that "curtain" of water crashes to the ground, doing damage to all enemies underneath and knocking them off their feet. This mechanic would also work if Tidal surge is horizontal, but over open space (like from a high position).
  4. AUGMENT - This change would synergize well with the Tidal Impunity augment, since any allies underneath the "curtain" could gain the status immunity buff. This would give the ability much more utility and creativity.
  5. ABILITY SYNERGY - UNDERTOW: When undertow is activated during Tidal Surge, the extended "curtain" drops in place after it's one second duration, and wherever it drops is the initial range of Undertow. Hydroid's position on the map shifts from the endpoint of TSU to the center of the "curtain". Undertow then rapidly contracts, pulling all enemies under Tidal Surge's "curtain" into the normal range of Undertow, like a sink drain! If too many enemies get pulled into a small Undertow area, extras are left in a short duration ragdolled state just outside the puddle. This synergy can be heavily energy penalized to prevent spamming.

 

Undertow:

  • This ability... is terrible, in my opinion. The forced synergy we currently have for it doesn't make any more useful or desirable. It's slow moving, it does very low damage, and you'll often run out of energy before an enemy inside drowns. Not to mention that enemies with auras like Leech Eximus units and Ancients can still use those auras while drowning, which can be a detriment to you and your team, since you can't see the enemies that are drowning and take precautions for it.
  • This ability needs more control over the enemies inside of it. An idea I feel is pretty interesting is listed below to deal with this.
  • The Augment for this ability is Curative Undertow. The heals are nice, and particularly effective with higher power strength. Unfortunately, it's incredibly inconvenient that the "aura" that shows that your puddle can heal teammates is so difficult to see. I run around behind teammates, trying to heal them, but since it's difficult to see and because the game is so movement oriented, I often get ignored, dodged, jumped away from, or told to stop being annoying until they notice that they're being healed.
  • One nice thing that is helpful about this ability is the invulnerability. If you're quick enough to use it as a panic button, you can avoid massive damage from enemies from like Juggernaut and Phorid, or avoid annoying abilities like the Arson and Caustic Eximus blast.

Undertow (Proposed Changes):

  1. Obviously, better visibility for the augment. I can't be an effective support for my team if they don't know I'm trying to support them. Perhaps extend the visual effects of the heal aura by a few meters vertically?
  2. The two Synergy changes that have already been listed above would change the ability for the better, in my opinion, in addition to this last one:
  3. ABILITY SYNERGY - TIDAL SURGE: As opposed to the synergy of using Tidal Surge then Undertow, there can be a separate synergy for using it in the opposite order. When casting Tidal Surge from Undertow, a strong wave propagates outwards from the center to twice the puddle's normal range, ragdolling enemies inside the puddle outwards 20-30m, and causing knockdowns (but no ragdolling) on enemies nearby. Hydroid does not move during this process, and the ability has extremely low damage. This can be used to save a teammate swarmed by enemies, clear an objective, or get rid of that pesky Leech Eximus you ate on accident. This can also work well with both Abilities' Augments, allowing the wave to do one tick of Curative augment healing and activate the Impunity augment on allies within it's wave radius.
  4. Alternatively, the synergy mentioned above can be a "hold" ability, much like Inaros' fourth ability. Tapping the Undertow ability toggles it, while holding it while active initiates the radial wave. This would mean the wave only activates the Curative Undertow, and not the Tidal Impunity.

 

Tentacle Swarm:

  • I have very few problems with this ability, but they're mostly preferential. I could complain that the tentacles wave enemies above your head, out of melee reach, but this could just be geared towards people who stick to primary and secondary weapons. I could complain that Tempest Barrage is better at CC, but to be honest, Tentacle Swarm does good damage for a much longer duration, which makes sense for a fourth ability.
  • Casting from Undertow centers the tentacles on the puddle, which I think is supposed to help with the enemies you eat on accident. This ends up not being too helpful if your teammates aren't paying attention to the Leeches waving above their heads. The charged extra damage and tentacles is a cheesy tie in for Undertow, but I think it ended up actually being really effective.
  • The augment is also arguably the best, and I have no issues with it.

 

So, in conclusion:

  1. Modified Hydroid ability parameters can increase effectiveness.
  2. New Hydroid synergies may not be easy to add, but would be creative and useful.
  3. As a water based Warframe, It's be interesting if Hydroid's abilities were more focused around knockdowns
  4. The augments can be more effective with more tweaks.
  5. The changes presented here are more geared towards large areas, and this article was inspired by the PoEidolon update to come to consoles soon.

 

Sorry if this felt lazy towards the end. It's late, and I've spent several hours writing this. I didn't plan on writing all this, but as I was writing I had new ideas (like that sink drain thing). Let me know what you all think. I'm going to sleep.

ZZZZZzzzzzZZZZZzzzzz

  • Upvote 1

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I think Hydroid's Tentacle Swarm could use some further tweaking.

I would like it if:

- Tentacle swarm does not send enemies 100s meters into the air. It was amusing the first time.

- Tentacles only grab and suspend enemies in midair while squeezing them for damage. It is annoying to try to shoot them while they are being slammed around. 

  • Upvote 4

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More suggestions:

Tempest Barrage - Refreshes the duration of your Tentacle Swarm when you cast it at it.

Tidal Surge and Undertow - Just make these both the same ability. Stand still and be a puddle, move and be a wave.

Edited by CapnToaster

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On 10/08/2017 at 2:26 PM, [DE]Danielle said:
  • Improved the targeting of Hydroid’s Tempest Barrage liquid fury. 

This could be better, Its difficult too see the area effect of tempestade barragem while you're aiming.

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5 hours ago, Khaeji said:

This could be better, Its difficult too see the area effect of tempestade barragem while you're aiming.

Try using a brighter energy color.

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On 06/11/2017 at 3:28 AM, FriarTuck said:

Try using a brighter energy color.

I try, but in some missions i Just can see that. 

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The wiki mentions that I can move faster while in Undertow by pressing Shift. Am I missing something here, or it doesn't work at all?

Some other minor things:

- It would be nice to be able to reload while in Undertow

- Is being able to see the enemies inside the puddle simply too much to do in terms of processing power or what? The ability would play much better with team mates if they can just see the enemies and shoot at them under the water rather than this 50% distributed damage business.

Edited by CapnToaster

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2 hours ago, CapnToaster said:

The wiki mentions that I can move faster while in Undertow by pressing Shift. Am I missing something here, or it doesn't work at all?

Some other minor things:

- It would be nice to be able to reload while in Undertow

- Is being able to see the enemies inside the puddle simply too much to do in terms of processing power or what? The ability would play much better with team mates if they can just see the enemies and shoot at them under the water rather than this 50% distributed damage business.

If your gun is empty when you undertow you can force an auto reload.  It's a nice trick

  • Upvote 1

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