[Update 21.4.0] Hydroid Revisited Feedback

[Stinguuu]

In my opinion, the rework feels alright, yet some aspects of it do lag behind. My, personal, biggest issue of the rework would be how little impact the Kraken, whether visually or ability wise, has. If it could be something small, such as when you use Tidal Surge, whether or not you are using Undertow it appears briefly, swimming as if it where a shark with its fin out of the water, with it diving back down when the dash ends. Or something larger, such as when you use your fully charged tentacle swarm, instead of it appearing for around 7 second, it would rise up and rather than the base water tentacles, it would use the tentacles from the actual Kraken (and not dive down after only 7 seconds). The only other thing I could offer would be to add some form of energy regeneration to his kit, with how dependent he is on it now; maybe something along the lines of for every enemy he has in his undertow, be gets flat (or scaling?) energy regen up to a cap. Also pretty please make his passive more reliable to activate.

Another little thing I wanted to add in, is that to give props to whoever worked on the water visuals in his abilities. They are honestly really well grafted into his abilities.

[Obe-Ron-Kenobi]

Time for an unrealistically ambitious and extensive Hydroid suggestion! 

Passive: 

• Preform finisher attacks faster with a 50% chance to spawn a tentacle that scales with Power Duration and loots (either the corpse or the enemy itself if it survives). 

Spoiler

I saw the first half of this passive suggested by @Raptor1jdan I think it suits Hydroid Perfectly and I couldn't have said it better myself (so here's the quote)!

12 hours ago, Raptor1jdan said:

All of these changes look great but I'm disappointed there has been basically no change to his passive, it's usefulness (what little it had) has been completely removed now that his tentacles are more proactive in their carnage...

That being said I have a suggestion for a new passive: give him an increased base finisher speed, this would work both mechanically by letting him take more advantage of all of the knockdowns in his kit and thematically by making him feel more like a *cut-throat* pirate

Hydroid's first, second, and third ability all apply a knockdown status to enemies. This passive would allow players to utilize Hydroid's kit in a more complementary way than it is currently. The current passive is inconsistent at its best and unnoticeable at its worst and is incongruous with the bulk of Hydroid's kit (as his abilities encourage ground coverage rather than aerial play where slam attacks are more necessary). 

Although I enjoy DE's reference of the oar hitting the surface of the water to summon the kraken (thanks @Sabuuchi), if I have to sacrifice functionality for it I'm not happy. Instead, I propose that the finisher attack has a chance to summon a tentacle (as if a sacrifice to the great beast). This Tentacle would act uniquely in that it's primary function is to loot the enemy's body after the finisher attack or simply finish it off (similar to the Pilfering Swarm augment but on a much, MUCH smaller scale).  The tentacle would remain active based on a player's Power Duration and will attempt to loot other victims that pass by or are near. Just a brainstorm, but maybe said tentacle has a higher chance to loot credits and/or double dropped credits from an enemy? Pirates gotta have that booty after all. 

 

1. Tempest Barrage:

• Casting on a specific target guarantees the first hit from the barrage.
• Allow Corroding Barrage to strip armor while enemies are submerged by Undertow.
• Targets affected by undertow that are damaged by tempest barrage are damaged for an additional 5-15% of the enemies max HP, ignoring armor.

Spoiler

Being able to target an enemy with the initial cast helps prioritize VIP enemies and adds an extra "oh S#&$" button when things get too close for comfort (which they inevitably will considering Hydroid's improved but still low ehp). Using Tempest Barrage on a Bombard to immediately see him get knocked down saves you a lot of nail biting (and praying to RNG) that one of your projectiles will hit him before his rocket hits you. 

Though I initially thought that Tempest Barrage suffered too much from RNG, I've become a bit more familiar with the ability's knockdown radius and therefore, in my opinion, its manageable. Though it would be greatly appreciated if the ability had better tracking, it can be both modded and worked around with experience. That being said however, I find the ability to be most inconsistent while using it in Undertow as its difficult to tell how much you are damaging enemies when submerged. To remedy this, I believe that Tempest Barrage should damage enemy health for an additional 5-15% (unrestricted) when they are submerged. This seems a bit low perhaps, but the amount of projectiles should compensate for this. The reason I believe that Tempest Barrage should do scaling damage is to add some true CC to Hydroid in the form of damage. As it stands, the frame is incredible at coverage and lock-down due to the constant knockdowns and AOE he provides and though this can be very beneficial in team situations, it is almost always better to kill enemies than to perma-stun them with Undertow. By synergizing Hydroid's 1 and 3 with each other to have a scaling damage buff, Hydroid gains access to a dependable damage source.

Because Corroding Barrage does not activate while Enemies are submerged by Undertow the augment is made near useless when used near your puddle. It would be a small QoL buff if enemies were affected while submerged, but something that would give way to more strategic options and variety during play.

 

2. Tidal Surge:

• Using the ability again while in motion cancels the action, stopping Tidal Surge without having to use Undertow to stop.
• Enemies hit by the wave undergo a guaranteed cold proc or "Drench" proc (explained below).

Spoiler

It is quite frustrating having to use more energy on an already limited energy pool in order to stop Tidal Surges crazy momentum. I find that the ability would work much smoother if Hydroid could cast the ability again while in motion in order to stop (but if cast in Undertow remain in submerged after Tidal Surge has been stopped).

Okay so this is where things may get the most far fetched and convoluted out of this whole post, but hear me out because it could easily make Hydroid into an even more viable CC frame. The idea was inspired by @mogamu 's Video over Hydroid's Rework speculation where he mentioned that tidal surge should apply a cold proc to enemies as they were hit by it. This makes an incredible amount of sense and honestly would be way easier than my thought  but in an effort to make the least popular frame a bit more special, I am proposing that Hydroid should receive a status proc he can apply that is unique to his kit. The Status is called "Drenched" and has a raindrop symbol as it procs. No enemy is resistant or weak to Drenched procs and it does no damage. What it does do however, is apply a 50% movement/attack speed debuff just like cold procs, and armor stripping like corrosive procs (only much weaker) for a period of 12 seconds. While enemies are drenched they cannot receive fire procs and fire damage is halved but electric damage is 25% more effective against them. Why should there be a totally new status element unique to only one character in the game? Well for one the memes and two the utility of applying a slow and (albeit weak) armor strip at the same time would be more than enough reason to choose Hydroid over another CC frame.  There are a lot of applications to be explored with such a powerful proc and it would be interesting to see the creative builds because of it. Then again, maybe I'm asking too much...

 

3. Undertow:

• Allow movement in undertow with reduced range. Enemies do not submerge while Hydroid is in this state.
• Crouching with undertow active submerges Hydroid, replicating the current playstyle.
• Increase base range to 5m.
• Hydroid cannot bullet jump when moving while undertow is active but can from submerged state.
• Any enemy within the range of Undertow receives a guaranteed Cold/Drench proc.
• Curative Undertow becomes a part of the base ability, always restoring health to Hydroid and Allies. ([Curative Undertow] augment is instead changed to [Refreshing Tides] which regenerates 3 energy per second for Hydroid and allies affected by undertow but removes its ability to heal).

Spoiler

When I first saw that all of Hydroids abilities revolve around Undertow I was verrrrrrryyyy skeptic to say the least. Having played around with it though, I find it to be a decent ability but one that could definitely benefit from more mobility. Because of this, I suggest that Hydroid should be able to move on top of Undertow with unrestricted movement speed at the cost of energy (instead of distance/energy drain, make the drain an additional 1 energy per second at base so that Hydroid doesn't immediately run out of energy). While in mobile form, Undertow loses 1.5 meters at base to compensate for the mobility aspect and enemies do not submerge (but suffer a cold proc/drench proc) while standing on Undertow . Whenever Hydroid crouches, Undertow reverts to the exact state it is now (as its really fun to be a creature from the black lagoon).

Another point @mogamu made was that healing effect of Curative Undertow should be a default property of the ability. This offers a wide variety of support for teammates and helps Hydroid's survivability/sustain (which currently holds him back from higher level content). If the augment becomes a default property however, the augment itself must change. To that I introduce you to Refreshing Tides: an augment which replaces Hydroid's heal with a 3 energy per second regen. This augment would allow Hydroid to be one of only 3 frames (currently) to restore energy to allies. This completely alters his role on the battle field to a more supportive one, bandaid's his poor energy pool, and allows Undertow to be active near endlessly. Although some may say that that is game breaking, neither energy siphon nor zenurik can be active during Undertow, almost necessitating the use of efficiency mods. Even at max efficiency the ability still drains 1.07 energy a second (2.07 when using the proposed movement feature) constituting a very small energy return with the proposed augment and still requires the player to be conservative with ability casting. 

 

4. Tentacle Swarm:  

• If enemies are submerged by Undertow when Tentacle Swarm is activated they will take 300% finisher damage, 500% when fully charged.
• When tentacles hit their target there is an initial slam (like the ability does now) but once an enemy is grabbed by a tentacle the tentacle instead constricts the target (akin to Harrow's chains) making them easier to shoot by allies. 

Spoiler

If I cast Tentacle Swarm while I'm Submerged in Undertow you better believe I want my Kraken to eat some people. Finisher damage would feel soooo satisfying in that instance.

A lot of people have been talking about this concept for a long time. The thrashing tentacles are simply too much of a nuisance when you're in a full squad as it makes aiming nearly impossible. I think it would be awesome to have the tentacles thrash a few times (for the effect cause I gotta admit... it is pretty fun to watch enemies ragdoll like crazy) and then constrict around the victim so that allies could kill more efficiently. 

 

The "rework" showed a lot of untapped potential in Hydroid, but potential nonetheless. I really hope DE keeps updating him and listening to the community because it would suck to have a blemish on the streak of consistently decent reworks. As it stands, the frame is better, but I would still say he's a C rank, maybe B- at best. here's to hoping he'll be an A one day! (please write me as much feedback as you can, thanks for reading).

Edited August 11, 2017 by Oni_Spartan4

[(PSN)Croewe]

As stated in the title the passive to my knowledge is the same which people seem to have... forgotten(?) so here's my thought on it.

 

For every 5 seconds an ability is active hydroid spawns a tentacle. Every ability is on a seperate timer so if you use all your at the same time you'll have 3 tentacles spawn every 5 seconds. 

 

His dash spawns one automatically and recasting an ability before it ends will continue the timer.

Edited August 11, 2017 by (PS4)Chris_Robet

[CarrotSalad]

Overall modding hydroid seems very ineffective after these changes because of the range and energy cost changes of his abilities. The range especially on all abilities makes it too ineffective to even consider modding him.

Pressing Shift + W or a,s,d should move hydroid into his own personal undertow that allows him to regenerate energy and evade enemy attacks. (Similar to Limbo rift walk). This is to offset his outrageously low energy pool and energy cost.

Undertow + Tidal surge combination is fun but needs to cover more distance. Maybe make Tidal surge expand the surface range of his other abilities if thier ranges arent increased? At the moment tidal surge is less effective than melee and bullet jumping.

Undertow Moving around with w,a,s,d in this should be faster than normal sprint speed.

Tempest Barrage is still too RNG. This needs to be a constant water jet onto the ground in my opinion. Or some other change that provides a more predictable behaviour for players when they cast it.

Edited August 11, 2017 by CarrotSalad

[Windy_Wind]

Can we have tentacle damage scale like Oberon smite please? like 3% of enemy max health? same for undertow? and Barrage but 1.5%? because at the moment, his damage and the amount of energy spent is absolutely ridiculously bad

[korxysn]

loving the rework, definately cleans up the combat for hydroid. one thing that did catch my attention was the fact that being in undertow and releasing the kraken only centers it on yourself functionally. dunno if it would be good as an augment or as part of the base build, but what about making it so the kraken is cast as part of the undertow? basically while your in undertow, you can cast the ability and the ability is centered on you, but it also moves when you do. so if you use tidal surge to cross the area you bring the kraken with you. just a thought i had when i was testing out the limits of the abilities as they are now. reason i thought of it was i was feeling awesome and going "hey look guys im the kraken!" and then used tidal surge and noticed all my tentacles of doom were left on the other side of the room lol

any rate, once more the rework looks awesome and thank you for it, makes it so im far more likely to use hydroid overall, between its utility increase and the fact i can actually have it stand among my melee frames now due to its defense buff.

[JayKallis02]

hydroid's biggest flaw is his third ability itself, spamming abilites while being slow as anything doesn't help when those abilites do little to no dmg, and are very weak in terms of cc

 

[AleDeVe]

I still have to try him in depth but I can already identify some issues or share those already mentioned:

- His 1 still relies on rng. It would be better if like 50% of the water drops targeted random spots on the AoE and the rest auto-aimed at enemies directly. Or something else; as it is, it's too unreliable. 

- 2 and 3 should be merged together. 

- When moving, enemies in the puddle should stay in the puddle. Puddle should also disable the aura of eximus units and heal hydroid without the augment. The augment would allow healing of enemies and maybe buff range and damage. Even better, since you created the kraken make it appear in the puddle and do something when you use the augment. Base damage is terrible, but it's kinda OK for a cc ability. 

- 4...oh where to start. Great visual rework, although my potato PC is not particularly happy. It would be great if it was not visual, but the Kraken did something. Maybe a roar with some AoE effect. 

- The ultimate (and the frame in general) still cannot scale. In general, it's still the worst of the lot. 

- Please, change the tentacles to not slam enemies everywhere. Rather, make them strangle enemies. This way, you can still aim and shoot at them (a problem shared with Zephyr's tornadoes). 

- The passive is useless. 

 

No offense, but tbh it looks like a cheap and rushed buff rather than a rework. Nothing really changed. I was hoping for much much more. And I really though you would strive for more, since you have to sell those prime packs of the worst frame. 

I really hope you take another, serious look at him. Otherwise, he'll just go back to the wardrobe and be forgotten again. 

 

[WaterWarrior]

I must congratulate the "Hydroid Revisited".I'm always excited by these things. I appreciate that you take into account the players. The things you do to improve the game are notorious.Well, I want to share my ideas about Hydroid(I came up with these ideas before the revisited version(. Hope you understand my English.

 

Passive "Erosion of the Tide": Enemies that take consecutive damage from Hydroid's abilities receive more damage over time.

Spoiler

Foes that take consecutive dmg from Hydroid's abilities receive the next second or the next tick of dmg multiplied by 1.5 over the dmg caused to them the second previous. E.g : a salvo/missile of water of 'TempestBarrage' hits(the explosion) an enemy dealing 150 of dmg if the next second another salvo hits him again the salvo will deal 225 dmg and if another salvo hits him again it will deal 337.5 dmg.The passive benefits all the abilities of Hydroid.

 

1

Tempest Barrage: it is practically the same(include the new mechanics) but every 15 % damage increased by mods or Allies(e.g.warframes) add 1 more missile/salvo per second. E.g: with max 'Intensify'(30% of P.Strengh),'Tempest Barrage' gains 2 more missiles per second.Using 'Narrow Minded' increases the chance of enemies being hit by the explosions repeatedly.

Tidal surge: It's the same(include the new mechanics).It was my idea too of dragging enemies along.The difference is it makes impact dmg instead of magnetic as the wave travel but remains slash as the wave breaks.The current shields(and over-shields) of Hydroid at the time of casting it is multiplied by 200% and added as extra dmg.

 

Undertow: It's the same(include the new mechanics).Hydroid can use his primary and secondary weapon when doing this (1)the range of his puddle is reduced 30%(2)can't pull enemies into the puddle(3) the augment mod won't work(4)the upper half of his body is seen(look like wet)so he's detectable but remains immune, also enemies that enter still drowned.Benefits from the passive even with the extra dmg per second of the revisited version.

 

Tentacle Swarm: It's the same as before the revisited changes but: makes impact dmg instead of magnetic, the finisher dmg remains the same.Cost 50 energy to activate and each tentacle consume 5 energy each time they are triggered.Obviously, energy cost is affected by Efficiency.

 

Spoiler

Within the radius of the marked location, Hydroid set 12 water traps(water traps looks like a puddle).The area/zone of activation of the water traps works as a cylinder(4 m radius and 4 m height). Water traps and marked location area is Affected by P.range. When an enemy enters the volume of the water trap a tentacle spawns and squeezes the enemy. Tentacles stretch to catch the enemy and retract and slowly moves to and fro. This gives the opportunity to melee attack or fire. Every 15 % dmg increased by mods or Allies(e.g.warframes) add 2 water-traps/tentacles.Each tentacle attacks one foe at a time and blocks the auras of his prey.The squared power strength only affects the dmg but not the number of water-traps.Dmg over time benefits from the passive. Visually the tentacles are transparent as Jellyfish flesh but hey have a faded colour of  Hydroid's energy; the base of the tentacle is kind of thick and thins at the end like an octopus's tentacle, it has freckles and suction cups. When a tentacle kills a foe or the time expires it returns to the water-trap.

 

1

1

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by WaterWarrior

[v505bx]

I think everything is pretty good, but I honestly find the clear liquid effects to be kinda lame (I want muh cool-aid colors!) and I find the kraken thingy for his ult ability to be kinda ugly, it needs an option to remove the kraken thingy and just keep the previous tentacles effects that actually sticks with the energy colors instead of just clear liquid. 

[Paradox1903]

Hydroids rework shows that you guys are really listening to the players, It's a step in the right direction. However, hydroids kit is under underutilized for a reason. So I wanted to make some suggestions on what should be done with hydroid. 

First ability:

Far to random, it should be like hydroid is summoning a bunch of small rain droplets, with chance of knockdown effect scaling with power strength. The radius should be increased as well, enough to cover an entire room at full range.. The drawback is that it would take longer to charge to full range, and you wouldn't be able to recast it.

Second ability: 

The synergy between his second and third is a good idea, but this still needs some tweaks to become usable. It should be toggle-able, allowing hydroid to move fast, but not allowing him to undertow or damage enemies. His kraken would step around these limitations.

Third ability.

Should be some kind of waterform, as it stands it's kind of dissapointing.  Half of Hydroids body would turn into water, slowing him down by 50%, not allowing him to run, or roll. It should act like a cross between Ivaras prowl, and valkyrs hysteria. Hydroid would be invincible in this form, with an undertow surrounding his water body, but the more the ability stays active, the more energy it drains. Hydroid would be able to use his weapons and cast abilities in this form.

Fourth ability.

 Hydroid summons an exalted kraken, with the option to assume control of the kraken. Normally the kraken would act own its own, working in a radius around hydroid. But once hydroid controls the kraken, hydroids abilities change. Kraken forms first ability would allow him to summon tentacles, his second ability would be the krakens way of moving, and the third ability would allow the kraken to grab enemies and drag them, dealing small amounts of damage while dragging them. While controlling the kraken, hydroids body fully melts into water, making a very large undertow.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Paradox1903

[GnomeRemover]

When using Tidal Surge while Undertowed you don't bring enemies along with you... They just get left behind... It would be great if you could hoover them all up in to the undertow.

[Senketsu_]

not gonna lie. im dissapointed with this. it feels very lazy. undertow and surge need to be the same power. and the kraken is cool but does absolutely nothing. now hydroid needs a re rework.

[BlueberryIsWar]

Thank you DE, Hydroid seems to be a lot better now and the abilities work together nicely. :) Good job!

[Auron471]

the hydroid rework made him a bit better, but otherwise didnt do too much in my opinion

here are my ideas

Passive: (this was taken from WaterWarrior's Post) "Eroding Tide": Enemies that take consecutive damage from Hydroid's abilities receive more damage over time.

Tempest Barrage: Change the way stats affect this ability and make it so that a set number of barrages will hit a 3m by 3m area every second for the duration of the ability

Duration: More Duration

Range: increase cast range and the aoe of the ability as a whole and the aoe of each blast (the increase of aoe will not negatively effect this ability as the number of shots that hit an area will remain the same. more shots will simply be fired)

Efficiency: normal

Strength: damage and the number of shots that will hit a given area per second

Tidal Surge: allow us to press 2 again to stop it instead of relying on Puddle. otherwise keep it the same

Puddle: Increase the base range and make the movement faster, i would say walking speed maybe?

             Damage: the more enemies in the puddle, the more the damage per second will increase. For example, your build makes it so the damage increases by 25 dmg/s. but you have 10 enemies in the puddle, so therefore the damage would increase by 25 X 10 damage per second.

             Tidal Surge: using this ability should drag the drowning enemies with you so you can just gather of a horde of enemies and do tons of damage to them.

              Augment Idea: Shredding Undertow: every 3rd instance of damage applies a slash proc, and does slash damage, but does not ignores armor(only applies to the slash instance of damage) enemies killed by undertow are cut into nice neat pieces for hydroid's buddy nekros.

Tentacle Swarm: If you are in your puddle while tentacle swarm is active the tentacles will attempt to toss enemies into the puddle.

                      Augment Changes: Enemies killed by hydroid's abilities within 5 seconds of being hit drop extra loot. (the extra loot chance drop slowly decays droping to a 25% chance after 4 seconds. this timer is refreshed if the enemy is hit again)

 

i think the abilities synergize pretty well. what do you guys think?

 

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Auron471

[Ldezzer]

I was thinking about the problem that the allies cant hit enemies in undertow, and i suggest unexpected and fun solution to this : allies can enter and exit undertow.

Its simple : ally enter undertow and kills enemies dragged, but also Hydroid could move around with allies inside his undertow.

When undertow expires all allies are being forced out.

So, what do you all think? Who want take a ride inside undertow? :D

[backto2012]

How about this: allowing Hydroid to perform quick melee attack to the enemies in the undertow.

This ability is quite useful now to grab a bunch of enemies underwater, how about making it more deadly other than a pure CC ability? Now you pull them, you drown them, and you shred them inside the abyss!

Thanks!

Edited August 11, 2017 by backto2012

[RavingRoman]

I've spent some time in the simulacrum giving Hydroids new groove a try. I have to say a lot was gotten right in terms of his survival ability, and how well the synergies work with the use of his undertow is. The visual effects of his abilities are exquisite. However, there are a couple glaring flaws that just cannot be ignored.

Tempest Barrage: So far, continues to work as it should. The charge up, makes the ability decent in low-level situations. My only problem is, why the range nerf?

Undertow: This has been by far the most improved ability. I think this was the main focus of the entire rework. However, for an ability like this; it still lacks in ways that just hurts. The range has been greatly reduce, and still does not perform anything more than a pause button on enemies. The damage is so low, and so is the scaling that is almost pointless as anything beyond level 25 will take far too long to die..... from drowning. The scaling should be higher so it's worth abandoning your team to lay down in a puddle.

Tentacle Swarm: Doesn't feel like it has much changes besides the nerf in range. For the low damage it does, and the small ground it covers.... it just doesn't earn the need to be charging. The problem with this crowd control is that while it does stop enemies from shooting you; like every other ability, it lacks the other thing needed. The ability to finish off your enemies because it's hard to shoot something being flailed around. There is not even enough damage/scale to make up for that.

 

[Darkvramp]

tentacle swarm needs more base range, the puddle needs to keep enemies trapped, and requires way faster scaling damage

[daggerace]

Hi, my personal feedback:

I want to suggest 3 more change to this current rework:

1. make Tempest barrage auto-lock enemies or shoot in a fixed pattern rather than rng (even after the rework this skill is still too inconsistent)

2. disable enemy aura while being inside undertow or grabbed by tentacle swarm (you can't shoot at them or they are difficult to hit, at least we should be able to disable them)

3. convert a percentage of the damage dealt by tentacle swarm into health for hydroid (still too bland for an ultimate, just give some more love) 

 

[YUNoJump]

Sounds fun but what do you actually mean by "inside" undertow? like in a pool of water in the ground, or something else? how are we placed and how are the enemies shown to us in the puddle?

[Auron471]

where would the tentacles spawn? near hydroid? or near the ability aoe zone?

[Koloricsi]

1 minute ago, YUNoJump said:

Sounds fun but what do you actually mean by "inside" undertow? like in a pool of water in the ground, or something else? how are we placed and how are the enemies shown to us in the puddle?

I'd imagine a small box room where enemies are floating or whatnot, all sides have some sort of water texture or whatnot.

[Auron471]

seems like it would be disorienting when you left the box. also how would we get in? i dont want hydroid to become another limbo... the most annoying frame in the game #EndLimbo

[ElectricProdigy]

1st I like. second makes no sense, third is rediculous, forth is just stupid.