[Update 21.4.0] Hydroid Revisited Feedback

[Chchchchancho]

Initial thoughts are that I like it, and my only major complaint is that I can't have pink tentacles anymore.

[Larcerus]

souw... i LOVE how his 2&3 now work BUT...the Charge for his 1 & 4 is total crap...even with the boost Hydroid is not tanky enough to jsut stand there and charge an ability...and without the charge the area of his 1&4 are a joke...

[Aenris]

Okay! brought Hydroid to the sortie today. I have a couple of formas on him, i used him a lot a couple of months ago so i was able to test a couple of things:


1)His stats buffs gave me a nice survivability! so glad this was changed!

2)The barrage (still) takes an awful time to cast, even with natural talent and speed drift equipped. I'd rather have this time reduced, since we have a charged version time, with twice as long cast time
Also, perhaps this is just me, but not having an animation or sound for the charged _Barrage makes me feel like i'm not casting it.

3)The tidal surge doesn't seem to "drag enemies along the ride". Most of the time they are proned in the ground, in the same spot they were when i passed by. Sometimes they are dragged, but for a couple of metters. It's unreliable.

4)Same for the wave + undertow. I wanted to be a water-ground-shark and drag everybody with me, then cast tentacles. I can't. Enemies doesn't seem to stay trapped in me when i move the puddle.
 
The tentacles tapping enemies within me is a great feature!  but somehow  i feel like the response isn't fast enough. I'd like to spam a hell lot of clicks in quick succesion and drag every enemy in the map with me (since the wave won't take them along) But i don't seem to be able to

also, i get the "invalid target" message like, 90% of the time. I don't know why.

5)The tentacle swarm changes are really nice! now i can concentrate them better. A whole lot better. It has two problems tho:

a) Has a long casting time, specially having a charged version (basically the same problem in barrage)

b) I'd love to see them constricting enemies rather than slamming violently. It's annoying for my teammates. Unless they come with their favourite grenade launchers or Lenz, they won't be hitting anything. We need a way for the tentacles allowing players to hit trapped enemies, if not, everybody is gonna start asking their hydroids to not cast tentacle swarm.

(Except for Mesa. I don't think Mesa cares about  this)

6)Hydroid needs a bigger energy pool. With this much energy, he is basically a caster frame now, he can't live with just 150 energy. It's the same case as oberon, or mag.

So far i'm liking the changes. I think they need more polish tho. Also, i feel Primed Flow and Natural talent are """obligatory""" mods. I know you can play without them, but it's not fun. And i believe reworks are made to make Warframes viable AND fun.

That's it. Thanks DE for giving Hydroid a chance.

[knighthawke]

Admittedly I have not dug too deep into the rework but a first impression overall is that the changes seem pretty good however there is one glaring omission.  His passive was not even changed a little?  C'mon guys you all over there at DE I know are smart people so I know you are all fully aware that his passive is not worth the pixels its printed on.  Who knows maybe the new tentacle AI makes it worth something, as previously mentioned I have not really explored the changes that thoroughly. I feel with relative certainty that you could make his passive chance 100% and it would still be fairly underwhelming but if it were then players could at least know they would get a tentacle in the very niche situations where it would seem beneficial.  In the end I do believe he should get an entirely new passive, perhaps something like his abilities have a chance to proc cold status since the ocean is cold and to further push the CC role that it seems you're trying to develop for him.  Lastly as a side note nit pick,  I do wish the Kraken head did something more substantial other than look cool but either way its a neat addition.

TLDR: Changes seem pretty good. He should get a new passive or at the very least make his current passive guaranteed.

Edited August 10, 2017 by knighthawke

[Firework64]

bad but not terrible

Edited August 10, 2017 by Firework64
mistake

[Darkvramp]

Why do we need to charge for more damage and duration just give us more damage and duration.

[DustyFlash]

1st ability: It hasn't been changed at all and it was simply nerfed by adding a charge time wich increases how many and how often the projectiles appear, before the rework this was instant and didn't cost 2x the energy.

For this ability I'd like for the charge to be removed and for the projectiles to appear a lot more often, and to be more likely to hit enemies rather than splash as an aoe.

2nd ability:

It is very nice that we can drag enemies around but it would have been nicer if we could make turns while using it rather than going in a straight line.

3rd ability:

It is welcome to make this ability actually usefull howewer making it synergize with other abilities was a bad idea, as the drain and the inability to gain energy while submerged makes it very hard to sustain yourself and cast abilities at the same time.

 The ability undertow can't drag enemies around as you move and the drain/metter is way to high and way to slow.

The "scaling" is welcome however it is extremely inefficient (although it bypasses armor) since you can't drag enemies as you move in undertow (not the click drag) you also can't keep drowning them, the scaling of the drown should honestly be % based rather than +X number every 1 second for each individual seperately, as the ability has no type of insane range that could wipe out entire maps and honestly should be % based scaling.

4th ability:

Number of Tentacles is still unaffected by power stregth wich is a bit of an issue, the pure armor bypass is very welcome however, and the same for adjusting the range.

Only issue I have is that the creature only stays for a few seconds, I'd like for the creature to stay for the duration of tentacle swarm.

Also two more things outside the abilities:

Passive: Change it, nobody slams attack unless they are playing conclave.

And Finnaly please PBR regular hydroid, the extremely oily look is very hatred by a huge number of people from the community. (As well as the immortal is pbr-ed while the helmets outside of tennogen aren't)

Edited August 10, 2017 by DustyFlash
2nd ability while using undertow was bugged for me and wouldn't go very far.

[thegreatersea]

Just now, Darkvramp said:

Why do we need to charge for more damage and duration just give us more damage and duration.

^ Absolutely this. As far as I know, Hydroid is the only frame at the moment that has to do this.

[QueQool]

I was hoping for much much much more love for hydroid :(

 

[Kaotyke]

I have a new pet... Why doesnt he stay for the whole duration!

DE, please make the Kraken stay for the whole Swarm duration or make it swim around the puddle! Its so CUTE!

[Squakbox]

The only major issue I see is that tentacle swarm is very compact and localized. I'd like to see a wider range to grab more mobs.

Otherwise great revsit

[tnccs215]

Mh... I fiddled a little bit with him. 

Preemptive feedback? His rework might be a bit.... Problematic. 

Mainly, it encourages a gameplay focused on keeping yourself in the puddle, and working from there... Without any risks. Energy cost to move,  tentacle swarm spawning on top of it, and above everything else, the range nerf serve as balancing measures, but still... It'll take a bit more testing to give a proper feedback. 

However, I can say this: Tempest Barrage is still plagued by its excessive RNG and collision. 

 

[Edit]: the base range's of all abilities are rather generous, which further limit the afk use of Undertow. That's a rather nice change: yes, you can be a puddle, but you'll have to be an active puddle. might be better than I originally thought.

Indeed, I can already hypothesize a playstyle: use Tidal Surge and Undertow to group enemies, proceed to cast Tentacle swarm to damage those enemies (since Tentacle swarm cast on undertow has bonus damage), and use non-undertow tentacle Swarm and tempest barrage for general CC. Maybe not bad.

His energy economy is terrible though, maybe intended to cover mod slots? We'll see how this develops

[EDIT 2]: Played a lot more with him. Although his CC and low-mid level damage both improved, we still face two issues:

1 - With Tentacle swarm having a minimum cost equal to Tempest Barrage's maximum cost, the already present redundancy between these two abilities was not only left unfixed, but was indeed aggravated. Truth is, being both abilities RNG- based CC abilities with non-scaling damage capabilities, the similarities are still too much for us not to simply use the best of the two (i.e. Tentacle Swarm) all the time. It is true that Tempest Barrage can be casted in several places simultaneously.... however, it's base duration is also so small one's probably better off simply recasting tentacle swarm. We need something to differentiate these two abilities further if we want both to be useful.

2 - he has borderline no damage scaling. Taking into account how unreliable his CC is by design, and the existence of various damage bonus and interactions between all abilities, it stands to reason that Hydroid is probably both meant to damage and CC in good amounts - and therefore that he should get a buff to his scaling damage.

With these things in mind, I think that making Tempest Barrage deal base damage + % enemy health is a good solution for both issues. On one hand, it differentiates Tentacle Swarm from Tempest Barrage: where one has superior CC and finisher type damage, the other has scaling damage capabilities. On the other, it grants Hydroid exactly what he lacks: scaling damage.

This is my take on it, at least.

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by tnccs215

[Darkvramp]

HE COST WAY TOO MUCH ENERGY FOR TOO LITTLE EFFECT. WHY?

[Blacque]

Oh man as an admitted old man, I am always incredibly impressed with how fast people can crap on things.  Either way here is my critique of the current Hydroid situation.

I ran with him with a slapped together build just to get an idea of how he played.  I went over 30 minutes in Selkie with only a few close calls.  Vaykor Hek and some Life strike solved that issue.  I'll post my build in summary but I was pretty interested in the changes thus far.  I haven't really seen the intricate details of each of the abilities which made me think of something.  Can we have the actual direct ability damage types listed in the Abilities section of the arsenal?  Having the damage type would help a bit.  Now on to the actual critique.

I was one of the few players who really enjoyed his first ability I suppose.  I always loved the impact of it, but the rng of it can be a bit of a chore.  This time around the flexibility of charging it for a gain is helpful, however without knowing the increase of damage that you get I'm not certain if it's worth it.  Is it simply impact damage?  These details would be very helpful for all Warframes even if it is obxious (Ember, Volt, Frost), for the more nebulously powered frames like Hydroid, Limbo, etc.  So far I have no real issue with the first ability and like the option to charge.  I would just ask for more knowledge about it like how much energy it costs, how much more damage, range etc are you getting.  Options to tinker with individual power damage types, duration, range would be a dream come true, so that you could specialize.  A shorter range, duration on one ability without it hampering another.  However, that's something for another time.

Tidal Surge: I am very much a fan of this and once more always have been (Odd because I rarely used Hydroid but that'll come in a bit too as to why,) Tidal Surging through a rocket and Bombard without taking damage is very satisfying.  Its synergy with the Undertow ability is also quite nice.  Also what damage type is this?  I think it would be more helpful to have this in the game rather than having to head over to the wiki.

Undertow changes I approve of.  The mobility unfortunately is what I feared but with your ability to Tidal Surge it's no big deal.  Ideally movement in Undertow would be slightly slower than walking normally and upon running would be marginally slower.  However, given that you can cast while in Undertow I'm not going to complain.  I think people may be overlooking that being invulnerable while doing damage and also casting other abilities is quite nice (Ala Valkyr).  So I can easily accept the mobility limitation but would only suggest some directional control for Tidal Surge so that changing directions could be achieved.  I feel very inelegant Tidal Surging into walls. 

Tentacle Swarm looks amazing as do all of the water effects and it looks and feels powerful.  I've yet to see the Kraken itself but I'll be hunting for it with some excitement.  A chum in group said that the tentacles were purpusefully slamming the enemies into Undertow.  It seemed more like a coincidence to me however, it this is the case and tentacles will actively seek out enemies and then try to drag them down that's very very cool and I like it.  Also once more what damage are we dealing?  Is it still (Ugh) magnetic?  Again, is it worth charging this ability?

Armor gain and shield gain are nice, I went for armor with Steel Fiber and I actually decided to slap a Rage on and it worked out well enough.  I'll be heading into MOT next for another little stress test.

Over all I think the changes are good.  My suggestions would be to smooth out the animation lock that happens consistently with Undertow.  The fluid nature of Warframe is felt very well with some of Hydroid's abilities and is jarring with others.  One of them is the freedom of motion in charging and casting both his 1 and his 4, only to feel a sudden stop to unleash the abilities.  Allow for the casting as well and nix the lock in motion to keep the flow.  I like to advance and leave behind barrage as I find cover or maneuver.  The sudden stop makes this very difficult.

With Undertow you hit the button and cannot cast again until the animation is complete.  Once the ability is activated please allow for casting.  This is to add more fluidity to Tidal Wave into Tidal Surge.  So far it's cast 3 and then wait until the puddle is flat, then you can cast and it's jarring to once more be stopped from an otherwise flowing ability set.

Passive: I forget about Hydroid's passive which is unfortunate.  I can understand the dislike of it.  My suggestion for Hydroid's undertow is actually a synergy with his theme.  I'm a fan of specific Warframe abilities and themes.  Hydroid is water and that's awesome and feels very strong.  I'd like to see enemies that are wet, waterlogged, or under some sort of moderate status provide a health/energy gain to the target who kills them.  It doesn't have to be big, but given what he does it could be useful for not only himself but for the team.  Soaking wet, water logged enemies taken out providing a bit of a bonus.  It may be a bit complex but it would be wonderful.  My other suggestion for a passive would simply be putting the Kraken to use.  When enemies are devoured by the Kraken via his #4 Hydroid gains a bit of energy back.  This WOULD rely upon kills from the ability which may hurt it in higher tiers but it's just an idea.

 

So far I love it and it felt fun to play Hydroid.  My biggest issue with him was that he was less water frame and more watery paper.  He feels more durable and more powerful, please keep up the great work!  Very very grateful for the changes.  Further testing is coming but so far these are my first impressions.  My build was:  Rejuvation(Aura) Exilus locked reserved for the primed variant.  Intensify, Steel Fiber, Streamline, STretch, Primed Flow, Primed Continuity, Vitality, Rage.  All maxed. 

Questions comments critiques as always welcome!

[Kaotyke]

6 minutes ago, Larcerus said:

souw... i LOVE how his 2&3 now work BUT...the Charge for his 1 & 4 is total crap...even with the boost Hydroid is not tanky enough to jsut stand there and charge an ability...and without the charge the area of his 1&4 are a joke...

He can move while charging the abilities.

[Troll_Logic]

2 minutes ago, DustyFlash said:

Only issue I have is that the creature only stays for a few seconds, I'd like for the creature to stay for the duration of tentacle swarm.

 

2 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

I have a new pet... Why doesnt he stay for the whole duration!

DE, please make the Kraken stay for the whole Swarm duration or make it swim around the puddle! Its so CUTE!

Are you guys only seeing the kraken's nose for a few seconds as well?  Is that all he does?

[Kaotyke]

Just now, Troll_Logic said:

 

Are you guys only seeing the kraken's nose for a few seconds as well?  Is that all he does?

Its visual only it seems.

[heisthex]

I am not sure why the range need to be cut so low, adding range mod just doesn't seem benefits anymore because his range are gutted too much, that 250 range only add so little.

[Blacque]

Completely forgot to add something to my post so I'll just add it here. 

 

Can we allow for the charge on his 4th ability to be toggled?  Holding down 4 while doing anything else is actually kind of difficult.  I don't plan on simply casting it while in a puddle all of the time.  Just a tap and then another tap to release would be greatly appreciated!

[Argantonio]

I would love if when you make a build with more range the kraken get bigger cause right now i test it and i feel so sad :(

[Troll_Logic]

1 minute ago, Kaotyke said:

Its visual only it seems.

That certainly blows.  At least bring his head and neck up.

[PsiWarp]

2 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

I have a new pet... Why doesnt he stay for the whole duration!

DE, please make the Kraken stay for the whole Swarm duration or make it swim around the puddle! Its so CUTE!

Yeah too bad it was purely cosmetic. I mean it could be so much more as an actual summon!

For example, let it actually swim around Tentacle Swarm's tentacle spawn radius. If tentacles aren't picking up enemies when they first spawned, have them re-emerge around the Kraken as it swims around with enemies coming near. If tentacles are destroyed by Nullifier bubbles, have the kraken try to avoid it and respawn tentacles that got nullified.

[S.Dust]

Don't own the frame but from what I read and can see he can't scale well he won't be good against higher level enemies or even just lvl 50s you made a pure damage frame with not armor striping or status effects to help itself out.

[Stoner]

From ~30 to 6 meters at max range... Can you please revert this? I feel like this is extremely low range compared to the previous Undertow, even when you can pull enemies in. 

[chofranc]

Hi, i'm a main hydroid and i tested him and now is amazing, i didn't need to change my build and still is op, now its have more area denial than before and can face high lvl enemies easily, his survivability has increased a lot. With corroding barrage you can kill lvl150 enemies and remove their armors easily. I tested it with my bombardment build(full range, max efficiency, 110% duration and 85% strength(negative strength)). His kit isn't designed to do tons of damage like other frames but this changes make him more fun and useful than before.