THE BEST REWORK FOR RHINO HANDS DOWN!!!

[True_Naeblis]

There are other rework ideas I like much better, the ones presented by the OP are all over the place and often too much. What would be worthwhile:

• An improvement to base armor, both to improve Iron Skin and to make it so that Rhino isn't dead when kissed by a bullet in higher content; really doesn't make sense that Valkyr can take so much more than he can outside of invulnerability phases, and it's clear that this is only due to his age and never getting tweaked.
• An improvement to base energy; again as an older Prime frame he's simply been left behind in this category.
• Being able to recast Iron Skin without an augment. QoL that most players seem to agree on. Having to wait and become vulnerable in the middle of taking hits is poor design.
• Charge being a ticking ability that is slower initially, ramps up in speed, and continues stacking Ironclad Charge bonuses when the augment is equipped. It should continuously burn energy as long as it's on, and should start with 2x damage and build to 4x at top speed.
• If the current passive is kept, changing it to a guaranteed knock down so that enemies are vulnerable and open to finishers.

A set of tweaks to get him into a better place to do what he does, rather than making him ridiculously over powered and easy to cheese rather than requiring that he's played correctly.

[Dohako]

45 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

Excuse you?
Did you even READ everything I typed?
If this were to be implemented, my rhino build would be ASTRONOMICALLY BETTER.
A PERMANENT 97.5% SLOW ON ENEMIES? WHO WOULD NEED TO PLAY NOVA?
20% ADDITIVE CRIT CHANCE ON WEAPONS LIKE LENZ, SOMA, DREAD?

Yes I did read everything you typed and everything you said was "NO TO THIS NO TO THAT" without any logical reason.

Nova didn't ask to be brought into this conversation but everyone that enjoy playing nova will play nova.

20% ADDITIVE CRIT CHANCE ON WEAPONS LIKE LENZ, SOMA, DREAD? Harrow is laughing at you right now thinking this is a big deal.

46 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

He really doesn't need to state anything more. Rhino is perfectly fine where he is. The only conflict he has is his passive not exactly making sense on him. Otherwise he is 100% fine exactly where he is. All his abilities are used very VERY often.

I wasn't talking to you in this conversation and I'm pretty sure this player is capable enough to speak for him or herself tyvm. And the reason all his abilites is because of FORCED SYNGERY that is a huge problem in warframe. Their not used independently of each other and than have some synergy. People are actually arguing the fact that rhino is in a good stop with the extra work you got to do to achieve a decent ironskin value.

46 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

Rhino's roar augment is piercing roar, that's already armor shredding enough- and Harrow is a tactical support for gunplay, rhino is a hyper offensive CC. 20% crit and status is not needed to make his roar better whatsoever. This is incredibly busted because nobody would play anything BUT harrow and rhino duos.

Puncture proc is 30% less damage dealt by enemy. If an enemy deals 100 damage and gets hit with a puncture proc that enemy now deals 70 damage. Once again stop speaking for other people. People like what they like enough is enough.

[-N7-Leonhart]

3 hours ago, Dohako said:

How is it better? Because it would last longer? 50% damage bonus changed into 20% crit and 20% status and capped at 25% for both???

Harrow 50% additive crit and 200% additive crit for headshots.

it may last longer on rhino but enemies die much quicker with harrow.

You forget that Roar applies damage to everything there is: other frame powers, companions, guns etc. For example, some powers may not even have the concept of critical hit. For most other powers, 20% more crit just means 20% more total damage, since only 2x dmg multiplier. If you want to remove the raw damage (which is perfect across the board), 20% crit won't cut it, at all.

Edited August 15, 2017 by -N7-Leonhart

[RikerWatts]

Quote

 

Yes I did read everything you typed and everything you said was "NO TO THIS NO TO THAT" without any logical reason.

Nova didn't ask to be brought into this conversation but everyone that enjoy playing nova will play nova.

20% ADDITIVE CRIT CHANCE ON WEAPONS LIKE LENZ, SOMA, DREAD? Harrow is laughing at you right now thinking this is a big deal.

I wasn't talking to you in this conversation and I'm pretty sure this player is capable enough to speak for him or herself tyvm. And the reason all his abilites is because of FORCED SYNGERY that is a huge problem in warframe. Their not used independently of each other and than have some synergy. People are actually arguing the fact that rhino is in a good stop with the extra work you got to do to achieve a decent ironskin value.

Puncture proc is 30% less damage dealt by enemy. If an enemy deals 100 damage and gets hit with a puncture proc that enemy now deals 70 damage. Once again stop speaking for other people. People like what they like enough is enough.

 

I am freely allowed to speak for other people when you deem your obtusely obscene, broken as all F*** idea as the best thing ever. You should expect heavy critique ESPECIALLY when you come across as condescending.
Do you even know how SLOW 97.5% from BASE is? For fire rate, a supra could shoot one shot every three seconds, the gorgon units with their gun spooled up once every five. Their movement? Hindered to be a damn near stop. Their attacks? So slow that you could barely see the animation coming through.
Nobody would play Slowva when the slow you want for rhino is so obscene that it negates existences.
Nobody would play Limbo since you can have the same effect of stasis from one ability
No one would bother using Vauban since a stomp could just slow the hell out of everything AFTER the sheer knockup duration CC.
You say I have no logical reason, that's a fault of your own if you don't read what I wrote.

On the topic of your passive, I stated:

19 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

Red flag immediately, invulnerability is finicky and we have several frames that do this, Rhino is _included_ in this pool. His Iron skin negates all damage to a separate pool which, if you look at his health bar upon cast, is grayed in the invincibility period, just like harrow's 4. 
alternatively his passive needs to be altered from what it is right now (which is just heavy impact) to one I call "Rhino's stampede"
When rhino sprints he slowly ramps up sprint speed to an additional .50 to sprint speed, stomping firmly and after 5 consecutive seconds he is unable to be knocked up or down from his charge.
This makes sense thematically and also ability wise, as rhinos are not known to jump and fall to make an impact, he also looks and physically acts like an american football player.

Highlighted in red and bolded is a logical response to why your passive is obscene, and I can add to this: People can build (with your implementation) raw health, raw armor, blind rage, and quick thinking to- by RNG standard of 10%- become more tanky than INAROS solely based on invincibility. Absolutely obscene idea to give him random on-damaged invulnerability.

 

On the topic of his charge, I stated:

19 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

Too large of a buff. Much too large. 350 damage is far _far_ too much in terms of %strength scaling on a first ability, especially one so quick and easily spammable. Blast is not needed, he knocks down enemies super hard with his charge in a ragdoll.

HIghlighted in red and bolded is a logical response. Because going from 650 to 1,000 base damage makes the %power scaling insanely high and creates much MUCH more issues down the line in terms of balancing. They would have to buff enemies in order to make rhino less of a pubstomper.


On the topic of his roar, I stated:

19 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

No additonal stats should be added to roar. It is a massive strength buff as it is, and power strength is great on any frame to have. (Loki minorly excluded) His roar has no problems and need no additional buffs. Additive crit and status is broken as hell.

Highlighted in red and bolded is a logical response to your roar. Removing the 50% damage in subsitute for something that only affects firearms? Logically, how does a sonorous warcry against the hundreds make your guns do better? An instant 20% crit chance additive to any weapon is obscene, and you did state that "Harrow is laughing" when harrow's requires:
People to be close enough to be hit by the ult range
People to receive a threshold of damage for it to work
Meshes well with his supportive playstyle
Makes sense and is mitigated by the long duration between the next time that crit is applied, making it possible to only get 10% crit from it.

This suggestion to roar doesn't only conflict with thematics, but also is very VERY quick and can last as long as sixty seconds with some basic duration mods.
This argument can partially apply to the fear you suggested "For the duration of the ability.". It can reach sixty seconds.

On the topic of his stomp, I stated:

19 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

No no no no thousand times no. permanent decrease to fire rate, attack speed AND movement speed by nearly 100% is like a a frost bubble that is 890% range.

Highlighted in red and bolded is a very quick logical response to your (and I have to say the MOST) abhorrently objectable idea on his stomp. So since it was not apparent to you that a 97.5% nerf is, in fact, insanity: let's point out some frames that bear severe obsolescence when compared to this buff.

Nova would never be used for high strength when rhino's slow is 22.5% MORE POWERFUL than high STR nova.
Limbo wouldn't be needed to stasis cataclysm when rhino's rank 5 slow can reach just as far and is more effective in the long run for hindering enemies, thus making your chances for death (and the possibility of challenge in a game where we are already practically gods) next to nil.
Vauban wouldn't be needed when his bastille and vortex has duration on it. Rhino's stomp you want? "Permanent 97.5% slow" keyword is PERMANENT.
Frost's avalanche would bear less usability for its CC since enemies thaw out.
Ember's augmented knockdown not needed, Rhino's ult does that AND MORE!
Loki's ult won't even be needed. Why disarm a giant group of enemies when you can slow them movement-wise by 97.5% AND hinder their fire rate to a hilariously slow amount?

I could go ON about it. This ult you want is ludicrous, outrageous, insanity, extremely broken as hell.
If MY rhino build got YOUR rework, he would be outright the BEST FRAME in the game. AND YOU CAN GET RHINO OFF THE FIRST STAR CHART BOSS IN THE GAME.


On the topic of his stomp augment, I stated:

19 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

This would become an essential mod when combined with CP. one CP and this augment means nobody else needs CP in raids (aside JV) and makes sorties even EASIER. Endless would be a joke.

Highlighted in red is a logical counter to your suggestion for 70% armor strip while enemies are in the air affected by his ult. Rhino's ult is:
Low cost
High range
Easily made to be high duration

Combine this with that augment, your stomp suggestion, and one, read carefully; ONE CORROSIVE PROJECTION would cause everyone to NEVER NEED any more CP, his stomp would be the end all be all. He would be the GOD frame. NOTHING could contest that. It would be game over. Make the game incredibly easy on endless.


Again, in conclusion: this "Best rework for rhino hands down." has to be the worst idea I have read for any changes on a frame in my entire life. Nothing you brought suggested changes with balance in it. It is all overpowered as hell and makes almost every other frame obsolete.

Edited August 15, 2017 by RikerWatts
forums sometimes suck at letting me write

[MirageKnight]

Disclaimer: Rhino / Rhino Prime used to be my mains.

Now with that out of the way, I firm believe that Rhino does not in any way shape or form "need" a rework, just because a few vocal players find him boring to play with. If you think he's boring, just...I dunno...play another 'Frame that's more "interesting" I guess?

OP, Rhino as he is now is obviously not your thing, but a lot of players like him pretty much as is or only feel he needs a couple of tweaks. He's definitely not weak or lacking in terms of utility though.

First, he's pretty tanky thanks to his decent armor, really heavy shields, and Iron Skin. There's only a handful of 'Frames that can really soak damage and Rhino's definitely in that group.

Second, he's got great CC, being able to disrupt, bust through, and stun mobs.

Third, he can outright buff all damage done by himself and allies.

Yeah, he's a simple 'Frame...so what's wrong with that? He's great at what he's supposed to and that's spearhead an attack: His stats and abilities allow him to soak damage, punch through the enemy's forward elements and break the effectiveness of a mob's massed firepower while increasing the team's effectiveness in battle.  Not every 'Frame has to require moderate skill and careful timing to be good. He's crude and simple...and he's very effective when used and modded right.

If anything, I'd buff his base armor to 225 (300 for Rhino Prime), allow Roar to draw agro as long as it's active, have his 1 and 4 scale a little better in terms of damage, and change his passive to something a little more interesting. For his passive, maybe grant an attack speed bonus when using Hammer, Heavy Blade, and Sword and Shield melee weapons. Other than these few things to make him shine a little bit more, Rhino is, honestly, quite fine as he stands right now. 

There's an old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Rhino is not broken and therefore doesn't need to be "fixed". Tweaked maybe, but not "fixed" (read "reworked").

 

On a side note...what is with this manic need to rework everything these days? It's getting a bit out of hand. It's like people don't know that even a few stat changes and/or a slight change in how something works can make things better than before without the need for a ton of effort.

[low1991]

Put content of ridiculous rework. Claim it's the best rework for rhino, and a self-claim at that, that he/she even put it's that this rework is won with his/her hands down.

[Dohako]

4 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

I am freely allowed to speak for other people when you deem your obtusely obscene, broken as all F*** idea as the best thing ever. You should expect heavy critique ESPECIALLY when you come across as condescending.
Do you even know how SLOW 97.5% from BASE is? For fire rate, a supra could shoot one shot every three seconds, the gorgon units with their gun spooled up once every five. Their movement? Hindered to be a damn near stop. Their attacks? So slow that you could barely see the animation coming through.
Nobody would play Slowva when the slow you want for rhino is so obscene that it negates existences.
Nobody would play Limbo since you can have the same effect of stasis from one ability
No one would bother using Vauban since a stomp could just slow the hell out of everything AFTER the sheer knockup duration CC.
You say I have no logical reason, that's a fault of your own if you don't read what I wrote.

No you are not allowed to speak for other people. It was that player who made a comment and you defending them. You the assume I was be condescending but you were being rude and butting in on another conservation that didn't have anything to do with you. It's called staying in your lane or minding your own business. That's something you tell a child when he or she is in adult business. If that what you meant as me being condescending then you are absolutely right but do know you are referring to yourself as child which I don't you are but I could be wrong.

Now let's continue Everyone would still play those frames because people have their playstyle I already stated this berfore.

 

4 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

Highlighted in red and bolded is a logical response to why your passive is obscene, and I can add to this: People can build (with your implementation) raw health, raw armor, blind rage, and quick thinking to- by RNG standard of 10%- become more tanky than INAROS solely based on invincibility. Absolutely obscene idea to give him random on-damaged invulnerability.

I get the raw health and raw armor part to an EXTENT, because the passive suggested helps out with rhino's ability to survive. Blind rage is a power strength mod unless you meant Rage? Anyways the Rage and QT combo has been patch/nerf a long time ago so that wouldn't be effective on any frame relying on that combo alone. QT is a very faulty mod there has been some players reporting about it not working at times, so I wouldn't think of equipping that mod on any frame without a guarantee it would work. QT if I'm not mistaken actually transfer your total armor value to your warframe's energy pool. E.G. Loki has a 65 armor value to protect his 700+ energy pool. Which is leading to the reports from players stating it don't work but actually getting hit so hard the game decided not to take away your energy to protect the warframe from the massive hit/one-shot. QT gives a guaranteed stunlock/stagger effect to your warframe. Rhino has a small health pool to begin and giving him some breaks in between so he won't die to quickly isn't a bad idea and his also take some of the pressure off of ironskin. Comparing this suggests to Inaros as being MORE TANKY is obscure.

 

5 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

HIghlighted in red and bolded is a logical response. Because going from 650 to 1,000 base damage makes the %power scaling insanely high and creates much MUCH more issues down the line in terms of balancing. They would have to buff enemies in order to make rhino less of a pubstomper.

I still don't see how DE would have to buff the enemies on this particular issue. At max rhino charge would reach 5000 blast damage per cast but damage falls off quickly. Hey I'll change it for you to nerfing it to 500 blast damage. I'm more concern about the augment being implemented +10 combo window and status duration would be nice addition. I would say check out a youtuber name distant observer and his frost + galatine prime video.

 

5 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

Highlighted in red and bolded is a logical response to your roar. Removing the 50% damage in subsitute for something that only affects firearms? Logically, how does a sonorous warcry against the hundreds make your guns do better? An instant 20% crit chance additive to any weapon is obscene, and you did state that "Harrow is laughing" when harrow's requires:
People to be close enough to be hit by the ult range
People to receive a threshold of damage for it to work
Meshes well with his supportive playstyle
Makes sense and is mitigated by the long duration between the next time that crit is applied, making it possible to only get 10% crit from it.

This suggestion to roar doesn't only conflict with thematics, but also is very VERY quick and can last as long as sixty seconds with some basic duration mods.
This argument can partially apply to the fear you suggested "For the duration of the ability.". It can reach sixty seconds.

Harrow is Laughing FYI. Harrow's ult has a 50m radius that can be increased by Disciplined Approach Varazin Focus school by 17m=67m total. The threshold of damage you are talking about is only 2000 damage needed to received the entire buff which easily achievable plus you can increase the Duration on his invulnerability for covenant but not rhino's ironskin. And the last part about something "MAKING SENSE" doesn't make much sense at all. You use this word thematics and I'm having trouble understanding the context you are putting it in. Do you mean relating to the ninja-based game? If so, you wouldn'tdisagree that some warframes aren't ninjas. Or you are relating to the warframe rhino himself? If so, you can't conform him strictly to an animal. If its the latter then I don't see too many people playing a warframe that is immune to everything but at the same time have 99% fire rate/movement speed. 20% crit and 20% status could also provide stat boost to everything(weapons,companions, warframe abilities and etc) THAT ARE effected by crit and status ONLY. 

 

6 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

Highlighted in red and bolded is a very quick logical response to your (and I have to say the MOST) abhorrently objectable idea on his stomp. So since it was not apparent to you that a 97.5% nerf is, in fact, insanity: let's point out some frames that bear severe obsolescence when compared to this buff.

Nova would never be used for high strength when rhino's slow is 22.5% MORE POWERFUL than high STR nova.
Limbo wouldn't be needed to stasis cataclysm when rhino's rank 5 slow can reach just as far and is more effective in the long run for hindering enemies, thus making your chances for death (and the possibility of challenge in a game where we are already practically gods) next to nil.
Vauban wouldn't be needed when his bastille and vortex has duration on it. Rhino's stomp you want? "Permanent 97.5% slow" keyword is PERMANENT.
Frost's avalanche would bear less usability for its CC since enemies thaw out.
Ember's augmented knockdown not needed, Rhino's ult does that AND MORE!
Loki's ult won't even be needed. Why disarm a giant group of enemies when you can slow them movement-wise by 97.5% AND hinder their fire rate to a hilariously slow amount?

I could go ON about it. This ult you want is ludicrous, outrageous, insanity, extremely broken as hell.
If MY rhino build got YOUR rework, he would be outright the BEST FRAME in the game. AND YOU CAN GET RHINO OFF THE FIRST STAR CHART BOSS IN THE GAME.
 

Ok, fine I'll decrease that as well to 75% unaffected by power strength but stays permanent. Nekros can achieve 100% enemy slow movement speed. 

 

6 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

Highlighted in red is a logical counter to your suggestion for 70% armor strip while enemies are in the air affected by his ult. Rhino's ult is:
Low cost
High range
Easily made to be high duration

Combine this with that augment, your stomp suggestion, and one, read carefully; ONE CORROSIVE PROJECTION would cause everyone to NEVER NEED any more CP, his stomp would be the end all be all. He would be the GOD frame. NOTHING could contest that. It would be game over. Make the game incredibly easy on endless.


Again, in conclusion: this "Best rework for rhino hands down." has to be the worst idea I have read for any changes on a frame in my entire life. Nothing you brought suggested changes with balance in it. It is all overpowered as hell and makes almost every other frame obsolete.

My counter arguments: Ash's seeking shuriken(week argument) and fatal teleport with CL, Inaros desiccation with CL, Excalibur Radial Blind with CL, Oberon, Trinity and other warframes' cheese that can do solo and team runs without CP to annihilate the enemies. One again I strongly suggest you check out distant observer youtube channel you will not be disappointed.

In conclusion This is the best rework for rhino hands down because no one else can come up with better suggestions than me. That's not me being braggadocios or overly/extremely boastful. It's the truth until someone comes with a better one this will be it HANDS DOWN!!! 

 

[Dohako]

51 minutes ago, low1991 said:

Put content of ridiculous rework. Claim it's the best rework for rhino, and a self-claim at that, that he/she even put it's that this rework is won with his/her hands down.

You don't have one better... so it is until you show there is one better.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Dohako

[Dohako]

6 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Disclaimer: Rhino / Rhino Prime used to be my mains.

Now with that out of the way, I firm believe that Rhino does not in any way shape or form "need" a rework, just because a few vocal players find him boring to play with. If you think he's boring, just...I dunno...play another 'Frame that's more "interesting" I guess?

OP, Rhino as he is now is obviously not your thing, but a lot of players like him pretty much as is or only feel he needs a couple of tweaks. He's definitely not weak or lacking in terms of utility though.

First, he's pretty tanky thanks to his decent armor, really heavy shields, and Iron Skin. There's only a handful of 'Frames that can really soak damage and Rhino's definitely in that group.

Second, he's got great CC, being able to disrupt, bust through, and stun mobs.

Third, he can outright buff all damage done by himself and allies.

Yeah, he's a simple 'Frame...so what's wrong with that? He's great at what he's supposed to and that's spearhead an attack: His stats and abilities allow him to soak damage, punch through the enemy's forward elements and break the effectiveness of a mob's massed firepower while increasing the team's effectiveness in battle.  Not every 'Frame has to require moderate skill and careful timing to be good. He's crude and simple...and he's very effective when used and modded right.

If anything, I'd buff his base armor to 225 (300 for Rhino Prime), allow Roar to draw agro as long as it's active, have his 1 and 4 scale a little better in terms of damage, and change his passive to something a little more interesting. For his passive, maybe grant an attack speed bonus when using Hammer, Heavy Blade, and Sword and Shield melee weapons. Other than these few things to make him shine a little bit more, Rhino is, honestly, quite fine as he stands right now. 

There's an old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Rhino is not broken and therefore doesn't need to be "fixed". Tweaked maybe, but not "fixed" (read "reworked").

 

On a side note...what is with this manic need to rework everything these days? It's getting a bit out of hand. It's like people don't know that even a few stat changes and/or a slight change in how something works can make things better than before without the need for a ton of effort.

That's all I did was suggests a couple of tweaks. Not an entire overhaul of his abilities or trying to change the frame entirely.

[low1991]

15 minutes ago, Dohako said:

You don't have one better... so it is until you show there is one better.

So in other words, you'r saying, "my suggestion is better unless someone else' suggestion beat me at my game", in which the victory will be decided by whom? Along those lines?

OP in your opening post, you'r basically ripping stuff from other frame' function to add to rhino at expense of those frames. And from my PoV it's ridiculous... No ability in the universe of warframe so far have ability to permanently affect enemies... The abilities are rather 'long' duration abilities. Even status effects.

On the other hand, should DE implement this which might destroy and cause outrage among rhino players, i say DE will mostly introduce a new frame (another tank) with shreds & pieces of this. 

[Xyhon]

To sum things up from my side, since we cant disagree on obvious things, I can do solo Mot for 2 hrs without getting killed or dropping IS, with Reinforcing Stomp for fun of it. Yes, it changes game to just CC everything, and jump around, but that's simple fact on this game, when you reach levels 150+, most enemies just wipe floor with frames, when you dont play invi/invulnerable frame. 

To commodate with anything, DE would need to change how enemies scale. Not give frames more and more power.

[RikerWatts]

49 minutes ago, Dohako said:

No you are not allowed to speak for other people. It was that player who made a comment and you defending them. You the assume I was be condescending but you were being rude and butting in on another conservation that didn't have anything to do with you. It's called staying in your lane or minding your own business. That's something you tell a child when he or she is in adult business. If that what you meant as me being condescending then you are absolutely right but do know you are referring to yourself as child which I don't you are but I could be wrong.

Now let's continue Everyone would still play those frames because people have their playstyle I already stated this berfore.

This thread is an open discussion, the hell do you mean "butting in"? You're just as freely allowed to interject on any comment I made not directed at you, it's freedom of speech and I highly doubt they'd want to counter your argument when you act this way. Your analogy with children is seriously irrelevant here and again condescending.

And no. Why play these other frames when Rhino by default becomes the best? I asked some of the best players I know to read this, they ALL said "This is the most broken change I have ever seen suggested."

 

 

52 minutes ago, Dohako said:

I get the raw health and raw armor part to an EXTENT, because the passive suggested helps out with rhino's ability to survive. Blind rage is a power strength mod unless you meant Rage? Anyways the Rage and QT combo has been patch/nerf a long time ago so that wouldn't be effective on any frame relying on that combo alone. QT is a very faulty mod there has been some players reporting about it not working at times, so I wouldn't think of equipping that mod on any frame without a guarantee it would work. QT if I'm not mistaken actually transfer your total armor value to your warframe's energy pool. E.G. Loki has a 65 armor value to protect his 700+ energy pool. Which is leading to the reports from players stating it don't work but actually getting hit so hard the game decided not to take away your energy to protect the warframe from the massive hit/one-shot. QT gives a guaranteed stunlock/stagger effect to your warframe. Rhino has a small health pool to begin and giving him some breaks in between so he won't die to quickly isn't a bad idea and his also take some of the pressure off of ironskin. Comparing this suggests to Inaros as being MORE TANKY is obscure.

Hence why QT and Rage (not blind, too used to using that.) is super broken on Inaros and makes the mummy damn near invulnerable to most forms of damage and death. Survivability isn't something rhino needs when he has the mobility and even IRON SKIN to draw from for immunity to damage and status.
Also the comparison to inaros is very justified since he can reach a massive amount of health and armor, with the 10% chance you want to give to rhino, the 3 seconds of invulnerability would keep him alive against level 100 corpus tech effectively longer.

 

9 hours ago, Dohako said:

I still don't see how DE would have to buff the enemies on this particular issue. At max rhino charge would reach 5000 blast damage per cast but damage falls off quickly. Hey I'll change it for you to nerfing it to 500 blast damage. I'm more concern about the augment being implemented +10 combo window and status duration would be nice addition. I would say check out a youtuber name distant observer and his frost + galatine prime video.

5K blast damage for max is insanely high, but even then blast is a knockdown proc which on its own is weaker than rhino's charge which is damage + ragdoll. I've seen the frost + galatine prime video, that has nothing to do with this augment of combo window you are pulling out at all.

 

 

9 hours ago, Dohako said:

Harrow is Laughing FYI. Harrow's ult has a 50m radius that can be increased by Disciplined Approach Varazin Focus school by 17m=67m total. The threshold of damage you are talking about is only 2000 damage needed to received the entire buff which easily achievable plus you can increase the Duration on his invulnerability for covenant but not rhino's ironskin. And the last part about something "MAKING SENSE" doesn't make much sense at all. You use this word thematics and I'm having trouble understanding the context you are putting it in. Do you mean relating to the ninja-based game? If so, you wouldn'tdisagree that some warframes aren't ninjas. Or you are relating to the warframe rhino himself? If so, you can't conform him strictly to an animal. If its the latter then I don't see too many people playing a warframe that is immune to everything but at the same time have 99% fire rate/movement speed. 20% crit and 20% status could also provide stat boost to everything(weapons,companions, warframe abilities and etc) THAT ARE effected by crit and status ONLY. 

First off, you're going to be hard pressed to find people who run vazarin over zenurik, and I'm one of the people who do run vazarin.
Second off, with the amount of kills other people in harrow's party gets, getting damaged for the ult duration can be a pain in the &#!. And the gap between balances it so it isn't always 50%, you have to rely on receiving damage for max output.
Thematics is like frost using frost abilities. If we were to change one of them to be related to earth rather than ice, you are conflicting with his thematics.
Ninja base of the game is how warframe is, ninjas stereotypically moved fast, nimbly, and were deadly. This is what people think of with ninjas, for us, stealth is optional.
IT's obvious rhino isn't an animal, yet he is based on both the animal and a football player whom are considered "as strong as rhinos" for their charge.

The whole thing is a mess, roar being a bolster to power strength alone is super strong but removing that and making a flat crit chance would enforce something rhino doesn't stand for. His warcry wouldn't bolster a warframe's weapons, it would bolster their resolve. Make his allies perform better, not firearms, that makes no sense. Firearms are not living things.

Also you didn't point out the ridiculousness of the rhino stomp so I am going to assume you understand the sheer gravity of how busted 97.5% is.

[Dohako]

12 hours ago, low1991 said:

So in other words, you'r saying, "my suggestion is better unless someone else' suggestion beat me at my game", in which the victory will be decided by whom? Along those lines?

OP in your opening post, you'r basically ripping stuff from other frame' function to add to rhino at expense of those frames. And from my PoV it's ridiculous... No ability in the universe of warframe so far have ability to permanently affect enemies... The abilities are rather 'long' duration abilities. Even status effects.

On the other hand, should DE implement this which might destroy and cause outrage among rhino players, i say DE will mostly introduce a new frame (another tank) with shreds & pieces of this. 

Loki radial disarm and I was aiming my previous comment at your ridicule personally not in general for everyone else. That's what I meant we can have a discussion about it without ridicule.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Dohako

[Dohako]

10 hours ago, Xyhon said:

To sum things up from my side, since we cant disagree on obvious things, I can do solo Mot for 2 hrs without getting killed or dropping IS, with Reinforcing Stomp for fun of it. Yes, it changes game to just CC everything, and jump around, but that's simple fact on this game, when you reach levels 150+, most enemies just wipe floor with frames, when you dont play invi/invulnerable frame. 

To commodate with anything, DE would need to change how enemies scale. Not give frames more and more power.

I'm not trying to suggests more power to rhino. Just tons more CC and not being heavily reliant on his one ability Ironskin. The way the frame is setup now is that rhino charge and stomp benefits Ironskin. And I think roar affects ironclad charge as well so that's three abilities helping out this one ability to get a decent value. That's called forced synergy and players are saying that's a good thing. It's almost to the point of saying we should go back to the old days where abilities were mods and warframes had 10 mod slots + aura slot = 11 and just build around that one ability. We can agree on this last sentence can we not??? A warframe with a good usable kit is much better than a just having one extremely great ability.

[Dohako]

2 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

This thread is an open discussion, the hell do you mean "butting in"? You're just as freely allowed to interject on any comment I made not directed at you, it's freedom of speech and I highly doubt they'd want to counter your argument when you act this way. Your analogy with children is seriously irrelevant here and again condescending.

And no. Why play these other frames when Rhino by default becomes the best? I asked some of the best players I know to read this, they ALL said "This is the most broken change I have ever seen suggested."

This thread is an open discussion about rhino that's the umbrella. I am freely allowed to interject on any comment this is correct. But what you were doing was rude you became someone else's spoke person which he/she didn't ask you to do and rob them of a chance to reply which he/she later did reply back and continue the conversation. So yes you did put yourself in the light of a child that did not have any business of butting in on another conversation. The umbrella is business I'm talking to Xyhon about mortgage and I'm talking you about investments both fall under the umbrella of business both you butt in on his conversation before he/she chance to saying any you cut them off. I get the whole first amendment right thing but sometimes that sh*t goes to people head and most time people just need to shut the f**k up and not be over opinionated. Show some respect and common courtesy for the next man or woman please. I'm NOT telling you to shut up but I'm asking to be kind to others on my watch. 

 

2 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

Hence why QT and Rage (not blind, too used to using that.) is super broken on Inaros and makes the mummy damn near invulnerable to most forms of damage and death. Survivability isn't something rhino needs when he has the mobility and even IRON SKIN to draw from for immunity to damage and status.
Also the comparison to inaros is very justified since he can reach a massive amount of health and armor, with the 10% chance you want to give to rhino, the 3 seconds of invulnerability would keep him alive against level 100 corpus tech effectively longer.
 

The comparison is not justified. 6k health and 1k armor on a consistent basis if you apply two full sets of arcane ultimatum for inaros. 1k health and 700 armor for rhino with all mods you can equip. upon receiving damage to health there is a 10% chance for 3 sec invulnerability not affected by any mods or else wise. Trying to compare Rhino to Inaros is comparing Ash with no mods invis to Ivara's BARELY modded invis. They are in totally two different classrooms.

 

2 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

5K blast damage for max is insanely high, but even then blast is a knockdown proc which on its own is weaker than rhino's charge which is damage + ragdoll. I've seen the frost + galatine prime video, that has nothing to do with this augment of combo window you are pulling out at all.

Did you see the part where he pointed out the stealth damage that is being done without being invisible? And then went into all the calculations and explanation? That would explain the augment that was suggested. A disoriented enemy coming of the ground can have stealth apply to them and also being down on the ground can open them up to ground finishers. +10 combo window and status duration is suggested for players who like to melee.

 

2 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

First off, you're going to be hard pressed to find people who run vazarin over zenurik, and I'm one of the people who do run vazarin.
Second off, with the amount of kills other people in harrow's party gets, getting damaged for the ult duration can be a pain in the &#!. And the gap between balances it so it isn't always 50%, you have to rely on receiving damage for max output.
Thematics is like frost using frost abilities. If we were to change one of them to be related to earth rather than ice, you are conflicting with his thematics.
Ninja base of the game is how warframe is, ninjas stereotypically moved fast, nimbly, and were deadly. This is what people think of with ninjas, for us, stealth is optional.
IT's obvious rhino isn't an animal, yet he is based on both the animal and a football player whom are considered "as strong as rhinos" for their charge.

The whole thing is a mess, roar being a bolster to power strength alone is super strong but removing that and making a flat crit chance would enforce something rhino doesn't stand for. His warcry wouldn't bolster a warframe's weapons, it would bolster their resolve. Make his allies perform better, not firearms, that makes no sense. Firearms are not living things.

Also you didn't point out the ridiculousness of the rhino stomp so I am going to assume you understand the sheer gravity of how busted 97.5% is.

 It's 2000 plus damage isn't hard to get at all unless you are playing like level 20 enemies and below??? And what player in their right mind knowing they have a support frame like harrow on their team and not using his buffs??? unless you are not talking to your fellow teammates to allow you to get the damage required to get the buff that benefits everyone or their being complete a-holes. That's like people killing the enemy before a Trinity player can use EV on that enemy. It doesn't make any since, but either way that's not an excuse to find ways to maximize your buffs with harrow. Play solo...

This statement from the beginning "the whole thing is a mess..." to the end "...Firearms are not livings things." makes absolutely no sense at all. Logically or otherwise. The warframes and the weapons synergize you know that right? Chroma boosting a weapon's damage output. A slash weapon with Ash's seeking shuriken. CL dagger with Inaros. There is always some type of synergy going between warframes and weapons. The youtuber distant observer I referred you to has a ton of videos on this topic alone. Bolstering another warframe's resolve??? That's has to be your weakest argument you have displayed so far. The warframe is programmed into a game that real human beings play. The only resolve displayed is whether or not that individual player wants to play the game. For sh*t and giggles let's say your warframe decided to not to go out and fight against enemy factions because he need a his resolve bolster or told you " You are not in control of me and proceeded to sit on his or her a**." How would you react then to your disobedient warframe? You can't do anything to him/her because they live in a virtual world and you the real one. What do you do if you are in a middle of a battle and your warframe decided to go against your better judgement to activate ability that's going to without a shadow of a doubt aid in their survival and said "I don't feel like performing that ability or that ability may pull my hamstring if I do that before I stretch." How would you respond then?...

And for the last part I told you I yield and change it to 50%/?/?/75%  

[RikerWatts]

1 hour ago, Dohako said:

This thread is an open discussion about rhino that's the umbrella. I am freely allowed to interject on any comment this is correct. But what you were doing was rude you became someone else's spoke person which he/she didn't ask you to do and rob them of a chance to reply which he/she later did reply back and continue the conversation. So yes you did put yourself in the light of a child that did not have any business of butting in on another conversation. The umbrella is business I'm talking to Xyhon about mortgage and I'm talking you about investments both fall under the umbrella of business both you butt in on his conversation before he/she chance to saying any you cut them off. I get the whole first amendment right thing but sometimes that sh*t goes to people head and most time people just need to shut the f**k up and not be over opinionated. Show some respect and common courtesy for the next man or woman please. I'm NOT telling you to shut up but I'm asking to be kind to others on my watch. 

Quote

THE BEST REWORK FOR RHINO HANDS DOWN!!!

Quote

In conclusion This is the best rework for rhino hands down because no one else can come up with better suggestions than me. That's not me being braggadocios or overly/extremely boastful. It's the truth until someone comes with a better one this will be it HANDS DOWN!!! 

14 hours ago, Dohako said:

You don't have one better... so it is until you show there is one better.

Here you go

Find me one person in this thread who vehemently agrees with what you said for the rhino rework before your edits.

Edited August 15, 2017 by RikerWatts

[Hoangviet1996]

Ironskin doesn't scale off either power str or armor and turn into a channel ability. You lost me here bruh, i would love to see a more detailed idea than that

[Windy_Wind]

so basically you want to turn him into a wukong with more CC capability.....mmm no no no no no no, rhino is no wukong or valkyr, And please stop with the invulnerability gimmick, Rhino himself is already invulnerability at the moment if you have energy.

[Kaos88]

Don't agree with toggle iron skin at all. That would be annoying as F***. I personally think rhino is in a good place atm. 

Perfect for assassination missions or nightmare missions. 

[xS0nico]

I don't really understand why Rhino needs a rework, honestly.
The only thing that i agree is the Roar Augment replacement. But the rest...is quite overexagerated, to be honest. 

[(PSN)theelix]

 this is your rework. 

Consists of nothing but random buffs that... have no reason real to be implemented and random nerfs that make even less sense. Passive to randomly give you iron skin's three seconds of invincibility at higher rates because...? That has too much gameplay value to be a passive. Iron skin being Valkyr's ult without the restriction to melee because...? Roar just turning Rhino into the crit/status buff tank because...? 

There's no reason for any of it. We'd be better without it. 

[(PSN)MrNishi]

On 8/15/2017 at 0:47 AM, Dohako said:

......

 

Ok, fine I'll decrease that as well to 75% unaffected by power strength but stays permanent. Nekros can achieve 100% enemy slow movement speed. 

...

 

Nekros Creeping Terrify is capped at 75% slow just like Nova and Valkyr.

Frost and Limbo can slow to 100%

 

Yes I know you were not talking to me. I however am addressing what was said in the thread of this forum(medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged),as it was not a private message.

[(PSN)RedWhiskey96]

I don't see any issue with rhinos kit 

Iron skin does it job very nicely although it would be nice to be able ro recast when it gets low  but then that would  defeat the purpose of his iron skin augment  

Charge is pretty good especially with clad charge 

Roar does good no complaints 

Stomp great way to get out of some tight spots especially when the object in a defense is getting swamped 

Iv used rhino alot spot I highly recommend him to all the new players I meet I see no issue with him he's a very well balanced warframe and among my top favs I personally would like him to be left as is all this posts about re work are nice but not all frames need a rework just a good set of mods and skill  

 

[Azamagon]

On 2017-08-15 at 9:48 AM, Dohako said:

You don't have one better... so it is until you show there is one better.

Because he doesn't need a rework. Few tiny tweaks maybe, as many others have said, but not a total rework.

So, here's mine:

Rhino Charge - Considering its use is actually a bit limitted, I'd simply give this ability more damage oomph (after all it LOOKS like an incredibly vicious attack). Something along the lines of scaling with melee mods and such.

Iron Skin - While I can understand some people not wanting to use an augment to be able to uncast it, it IS an incredibly powerful tool to have it recastable. And DE is all about bandaid fixes with augments anyway. Regardless, I'd carefully try to test out Iron Skin being uncastable by default. Iron Skin's augment would then keep the "shrapnel" bonus, but also gets Reinforcing Stomp's bonuses combined into (so you can heal Iron Skin with Rhino Stomp, and uncasting Iron Skin causes an explosion with ragdoll and damage based on its health).

Roar - Make it recastable. Augment reworked: It could let him draw aggro of enemies caught in Roar's radius for X seconds. Perfect augment for tanking-utility, synergizing really well with Iron Skin's mechanics.

Rhino Stomp - Augment reworked: It will now try to move all enemies caught by Rhino Stomp into a line in front of Rhino (perfect synergy with his #1). Call it... Fissure Stomp

Passive - In addition to what he has now; If he sprints into enemies he will impact-proc them. If he slides into enemies he will knock them down.

And there ya go, now all abilities have defined roles:
#1 - Mobility and damage
#2 - Survivability
#3 - Utility
#4 - CC

A very complete frame without requiring a total rework. Only a few tweakes were needed. This is what people have been trying to tell you.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Azamagon

[Cyandana]

Rhino does not need a rework at all. The numbers on iron skin could perhaps be looked at since the armor scaling can get a bit silly, but his kit is simple and effective - every new players best friend for sure.

I am never angry at a Rhino for being in my party in a low level mission because he won't die over and over and he also won't just instantly obliterate everything and ruin the new player experience. I am happy to see Rhinos in high level missions because no matter how you build the frame he will always contribute something positive that isn't overbearing.

tl;dr - frame is fine besides maybe iron skin