Zephyr Rework

[Desdemona-XI]

On 8/19/2017 at 11:35 PM, (PS4)Kai_Naputi said:

I just wanna say. YAASSSS QUEEN YAASSSS! Just! Yes! Thanks you! For Articulating everything I never knew I needed from Zephyr, especially how Titania flies like a bird of prey and Zephyr is literally meant to fly but can't. This is literally nothing in the form of critique, just things I though you should know and anyone who wants to read.

1: I say to correct yourselves to the people saying turbulence is OP. I give you Titania's evasion in AW form, Wukong's Deny, Wukong's Cloud Walker, Nezha's Warding Halo, Chroma's Frost Armor Build, need I go on? Let Zephyr have her defense and leave it be. Also, to the one guy who said the flamethrower damage was a bug of some sort, how was it a bug for how long since she came out? Hrm? That ain't no bug honey, that's part of the balancing.

2: I love everything that you put into making this rework, especially the emphasis you made on not wanting this to be a Titania 2.0, which would be stupid (not only because Zephyr came before Titania) because it would take away what made Zephyr unique. I particularly loved the fact that you made the comment that you don't want the rework to come to make Zephyr only useable in the Plains rather than on any mission and that really speaks to the soul right there.

3: Lastly, Zephyr is one of the least played Warframes, this, we all know. And it's so beautiful to see that you, the creator of the thread, are so open to tweaking everything and seeing the faults in your own plans. So it's really cool to see the collaboration you're putting into this because, let's face it, no meta frame people are gonna be here telling us how to fix Zephyr cuz they ain't thinking twice about her. This is just the collective Zephyr sympathizers and Zephyr mains' ideas to toss around and see what would really keep Zephyr at the forefront of our minds.

So, thank you!

I feel I should thank you for such high praise. And I do agree. Turbulence is fine as it is, adding to it i feel might carry it a bit too far. but just as it is now feels just right. 

 

I Feel very strongly that Zephyr should not be caged to open map tiles and plains to feel useful but her having an advantage in these locations was always important to me.

 

I try treat any suggestion fairly and give it due consideration. Some people prefer to just nitpick at what they think wont work rather then offering an actual suggestion. but I am actually quite pleased with the number of people who have had something to add. I kicked this idea around my clan and friends for a while before posting it.

 

It was also important to me that I not take the changes too far. Some amazing zephyr rework ideas are out there, but I feel that some are simply.. for lack of a better word, asking too much. ideas that utterly change that many abilities makes more work for DE. And DE has not made a rework on that scale yet, and frankly I don't expect them to do it the first time ever for Zephyr. Functionally speaking my rework adds one skill and tidies up Divebomb and tailwind. and gives tornado a bit of a buff. these are changes that are in line with the rework trends of Hydroid, Limbo and Excalibur.

Or they might just release a new frame with those powers instead. (I am sure plenty of folk suggested a fire breath for ember at some point, and then chroma showed up)

Edited August 21, 2017 by Desdemona-XI
Added a bit more~

[Desdemona-XI]

On 8/15/2017 at 1:06 PM, Thaylien said:

Incorrect, friend, she has 100% immunity to ranged weaponry as long a you don't nerf your range. The only things that pass through Turbulence are Auras, Area-of-effect (like explosions) and melee. There is currently the problem of flame-throwers too, but that's a bug as far as I know.

The reason that you don't nerf your range on Zephyr is because there is what's called a 'penetration distance' on Turbulence that means projectiles can come in a certain way and then are reflected out based on their angle in relation to Zephyr. In tight spaces, like corridors, this can mean that missiles are reflected to the walls, floor or ceiling, and the explosions can still hit you if you're close to them. And if you're silly enough to run right up to a Bombard's face, he'll fire a rocket knowing he can't kill himself, and the reflection just bounces it straight down at your feet.

Turbulence has been patched and updated more times than any other ability in game to make it work as well as it does, it's incredibly strong when used with all the knowledge of its strengths and weaknesses (so that you don't end up taking a rocket to the foot), and as far as pure defense abilities go it's top three in the game at least, could be even the top, if it was applied to a frame that could really exploit that ranged defense (imagine a Mesa with 100% ranged damage negation instead of 95% damage reduction from Shatter Shield, no enemy could ever get close enough to kill her, and nothing outside her range could ever hit her...).

Also, don't mind Wezling, kid's enthusiastic, but has some good ideas. I'm getting too old for all these debates, myself, but try out my Shock and Awe rework that's lurking around the recent thread on here, see what you like from there.

If you want a full run-down and critique of your work, just ask, I'll be happy to poke holes and find strengths later.

It occurs to me I never directly addressed this message somehow.

my Apologies.

and I mean 70% in terms of effective immunity. and reflecting an explosive to one's feet or other similar close surface is Not immunity in a practical sense, Mesa's shattershield will turn even missiles back on the fellow who shot it, or at least it used to. (I typically prefer not to let missiles hit me in the face regardless of frame)

Turbulence as i said is fine as is, However zephyr would not be the first frame to have a 2 stronger then their 3 if the re-ordering is handled as suggested. (valkyr is one such example) And I am not very hung up on the order of it. the flight would probably fit the 2 spot fairly well too.

 

I dont Mind Wezling at all. Based on what I read of his rework I appear to have gotten a few incorrect impressions as to just how powerful he is aiming at. and his rebuild isn't an awful idea either. Naturally I prefer mine, that's why I posted it ;3 I'm glad to see someone who is also Enthusiastic about zephyr. 

 

I have indeed Taken a peek at your own Rework idea and on the whole am very impressed by it.

I have a few minor qualms with it but those would be the sort of things I cant really be sure of without actually testing it.

 

I would be interested to hear your thoughts and suggestions on my rework as it currently stands. I've polished up the idea a little bit and added a few suggestions where I think  they would be most useful. But I do understand that you are likely a tad busy so I do not wish you to feel pressured into an in-depth breakdown either. I concede there are likely quite a few weak points, I mean I don't have much of a practical head for exact figures and the game engine mechanics. so I Havent been overly specific with the figures, but that's also because I do expect DE would pick numbers they feel would be appropriate and balanced anyway.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Desdemona-XI

[wezling]

5 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

I dont Mind Wezling at all. Based on what I read of his rework I appear to have gotten a few incorrect impressions as to just how powerful he is aiming at. and his rebuild isn't an awful idea either. Naturally I prefer mine, that's why I posted it ;3 I'm glad to see someone who is also Enthusiastic about zephyr. 

Thanks for the praise.

Not sure if you got a chance to look at my thread recently, Thaylien took a chip at it and i hope I was able to clean the ideas up a bit. Others I know I'll have to rethink completely and that happens.

Anyway, feel free to throw in your thoughts on it. I'd like the feedback, and ask Thaylien, if you throw in an idea I like I'll try to work it into my current rework thoughts.

And I apologize if I was a bit too... sharp tongued earlier. Working on multiple deadlines can cause quite a bit stress.

[low1991]

I counter suggest:

#1: Levitate: Zephyr now floats around the place as if she's now in AW mode except no more stinking. 

#2: WindShield: Buff to Zephyr' shield' shield recovery rate, max shield and now start recovering shield 1 second after attacked. Add x% chance to deflect hitscans.

#3: Remains, no change

#4: Hurricane: pull enemies at x rate towards the hurricane, enemies affected will be drag along by the wind pressure. On expiry, enemies affect will suffer confusion/dizzy (will not move or attack, occasionally fall down after x seconds).

Edited August 21, 2017 by low1991

[Desdemona-XI]

On 8/21/2017 at 11:16 AM, low1991 said:

I counter suggest:

#1: Levitate: Zephyr now floats around the place as if she's now in AW mode except no more stinking. 

#2: WindShield: Buff to Zephyr' shield' shield recovery rate, max shield and now start recovering shield 1 second after attacked. Add x% chance to deflect hitscans.

#3: Remains, no change

#4: Hurricane: pull enemies at x rate towards the hurricane, enemies affected will be drag along by the wind pressure. On expiry, enemies affect will suffer confusion/dizzy (will not move or attack, occasionally fall down after x seconds).

Interesting ideas. but.. I have some questions.

 

1 - explain AW mode except no more stinking. because AW mode is literally. a floating warframe.

2 and 3. you want to slap two powerful defensive buffs on zephyr? 

4 I don't see the value of, enemies are already thrown when tornado expires preventing them from acting. if you want the dizzy effect to persist, how long after they hit the ground and get up again? 5seconds? anything more then 5 seconds of enemies not moving or attacking at all while being perfectly targetable would be a bit much I feel.

[Desdemona-XI]

On 8/21/2017 at 9:49 AM, wezling said:

Thanks for the praise.

Not sure if you got a chance to look at my thread recently, Thaylien took a chip at it and i hope I was able to clean the ideas up a bit. Others I know I'll have to rethink completely and that happens.

Anyway, feel free to throw in your thoughts on it. I'd like the feedback, and ask Thaylien, if you throw in an idea I like I'll try to work it into my current rework thoughts.

And I apologize if I was a bit too... sharp tongued earlier. Working on multiple deadlines can cause quite a bit stress.

I will take another look at it soon. Internet troubles here are presently restricting my access.

and no worries. I understand deadline stress. ^_^

[Caelward]

You want flight mode in Plains of Eidolon? We've already got our archwings. We don't need a second warframe with redundant abilities.

'Zephyr' is a type of wind. Not the name of a bird.

Anytime you say the words 'most people' you need to reconsider your argument. You can argue your points as you like, but understand that there are players like me who are not part of your 'most people'. And saying those words is a surefire way to earn annoyed responses. That said, what I say here is my own opinions developed over time in many rework threads.

I do not like Zephyr's passive. Old doesn't mean good. To me it is obstructive and something I have to play around more often then not. I still find it telling that her passive was used as a penalty modifier for nightmare missions. It adds as much frustration to play as anything else and I believe there are better ways it could be done that don't involve taking longer to hit the ground without wasting valuable energy and it causes you to relearn habits whenever you switch between her and another frame. It's an irritating hiccup that feels to me like it should be smoothed out.

I do not believe giving her a flight mode will help her. I've seen many suggestions on these forums that I would be much happier to have. Of course the argument for flight has returned now that PoE is coming. But we're already getting access to archwings in that area. She doesn't need sub-par redundancy, she needs a proper kit rework. It is really important to consider that the last several reworks that have rolled out with ability scopes remaining roughly the same. Sure frames will get new abilities, but I can only think of one frame getting a whole exalted mode. And Excalibur was the first. He more than any other deserved such a rework. With all that the chances of her actually getting a flight mode are seem vanishingly small to me. 

I believe it is a far better use of energy to keep her abilities lower scale than 'make her fly' and that we should concentrate on making what she's got awesome. Thematically it's there. It's just that functionally, it isn't. Her turbulence is fantastic and Tornado are unlikely to go away, that doesn't leave a huge room for power. We have to think of mechanically interesting but not overwhelming ways to use her 1 and 2.

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 21/08/2017 at 2:34 AM, Desdemona-XI said:

I've been here three years and I still don't get the fuss against Archwing mechanics. And noone that I've asked has actually pointed out what part of the mechanics bothers them.

Maybe I can explain this one for you while I'm here;

The problem that people have with Archwing mechanics being applied instead of regular warframe movement is multi-layered, because they aren't the same at all, especially not in terms of how you interact with the game.

Archwing mode in gravity is, to start with, slow to do anything. It's very momentum based and so is slow to start and slow to stop, the movements themselves lack all forms of evasion, quick reaction and twitch movement that Warframe is incredibly popular for. Unless you're Titania with her tiny size in Razorwing (where the landscape around you is effectively 175% bigger than normal), there is literally not enough space for a warframe to fly around in due to this drifting and slewing with every attempted movement and turn. This is because no single tile in this game lacks a doorway that is the minimum size to link to the next tile, even the largest doors (the Void tile set) are mostly only tall, very few of them are wide, and the rest are regular doors.

Zephyr, for example, has exceptionally fast dashes, high sprint speed and an augment that makes her even faster too, and even a novice Zephyr player can beat a Titania to any location on a map (that isn't a pure hover location above the ground) using parkour, sprint and Tailwind currently. The Archwing system is just too slow to react to compare to regular warframe movement.

While in archwing mode (and currently it's an actual mode, a different type of movement engine is powering it, until PoE comes out and we see if this is different for the in-atmo archwing programming there... it's not likely to change) you are completely unable to perform 90% of the essential parts of the game; using any prompt action (revive, activate, pick up, anything that says 'press X to' doesn't work in archwing mode), using melee stances and the rather important triggers like stealth finishers, ground finishers and so on that are connected with that system, and even use a secondary (as currently archwing mode does not support a secondary).

So for Zephyr, who has great ability to close distances, react to problems and ignore ranged damage while performing actions like reviving and activating life support, this would be a terrible move.

And lastly... Unless you change up Zephyr into a completely different sort of frame, with complete reworks to every ability, flying just doesn't do anything for her.

Think about it without the rose-tinted spectacles of how much fun flight is, just for a minute. What can Zephyr actually do in the air? There is only one aerial enemy in the game higher than about eight feet from the ground, one. The Hellion grineer, who hovers in place at a height within Bullet Jump range and fires rockets which Zephyr can deflect anyway. All enemies, game functions and mechanics of Warframe that aren't Archwing are on the ground.

The key point to consider here, friend, is that if you only gave Zephyr flight, what could she do that she couldn't already do? And what could she do better? The answer is nothing but hover in place, that's the only new thing she'd gain.

Your option of giving her a straight crowd control ability that knocks over or ragdolls enemies? That's an ability that would give her something more useful, yes, but tacking the flying onto it still does nothing but let her hover while doing it. She'd still have to come down to the ground for everything else in the game. She'd still come down and land on the defense point to protect it with Turbulence, she'd still come down and have to cancel out of the ability to do any actions, she'd still have to be at ground level to traverse between any given tile and the next... It doesn't make sense to give her a new ability unless it actually achieves something to do with the game.

My statement I would use here, as something you would need to actually debate to in any way disprove, is: Anything a flying Zephyr could do, a non-flying Zephyr (with all the same other functions) could do better.

Why does Zephyr have aerial mobility? Because before her no frame did. None. The fact that Titania got flight was pure and simple because Archwing then existed, as in it was invented long after Zephyr, and only a little before Titania. They weren't going to re-invent a frame that already had a full skillset designed around the ground combat when they could make a frame that incorporated it at base.

And that's really the thing here, Zephyr wasn't actually designed to be any different than all the other frames, just to have a different way of engaging in battle. She launches, and lands, she has defense while she's vulnerable, and a heavy sustain ability if she gets overwhelmed. Yes the implementation of that has left her a little lacking in what she does in the current game, but... what goes up comes down, in this case. She was designed around a game that has ground-based combat, and was built to exploit what aerial movement there is in order to complete her defense aspect, perfect ranged defense and high mobility to avoid all other forms of damage.

Here is where you're getting all of this in some giant knot:

On 14/08/2017 at 7:24 AM, Desdemona-XI said:

but come on.. honestly she's a BIRD.

She honestly, objectively, functionally, lore wise, and implementation wise... isn't.

Objectively she uses air, she summons, channels, uses air, she does not... flap her arms to generate lift or anything silly like that, in short she's a caster. Functionally she doesn't fly, she launches through the air on compressed jets of air. Lore wise all of her abilities are based on using Tenno energy, through the frame's layout, to move atmosphere. And implementation wise... no, she was designed for a game that has no aerial combat.

Your logic is like saying Valkyr is the Cat frame, when it's objectively derived that she's the Berserker frame, or that Banshee Prime is the Cicada frame even... A helmet design does not make the theme.

Yes flight is a cool, nobody is denying that. What we're all trying to explain to you is that, in this game, Warframe, with the engine we have and the functions the game uses, flying is a bad mechanic and only barely, just barely, works with the limitations and changes it applies to Titania (with her shrinking and gaining 'exalted' style weapons), it just wouldn't work for a full-sized warframe that already has incredibly versatile mobility when modded for it. Plains of Eidolan is arriving soon (the content creators have already been sent their NDA agreements with the release date, plus talking topics and fact sheets on the new mechanics for them to spread the correct info on) and it will have archwing ability as part of the movement, but this is not the way to prepare Zephyr for it.

For Zephyr, a mobile, reactive, quick-engage frame... you don't want to hamper her with more movement, you want to make everything else she does better so that she can put all her good movement to better use.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Here is what i'd do:

~on her tail wind if she has her 3 on and flys by enemies she will drag them along with her.

~on her dive bomb if she has her 3 on it will push enemies away once she hits the ground.  combined with her augment this makes for some very efficient cc.

~update her 4's AI so the tornadoes aggressively track enemies down.  Make it so if she tail winds through any of her tornadoes it gives her a boost.  Let allies shooting the tornadoes (and her as well) transfer a % of their weapons damage to the tornado to boost it's damage to enemies.

[PurpleBomber]

While generally I agree that Zephyr's rework shouldn't really be discussed in too much depth until after Plains of Eidolon hits, Tornado needs to be scrapped regardless. The damage is very poor by today's standards, the CC is even more haphazard and frustrating than Hydroid's old Tentacle Swarm was, and the the tracking AI is perpetually stupid. Numerical buffs will not fix this ability, since the bandaid they put on Tentacle Swarm of "slow them down so they're easier to shoot" is just not applicable on Tornado picking up and flinging enemies every which-away. Regardless of how they could change the AI, it's never going to be reliable CC by any other frame's standards since par for any other frame is simply CCing everything in range rather than whatever crapshoot Tornado decides for you. By the same token, regardless of how DE could change the damage Tornado would still be an inferior kill skill since again most other frames simply choose "everything" as a target with their kill skills.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Hey, not related to the thread, really, but I thought I'd jump in with some counters for this:

1 hour ago, PurpleBomber said:

Tornado needs to be scrapped regardless

Tornado should be amazing, it's just poor execution.

You're quite correct that numerical buffs won't fix this ability, but the ability can be fixed, and be made reliable.

The problem with Tornado is not its damage, because it's funny really; I ran the calculations and Tornado can, at neutral strength, out damage every other single-cast 4 ability in game. Since Bladestorm is now not a tap-and-go ability anymore, Tornado's damage numbers actually should, given the right circumstances, outdo everything on the 4th cast that you hit once and watch it happen; Crush, Avalanche, Reckoning, Discharge, Stomp, Tentacle Swarm... it's crazy.

It's those 'right circumstances' that make it happen, though, such as 'if a funnel picked up and held an enemy for ten seconds without letting it go or pressing it to the ceiling'.

And again, the problem is not the CC, because instant ragdoll on every enemy that touches 5m away from one of four funnels, they spawn on enemies in range and that's an amazing source of potential heavy CC.

That 'potential' is where the issue comes in. Poor execution of the AI has ruined the actual CC achieved by the ability.

So... it needs several things to fix it, because the problems are all related to the execution and the actual effects on enemies. Everyone knows that the slow, random march of the funnels is a problem, everyone knows that the distance they can wander away is a problem, everyone knows that the random scattering of loot and surviving enemies is a problem, everyone knows that the inconsistent duration of CC per enemy is a problem, everyone knows that the inability to shoot through the game-objects of the funnels is a problem, everyone knows that the insanely long potential duration (as long as Turbulence) means that it always lasts too long for comfort and can ruin your team's gameplay, and! not everyone knows, but everyone is aware of it on a subtle level, that the ability to change the elemental type of the funnels is ruined by the funnels accepting elemental types from allies and also by the 'preferred' element list that means that a Corrosive type cannot be changed to anything else!

Which means... okay, so let's go through them together;

1. Fix the funnel roaming, speed, targeting AI all in one sweep; make it a range-modded area cast, so funnels can still wander around, but only up to a limited distance from the casting point. Simple. Because they can't now go more than... let's put a cap of 50m like a lot of other abilities do on it, right? Since they can't go more than that far away they can then be sped up, they can be programmed to follow the nav-mesh that enemies do so they never wander over to places enemies can't walk, they can spawn in next to Zephyr (to ensure that the initial CC is always predictable around the player) and then move outwards to quickly CC in four directions, taking enemies with them as they go. Sensible fix, right? But it's not enough.

2. Fix the enemy CC, the lift, damage and throw function like this: let us shoot through the funnel in-game objects, so we can shoot lifted enemies even if they're moving behind the funnel; lift enemies for a reliable amount of time, let's put that in at 10 seconds un-moddable, which will mean that both the elemental procs and ticks of damage can be balanced for DoT on DE's preferred scaling; and then have the launch be a momentum-applied upwards throw, not outwards, that is an actual release (enemies are not suspended against the geometry for the entire duration, they have to land again before a funnel can re-target and pick them up), this way the picked up enemies also land back inside the ability range and can be picked up again if need be, but more importantly they have been in a specific movement of 'around the funnel, then upwards' that players can predict and track with weapons for shooting the enemies that are CC'd. But this still isn't quite enough, is it?

3. Fix the overall annoyance factors: the long duration can be fixed by an active cancel, press 4 again to turn it off, allowing you to recast it again somewhere else or just not have it running if your team doesn't want it interfering with enemy flow; the elemental damage can be fixed by making it the player's damage only that changes the elemental type, thus allowing the funnels to be changed to whatever elemental damage their weapon deals, the first element on the weapon for example, meaning that a corrosive funnel can be changed back to a fire funnel or a viral funnel if those elemental types do better against the specific enemies; and finally... well that's about it actually, that would fix Tornado and make it reliable.

You would have a persistent heavy-CC area denial, much like Vortex, which picked up enemies as they walk in, quickly and cleanly, applied a total CC to them for ten seconds, released them and then re-targeted them if they survived. The damage would then be reliable, even if it didn't exceed the damage of say Avalanche or Miasma, the elemental chance would be predictable, the CC would be consistent within the area of effect, and it could even be cancelled if it wasn't needed or wanted.

Think of it as the mid-point between Tentacle Swarm's flailing and spread-out nature, with Finisher damage, and Vortex's single-point heavy CC that gathers enemies but deals practically no damage. Tornado grabs up and holds enemies from what they were doing, moves them around for a bit inside their influence, but lets them go again. It affects a wider area than Vortex, but less consistently too, but more consistently than Tentacle Swarm and it would then deal more damage than Vortex, but less than Tentacle Swarm's Finisher damage (except it you modify the element to deal +50% or +75% damage against that specific enemy type).

In effect, though, the big benefit of all of this?

It's basically just an AI and physics adjustment to the existing ability, no need for extra assets, no need for testing, balancing and implementing an entire new ability... it would still be Tornado, but it would now work.

What do you think?

[PurpleBomber]

For starters I'd love to see your math that turned base 120 elemental damage per second over 20 seconds (assuming enemies stay in the tornado for the full duration, which they don't) into the most damaging 4 in the game... or would, rather, had you not almost entirely compared Tornado to burst damage 4s. Tornado's damage is strictly over time, so comparing them to single-animation 4s (don't want to say single hit, since 4s like Crush have a little more nuance than that) is both silly and fruitless. Just going down the list of what is comparable... among Warframes with constant damage over time components to their 4s, I see:

Banshee, Chroma, Equinox (Day form), Hydroid, Inaros, Mirage, Saryn, Vauban, Volt

Among these frames, ONLY Vauban's Vortex deals less damage per second and I think we can all agree Vortex is in no way inferior to Tornado regardless. You claim to have compared Discharge and Tentacle Swarm, with the former dealing 225 base Electric damage to a single target every half-second and the latter dealing 200 Finisher damage per second after the initial 300 Magnetic. That... does not fall short to 120 Magnetic damage per second, at all. There are of course additional considerations for both Discharge and Tentacle Swarm beyond this basic on-paper math, but taking those in mind only further widen the gap between them and Tornado. The gap only further widens between Tornado and the other DoT 4s as you start applying the percentile Power Strength mods, as Tornado's inferior base damage per second will get less scaling from mods than its contemporaries. If you're trying to skip past the damage as part of Tornado's problem (spoiler: its problem is everything), I feel like you've made a mistake already there.

And to say that the CC is not a problem either... Tornado's CC is terrible for very exact reasons: it ragdolls enemies, and then puts those ragdolls in motion. For any target sturdy enough that you'd want to CC it instead of straight up nuking it, you as a player want headshots to help kill the CC'd enemy faster. Tornado, even with all your suggestions included, makes it infuriating  when not outright impossible to aim for headshots. It's an ability with bad team synergy. Pre-rework Tentacle Swarm also had this problem, but as I stated previously the same bandaid DE used there will not fit on Tornado. Tornado does NOTHING well even when it connects, so even improving the AI to such a degree that it's reliable (pipe dream) still leaves it at the state where it will continue to do nothing well even when it does what you want it to do.

[Desdemona-XI]

On 8/28/2017 at 2:12 AM, Thaylien said:

Maybe I can explain this one for you while I'm here;

The problem that people have with Archwing mechanics being applied instead of regular warframe movement is multi-layered, because they aren't the same at all, especially not in terms of how you interact with the game.

 

 

Objectively she uses air, she summons, channels, uses air, she does not... flap her arms to generate lift or anything silly like that, in short she's a caster. Functionally she doesn't fly, she launches through the air on compressed jets of air. Lore wise all of her abilities are based on using Tenno energy, through the frame's layout, to move atmosphere. And implementation wise... no, she was designed for a game that has no aerial combat.

Thank you for giving me that feedback. ^-^ you've raised several good points.

I will confess I've never had that issue with archwing controls. as the dodge keys usually perform quite well for me, but I admit maybe I don't find the difference as noticeable due to my playstyle. ofcourse the only missions where archwing is impacted by gravity are the submersible ones and there the momentum change makes sense because water is water and not space or air. so I do not anticipate having those sort of issues on PoE because we'd be flying not swimming. I cant speak for flight in Kuva fortress missions because frankly despite searching the missions looking for it, I cannot seem to find any archwing launch points on the missions. but in the hybrid-esque missions for War within I have noticed no difference between that and normal archwing in space

In regular archwing missions, I have no issue with the high mobility and agility of archwing, aside from momentum making revives an issue for true archwing missions. as stated Titania flight locks out all those interact keys so that issue is moot with her but her flight only poses me issues with flying faster then doors respond, and occasionally the melee dash grinding titania up against surfaces causing some collision damage to the frame.

 

As far as zephyr being a bird well her passive can be treated as one of her powers, and is stated to be a direct result of the high ammount of oxium used in her construction (though with that logic vauban prime should have an anchor to keep him on any map at all. ;3) and her low gravity passive in turn is reasonable to assume ties in to how her powers continue to work so effectively. (though mostly that applies to her first two powers that actually involve being airborne.)  and it's a bit more then a helmet design to be fair, helmet to feet everything about her is birdlike, and there are plenty flightless birds as well, so I admit you have a fair point and sure, flight isn't overly necessary. And I concede that on the whole it probably wont make much of a difference to how the frame performs as is for the most part (at least in My rework, yours opens up a bit more change but the flight itself actually doesn't. bullet jumping or double jumping would be enough to be treated as airborne for an alternate casting) except occasionally maybe being able to let her line up casting easier over larger harder to cross map tiles. which given the current mechanics of tornado spawning at a fix range around zephyr herself isn't actually going to make much difference. so I concede that. though I do think it might make zephyr more fun, but fun is also deeply subjective.

And yes there are very few airborne enemies. but you are discounting raptor who hovers at about the same height as a grineer hellion, maybe a bit higher and ospreys which are mostly fragile and mostly hover a lot lower, though raptor and ospreys do move around and ospreys present a smaller target while airborne.

 

So sure maybe having zephyr fly my way might not be the best option as far as making her stronger. but her implementation as it stands is a semi-airborne frame in a game with very little allotment for aerial combat, this is true. but making her a fully ground based caster is in my opinion, an utter waste of time. cause then she's directly competing with every other caster, and frankly in that role her performance at present is as we know awful. making her modular with mechanics that vary based on being airborne or not is a good idea but it also entails a much more.. ground-up redesign of her in a way. that said I do concede willingly I find your own idea post very well thought out. I am unsure of how well that will functionally perform as maps are still dominantly indoor and close quartered. and I don't want zephyr to just be useful on the handful of map tiles with ceilings big enough to let her be useful and PoE where archwing deployment is likely still to outperform her on maneuverability and speed. and I for one prefer the more finite control of archwing flight to the much clunkier to control air dash nature of her tailwind as it is. Ofcourse I don't expect everyone to feel the same way I do, but that would be impossible, I just think more people do enjoy archwing flight or are fairly indifferent to it then they are against it. Ofcourse I can only base this on what I have seen of the playerbase's responses on region and my clanmates opinions. and the love-hate ratio for archwing seems a lot more even then people make it out to be. I don't know if I'm just having the odd luck of having a clan that mostly likes or is okay with archwing, and not being on region chat when the archwing haters speak up  but that is simply my experience.

But then the one thing we all agree on is that zephyr as she is, isn't working out. especially as divebomb is basically useless on most maptiles due to a low ceilings and height-dependent damage that even at best is far from impressive on the few map tiles that don't reset you before you reach the top of a single tailwind boost or bullet jump. Tornado's AI and spawn targeting is frankly horrific. Its damage is really not that great either but it's CC is fairly decent albeit not necessarily as good as other CC frames like vauban, so that skill does need a good bit of attention.

[Birdframe_Prime]

18 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

(though with that logic vauban prime should have an anchor to keep him on any map at all. ;3)

Common mistake there ^^ Besides the Oxium, Zephyr only has 500 Salvage to weigh her down, the rest of her parts are circuits, plastids, nano spores, a tiny chunk of rubedo and some polymer. Vauban Prime has his high Oxium count because his other parts include 16,000 salvage, 31,000 alloy plate, 9,000 cryotic and 8,000 rubedo, the oxium he has is to stop all the rest of that crushing him into the ground.

18 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

but making her a fully ground based caster is in my opinion, an utter waste of time.

In my opinion too ^^

That's the thrust of my rework, as you've read, to make sure that while she's in the air all of her abilities can still be cast at enemies where the enemies are; on the ground. Even ospreys hover so close to it that compared to Zephyr they count as ground units...

18 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

But then the one thing we all agree on is that zephyr as she is, isn't working out.

From your keyboard to DE's screen, friend ^^

[Malkavian407]

My version. But I doubt the correctness of the translation

 

[Hixlysss]

Some interesting ideas here for changing her powers over all, but not much promoting synergy between them(a design theme DE has been sticking with as of late.) So I have a few little bits to add myself~

First off I want to give her an additional 'passive' of sorts, keep her ability to 'float' but give her something else as well, namely I want her to "Hover" instead of "Aim Glide". When airborne when she ADS she hovers in place, for the duration of the aiming, rather than gliding. An addition to this would be to allow "Aviator" to function as well, as we know Aviator doesn't work on titania's ult due to coding reasons if I remember correctly, but it does work during aim gliding.

Secondly, love the idea of her power 1 and 2 combining(Tailwind/Divebomb) good job there, a fairly unified example that pretty much everyone i've talked to agrees on. How ever! I want to make a Synergy with this power and her power 3, Turbulence. If you "Gust" past enemies while Turbulence is active it causes them to spin in place with a little mini tornado for a few seconds, or simply ragdolls them, this would also apply if you "divebomb" into a group of enemies while it's active, if combined with your take of a revision Tailwind Bomb, it would knock them down and ragdoll them away a bit further. I'd also love to make this power a toggle ability, rather than duration, because having her power 1'st range affected by duration is...problematic when it comes to building for a lengthy Turbulence.

Third, I agree that she should have a flight power, but you're kinda cramming a bit much into it, making it a simple "fly state" should suffice, basically the Plains of Eidolon thing, but with synergy with other powers! While in her Fly State she can effortlessly trigger the 'divebomb' of tailwind, charging it up at will to 'dive' at enemies, or simply tapping to swoosh past them. She would need something to make it more than just a fly state...perhaps if it was more like titania's ult, where she sprouts wings of air from her back and flies around, as you kinda suggested, and summoning unique weapons. But there is an idea with her ultimate and her Fly State~

Tornado, love the idea of charging it for a single powerful tornado(But I feel like that should be more of an augment.)And Tornado USED to pick up items, but that was removed because it was...annoying. But a possible synergy with Tornado and Her "Flight" would be she could "hop" onto one of her Tornado's and manually guide it, sitting ontop of it and moving it around herself, scooping up enemies and boosting the damage of the tornado.

[PsyBaNi]

Hi, 

In my opinion zephyr is fine as she is now. she is one of the unrivaled queens of interception missions. Just the 4th needs a buff: with the aug. its dmg is 2 low and the cc is missing. without the aug.  cc is there but the area 2 pull up foes is to small to fill in a good cc roll.

Besides from that she has awesome map control.. the other aug mods are just insanly good. the Downside is just that you cant efficenly use them all at once.

i like zephy like she is. better not change her ^^ it could get worse.

like with ash unplayable frame atm

 

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 hours ago, Hixlysss said:

a design theme DE has been sticking with as of late

It's funny that, right? You know why, though, I would guess.

The recent reworks have all been because DE wanted to do the rework to the frames in order to bring a lot of attention to them right before their Prime release. They couldn't make huge changes right before the Prime, either, because that would interfere with the whole process of 'look for the problems and fix them over a series of updates after watching all the community feedback', since not only are you doing that for the main frame, you're also doing it for the buffed Prime version too. From a cynical standpoint there's the other reason... it's that if you make a major change to how the frame behaves (like Limbo), and then release the Prime? Then - of the customers that would usually pay for Prime Access - only those that like the rework will buy it, so they're losing money too.

Then again... look at where Oberon is now. He's in an amazing place as a warframe, got the jack-of-all-trades thing going on, but some unique functions that are unique when you have them in combination when the rest of what he does.

Even Hydroid, actually, while he's a bit of a marmite/vegemite frame, where you either like how he plays or don't, you have to admit that he's in a great place with how his abilities work, both individually and together.

So... what I'm trying to say is that even with the method of keeping abilities and promoting inter-ability synergy with the reworks, the frames have ended up very much improved because of it.

But who knows? Zephyr could be one of those where they think 'yeah, we had exactly the right idea to begin with, so now all we have to do is update it with newer mechanical workings', or they could be of the mind of 'yeah, what were we thinking? A 2 that directly relies on a function that is completely subjective to the map? We had that same problem with Volt! So let's do the Limbo and shift functions into her passive and free up an ability slot for something so she has more functions than she does currently, without losing anything she did before'.

We'll see soon enough. It's either going to be before Christmas or in February (they might bump up Mirage for Christmas to get the Prime Access revenue), so we don't have long to wait.