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Re-post of my Zephyr rework(update 21.5.0) Check ultimate


ObviousLee
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Hi there folks, OLee up in da hizzie to talk to you today about my favored frame, Zephyr. She's getting a rework soon, which is long overdue, however the majority of what i've seen from the community has been mild tweaks at best that somewhat center around her theme. Not saying they're bad by any sense of the word, just don't do her enough justice in my eyes.

Before i begin, lemme tell ya about my experience with good ol' birdframe.

I have 93 million affinity on her, and thats been stuck since my first forma, as i've not exceeded the affinity count on her yet, but suffice it to say i've over 100 million affinity on her. I mained her for just over two years, straight. I've taken her into every single game mode, against every single enemy, and I know what works, and doesn't work as well as the best methods to counter enemies regardless of the situation. I. Know. Zephyr.

Here are some examples of her secret goodies.

1: tailwinds distance and altitude can be manually adjusted with slides/dragon kicks. performing this action whilst on the ground(slide) will increase her tailwind height by a margin of roughly 25%(huge, right?) as well as distance traveled in horizontal flight.

2: you can manually air break out of tailwind at any time, by tapping your sprint key once during the flight.

3: modded properly, her sprint speed becomes the highest in the game, when working in tandem with jet stream.

 

Some of you might be aware of these facts, as i periodically share them in region channel whenever someone inquires, as i'm always willing to teach and help. Now then, as i've explained my experience with her, onto the overhaul.

 

First Ability: Roz(Restricted Operations Zone) Single cast  - Zephyr casts a floor of turbulent winds that affect all enemies within the area of effect, causing movement speed reduction, aim reduction, and stagger affects every 2.5 seconds within the area, while slightly buffing ally movement and melee speed by 10%-15%. This will be affected by range, and duration mods. What this ability does is give solidified cc against enemies that not only zephyr, but her teammates can effectively utilize in combat. This will be spherical similar to mag's bullet attractor

 

Second ability: Strafing Run  (Single cast)- Zephyr drops pockets of air in her wake, spread out like chaff, that upon enemies coming into range of trigger will explode, dealing moderate damage, and forced ragdoll cc, while simultaneously dropping loot. This will be affected by range and strength mods. The trigger range will be around 3 meters per air bomb that she's left behind her. This will allow her to have a nice amount of damage output, while still maintaining momentum in desired direction of travel, as well as making sure that enemies behind her aren't able to shoot her in the back. These air bombs will levitate about 3-4 feet off the ground, and have a trigger/det range of 3 meters.

Edit: The air mines will, like inaros' scarab armor, need to be charged up to avoid spam. max count is definitely up for debate, I'm thinking a cap of 6-9, specifically in groups of 3.

Third Ability. Ascension (Toggle) - Zephyr cloaks herself in channeled air and is able to take flight. The air roils over her flight surfaces that cover her body, generating lift. The lift(flight) will not engage any sort of hover mode. She's a fighter jet, not a helicopter. A new icon will be present during ascension, which will indicate how much thrust one is generating. Less thrust=less lift=descending. W will increase her thrust, S will decrease it, allowing for manual control to avoid issues regarding her mobility and flight in tight confined spaces. If her thrust falls too short, she engages into freefall, tying into her already amazing passive. Flight mode directional control will be dictated by mouse direction orientation, meaning you aim this way, she flies that way. Turning the camera around for a 180 degree look behind me moment will initiate her turning to fly in that direction but also reduce thrust to allow for tighter turns. Affected by speed mods and efficiency mods. space bar will give her an afterburn thrust, with increased energy drain. max flight speed is equal to max sprint speed. Zephyr will still be able to make full use of her equipped weapons while in Ascension. The bullet deflection will be lessened, but still present within this ability as it's a mixture of turbulance, tailwind, and divebomb.

Edit: when ascension is activated initially, it will act precisely as turbulence does right now, including its current effectiveness. Performing a bullet jump during ascensions active effect will initiate the actual flight, as opposed to pressing 3 initiating the flight itself. This gives people an option to maintain current playstyles focused around jetstream or long duration turbulence play as well as offering an option between those who wish to maintain current use, as well as those of us who wish to take to the skies. *Edit* Turbulence will function as is unless the button is held for a period of three seconds, thus activating ascension.

Collision on hard surface or enemy hitbox will trigger the divebomb attack animation, regardless of direction of travel, thus keeping the affectiveness of the tailwind/divebomb combo everyone is seeking in other reworks.

Edit: Divebomb damage would be scaled off of speed, numbers to be determined by DE or someone who could math out the mechanics.

Clarification: there will be 4 "throttle" selections. 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100% Casting ascension rockets you in the direction of your camera is facing, and tapping W will increase your thrust, thus increasing your flight speed. Rapid high degree turns, like180%, will automatically drop you to below 25% thrust, thus cancelling Ascension and engages freefall for a small window, then re-engages to the 25% mark, allowing for rapid turning and effective dogfighting maneuvers. *Edit* 25% throttle is warframe base sprint speed at jog. Meaning that the speed your warframe jogs at when moving forward and not sprinting. This allows for navigation through doors and narrow hallways, as it's a fairly low base speed of travel, but can ramp up to a high rate of travel based on the skill of the user. This all allows for varied use of the same ability.

Fourth Ability - Maelstrom (Toggle): Zephyr casts a single tornado that will have massive draw range to suck in enemies. Zephyr and friends will then be able to fiire at said tornado for up to a maximum of 5 shots per team member, which adds 10% of their weapons damage output to the tornado capping out at a maximum of 50% total weapon damage output from the weapon that fired the shot, giving the tornado CC, better control in regards to enemy seeking and drawing in, as well as an added bonus of actual damage output that the entire team can participate on. This will be affected by strength mods, range mods, and efficiency mods. *edit* As of update 21.5.0 Hydroids undertow does the following: http://imgur.com/a/WXvSu

Seems Rather similar, wouldn't you say?

 

Edit: Alternative numbers, total damage from 5 shots per weapon per team member divided by half, then divided again by total number of enemies caught within tornado.

Bear in mind, this is effectively 50% of the total weapon damage output for the entire team, meaning that if 4 vaykor heks are pumping out 40k dps each, thats 160k dps divided by half, then divided again by enemies caught in the tornado, giving variabe amounts of dps as DoT.

Edited by ObviousLee
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Why remove her Tailwind ability since its one of her main mobility skills? And yes, even with Parkour 2.0 its still very useful.

25 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

Second ability: Strafing Run  (Single cast)- Zephyr drops pockets of air in her wake, spread out like chaff, that upon enemies coming into range of trigger will explode, dealing moderate damage, and forced ragdoll cc, while simultaneously dropping loot. This will be affected by range and strength mods. The trigger range will be around 3 meters per air bomb that she's left behind her. This will allow her to have a nice amount of damage output, while still maintaining momentum in desired direction of travel, as well as making sure that enemies behind her aren't able to shoot her in the back. These air bombs will levitate about 3-4 feet off the ground, and have a trigger/det range of 3 meters.

Edit: The air mines will, like inaros' scarab armor, need to be charged up to avoid spam. max count is definitely up for debate, I'm thinking a cap of 6-9, specifically in groups of 3.

Whats this? "Wile Simultaneously dropping loot"? You trying to make her into a Nekros of some type?

29 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

Third Ability. Ascension (Toggle) - Zephyr cloaks herself in channeled air and is able to take flight. The air roils over her flight surfaces that cover her body, generating lift. The lift(flight) will not engage any sort of hover mode. She's a fighter jet, not a helicopter. A new icon will be present during ascension, which will indicate how much thrust one is generating. Less thrust=less lift=descending. W will increase her thrust, S will decrease it, allowing for manual control to avoid issues regarding her mobility and flight in tight confined spaces. If her thrust falls too short, she engages into freefall, tying into her already amazing passive. Flight mode directional control will be dictated by mouse direction orientation, meaning you aim this way, she flies that way. Turning the camera around for a 180 degree look behind me moment will initiate her turning to fly in that direction but also reduce thrust to allow for tighter turns. Affected by speed mods and efficiency mods. space bar will give her an afterburn thrust, with increased energy drain. max flight speed is equal to max sprint speed. Zephyr will still be able to make full use of her equipped weapons while in Ascension. The bullet deflection will be lessened, but still present within this ability as it's a mixture of turbulance, tailwind, and divebomb.

Dont touch Turbulence, its good as it is. Just give it some form of Synergy with Tailwind and whatever skill replaces her (2).

31 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

Fourth Ability - Maelstrom (Toggle): Zephyr casts a single tornado that will have massive draw range to suck in enemies. Zephyr and friends will then be able to fiire at said tornado for up to a maximum of 5 shots per team member, which adds 10% of their weapons damage output to the tornado capping out at a maximum of 50% total weapon damage output from the weapon that fired the shot, giving the tornado CC, better control in regards to enemy seeking and drawing in, as well as an added bonus of actual damage output that the entire team can participate on. This will be affected by strength mods, range mods, and efficiency mods. 

Edit: Alternative numbers, total damage from 5 shots per weapon per team member divided by half, then divided again by total number of enemies caught within tornado.

Bear in mind, this is effectively 50% of the total weapon damage output for the entire team, meaning that if 4 vaykor heks are pumping out 40k dps each, thats 160k dps divided by half, then divided again by enemies caught in the tornado, giving variabe amounts of dps as DoT.

If you really main her then you should know she is not a Damage focused frame and her 4th skill is mostly ment for crowd controlling and not dealing damage.

Tho i would prefer one single large tornado instead of four small ones, the idea of turning her fourth into a killing skill really gets me triggered. Also i would very much like for them to remove any interaction that Hurricane has with own or allied projectiles so that whatever gets pinned to the ceiling could be killed with ease.

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Just now, BiancaRoughfin said:

Why remove her Tailwind ability since its one of her main mobility skills? And yes, even with Parkour 2.0 its still very useful.

because it's redundant in that although it meshes with the parkour system fairly well, it could be better. This is my suggestion on making it better.

Just now, BiancaRoughfin said:

Whats this? "Wile Simultaneously dropping loot"? You trying to make her into a Nekros of some type?

Dropping loot, instead of sending it flying with the ragdolling enemies.

Just now, BiancaRoughfin said:

Dont touch Turbulence, its good as it is. Just give it some form of Synergy with Tailwind and whatever skill replaces her (2).

turbulence is her ONLY good skill. adding a flight mode TO it, only makes it better. The only reason people don't want turbulence touched is because it's her only 100% viable skill.

Just now, BiancaRoughfin said:

If you really main her then you should know she is not a Damage focused frame and her 4th skill is mostly ment for crowd controlling and not dealing damage.

You're implying that since I want her to have some form of damage output that I don't main zephyr. a quick peek at my profile disproves this.

Just now, BiancaRoughfin said:

Tho i would prefer one single large tornado instead of four small ones, the idea of turning her fourth into a killing skill really gets me triggered. Also i would very much like for them to remove any interaction that Hurricane has with own or allied projectiles so that whatever gets pinned to the ceiling could be killed with ease.

A single tornado would be a massive QoL buff, especially considering that with my suggestion she'd be able to turn off the ability when it's no longer needed.

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10 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

because it's redundant in that although it meshes with the parkour system fairly well, it could be better. This is my suggestion on making it better.

It meshes greatly with Parkour because she gets lots of momentum from it. Usually i am the one who flies ahead or backtracks in maps to ress fallen teammates and Tailwind is what helps me get there fast or in time in case my teammates are to far apart. Not to mention in some situations like hallways enemies some times fill up the path between me and my objective so Tailwind helps me get pass them and open a passage for teammates.

10 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

Dropping loot, instead of sending it flying with the ragdolling enemies.

Only skill so far i have seen that throws loot around is Vauban`s Vortex. I dont think DE likes making more skills that do that after the backlash they received.

10 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

turbulence is her ONLY good skill. adding a flight mode TO it, only makes it better. The only reason people don't want turbulence touched is because it's her only 100% viable skill.

And its a good skill as it is so it doesnt need any other effects.

10 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

A single tornado would be a massive QoL buff, especially considering that with my suggestion she'd be able to turn off the ability when it's no longer needed.

You never stated this would be a Toggle skill...

Edited by BiancaRoughfin
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3 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I can't wait to debate this....AGAIN.

But *sigh* starting your thread again by boasting your affinity once more. It's almost like we didn't have a discussion about this. 

Ah well. Feedback incoming soon.

pointing out ample experience is not boasting unless it's hinted that anyone with less than the amount I posses has no room to argue.

4 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

It meshes greatly with Parkour because she gets lots of momentum from it. Usually i am the one who flies ahead or backtracks in maps to ress fallen teammates and Tailwind is what helps me get there fast or in time in case my teammates are to far apart. Not to mention in some situations like hallways enemies some times fill up the path between me and my objective so Tailwind helps me get pass them and open a passage for teammates.

 

Although I agree there's synergy between tailwind and parkour, however with a flight mode replacing tailwind that entire issue of having to use tailwind to circumvent congested hallways entirely.

Edited by ObviousLee
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well ...this is just a 2-cents of mine ... just take it as such

 i agree with some points ive seen but wanted to throw this out ... maybe it has merit ...or can help

lots of people like to think zephyr cant do damage, which isnt really the case ..if you know the trick.... which ive even explained before but thats here nor there ...

the fact is most zephyr users however are focused on CC , maneuverability , and her damage resistance to projectiles 

which is the big 3 factors of her current kit

one of the things i suggested in a rework i designed was to morph 1&2 into a dash  system like limbos rift walk . aiming i know can be a pain but think of it this way  

in air use crouch button -roll- and her old 1 is cast without energy drain , aim down and her 2 is cast at no energy cost 

this would keep her mobility factor and then allow for 1&2 to then get new powers assigned to them as 1&2 become air dash/divebomb depending on direction aimed . probably have a small cooldown 

so just a thought

> ~ <   

Edited by (XB1)EternalDrk Mako
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There is a lot of skills that could use reworks, Zephyr does indeed suffer from outdated abilities with parkour 2.0 AND Titania doing all of what Zephyr can do against enemies better. No frame should be outright better than another, they should have their own strengths and weaknesses compared to everyone else.
Flight mode seems to be what zephyr could use, after all, she's supposed to be a bird but titania can fly and zephyr just soars.

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1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

turbulence is her ONLY good skill. adding a flight mode TO it, only makes it better. The only reason people don't want turbulence touched is because it's her only 100% viable skill.

It is her best skill. Fair and away. Arguably one of the SINGLE BEST ABILITIES IN THE GAME, you can't add to it unless you give it some sort of balanced debuff. 

 

2 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

Fourth Ability - Maelstrom (Toggle)

I like most of the idea, the damage addition is.... overpowered.... Throw in a tonkor shot or some other high hitting weapon and all of a sudden it has massive CC AND damage. Personally would like to see her gain more reliable cc and maybe a status proc. More of a heavy support ability to be honest. Damage being minimal, as it is. I do like the big tornado idea but I've stated as much in a rework proposal I've made before. I'll link an updated version below (includes 2 rework ideas, 1 includes a flight idea). And I don't like the name, maelstroms are a water phenomenon. So I agree with Thaylien here alot.

 

As an overview for the entire rework, you're no reworking her. You're breaking her. You're doing this in two ways: 1-You're not considering much what Zephyr is currently, you're introducing an entirely new frame, the old Zephyr is essentially gone, not updated; 2- Every single ability is pretty much a 3rd or 4th ability potential, and everyone over powered. With this particular rework you'd find 75% Zephyr players in the game. The goal isn't to make her better than everyone else, it's to make her as good as everyone else. 

I do like the ideas you're suggesting, but I feel you need to step back and see her for how she is a whole. And I don't care how much affinity or hours or anything else if you don't consider the current Zephyr. Look at any other rework, DE will NOT simply throw out the current version of the frame. Our best bet is to make meaningful tweaks to existing abilities and limit the creation of new ones. 

Here's my rework idea, I have two rework ideas, so I encourage you to take a look and leave some feedback.

 

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Oh hi again, it's this one... well, a little bump with the comment, but I'm fairly sure I argued the arguments before and you still haven't solved any of them now.

I'm away from the end of this week, back again at the end of the month, but if you must fence, I'll fence for as long as I can.

You're taking away her mobility cast and giving her a zone defense cast, only useful when staying in the area. You're taking away her instant light CC cast and giving her a potential mine-layer style of CC that cannot be used in direct combat. You're trying to overpower Turbulence beyond all recognition by tacking in an entire extra ability into the cast, not to mention a toggle one (toggles on frames with low base energy and active casts are more trouble than they're worth) and one that's pretty much only every useful when she has vertical room (which is being improved by the DEvs, but hundreds of tiles in the existing sets have reset-gate ceilings instead of height limits, and some of those are at absurdly low levels, not to mention that half of the tiles in game have at least areas if not the entire tile with a only ten to fifteen feet ceilings) and in what way does having the explosion from Dive Bomb triggering on the ceiling, wall or any random pole you run into preserving the function? Turbulence is one of the most heavily patched abilities in the game, DE have had ample time over three years to add to it, they haven't. And finally, stealing a scaling-damage Vortex from Vauban won't pass as an ability, even if the animation and precise method of how it ragdolls enemies is different.

Begin your reply, dear fencer.

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How does this even resemble Zephyr?

Did you mention you were ex military at some point because that's the only reason I can imagine you having for wanting to turn Zephyr into this. 

It's like you saw Zephyr and thought, bird..jet.. close enough and then threw in flight simulator as a rework.

The same problem as illustrated above and in the old thread still persist and you've almost completely ignored or forgot about the original criticisms and decided to throw this out again. 

Modify your approach to the rework, being modest, true to the role of the frame in it's existing formula and your vision of how to improve on those skills which you feel are being misrepresented.

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4 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

How does this even resemble Zephyr?

Did you mention you were ex military at some point because that's the only reason I can imagine you having for wanting to turn Zephyr into this. 

It's like you saw Zephyr and thought, bird..jet.. close enough and then threw in flight simulator as a rework.

The same problem as illustrated above and in the old thread still persist and you've almost completely ignored or forgot about the original criticisms and decided to throw this out again. 

Modify your approach to the rework, being modest, true to the role of the frame in it's existing formula and your vision of how to improve on those skills which you feel are being misrepresented.

true to the theme of the frame....hrmmm....well we got more reliable crowd control, some self defense, a merging of tailwind and divebomb combined into turbulence, aaaaand downward scaling dps for the ult, as well as a toggle to add more control to the ability. what exactly am I not getting?

improve on the skills that are being misrepresented: all of them. The frame has a singular, reliable ability. That is a problem. The frame has negligible damage output on all fronts aside from weaponry, that is a problem.

This is, simply put, what I feel she should be. or closer to what would currently fit within the games theme.

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20 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Oh hi again, it's this one... well, a little bump with the comment, but I'm fairly sure I argued the arguments before and you still haven't solved any of them now.

I'm away from the end of this week, back again at the end of the month, but if you must fence, I'll fence for as long as I can.

You're taking away her mobility cast and giving her a zone defense cast, only useful when staying in the area. You're taking away her instant light CC cast and giving her a potential mine-layer style of CC that cannot be used in direct combat. You're trying to overpower Turbulence beyond all recognition by tacking in an entire extra ability into the cast, not to mention a toggle one (toggles on frames with low base energy and active casts are more trouble than they're worth) and one that's pretty much only every useful when she has vertical room (which is being improved by the DEvs, but hundreds of tiles in the existing sets have reset-gate ceilings instead of height limits, and some of those are at absurdly low levels, not to mention that half of the tiles in game have at least areas if not the entire tile with a only ten to fifteen feet ceilings) and in what way does having the explosion from Dive Bomb triggering on the ceiling, wall or any random pole you run into preserving the function? Turbulence is one of the most heavily patched abilities in the game, DE have had ample time over three years to add to it, they haven't. And finally, stealing a scaling-damage Vortex from Vauban won't pass as an ability, even if the animation and precise method of how it ragdolls enemies is different.

Begin your reply, dear fencer.

First off, this isn't a duel. So please drop that mindset. We aren't competing, we aren't arguing. we are presenting what we feel would be the best options for a rework. This is mine. Now then, allow me to address your points. Instant cc on an ability that is seldom used, by a frame that's seldom used? That's what Roz replaces. More reliable cc right off the bat, instead of cc that requires on to be in a specific state(off the ground) to even be usable. Mine layer? you're staying that dropping mines in a group of enemies, knocking them off their feet and sending them careening into surfaces, isn't combat viable? Sonicor says hello. Now, I've been pondering on what debuf could be given to turbulence in relation to the flight mode I've come up with and I think I have something close to a good idea: standard press 3 to activate turbulence, hold 3 to disengage turbulence and engage flight mode. Energy reserves for toggle? Simple: buff her energy reserves. Then again, Zephyr and Titania have the exact same energy amount unmodded(150) and yet with a primed flow and efficiency mods I can do all of law of retribution(nightmare as well) AND jordas verdict in her ultimate for the entirety of the game???

23 hours ago, wezling said:

It is her best skill. Fair and away. Arguably one of the SINGLE BEST ABILITIES IN THE GAME, you can't add to it unless you give it some sort of balanced debuff. 

 

I like most of the idea, the damage addition is.... overpowered.... Throw in a tonkor shot or some other high hitting weapon and all of a sudden it has massive CC AND damage. Personally would like to see her gain more reliable cc and maybe a status proc. More of a heavy support ability to be honest. Damage being minimal, as it is. I do like the big tornado idea but I've stated as much in a rework proposal I've made before. I'll link an updated version below (includes 2 rework ideas, 1 includes a flight idea). And I don't like the name, maelstroms are a water phenomenon. So I agree with Thaylien here alot.

 

As an overview for the entire rework, you're no reworking her. You're breaking her. You're doing this in two ways: 1-You're not considering much what Zephyr is currently, you're introducing an entirely new frame, the old Zephyr is essentially gone, not updated; 2- Every single ability is pretty much a 3rd or 4th ability potential, and everyone over powered. With this particular rework you'd find 75% Zephyr players in the game. The goal isn't to make her better than everyone else, it's to make her as good as everyone else. 

I do like the ideas you're suggesting, but I feel you need to step back and see her for how she is a whole. And I don't care how much affinity or hours or anything else if you don't consider the current Zephyr. Look at any other rework, DE will NOT simply throw out the current version of the frame. Our best bet is to make meaningful tweaks to existing abilities and limit the creation of new ones. 

Here's my rework idea, I have two rework ideas, so I encourage you to take a look and leave some feedback.

 

The thing to note here on the damage for the ultimate is that it scales downwards, not up. For every enemy caught in the tornado, your overall damage application to all the enemies within the tornado, goes down. So, your maximum dps for the ult is when the tornado holds a single enemy. The more enemies added, the less damage it does, but it still does damage, more so than it does currently. The numbers themselves can be adjusted, as it's just a rough idea.

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