MR 17 Test

[Mizque]

Just some things I've noticed as I don't wanna 'cheese' it with Ember or Volt, or their primes.  Going into this let me say that I have indeed failed it, multiple times for actual rank up, but in practice pass it more than 80% of the time, and my understanding of 'mastery tests' is that they are supposed to test your skill as a player, not on if you have warframe/weapon x, or your sheer dumb luck.

• RNG element of the orbs: not bad in theory/on paper, but in practice terrible for a skill test (failing because it refuses to spawn them anywhere but the two farthest from each other points is frustrating)
• CC enemies: not that big a deal unless there is a VERY tight time constraint, it should be either tar moas OR ancients, not both (seriously, got hooked when the ancient was 'downed' from a blast proc from slam attack, pulled into tar and stop knocked down as I was almost fully upped by a moa, then hooked again, not something I can do anything about, but still a thing that happens)
• Unreliable orbs: Compounding the first issue, sometimes they do register the hits properly and pop right as soon as you melee them, others they don't and you have to swing again and hope it pops
• Map isn't Parkour 2.0 compliant: Why have those big pillars around the parts of the map, implying you can use them for movement when you cannot, just remove them entirely, or allow players to parkour up them
• Collisionless map parts: I understand you want things to look nice, but, when testing a players skill, clear, defined edges are the ideal, in a game with ledge grabbing, all those floating fidely bits that you can't grab or phase through don't help, infact they make it frustrating when trying to navigate around the map as sometimes you will/wont fall when you don't/do want too.
• Camera start focus: This here, this right here is the biggy, for the love of GOD make it spawn you with the camera behind you for normal movement, not pointing toward you with your back against a fall off so you have to spend precious start time orienting your camera properly so you don't accidentally fall off at the start

If DE notices this that'd be awesome, but seriously, this 'Mastery' test, doesn't test your mastery of the game, it merely tests if you have Ember or Volt and their Prime variants.

[paul5473]

Yeah there are so many that can be cheesed MR21 test is the same as this one, the arch wing one can just be cheese with the itzal and a speed mod. I do feel that some of these needs to be reworked to test the player and not because you have the mods and frames.

[Manyc]

Here's a video example of MR 17 Test made with starting gear.

Spoiler

 

I don't have my own personal recorded attempt but to test & challenge myself I made MR tests wearting nothing but Excalibur, Karak Wraith, Lex Prime and Prisma Skana all unmodded. (2 lazy to get real starting gear to use it to challenge myself but still a greater challenge).

17 was hard but I managed, the defence ones were much harder imo.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Manyc

[Mizque]

Just now, paul5473 said:

Yeah there are so many that can be cheesed MR21 test is the same as this one, the arch wing one can just be cheese with the itzal and a speed mod. I do feel that some of these needs to be reworked to test the player and not because you have the mods and frames.

Exactly, like, it doesn't mater how skilled you are, if your on a time limit dependant on smacking McGuffin X, and where McGuffin X is at is dependant on RNG, your not testing skill, your testing a persons sheer dumb luck on a given run

[Airwolfen]

You can use them to cheeze the test but they are by far not required. Like the player making video's for the Wiki uses only the basic excal, braton, lato, and skana.

[Mizque]

1 minute ago, Manyc said:

Here's a video example of MR 17 Test made with starting gear.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I don't have my own personal recorded attempt but to test & challenge myself I made MR tests wearting nothing but Excalibur, Karak Wraith, Lex Prime and Prisma Skana all unmodded. (2 lazy to get real starting gear to use it to challenge myself but still a greater challenge).

17 was hard but I managed, the defence ones were much harder imo.

 

Just now, Airwolfen said:

You can use them to cheeze the test but they are by far not required. Like the player making video's for the Wiki uses only the basic excal, braton, lato, and skana.

Yes, but in that video, I've noticed the orbs are spawning fairly close to him for the most part, and in my experience, in practice runs it tends to do that, however, as soon as I do the actual test they start spawning on opposite sides of them map fairly frequently meaning I spend almost all time running back and forth, slowly loosing a second or two each orb, more if I kill anything until I run out of time.

 

Testing some one's Mastery shouldn't be determined by sheer RNG

[Manyc]

Adapting to RNG is supposed to be part of your mastery over the game. Are you 100% confident on your parkour speed and efficiency? Make sure you look around and compare, for example, to speed runners. Knowing how to move and to where is part of it as it makes your life easier and makes you survive in quite a few situations in harder gameplay.

[Mizque]

Considering I regularly help with 1hr+ survivals 60+ wave defenses I'd say I'm decently skilled at some of the 'harder' gameplay (3 C rotations for old void key system was a pain but doable) however, no mater how skilled you are at a game being shafted because RNG decides that this time it's going to bend you over it's knee isn't something the player can help.

 

At the time of the most recent 'orbs on opposite sides' or rather 'rngesus wanted to bend you over' runs, I was running ivara, with 1.33 sprint speed, which is not a 'slow' speed by any means, and had placed dash lines as best I could between the levels (however that's not exactly the 'best' it helps but considering the way the map is designed it derps, alot) and the things you should be able to parkour off of to get around faster as 'slick' and you cannot do such on a number of them (ie all the pillars).  Adapting to some RNG is fine, but being tested on if RNGesus has decided to be nice or not, isn't.

[Manyc]

Bullet jump to double jump mixed with aim gliding is so much faster.

[Airwolfen]

2 minutes ago, Mizque said:

Considering I regularly help with 1hr+ survivals 60+ wave defenses I'd say I'm decently skilled at some of the 'harder' gameplay (3 C rotations for old void key system was a pain but doable) however, no mater how skilled you are at a game being shafted because RNG decides that this time it's going to bend you over it's knee isn't something the player can help.

 

At the time of the most recent 'orbs on opposite sides' or rather 'rngesus wanted to bend you over' runs, I was running ivara, with 1.33 sprint speed, which is not a 'slow' speed by any means, and had placed dash lines as best I could between the levels (however that's not exactly the 'best' it helps but considering the way the map is designed it derps, alot) and the things you should be able to parkour off of to get around faster as 'slick' and you cannot do such on a number of them (ie all the pillars).  Adapting to some RNG is fine, but being tested on if RNGesus has decided to be nice or not, isn't.

I dont even build sprint speen anymore. Running is too damn slow compared to bulletjump chains. Sure I use sprint speed on Ivara, but that is because you cant bulletjump in prowl.

[WhiteMarker]

38 minutes ago, Mizque said:

RNG element of the orbs: not bad in theory/on paper, but in practice terrible for a skill test (failing because it refuses to spawn them anywhere but the two farthest from each other points is frustrating)

Here we go again.
If you are SKILLED, you have no problems dealing with the placement of the orbs.
There is nothing bad about the RNG-element...

[Mizque]

3 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

I dont even build sprint speen anymore. Running is too damn slow compared to bulletjump chains. Sure I use sprint speed on Ivara, but that is because you cant bulletjump in prowl.

Considering you can't sprint in Prowl either, that's moot

 

3 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

Here we go again.
If you are SKILLED, you have no problems dealing with the placement of the orbs.
There is nothing bad about the RNG-element...

 

Alright, so lets say you were being tested at cooking and had x amount of time to complete each step, but, you'd not be given access to all the tools at your disposal, nor the ingredients right away, instead every time 25% of the time you had passed, you'd be told where the next thing you needed was, and upon getting that thing you needed you'd be given a little more time to do your test.

 

Also: I love how every one here is only commenting about the RNG element portion of this, and not ANY of the other points

[WhiteMarker]

1 minute ago, Mizque said:

Alright, so lets say you were being tested at cooking and had x amount of time to complete each step, but, you'd not be given access to all the tools at your disposal, nor the ingredients right away, instead every time 25% of the time you had passed, you'd be told where the next thing you needed was, and upon getting that thing you needed you'd be given a little more time to do your test.

Yeah... this would be a crazy test. But still, if you passed it, it would show how skilled you are.

Let me ask you this:
Did you attend school? Did you learn something at school?
What did school teach you? Did school show you every situation, that can occure in your life? I bet it didn't.
School showed you some tricks. And now you are living your life using all those tricks to handle all the situations occuring randomly.
Or do you want to tell us, if something unexpected happens to you, you just sit down and cry about RNG? Surely not. You stand on your feet and make things happen.

And that's, what Skill is all about. It's about you ability to read a situation and react to it. It's about dealing with RNG.
But hey... if you want the game to be even easier then it is already, then go for it.

7 minutes ago, Mizque said:

Also: I love how every one here is only commenting about the RNG element portion of this, and not ANY of the other points

What do you want to hear about all the other points?
Just as said: Deal with it. It's really not that difficult.
The only thing that could be a bug, is the orbs not registering the hit. But you have no prove for that. And it's not really a bug-report, what you did here. So there is this.

[Mizque]

1 minute ago, WhiteMarker said:

Yeah... this would be a crazy test. But still, if you passed it, it would show how skilled you are.

Let me ask you this:
Did you attend school? Did you learn something at school?
What did school teach you? Did school show you every situation, that can occure in your life? I bet it didn't.
School showed you some tricks. And now you are living your life using all those tricks to handle all the situations occuring randomly.
Or do you want to tell us, if something unexpected happens to you, you just sit down and cry about RNG? Surely not. You stand on your feet and make things happen.

And that's, what Skill is all about. It's about you ability to read a situation and react to it. It's about dealing with RNG.
But hey... if you want the game to be even easier then it is already, then go for it.

What do you want to hear about all the other points?
Just as said: Deal with it. It's really not that difficult.
The only thing that could be a bug, is the orbs not registering the hit. But you have no prove for that. And it's not really a bug-report, what you did here. So there is this.

Actually I have submitted bug reports on that, just never get any responses from DE.

School teaches you things sure but in real life things don't just randomly pop into existence like they do in this test so your 'school teaches' bit doesn't really contribute anything.

Also, I'm getting the tone from your posts that your trying to veil a 'get good' thing in form of 'critisism' but your honestly not being constructive in the slightest.

You also failed to touch on the map edges not being properly defined, the lack of ability to use the pillars for parkour at all, camera start focus, or cc lock during the skill test, but thank you for showing me the kind of player you are :)

[(PSN)HarryMuff]

"Cheesing" is taking advantage of exploits and/or bugs. Using equipment provided in-game is not. Finding a frame or weapon that makes things easier is simply using your brain and the tools at your disposal.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

1 hour ago, Mizque said:

• Camera start focus: This here, this right here is the biggy, for the love of GOD make it spawn you with the camera behind you for normal movement, not pointing toward you with your back against a fall off so you have to spend precious start time orienting your camera properly so you don't accidentally fall off at the start

Really?  That's the "biggy" complaint you have?  That it takes you time to swing your camera, never mind the fact that you'll have to swing it towards the first orb anyway?  If it is really that much of an inconvenience to move your camera, then how do you get through normal play?

[Airwolfen]

Do a normal jump off the map edge, look up, bullet jump.

Now you no longer need either walls nor ledges to get around

[Mizque]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)HarryMuff said:

"Cheesing" is taking advantage of exploits and/or bugs. Using equipment provided in-game is not. Finding a frame or weapon that makes things easier is simply using your brain and the tools at your disposal.

"In a gaming scene the word cheese is used to describe strategies or ways of playing that are really powerful and do not require much skill from the players side at the same time. The term is widely used both in video games and tabletop games alike."  Cheesing has nothing to do with exploits or bugs exclusively.  Super Jumps in Halo 2 were exploits, but weren't considered 'cheesing' due to the skill required to pull them off.

 

To the Xbox One user: in a time trial, every little bit of time helps, and having to waste any of it to fix something that shouldn't be the case in the first place is just poor design decisions, and isn't just exclusive to the MR 17 test, but an overall problem in the game (spawning in, facing the wrong direction/against a drop off)

 

5 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

Do a normal jump off the map edge, look up, bullet jump.

Now you no longer need either walls nor ledges to get around

Yes, and that does work, however the point of parkour 2.0 was to add more ways to get around, not limit people to spam bullet jumping, and having to unlearn using pillars to get up areas for one MR test is counter productive/intuitive after the amount of time spent learning to reflexively use wall jumps/climbs to get around

[Manyc]

We get it, you don't want to cheese. But you've got to use all the basic mechanics available to you as efficient and as effective as possible.

A video was posted showing it is possible to not cheese it, and the RNG element is the only thing that could justify anything here, but still it's also a mechanic you have to learn to survive against.

I told you I made it with an Unmodded warframe, ofc you're free to not trust me, but do I really need to create evidence?

[Mizque]

36 minutes ago, Manyc said:

We get it, you don't want to cheese. But you've got to use all the basic mechanics available to you as efficient and as effective as possible.

A video was posted showing it is possible to not cheese it, and the RNG element is the only thing that could justify anything here, but still it's also a mechanic you have to learn to survive against.

I told you I made it with an Unmodded warframe, ofc you're free to not trust me, but do I really need to create evidence?

I'm not saying you couldn't do it in a 'blank' frame, however, a 'Mastery' test should be so heavily determined by the RNG element as this one is, look at the mr test where you gotta go through an obstical course while shooting targets, that one is still challenging, even with static locations of the targets and is based entirely on skill, no RNG to determine things

[Manyc]

1 minute ago, Mizque said:

I'm not saying you couldn't do it in a 'blank' frame, however, a 'Mastery' test should be so heavily determined by the RNG element as this one is, look at the mr test where you gotta go through an obstical course while shooting targets, that one is still challenging, even with static locations of the targets and is based entirely on skill, no RNG to determine things

The whole game has RNG elements relatively everywhere. Live with it, adapt. It's part of the game. You've got to master reacting to Random elements, just like IRL. That is Mastery over movement and distance covering. One moment you got a teammate downed on 1 corner of the map, next thing you know there's another down on the other limit.

[Mizque]

34 minutes ago, Manyc said:

The whole game has RNG elements relatively everywhere. Live with it, adapt. It's part of the game. You've got to master reacting to Random elements, just like IRL. That is Mastery over movement and distance covering. One moment you got a teammate downed on 1 corner of the map, next thing you know there's another down on the other limit.

The thing with that this is about a game, not RL, random things happen IRL sure, but they aren't just 'poof I'm here' most the time there's quite a bit of context clues about what will likely happen outside of games of chance.  And usually in missions people tend to naturally try to stay close to each other and getting some one up from downed has more time than this 'challenge' so even that's not a good comparison, not to mention, you can see the health bars of your team mates so you can, again, have a context clue about them likely going down soon, if you pay attention, or better yet, if they...yann....communicate

[WhiteMarker]

Just now, Mizque said:

The thing with that this is about a game, not RL, random things happen IRL sure, but they aren't just 'poof I'm here' most the time there's quite a bit of context clues about what will likely happen outside of games of chance. 

Do you have a drivers licence?
So, if something happens? Let's say a child runs in front of your car. There was likely no clue.
You just keep on driving? You will kill the child? Because RNG messed with you right here?
I'm not like you thinking I know you. But I think, you would hit the brakes.

So yeah, there are unexpected things that happen to you IRL. Do you really want to tell us, you know everything in beforehand? But why do we talk about the Mr-test then?
Or do you crawl under your bed, if something unexpected happens?

[Mizque]

Usually there CONTEXT CLUES in your environment (as I JUST @(*()$ SAID SO LEARN TO BLOODY READ) about things that could/might happen around you in the world.  You know, like when you see say, a shockwave moa rush up then stop, you know it's probably going to try to stop.  You don't have to think about it, the context clues and your past experience tell you 'hey I've encountered x before, it means y' and your brain just instantly shortcuts the x into making you react to the y before the y even happens.  Completely random RNG for a key element to a 'skill' test does not do any of that, hell an easy fix for the problem would be that the 'orb' could spawn in one of four 'zones' on the map, every second before is spawns a 'zone' it wouldn't spawn in looses it's markings that it's a potential zone.  It keeps the RNG and actually gives players a context to work with instead of sprinting around like a chicken with it's head cut off hoping it's not going to spawn it on the opposite end of the map.