Chains of Harrow: Update 21.5.0

[Culaio]

what big change this update bringed ? I mean its xx.5 update, which always bringed something meaningful to game, like for example, 20.5 given us:

Separate Armor & Syandana customization

Multiplayer Captura & More

Global Chat Filters

18.5 given us frame inaros with its quest and new enemies

so why this xx.5 is so empty ? its on level of normal updates...

[Xyhon]

3 minutes ago, Raxekem said:

Depends on your comp really. I'm sure there are ways to use undertow (if buffed to a sufficient amound of range can be useful to lock down enemies for your team to shoot.

No, because this is swarm/horde game, and you rarely fight one enemy. And you can kill enemies faster than "drowning them" and waiting for s... to happen. Really, there are many frames that do damage better. Hydroid was supposed to be support/CC frame, not a pure damage dealer who sits in a puddle for a whole day. It's boring, tedious, and requires quirks that are not best for this type of game.

[Baterial]

[Boboberto]

 

51 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

Hydroids role is to be a fun and active way to use the power of water and swashbuckling themes to take on enemies. 

 

Why is undertow, one of the most -if not the most- boring abilities in the game, being the center of the rework?

[Sinnjid]

Really? Can we see Hydroid's powers do something other than the underwhelming things they do now? I'd like to not have his least interesting ability, turning into a puddle to wait as things eventually die, be the strongest thing Hydroid has to offer. What ever happened to the power of waterfalls and tidal waves? Why can't Hydroid wield the monstrously destructive force of water to its absolute max? It seems like Hydroid will be stuck with just beefed up numbers for silly and awkward powers for the rest of his existence. Also, Hydroid's tentacle swarm sounds almost, if not completely identical. Additionally, instead of making it sound stronger, why not make the ability actually stronger? I'll take an ugly-sounding effective power over a worthless light show with cool sounds any day of the week.

Oh, and the Panthera's weird change still hasn't taken effect yet, (which can clearly be shown by searching for the explosion radius mod, Firestorm, while upgrading the weapon, and having no results turn up, even though the player may own several copies of the mod,) even though this was supposed to happen, as stated in Hotfix 21.0.9 on July 17.

Oh, and when is that Detron fix coming? I don't get why the normal one is better, even when the MR requirement is higher for the Mara variant. 

Panthera Change:

• Panthera Alt-Fire will now benefit from weapon explosion radius Mods.

[Telogor]

Quote

Undertow now deals Impact damage towards submerged enemies.

What

the actual heck

Give us back our Finisher damage!

[Kithawk]

1st Power....this may be my favorite ability. If you want to buff it then my request would be to change the original duration from 5 to 10 or change the range from 10 to 20 or some combination of both. Keep the modification to double the damage and duration for double the energy cost. Although, I'd love to see that original energy cost lowered from 25 to 20 so it would cost 40 energy for a charged barrage. Those changes would make this a true buff.

2nd Power....As has been noted before compared to Rhino's Charge this ability requires 50 rather than 25 energy. It does have a 6m radius instead of 2m and a basic travel of 30m instead of 12m so effectively it has 180m squared effective area rather than 24m squared for Rhino. This is pretty nice but by no means guarantees your going to hit 7-8 times the number of enemies. Rhino does lower his energy cost on subsequent charges to only 50% then 25% of the original cost or a mere 6.25 energy. On top of that his range is increased by 50% and the damage by 400%. That puts the damage comparison at 600 for Hydroid and 2600 for Rhino. These facts makes Rhino's ability more useful for hitting groups of enemies that may be spread out in different directions. Additionally as a result on an energy to damage comparison Rhino's charge is much more cost effective, 35 times more effective in fact. I'd suggest some combination of three things. 1st a lowering of the original energy cost to at most 30. 2nd a major damage boost to at least 1500. Then most importantly some unique major effects that make it worthwhile, after all we don't want to just replicate Rhino's ability, effects like enemies are left in a pool after the Surge for 10 seconds the pool applies the same damage as Hydroids normal undertow. Keeping in mind Rhino's Charge has opportunities for bonus damage or stuns depending on synergies with his other abilities.

3rd Power...I like the new connections of Hydroids Undertow with his other abilities. I do feel the range needs to be restored to something at least closer to the original 18m, 15m at least and the damage could be ramped up as well. I don't think it needs to apply huge damage since this is a primarily and escape/invulnerability effect.

4th Power...I like the new range expansion and doubling of the number of tentacles. However again if this is to be a buff. Doubling the tentacles for double the energy cost isn't anything except a bit more flexible. However, the range was cut from 20m down to 5m

While doubled: Range 30m, Energy 80, Tentacles 20, Damage +150% per tentacle, duration 15s. Net effect 375% more damage over current ability but at 80 energy. Net effect compared to revised base 286% more damage but at 200% energy....a reasonable energy to damage exchange.

At the end of the day we are talking about one of the least powerful frames...not necessarily the least liked. As someone commented earlier enough with the zero sum game. He needs the biggest Buff ever applied to any Warframe. Think what would it take for every player to think....OMG Hydroid is now the best frame there is. Take what I did above and double it. 4th Power Range 30 extends to 60 with boost has 50 tentacles each doing 500% original damage. Then back off a bit from that. 

Stop taking a Ford Focus and adding pinstripping and expecting it to compete with a Ferrari.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Kithawk

[Raxekem]

Just now, Xyhon said:

No, because this is swarm/horde game, and you rarely fight one enemy. And you can kill enemies faster than "drowning them" and waiting for s... to happen. Really, there are many frames that do damage better. Hydroid was supposed to be support/CC frame, not a pure damage dealer who sits in a puddle for a whole day. It's boring, tedious, and requires quirks that are not best for this type of game.

I never talked about doing solo endless missions. Now that your teammates can shoot the puddle it's alot more effective and could be way better (actually viable if the range got the increase it needs). Again I'm thinking about a 4 man squad. And If you talk about hydroid being a support/cc frame isn't that what undertow is now?It litterally prevents enemies from doing anything while they drown. And with a squad comp that compliments undertow you can make high rounds/time.

[[DE]Megan]

26 minutes ago, Corial said:

@[DE]Megan

While hydroid is in undertow it seems that now using tidal surge drains extra energy to move while previously it would only drain the modded cost of the ability itself while using it in undertow to move. Was this intended or unintentional?

Edit: It seems to drain energy for any extra movement that includes; being completely submerged in undertow before even touching ground, using tidal surge while in undertow, getting pushed around by kuva guardians while in undertow (if victim happens to be in line of the heavy hits).

We have a fix for Tidal Surge while in Undertow causing extra Energy to be consumed for the distance traveled that will be included in the next Hotfix.

[Corial]

Just now, [DE]Megan said:

We have a fix for Tidal Surge while in Undertow causing extra Energy to be consumed for the distance traveled that will be included in the next Hotfix.

Very much appreciated Megan. You slowly give me more reasons to bring chaos with hydroid's drowning skills :3 

[Raxekem]

1 minute ago, [DE]Megan said:

We have a fix for Tidal Surge while in Undertow causing extra Energy to be consumed for the distance traveled that will be included in the next Hotfix.

Will the enemies getting out of undertow when moving out of their range also be fixed?

[Darkvramp]

why does undertow leave enemies behind when you move? why does it cost time being vulnerable to cast his abilities and a slightly more powerful  ability is the result? Why did you nerf his ranges? why does tidal surge not have a combo meter like slash dash and rhino charge? why doe sit cost energy to move at the slowest pace in the game?

Edited August 16, 2017 by Darkvramp

[Cebian]

14 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Nope.

 

Look again at the damage change to Undertow. They changed its damage type to Impact. So, yes, they made it scaling in terms of its base numbers, while changing it away from being finisher damage, the kind of damage which innately bypasses armour scaling anyway.

 

Unless they've made the scaling % damage have a huge ratio, this is actually a nerf to Hydroid's damage output, see?

i thought it was only his ult that did finishing damage, well then that's not so good. But on the other hand, even though its now impact damage, it now scales based on max health of the enemies as well as the total amount of them in the pool, so its seems pretty effective still

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Cebian

[amginEamgiS]

Please get rid of the charge and make the fully charged ability default . Hydroid feels really slow.

[CHIEF-117]

1 minute ago, amginEamgiS said:

Please get rid of the charge and make the fully charged ability default . Hydroid feels really slow.

I Definitely agree the charge is more of a nerf than a buff to hydroid. Getting rid of it and making the fully charged damage default would make him perhaps even sortie viable.

[-Temp0-]

[NebbyOtt]

The Hydroid changes are nice, But Vacuum needs to be reenabled. Or the loot that falls on Undertow needs to be under the water. because now, instead of those life support captals being in one nice central spot, they're just all over and completely blocking my view, preventing me from using his lasso at all.

1 hour ago, fighterpenguin said:

How often do you have to nerf Hydroid again? Getting the shield and health recharged in undertow was great.

Curative Undertow; and shields do that on their own.

Edited August 16, 2017 by TennoHack

[Nod_Legion]

Sorry but even after this rework on hydroid and testing him in simulacrum vs Auditors hes still not usefull.From all info he was suposed to be CC his abilities should been CC oriented but meh....Was hoping to see some rework outside of the box the usual what we had instead fixed restricted to his old mechanics.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Elghinyr

[GA-Bulletproof]

So this is just ridiculous. Just ran an Interception with him:

I was in Undertow 95% of the time and was so stationary it basically bored me out after the first round.

PLEASE!

- Remove his 2 and make it "Waterwalk" or whatever you want to call it like Nezhas Firewalk

- Make his 3 Undertow cast on spot and give him the ability to jump into the undertow to become invulnerable

- And for the love of god make the kraken follow him around!!!

The modifications he is receiving at the moment are trending to be use...let's just say boring.

But thx for TG9...

Edited August 16, 2017 by GA-Bulletproof

[Xyhon]

Yey, just got killed in Undertow (yes, in the puddle mode). Three times. Good times

[Pyus]

1 hour ago, [DE]Megan said:

Undertow

Undertow is being affected by an undocumented range multiplier. 190% range should be 7.6 meters, 138% range is 5.51 meters. Meaning range is being negatively impacted by a ~42% multiplier. 

Can we get stats to correctly modify their attributes without hidden multipliers going on behind the scenes? (i.e. Heavy Caliber reducing accuracy on Ogris by 98%!!!) 

 

Found out what's going on:

• Undertow uses the following expression when accounting for Power Range: Modified Range = Base Range × Power Range ^0.5

Edited August 16, 2017 by Pyus

[h4r1m40]

42 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

" Hydroids role is to be a fun and active"

 

How on earth that change is made to make him active ?? All I see is a change to make people afk in puddle mode while the team will shoot at the water, so much gameplay.

 

If at least you want this for your lazy playerbase, can we have something really active on the side ?

 

I suggest a small melee buff for some seconds when you go out of puddle, so active players will have something as a reward and it will fit with the addition of Hydroid P + Nami Skila P (weapon you should think as hybrid machete/double blade though)

You are speaking from the bottom of my heart. The recent changes focus way too much on Hydroid's most boring ability (undertow). This only encourages players to AFK-puddle in missions.

I think they changed Hydroid's puddle damage from "finisher-damage" to "impact-damage" because they were afraid that Hydroid-players realize that, with scaling finisher damage, his highest damage-output would be achieved by simply staying afk in puddle and begging your squad to stack up damage by firing into it.

If they had kept a scalable "finisher-damage" for puddle then players would just puddle 24/7 in high level missions in order to keep up the damage.

 

They should rework his 1st and 4th ability because they are the only engaging ones to use within his kit. Are we ready to admit that recent Hydroid changes can be called "Puddle-Gate"?

[Spookmineer]

Focus school meter while in mission isn't charging up anymore.

The wheel isn't filling, can't use 5th ability :|

[Xyhon]

12 minutes ago, Cebian said:

i thought it was only his ult that did finishing damage, well then that's not so good. But on the other hand, even though its now impact damage, it now scales based on max health of the enemies as well as the total amount of them in the pool, so its seems pretty effective still

 

That is all fine and dandy, until you get yourself few Ancients in your range. Also, killing anything still takes forever. Impact is resisted by all, really, makes working with that a choir.

[Hallowieners]

The puddle changes are niceeeee, but his other skills are still pretty lacking, he's energy hungry as heck though and the other skills just don't justify their energy costs.