Razor(feed)back: Game fatigue, burnout, and you!

[Excalibur]

5 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

stims (something I still haven't seen a use for)

Also honest to god you're not missing much with stims. They're just clan affinity fodder for the next tier.

[Hecro]

If it's hard to farm, I just don't play it.

I never did Infested Alad V on purpose, neither will do the Razorback thing.

I don't care either if the Relay gets destroyed.

Just don't let a game burn you out. If there's something you don't want to do, just don't do it.

[Excalibur]

3 minutes ago, Hecro said:

If it's hard to farm, I just don't play it.

I never did Infested Alad V on purpose, neither will do the Razorback thing.

I don't care either if the Relay gets destroyed.

Just don't let a game burn you out. If there's something you don't want to do, just don't do it.

The point isn't me being burnt out; burnout is secondary.

Primary point is that the event is hopeless for new players to even try and accomplish because a good chunk of them, while having access to Larunda, can't even help defend it due to prohibitive resource costs or simply not having the nodes unlocked.

The secondary point is a lot of older players feel burnt out by the previous Razorback and this one's frankly ridiculously high health that A) they don't feel like they're making a dent so they don't bother or B) they don't need anything from it so they don't bother.

So the onus is on older players to try and farm and repel Razorback, which they don't want to do, but the new players are the ones who want to defend against and fight Razorback, which they can't do. It's a poor system that needs a complete overhaul. Maybe the Token system, like @LSG501 said.

And small edit: of course you don't care, you're MR18 and have access to two other shiny relays. Newer players don't.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Judge
Small reasoning edit

[Nova]

Considering Razorback and Fomorian invasions are now going to happen all the time due to it simply growing over time from Invasion completions, I genuinely do not expect any of our relays to last. Ever. These have too high of an HP bar with too low of an incentive or reward with too short of a time span for a significantly small amount of the community to even be able to participate in.

I'm sure DE will eventually get to making relay reconstruction a thing, but at this rate we will only have Iron Wake and Maroo's Bazaar left. No Kronia. No Larunda. No Orcus. And I feel the same is going to happen to console too, seeing as they're getting a Fomorian invasion coming up. This event is far too boring, tiring, and uninviting and is only accessible to players who have already had ample time to prepare for it, and you're expecting these already mostly burnt-out and tired players to carry this entire event to save something new players very much so need to perform basic tasks? What's gonna happen to Simaris targets and Syndicate pickups for a new player with no access to Kronia or Orcus? What's going to happen when Baro Ki'Teer only shows up at one relay that new players will most likely not have any access to, and vet players will already have all of his stuff for?

Razorback and Fomorian are a one-time event. They were shocking and interesting the first time, but that was it. Afterwards, it just became a bore, a hassle, and another reason for veteran players to just leave it to the fate of the few players that desperately attempt to pick up the scraps.

[Nez-Kal]

1 hour ago, Retchid said:

People complained in Destiny about multiplayer maps, racetrack, raids and the Queen.  Bungie took them out and left f all to play.

Stop moaning - that is the reason there is no Rail - be grateful for what u got

 

The Rails were removed because they were extremely badly designed, and only created extreme toxicity in parts of the game, dividing the player-base, and over-all failing at their intended purpose.

Should we bring back Stamina Bars, and 4 Revives a Day too?

The OP wrote out a well thought out "These are the things that are currently wrong" post on the Razorback event, and all you do is throw the "Stop Complaining about something that isn't working!" ball. Way to go you.

[Chipputer]

2 hours ago, Sloan441 said:

DE might be planning for the Larunda relay to fall for their own reasons. It's happened before. It might be a prelude to the long anticipated relay reconstruction. It might not.

Could also be planning to replace Larunda with the town in PoE. Baro visiting there would make perfect sense.

[Insizer]

I'd fight to protect Lafonda relay (beyond the 3 missions), but I know that so few are doing that.  3 matches to get the reward is too little for players to continue playing against the Razorback.  Few care enough to continue playing it after the reward and many people already have the mission rewards from either the events they came from or from the last Razorback Armada fight. 

[Sloan441]

2 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Could also be planning to replace Larunda with the town in PoE. Baro visiting there would make perfect sense.

Interesting. Especially the timing.

Someone did mention that if the Razorback armada did succeed, the relay wouldn't be destroyed but occupied. This was supposedly from a tweet by Rebecca.

[HitokiriGuille]

Just now, Insizer said:

I'd fight to protect Lafonda relay (beyond the 3 missions), but I know that so few are doing that.  3 matches to get the reward is too little for players to continue playing against the Razorback.  Few care enough to continue playing it after the reward and many people already have the mission rewards from either the events they came from or from the last Razorback Armada fight. 

I did 89 runs to get a duplicate of all mods and still 1 mod missing

[Insizer]

1 minute ago, HitokiriGuille said:

I did 89 runs to get a duplicate of all mods and still 1 mod missing

Jesus... I knew the mods had a small chance, but I didn't expect it to be that low...

[Excalibur]

Just now, Insizer said:

Jesus... I knew the mods had a small chance, but I didn't expect it to be that low...

They actually updated the droptables with the dropchances an hour ago.

 

Razorback	%
Gorgon Wraith Blueprint	18.97%
Gorgon Wraith Barrel	18.97%
Gorgon Wraith Receiver	18.97%
Gorgon Wraith Stock	18.97%
Bore	5.53%
Piercing Caliber	5.53%
Breach Loader	5.53%
Auger Strike	5.53%
Magma Chamber	1.01%
Searing Steel	1.01%

[Excalibur]

3 minutes ago, Sloan441 said:

Interesting. Especially the timing.

Someone did mention that if the Razorback armada did succeed, the relay wouldn't be destroyed but occupied. This was supposedly from a tweet by Rebecca.

I mentioned it earlier in this thread as a possibility, and can't find any tweet from Reb verifying. I only implied it might be a thing that happens as A) the Corpus aren't destroyers so much as occupiers and B) The inbox message from the Lotus says, word for word;

"The fleet moves slowly but if we allow it to get within range, it will deploy these behemoths and commandeer our relay."

[HitokiriGuille]

3 minutes ago, Judge said:

They actually updated the droptables with the dropchances an hour ago.

 

Razorback	%
Gorgon Wraith Blueprint	18.97%
Gorgon Wraith Barrel	18.97%
Gorgon Wraith Receiver	18.97%
Gorgon Wraith Stock	18.97%
Bore	5.53%
Piercing Caliber	5.53%
Breach Loader	5.53%
Auger Strike	5.53%
Magma Chamber	1.01%
Searing Steel	1.01%

Woah, i was told mods were around 8% so now it makes sense that Searing Steel didn't show up OMFG

[Insizer]

5 minutes ago, Judge said:

Razorback	%
Gorgon Wraith Blueprint	18.97%
Gorgon Wraith Barrel	18.97%
Gorgon Wraith Receiver	18.97%
Gorgon Wraith Stock	18.97%
Bore	5.53%
Piercing Caliber	5.53%
Breach Loader	5.53%
Auger Strike	5.53%
Magma Chamber	1.01%
Searing Steel	1.01%

This is why I hate large droptables.

[Excalibur]

Just now, HitokiriGuille said:

Woah, i was told mods were around 8% so now it makes sense that Searing Steel didn't show up OMFG

I don't see the point of the Archwing dual stats being so exceedingly rare considering they're A) Dual stat mods and the other dual stats for regular weapons have decent, fair drops from Spy missions, Vor, or Baro/Hive Sabotage and B) It's Archwing which is in massive need of some TLC but that's for another topic.

[Insizer]

6 minutes ago, Judge said:

I mentioned it earlier in this thread as a possibility, and can't find any tweet from Reb verifying. I only implied it might be a thing that happens as A) the Corpus aren't destroyers so much as occupiers and B) The inbox message from the Lotus says, word for word;

"The fleet moves slowly but if we allow it to get within range, it will deploy these behemoths and commandeer our relay."

I have two things to say to this:

1. That would be interesting, an event where we liberate the relay (though if you think about it, it should be an easy thing to do as warframes and our weapons are OP af).

2. When Lafonda relay gets taken over, will anyone alert Baro? How many people would love it if Baro were to teleport directly into the relay, only to see himself suddenly surrounded by Corpus?

[Excalibur]

I do feel like we should stay on the topic though; I've leveled my criticisms at [DE]. I'm not expecting them to drop everything and change it all and 'listen to me now!' but hey, if they ever read this, I'd just like to say thanks for reading this far, and I truly believe you guys can only get better at what you do.

That being said, topic on hand remains the same; Razorback Armada, as an event, is nebulous and confusing for newer players and has a steep entry cost for newer players. The relay they benefit from the most will likely be occupied/destroyed, simply because a chunk of them can't participate and because a portion of older, higher MR-players refuse to participate for various reasons (entry cost, farming cost, low desire, burnout, desire to see Larunda burn for various reasons).

So I ask this question going forward -- how can [DE] redesign the Armada so that new players can participate without feeling like they're paying an arm and a leg? Furthermore, how can [DE] take feedback from this current Razorback Armada and apply it to future worldstate changing events...or even, to events in general, so that players new and old can participate without feeling (as much) burnout or feeling (as much) prohibitive entry?

Edited September 2, 2017 by Judge
Small reasoning edit

[phoenix1992]

The *big event* is not meant for you. Or for me.
It is meant for people that have joined the game on a later date.  And please top with the "but the new players can/can not" do something. Clearing the star chart is push over in current Warframe, grinding for resources is hard, but not as hard as it could be without the current fissure system.  If you would prefer the mods and weapon to come from baro (as is the case with other gear that used to come from events), all the power to you but... Diversity is a good thing. 

PS: Speaking of the new players again - I missed the point in which you aplied the same logic to Baro himself. How can the new players even get close to the amount of ducats  + creds + MR needed for Slash/Impact/StatusPrimed mods?

Edited September 2, 2017 by phoenix1992

[Voladrios]

2 hours ago, Retchid said:

People complained in Destiny about multiplayer maps, racetrack, raids and the Queen.  Bungie took them out and left f all to play.

Stop moaning - that is the reason there is no Rail - be grateful for what u got

 

Removing the event =/= fixing the problem. That's lazy developer tactics. I love this game and the last thing I want is Digital Extreme to turn into Bungie 2.0. There's this thing called "improvement" and there's always space for it. And we, the community, have to let the developers know about those possible ways to fix the problem. You're practically asking DE to stop improving their game by telling us to stop "moaning". Sitting idly won't get the game anywhere either!

As for what OP said, I agree. The rewards are simply not worth it. Heck, I stopped doing sorties for a while because the new reward system is not worth my time. All those efforts put into completing the sortie and what do I get? Either a lens or a sculpture. Maybe a booster if I get lucky. The credits are more rewarding to me than what I get at the end of a sortie, that's how bad it is. This event is suffering from the same issue: The rewards aren't worth the effort. We're sick of doing the same thing over and over again and get nothing to justify those efforts and resources.

[Excalibur]

10 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

The *big event* is not meant for you. Or for me.

It is meant for people that have joined the game on a later date.  And please top with the "but the new players can/can not" do something. Clearing the star chart is push over in current Warframe, grinding for resources is hard, but not as hard as it could be without the current fissure system.  If you would prefer the mods and weapon to come from baro (as is the case with other gear that used to come from events), all the power to you but... Diversity is a good thing. 

PS: Speaking of the new players again - I missed the point in which you aplied the same logic to Baro himself. How can the new players even get close to the amount of ducats  + creds + MR needed for Slash/Impact/StatusPrimed mods?

First off, I don't see how it's not meant for me or you. We're both 20+ MR. How is the event not 'for' us? And no, I'm not going to stop with the 'new players can't do X Y Z' BECAUSE THEY CAN'T. I'm saving why specifically the new player experience is not fun for another topic entirely, but worldstate changing events should be accessible by the whole playerbase. Not us 'SELECT ELITE FEW' who have resources to spare (or sometimes, don't!)

The starchart is no pushover. Start over entirely. From MR0. New account. Tell me how long it takes you to get an undamaged Serration by yourself, with zero outside assistance, to try and clear it.

And where did I even mention that logic with Baro Ki'Teer? I didn't apply any such logic to him. Baro isn't even part of this topic! But since you brought him up; yes, Baro is inaccessible to newer players. That makes sense. He brings items you're usually supposed to get at a later date, and his rotating inventory pool ensures that hey, it'll be back in the future.

I didn't say I want anything to come from Baro. I said, 'The Razorback Armada is a poorly designed event that excludes new players due to inaccessibility, and punishes them by putting the brunt of this worldchanging event on high MR players who either don't want to farm it because they have everything, or cannot farm it, or don't want to farm it due to burnout from the previous Armada, thus leaving the entire worldstate change in the hands of approximately nobody and giving newer players zero agency in this matter'.

 

3 minutes ago, Voladrios said:

This event is suffering from the same issue: The rewards aren't worth the effort. We're sick of doing the same thing over and over again and get nothing to justify those efforts and resources.

And that's another thing. If [DE] wants us to participate in this massive worldchanging thing that'll completely screw over new players if we don't participate, then we need more incentive beyond 'ehn, new players will get wrecked if we don't do it'.

The new player experience is already in a sorry state as it is.

It needs improvement.

So does this event.

EDIT: But we SHOULD be focusing on the event and why it can and needs to be fixed for future iterations, rather than me getting sidetracked about new player experience; my apologies.
 

Edited September 2, 2017 by Judge
Slight change at bottom, refocusing subject

[TaylorsContraction]

You make a very accurate point about new players not being able to do this easily. Some of the new players in my clan after I helped them farm 12 alu cryptos, had only enough polymer bundle to craft 1, ONE cipher.

Yes as an end game player I took them on a polymer farm with my hydroid and nekros and we got 10k in 20 minutes without a booster. But had I not been available to help them with all this their experience would have been far worse and as op points out, there are plenty of new players that will suffer the short end of the stick in this event.

I've only ran the razorback 8 times, and while I have tons of resources to do more I have zero incentive as the rewards are meaningless to me. DE needs to take this into consideration, that such recurring events with unchanging reward pools are going to draw a smaller crowd each time around.

[MirageKnight]

If the Razorback boss fight is the same as the last ones...count me out. The Relay can burn for all I care because as far as boss fights are concerned, this one is lame and I want nothing to do with it anymore.

Before anyone starts with the "you probably should have brought better gear if it was that hard for you" argument, previous fights with Razorbacks were not difficult for me at all. They were annoying and boring. You're basically stuck in a large room with a really big boss that shuffles around shooting and occasionally stomping its feet. The Formorian's lasers at least pose a serious threat and force you to be on your toes and maneuver a fair bit.

The other thing that gets me is the event doesn't even make that much sense. How is the Razorback supposed to destroy a Relay anyway? It's a huge friggin' walker designed for combat against ground-based installations. How would you even get a Razorback into the Relay and why would you even want to? It doesn't even look like it would fit inside a Relay, much less be able to walk around inside one. At any rate, you destroy / occupy space stations with - you know - space ships.

That said, I'd like to see us engage Razorback in an outdoor environment, where it can chase and follow us and we can make use of cover. Heck - I'd love to see a mission where a Corpus faction is attacking a colony settlement and has deployed a Razorback...and it's our job to protect the settlement.

And please...that mechanic where hacked Bursas are the only things that can really weaken it needs to go. It's contrived, annoying and arbitrary. I'd rather see Razorback be able take extra damage by exposing and / or hitting a weak-point or two. 

[Violet_Xe]

Please read this through completely It's vital you do as this COULD be the future of warframe

*also i don't know if this has been said anywhere else so sorry if there has been in advance even if i'm still going to say it*

Fatigue or not we need to break these razorbacks no matter the cost. DE said they would let us rebuild relays even if they are destroyed but keep in mind these things are global areas that we are remaking. you think this will be as easy as a solar rail once they show up? no they will cost FAR MORE resopurces to rebuild than what you will spend destroying these razorbacks. I recognize that some of you only are in it for rewards as well but Let me go into detail as to why you should still take care of breaking these things. What happens when all the relays are gone and the relays are able to be rebuilt. you won't want to remake them so we get none. then Baro probably won't show up at all and sure some of you have this Prime disappointment joke involving baro because he doesn't bring good items, but what he Can bring items and what if you no longer can get them because there are no more relays left. let me double down on this and say what happens if there are no more of these things to break relays because none exist anymore? you don't get an extra way to get a catalyst and reactor and lose a source of this and you rely on sortie and devstreams/prime time for this stuff now. you lose out on possible extra rewards you could get because they don't show up anymore and this is stacking on top you not getting Baro. now time to TRIPLE DOWN and say maybe after these relays are broken what if they add fomorians as archwing assassins as that will be a use for them in the future or mayube that they randomly blow up corpus ships causing you to extract and lose all those sweet 1hr rewards, or what if they decide to raid the Plains of Eidolon once it comes into the game and it becomes a war zone and we can't access that anymore. what would happen then, you have yourself to blame. these things are all possibilities that could happen, but i'm not done yet. let me Quadruple down and say What if baro still shows up but only in tennocon relay and certain people can't access that so we miss out on it. actually i have a better idea what if fomorians will next target tennocon relay or maroo's bazaar. You now are missing out on Baro, catalyst/reactors from these events, Prime mods can't have this prime junk cycle that some people use making prices skyrocket breaking the marketplace and turning it unusable, and Quests from the people at the relays, Lore from simaris, and a way to turn in medalians making them useless and making it harder to up your standing with factions. Rob said in one of his videos he uses them to future proof his syndicates and that won't be an option anymore. Now lets just add another one on top of all of this and say they could use fomorians to end all crossfire and Invasion missions. then you can't get rewards from there either meaning no more ways to get vandal parts, wraith parts, extra reactors, catalysts, Forma, denoite, Fieldron, and other areas. Keep in mind as well this is your fault the fomorioans and razorbacks are here anyways. DE added the lenz into the game and we all decided to instead of wait 10 days for fieldron in the clan dojos, we help the corpus and cause a sudden spike in razorback production. To make this all worse they could make a tile set called Relay and make it so we have to fend off hostiles while it is building like a survival or a certain amount of our resources are stolen like they are doing a survival like we do o them all the time. or perhaps stuff on the ground we have to shut down as global bosses with low hp since they stop production of our relays like anti air or a giant laser like the ones in star craft called draken lasers or the cannons that bring down ships. These could also influince lore later down the road for those of you who care for Warframe lore.

Now let me give you an idea of what relay resource costs could be, NOTE: COULD BE 

A SINGLE RELAY RESOURCE COST *POSSIBLY*

• Fieldron
  • Maybe 10k 20k
    • Perrin Sequence
• Detonite Injectors
  • Maybe 10k 20k
    • Steel Meredian
• Forma
  • Perhaps 20-50k
• Nitain 
  • 5k-10k
• Oxium
  • 100k-250k
• Neurodes
  • Maybe 200k
• Orokin Cell
  • perhaps 10k-20k
• Argon Crystal
  • Perhaps 5k
    • BTW passive of argon is to decay so what might happen is 100 or 50 decay each day try to think about that
• Alloy Plate
  • 25 trillion
• Cryotic
  • 5 million
• Kuva
  • 2.5 million
• Mutagen Mass
  • maybe 10 or 20k
• Gallium
  • 5k
• Morphics
  • 20k
• Orokin Ciphors
  • 2k
• Neural Sensors
  • 2-5k
• Polymer
  • 1-2 trillion
    • Ironic isn't it
      • Razorback
• Nano Spores
  • 2-5 trillion
    • Still Ironic
      • Fomorian
• Ferrite
  • 2.5 million
• Control Module
  • 45k-50k
• Tellerium
  • 10k-20k

Perhaps now you see why it's so much more worth it to destroy every single one with a burning passion. These things decide our future, warframe is a S#&$show at time and i recognize that. But we need to break them or these are all possibilities that could happen. Weather you don't do it for resources or just cause you want the rewards, these things can come back to bite you hard. DE gives us a choice and sure it's a S#&$ty one, but still a choice. Do you want lose tons of things and many things you worked on, have it come back and bite you? or do you want to make sure none of this happens? they are basically saying do you want your fate in our hands, or yours.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Violet_Xe
Forgot tellerium

[True_Naeblis]

No tokens for this event made me call it quits after about 6 runs. It's not fun, and knowing that some mods are as low as a 1 in 100 chance just makes that decision seem all the better. At least the Fomorian had ways to move quickly to the objective and could be handled even if someone's trying to troll by taking as much time as possible coming to the main area. This mess leaves you waiting for all players to make it to the waypoint, then consists of hacking so that you can hack again so that you can hack again and repeat ad naseum.

I honestly want to know when DE's devs ran this themselves after they constructed it did they find it fun? Anyway, the Corpus can have the relay, I'm done with it.

[DatDarkOne]

I didn't bother with because it just didn't have a reward I wanted.  As for the whole destroying a Relay thing, in a way I kinda want to see what happens.  

Edited September 3, 2017 by DatDarkOne
correcting autocorrect