Zephyrs' Rebirth

[President_Gohan]

Hiya warframe forums!  It's President Gohan here and I'm here with a Zephyr idea, that I think will help improve Zephyr... at least in my opinion.

 

BASE STAT CHANGES
+25 Shields
+70 Energy

(Really the only thing needed is an energy increase, but extra shields would be nice)

 

PASSIVE CHANGES
Addition to current passive: Extra wall latch and aim glide duration based on Zephyrs Power Duration and Power Strength. 
Addition to current passive: Shields will be restored at 3 times the current rate while wall latched.

 

ABILITY ONE: CYCLONE DISCS
This would be a click to activate ability where Zephyr would shoot 1-4 ‘discs’ of air.  (very similar to  Rasen-Shuriken from Naruto).  These discs will act similarly to a boomerang. The amount of discs thrown will be based on Power Strength, however the damage they deal will be based on melee weapons.  This will be increased if a throwing melee weapon is equipped.  The size of the disc will be based on Power Range.  Up to 12 discs can be launched simultaneously before there is a few second cooldown, which will be determined by Power Duration (Lower Duration will be lower cooldown timer).

AUGMENT: CYCLONE SHURIKEN
Instead of throwing up to 12 discs and having a cooldown timer, Zephyr will throw 4 discs simultaneously.  When or if this hits an enemy, that enemy will be engulfed with the air, and the air will keep shrinking, crushing anything inside. (again, similar to Naruto’s Rasen-Shuriken) How long the air orb lasts will be based on Power Duration.  Power Strength will determine how much damage the air orb does. (Also noting that this wouldn’t be too powerful, but can weaken enemies and keep some annoying monsters away temporarily…. I’m thinking more of a trapping situation.)

 

ABILITY TWO: TAILWIND
Like current tailwind, Zephyr will burst up into the air.  However, Zephyr can remain in the air as long as she has energy.  The longer she is in the air, the faster your energy will drain.  I imagine this feeling to be like it is when you aim-glide with Zephyr… feeling just suspended In the air.  Noting that Zephyr will also be vulnerable to explosives and will receive extra damage from explosives.  Also, Zephyr can reactivate this ability to perform a tailwind in any direction you aim, but must return to ground to be able to float again.  Energy Drain would be based on Zephyrs Power Effeciency.  How high/far Zephyr can go would be based on range.

 

ABILITY THREE: TORNADO WALL
Zephyr summons in between one and 4 mini-tornadoes that will circle around Zephyr providing a turbulence like effect, boosting speed and stopping bullets.  Tornado’s will have a chance to deflect explosive projectiles (such as bombards’ weapons), chance being based off of how many tornado’s you summon and Power Effeciency.  These tornadoes will also knock down nearby enemies (within range) and will have a small chance of disarming them.  The amount of tornadoes summoned will be based on Power Strength, as well as the damage dealt and blocked.  Duration will determine how long the tornado wall can last. Cannot be recast until duration has expired (unless augment is used).

 

AUGMENT: JETSTREAM
Zephyr can grant Turbulence to all allies by targeting those allies with Tornado Wall. (duration will be shorter than Zephyrs’). Base effect will be only the turbulence effect, however, if an ally is within Zephyrs Range, they will receive half the amount of tornadoes that Zephyr has active (or could just simply make this one tornado per ally, but no more than two.

 

ABILITY FOUR: DIVINE WINDS/HURRICANE
Zephyr forms a massive cloud that will circle above Zephyr and her nearby allies.  These clouds will release heavy winds that will slow enemies down, reduce their defences, and even sending them flying.  I see this being very similar to a Hurricane.  These winds can easily disarm enemies as well as extract extra resources or even rare resources.  The size of this ‘storm’ will be based on Power Range as well as how many enemies can be caught by this storm, however the length will be based on a timed duration.  Power Strength will increase the strength to allow higher levelled enemies to be effected well.

AUGMENT: TORNADIC HURRICANE
If Tornado Wall Is activated after Divine Winds (or hurricane if you want to call it that) the player can recast Tornado Wall to allow Tornadoes to circle the edge of the storm.  This will negate the tornado effect of Jet Stream Augment (but turbulence will still be granted).

 

These are my thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours as well. 

 

 

 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

How is your 3rd ability balanced?

[Air-mage]

its a nope.

[wezling]

I like the enthusiasm, but a couple problems/concerns I have:

4 hours ago, President_Gohan said:

+25 Shields
+70 Energy

Zephyr is in the top 13 (primes included) for maximum shields. She may get that in her prime version, but it's not gonna happen in base form. Additionally, Zephyr is in the top 5 (primes included) for max health. Just keep that in mind.

Max base energy for any warframe is 200. Zephyr currently sits at 150, which is just about average. Maybe a little over. In her prime version you might be able to see +25, but even that's pushing it.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Warframes_Comparison

4 hours ago, President_Gohan said:

Extra wall latch

Loki already has this. The glide time is understandable. 

4 hours ago, President_Gohan said:

The amount of discs thrown will be based on Power Strength, however the damage they deal will be based on melee weapons.  This will be increased if a throwing melee weapon is equipped.

First, this is overpowered for a first ability. Second you're kinda taking things from everywhere:

Ash's first ability but on steroids, mixed in with a half exalted weapon... New idea and it's interesting, maybe good as a 4th ability. But not for Zephyr sorry. I do agree that Zephyr is very much embodied in thrown weapons though. I think each warframe should have a preferred weapon type. That'd be a fun passive to add.

4 hours ago, President_Gohan said:

ABILITY TWO: TAILWIND

This is an odd archwing movement mashup. The idea is there, but I don't thing the execution is this fashion is viable. That's a lot of weird number crunching as it's both a channeled movement/distance based ability.

4 hours ago, President_Gohan said:

ABILITY THREE: TORNADO WALL

So it's turbulence, with melee protection and disarming? Couple of issues:

Turbulence deflects all ranged weapons (missiles included with some boss exceptions which you should be avoiding anyway). However AOE damage can still penetrate it, my suggestion, increase the range so missiles are deflected earlier and blow up out of range of you.

Turbulence is 99% immunity to ranged weaponry. No joke, go duration and range. Just melee people running at you, you won't lose a bit of health. That said, it's OP! DE has had problems balancing it as it is. This just makes it the ultimate defense. 

If tornadoes are based on how much damage is taken, then I'd assume the numbers decrease, so in a high level environment I could lose protection where turbulence would've otherwise saved me.

Lastly, what would the animation for this look like? Because I'm not sure you'd be able to see anything.

5 hours ago, President_Gohan said:

ABILITY FOUR: DIVINE WINDS/HURRICANE

So... ability 3 all over again? But with the previous augment already attached...?

Also I'm not sure there's any ability that limits it's targeting based on enemy strength (I assume level). So this would be a first, and frankly forces players to use power strength on her to use this ability.

 

Also, DE has shown in reworks that is doesn't necessarily want to fully rework a warframe. They like their base ideas and want to keep as many as them as possible. Out of how many reworks have they added new abilities? 3/12 (i think) It's not common, and of those new abilities it's 1 per warframe. So sad to say I don't see this gaining much traction. However if you can think of a theme for a new warframe i can see at least 1 of these abilities making it's way in. Maybe a space themed warframe? (I full heartedly maintain that nova is a matter based warfame)

[Birdframe_Prime]

I'm with both RenovaKunumaru and Wezling on this, I like the enthusiasm, but your rework lacks self balance, full thought into ability interaction/redundancy, full knowledge of the limits of other frames for stat balance, and even a poor grasp of how DE has been reworking Warframes in the past.

I'm afraid it's a nope from me too, but mostly because what you're doing isn't reworking Zephyr, it's creating a new frame with new abilities with the base in what you think Zephyr should have been.

[SenorClipClop]

Zephyr doesn't need new abilities, she just needs an update to what her current abilities provide.

Tailwind can stay tailwind, it just needs to provide some new level of aerial traversal unique to her. Zephyr was introduced before Parkour 2.0, and now Bullet Jump can provide an okay substitute for one of her powers. As of Titania, we even have a more adept aerial fighter. If there's any one place that Zeph needs love in, it's here.

Divebomb is alright, it just needs to offer a bit more than an area knockdown. Popular ideas have been offered in the form of enemy targeting (so the skill isn't always straight down) or by applying additional debuffs to foes affected.

Turbulence seems pretty okay.

Whatever the last one's called, the tornadoes could either be updated to make caught enemies easier to hit (a la the change to Tentacle Swarm), or better justify the chaotic chucking around of foes via relevant (scaling?) damage or stronger effects applied.

EDIT: Also, some synergy would be nice.

Edited September 9, 2017 by SenorClipClop

[President_Gohan]

On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 6:28 AM, Thaylien said:

I'm with both RenovaKunumaru and Wezling on this, I like the enthusiasm, but your rework lacks self balance, full thought into ability interaction/redundancy, full knowledge of the limits of other frames for stat balance, and even a poor grasp of how DE has been reworking Warframes in the past.

I'm afraid it's a nope from me too, but mostly because what you're doing isn't reworking Zephyr, it's creating a new frame with new abilities with the base in what you think Zephyr should have been.

 I appreciate all the comments so far.  I will admit, it sounds a lot better in my head.  I will also admit that I was thinking of Zephyr as a new frame.

 

23 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Zephyr doesn't need new abilities, she just needs an update to what her current abilities provide.

Tailwind can stay tailwind, it just needs to provide some new level of aerial traversal unique to her. Zephyr was introduced before Parkour 2.0, and now Bullet Jump can provide an okay substitute for one of her powers. As of Titania, we even have a more adept aerial fighter. If there's any one place that Zeph needs love in, it's here.

Divebomb is alright, it just needs to offer a bit more than an area knockdown. Popular ideas have been offered in the form of enemy targeting (so the skill isn't always straight down) or by applying additional debuffs to foes affected.

Turbulence seems pretty okay.

Whatever the last one's called, the tornadoes could either be updated to make caught enemies easier to hit (a la the change to Tentacle Swarm), or better justify the chaotic chucking around of foes via relevant (scaling?) damage or stronger effects applied.

EDIT: Also, some synergy would be nice.

Yes, I can see this.  Although in all honesty, I think tailwind and divebomb can be merged.  What goes up must come down, and it seems like a waste of a spot to have them separated.   I do know that her Tornadoes need some rework.  It has been my belief that Inaros stole what could have been Zephrys new tornado.... which I think would have been better for Zephyr, but that's out of the question now.  Also, I've never been sure what synergy meant... guess I should look it up in the dictionary.

 

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

Thanks for not turning around and blasting me for that one, I felt a little harsh.

You know, I think you might actually enjoy the three big rework threads myself and RenovaKunumaru managed to start a little while ago, maybe give you some ideas for this?

There's my earlier thread that I've recently edited, where I debated for months with people on how to actually fix Zephyr's existing abilities, no merging, removing or replacing; The Fix Thread 

Then there's Renova's thread with a rework that shifts her passive into the best functioning Glide I've seen to date (and I've been here years) and gives her a new ability while mechanically changing up some of the other casts, he even put in two versions where one is the easy quick way and the other is the buffed and more interesting way; Zephyr vs Zephyr

Annnd the last is mine again, where I put a whole bunch of debate results, explained thinking and a full rework in with enhanced passive and new second ability so that Zephyr doesn't lose any function she has now, but gains extra instead (like Limbo did): Shock and Awe

See if those scratch the rework itch you've got ^^

9 hours ago, President_Gohan said:

I think tailwind and divebomb can be merged.

Thought I'd address this. The issue is... how? I've been debating exactly this point for a full year now, and the problems we've encountered are many and you can't fix all of them, you'd basically have to fix 50% of the issues and deal with other forum dwellers complaining about the ones you didn't.

I'll drop everything under a spoiler tag in case it turns into a wall-of-text thing... it often does with me.

Spoiler

 

Think of it this way; Tailwind is a duration based cast, the more duration, the further you fly. It's complete 3D movement for low cost because of this drawback, and has a neat little function already where casting from the ground has an impact proc on everything around you. What you can't do, however, is stop and take advantage of the things you do with the cast.

This falls into the 'what could you possibly add to Tailwind that another ability couldn't do better' debate. Crowd Control? Dive Bomb already does (admittedly not reliable) radial crowd control with every hit, from any height, meaning you have a less-than-a-second cast that knocks down everything in the area, compare that to Tailwind and you'd have a line of enemies ragdolled or knocked down, but you'd then be at the other end of them and have to run back to get them all before they stood up again, which is impossible if you have a long-duration cast. What buff for team members could you reliably apply with it? What debuff to enemies? And damage numbers on a 1 that doesn't scale would be pretty useless too, because they'd fall of faster than Ember's Fireball.

If Dive Bomb is already capable of near instant CC and better damage, but is just missing other functions (like something to do on the ground without jumping) then as far as gameplay goes, it's the better ability already.

But, if you wanted to merge them, here's the methods people have suggested: The first is simple, have Tailwind always create the Dive Bomb explosion at the end. Except it's duration based and what if you simply finish the cast before hitting the ground or a target? Does that mean every time you hit a bit of column, wall, stray geometry that Zephyr would normally slide past you'd instead stop with an explosion? Unreliable as heck.

Okay, says the debate partner, how about it does a Dive Bomb every time you angle downwards? At what angle? How do you tell it apart? What happens if you just want to Tailwind downwards towards the next door or location and instead it Dive Bombs you and you have to recover from the landing slowing your progress? Or what happens when you want to Dive Bomb and your angle is a little too shallow and you end up Tailwinding at the target, stopping in front of it and them just looking at you like you're stupid?

Fine, they say, then have it happen when you're looking straight down. Same problem, and even worse for people trying to use the Dive Bomb knockdown for fast CC in a fight, there's already that same problem with melee Ground Slams vs Air Attack, where you often accidentally use the wrong one, in fact you're exacerbating the problem for those on Console who use controllers with a fixed turning speed. Instead of a slam you dash through the air away from the fight, too many times.

Alright! Fine. Nyx the angle, make it a tap/hold function so when you tap it does one thing, but when you hold it does another. Apart from the part where it's really difficult to move around and aim something at a target while holding down the ability key for PC you're forgetting two things; first that's a downgrade to Dive Bomb because you're losing the instant CC of the cast and the quick reaction to danger it can give you, and second do you realise how the consoles have to cast abilities? On Playstation, for example, the casting is done by the touch screen, where swiping in the correct direction casts, if you think doing the hold/tap function on that is intuitive, or even all that easy to get the hang of, you'd be wrong.

Then what?! They usually try to flip the terms on me and ask how I would do it, and I say 'I wouldn't.' Dive Bomb and Tailwind are mechanical opposites in what they want to achieve, merging them will always nerf one or the other to achieve a balance or control. If I wanted to keep all of that potential damage, instant CC, movement and air time, I wouldn't merge them. I would buff both abilities to do something else in addition to what they do, and fix the mechanics on both to prevent all the existing problems we have on them.

 

... And then I'd give up on the conversation because if they kept arguing things, they were more interested in proving they were right than actually making a rework.

In short, people like myself and Renova have been here a while, we've seen all the attempts, we've argued every argument at least thirty times, we can practically recite the ten first rework ideas that new people in the forums will come up with.

By the way, the ten ideas people always come up with are: 1, merge tailwind and dive bomb; 2, remove Tornado for a new ability; 3, this new 4th ability is usually the OP love-child of Bastille and Tornado and maybe even travels with Zephyr; 4, make her abilities toggles because they don't like duration casts; 5, make her hover like Titania (I mean... seriously... what does that actually improve?); 6, completely replace every ability; 7, Turbulence is OP, nerf it so it's like one of the other defense abilities; 8, Turbulence is under-powered, buff it to near invincibility levels; 9, new ability from the merge of Tailwind and Dive Bomb; 10, MAKE HER FLY SHE'S A BIRD!!

If anyone comes up with a rework these days that doesn't contain even one of these ideas, I genuinely applaud. Then go through and see what this would actually do to the game.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

45 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

1, merge tailwind and dive bomb; 2, remove Tornado for a new ability; 3, this new 4th ability is usually the OP love-child of Bastille and Tornado and maybe even travels with Zephyr; 4, make her abilities toggles because they don't like duration casts; 5, make her hover like Titania (I mean... seriously... what does that actually improve?); 6, completely replace every ability; 7, Turbulence is OP, nerf it so it's like one of the other defense abilities; 8, Turbulence is under-powered, buff it to near invincibility levels; 9, new ability from the merge of Tailwind and Dive Bomb; 10, MAKE HER FLY SHE'S A BIRD!!

LMAO. Omg so true. I face palm every time I read one of these. 

I like to keep an open mind on new ideas even if I don't particularly agree with them. Initially I was against kabatic vortex but after some thought I made it clear to the author that I changed my mind and thought the idea was fantastic.

And yes if you do get the chance please check out Thaylien's threads and my latest thread. I couldn't be more proud.