self damge and players complaining

[TaylorsContraction]

When tonkor was released, all self damage on aoe weapons was reduced such that it dealt between 30 - 50% of your hp if you shot yourself (depending on proximity). This was great while it lasted, I remember accidentally shooting myself with the ogris and not dieing instantly. For some reason this was very quickly patched away but imo it is still the best approach to explosive weapons.

[Recel]

One weapon i absolutely don't like self damage on is the Zarr. I swear, half the time those little cluster bombs come back towards me, sometimes even from miles.
You know that long, big room in the void that has three levels? I arched my shot to hit an ancient on the third level from the bottom one, than realised, there are curly smoke trails coming back at me. Rolling did not save me there.

Those cluster bombs... they are evil.

[Jicematoro]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

HOW THE HELL DO YOU PENTA URSELF!?

Penta's Grenades are glitchy, if they hit water or a couple other random map decorations, they explode, if they hit walls in a weird angle, they explode, Nullifier Bubbles? They explode. And let's not even start talking about the weird Bounce interactions they have.

[Fallen_Echo]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

people are not detinating them, and are running around forgetting where they are and blowing them self up, its not the gun doing it

people are asking for hud upgrades cause of self damage....

i ask u again 

HOW THE HELL DO YOU PENTA URSELF!?

You know that penta mod the tether grenades? It has a hidden 8-10 sec timer, when it goes down the grenades explode.

Also as i said several enemies namely shield lancers, bursas and possibly the nullfiers bubble can prematurely blow up the projectile.

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, Sloan441 said:

In WF, we did see the Tonkor largely displace most other weapons--AoE and otherwise. I remember the period quite well and it was a rare PuG that didn't have at least one Tonkor in it. People did favor this weapon over most others because it had hellish power and was AoE. There was no downside to using this weapon. None. It was so bad that you had people even bringing this weapon to sorties where elemental damage was resisted then becoming utterly incredulous that their favorite boomstick was doing bupkiss for damage. Duh.

The Spamulor Simtastic was a somewhat different issue in the way it works, but here you had a weapon that was AoE, had no downside in use, and supplanted most CC warframes into the bargain. Oh, and it did outrageous damage, though a goodly part of this was from the nearly omnipresent Mirage wielding it. Nevertheless, the thing was everywhere and it was a rare PuG that didn't have at least one Mirage with the damned thing running around in it.

If you have AoE weapons with equivalent damage and no downside while using it, those weapons will supplant single target weapons very quickly, and why not? There's no downside. Self-damage is a balancer to that. It might not be the only one, but it'll prevent running around willy-nilly while standing on the trigger.

Im not sure i was here in the golden age of tonkor because when i started to play it was a rare sight on the other side i did many matches where every one of us used the soma prime.

The spamulor is still rolling, its the mirages who somehow died out, but still whenever i see a mirage nowadays she always have the synsim equipped.

 

To be fair i wouldnt have any problems with self damage if the risk would worth it, but sadly thats not the case on most explosives. The kulstar barely tickles most mobs and still can obliterate 90% of our frames. IF these weapons would deal horrifying damage like the pre-nerf tonkor than i would be okay with it, but thats not the case.

[Fallen_Echo]

26 minutes ago, Recel said:

One weapon i absolutely don't like self damage on is the Zarr. I swear, half the time those little cluster bombs come back towards me, sometimes even from miles.
You know that long, big room in the void that has three levels? I arched my shot to hit an ancient on the third level from the bottom one, than realised, there are curly smoke trails coming back at me. Rolling did not save me there.

Those cluster bombs... they are evil.

Thats a bug, they officially stated in one of the patches that they removed the self damage from the cluster bombs.

[Chipputer]

7 hours ago, -Temp0- said:

Apparently it's hard af to restrain yourself from creating weapons with dumb archaic mechanics because you want to cover up the nerfs more easily.

>Self damage
>archaic mechanics
>somehow related to nerfs

I don't think you know what the term, "archaic," means let alone how the mechanic is related to buffs and nerfs. Way to string together buzzwords to get a reaction, though. That's buzzfeed tier.

[torint_man]

Self damage as a concept is fine, it is just unfair that you die in one shot no matter what, regardless of your health and shields. Shield gating should remedy this once implemented, but that leaves nothing for health based frames. Just make a basic cap of 70% eHP and that should make it balanced, along with compensating for multishot so you don't die anyway. Losing 70% of your eHP is a sufficient and fair consequence, insta dying is not.

[Recel]

4 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Thats a bug, they officially stated in one of the patches that they removed the self damage from the cluster bombs.

Might actually play with the Zarr again than.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

6 hours ago, Emulad0or said:

I used the shotgun on my previous argument because people get killed trying to use a launcher in close range.

That wasn't the reason I mentioned shotguns. The reason I mentioned shotguns was because of this part of the post I replied to:

7 hours ago, Emulad0or said:

Self-damage balances the power/aoe of a weapon with a drawback

And I was pointing out that our current shotguns have more power with similar AoE (3.3m Punchthrough vs ~5m AoE) and fewer to no drawbacks. Also;

6 hours ago, Emulad0or said:

Status at any range? True, so what? Even if we forget to take into account the shotgun pellet spread keeping you from applying the status to the target at long range, and the damage fall off, launchers are more focused on pure damage, not in status. That is like saying any status weapon is superior to crit/pure damage weapon in any given situation.
Travel time? Since when that was a problem? Launchers are AoE weapons, you don't need to be hitting headshots to kill stuff, you need to hit somewhere close (not even hit the target) to deal damage

Status chance far outpaces crit and raw damage above level 80 for Grineer and level 100 for the other factions. The reason this matters ties in to my above statement: At ~20m, my Tigris Prime will one-shot (technically two, but still only one click) a heavy Grineer unit up to about level 120. A Lenz, Zarr, Tonkor, etc. will all fail far before this. At 100+ meters, my Tigris Prime (which has ridiculously low spread) will still 'one-shot' a heavy Grineer unit up to level 100 if I let the bleed damage finish it off. Even at this extreme distance, where launchers *should* be better than shotguns, the strongest launcher still fails to kill a level 100 heavy Grineer enemy in one hit. If launchers are supposed to be so powerful that you are forced to use them at long range, why does a shotgun do it better without that limitation?

[Emulad0or]

5 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Status chance far outpaces crit and raw damage above level 80 for Grineer and level 100 for the other factions. The reason this matters ties in to my above statement: At ~20m, my Tigris Prime will one-shot (technically two, but still only one click) a heavy Grineer unit up to about level 120. A Lenz, Zarr, Tonkor, etc. will all fail far before this. At 100+ meters, my Tigris Prime (which has ridiculously low spread) will still 'one-shot' a heavy Grineer unit up to level 100 if I let the bleed damage finish it off. Even at this extreme distance, where launchers *should* be better than shotguns, the strongest launcher still fails to kill a level 100 heavy Grineer enemy in one hit. If launchers are supposed to be so powerful that you are forced to use them at long range, why does a shotgun do it better without that limitation?

That would be a problem with armor excalation, so I will not get into that since it's not the topic of the thread. Instead, I'll go for the factions, since this game has more than just Grinner.

Ok, so, Grineer aside (for the reason stated above), not only Launchers are stronger a long range, they can kill multiple enemies, without the need actually aim at them, just shoot somewhere around them and watch all the blue numbers. Sure, other weapons can have punchthrough, but they still don't have AoE. 
Now back to the self damage, how hard it is to just not shoot an enemy at close range if you have a launcher? There is melee that you can quickmelee, you can always change to the secondary weapon to deal with enemies close... It's not like, if you go Penta, you can never kill stuff close to you that game. And again, getting the self damage out, would just create new "simulors", just walk around shooting your feet and killing everything around

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

13 minutes ago, Emulad0or said:

That would be a problem with armor excalation, so I will not get into that since it's not the topic of the thread. Instead, I'll go for the factions, since this game has more than just Grinner.

Ok, so, Grineer aside (for the reason stated above), not only Launchers are stronger a long range, they can kill multiple enemies, without the need actually aim at them, just shoot somewhere around them and watch all the blue numbers. Sure, other weapons can have punchthrough, but they still don't have AoE. 
Now back to the self damage, how hard it is to just not shoot an enemy at close range if you have a launcher? There is melee that you can quickmelee, you can always change to the secondary weapon to deal with enemies close... It's not like, if you go Penta, you can never kill stuff close to you that game. And again, getting the self damage out, would just create new "simulors", just walk around shooting your feet and killing everything around

Ok then, since we are in the realm of hypotheticals: say you are ranking up the Plasma Sword (because it's MR fodder and you just finished building it) and you are using the Penta and the Angstrum on Vauban (or, for another theme, the Zarr and the Kulstar on Hydroid). How would you kill an in-your-face enemy when you have run out of energy for CC?

Please note, though, that my previous statements never said the you should be able to shot at your feet willy-nilly with a launcher. I merely said that the 'powerful weapons need drawbacks' argument for self-damage is not applicable to the current state of the game. There are other arguments for it, which I allude to in my first post, and I agree with some of them. Just not this one.

Edited September 11, 2017 by -AoN-CanoLathra-

[Jezs]

It's always fun when a door closes in front of you right when you fire

[Silvus-Sol]

I'm fine with explosives having self-damage. I am NOT fine with explosives having self-insta-kills.

Self-damage needs some kind of diminishing returns so that you cannot instantly die from it. I'm thinking those returns should start at around 30% of the players EHP and soft-cap at 50%. So it hurts bad enough to discourage reckless use, but you're not suddenly looking at a revive screen every time an ally/railing/door/ghost/etc crosses your line of fire.

Edited September 11, 2017 by Silvus-Sol

[Fallen_Echo]

8 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Ok then, since we are in the realm of hypotheticals: say you are ranking up the Plasma Sword (because it's MR fodder and you just finished building it) and you are using the Penta and the Angstrum on Vauban (or, for another theme, the Zarr and the Kulstar on Hydroid). How would you kill an in-your-face enemy when you have run out of energy for CC?

Please note, though, that my previous statements never said the you should be able to shot at your feet willy-nilly with a launcher. I merely said that the 'powerful weapons need drawbacks' argument for self-damage is not applicable to the current state of the game. There are other arguments for it, which I allude to in my first post, and I agree with some of them. Just not this one.

Dont even try, he just cant imagine any sceniario here where you can kill yourself with a launcher if you dont shot at your feet. He obviously never seen these:

-Bugged hitboxes on pillars, boxes, enviroment

-hidden timer or the tether grenade mod

-unpredictable movement of the ai and the players

-sentinels deciding to deflect your own explosives

-enemies who force explosives to blow up

-enviroment glitching causing explosions

-unclear aoe ranges

-unpredictable player skill use

-hook bombing (ancient and scorpions pull you into your own rocket/grenade)

-nullfier reflection issues

-nullfier shield touch explosion

-general unpredictable grenade movement

-door glitches and unpredictability

[Andaius]

9 hours ago, torint_man said:

Self damage as a concept is fine, it is just unfair that you die in one shot no matter what, regardless of your health and shields. Shield gating should remedy this once implemented, but that leaves nothing for health based frames. Just make a basic cap of 70% eHP and that should make it balanced, along with compensating for multishot so you don't die anyway. Losing 70% of your eHP is a sufficient and fair consequence, insta dying is not.

Your killing yourself because your hitting yourself with "god tier" levels of damage!

[torint_man]

56 minutes ago, Andaius said:

Your killing yourself because your hitting yourself with "god tier" levels of damage!

*Your're

Anyway, self damage that is based on the actual numbers of the weapon you are using in the context of warframe guarantees death. That is simply due to the fact that enemy health far exceeds that of our own, which dictates that the damage we deal would kill us literally 10 times over if aimed at ourselves. It doesn't matter if the damage you deal is "god tier" or not, you kill yourself regardless, as it matters not if you killed yourself 5 times over or 20 times over. As such, the only way to make self damage fair is to either make it deal a set % of health, or deal a set amount that does not increase ever (as in the base damage unmodded). Both have their pros and cons. The former forces a baseline that affects everyone equally, which some may like as it dictates a certain degree of care regardless of frame, and others may dislike it for the same reason as both inaros and loki would be affected equally. The latter I'm inclined to think of as better as tanky frames are allowed to be tanky, and squishy frames stay squishy, with the hopefully soon to be shield gate being their only line of defense. The elitist crowd which I can clearly see in the thread would find it disagreeable as frames like nidus, chroma and inaros would have impunity in regards towards self damage, but that I am inclined to think to be fine since they are, you know, tank frames, which, you know, tank things.

[Emulad0or]

13 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Ok then, since we are in the realm of hypotheticals: say you are ranking up the Plasma Sword (because it's MR fodder and you just finished building it) and you are using the Penta and the Angstrum on Vauban (or, for another theme, the Zarr and the Kulstar on Hydroid). How would you kill an in-your-face enemy when you have run out of energy for CC?

So you chose to take not one, but 2 launchers? Ok, you can still bullet jump away from the enemy, then shoot it. But hey, you chose to take those weapons, if you only take close range weapons, how are you going to kill something from afar? (and you can use Zarr,'s alt fire for close rage). Following you line of thought, I want to go melee only to a mission, but I want to be able to kill enemies far away, without the need to throw my weapon and stay unarmed until it comes back...

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

2 hours ago, Emulad0or said:

Following you line of thought, I want to go melee only to a mission, but I want to be able to kill enemies far away, without the need to throw my weapon and stay unarmed until it comes back...

One word for you: Redeemer. Or Sarpa, if you would rather.

 

[Emulad0or]

4 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

One word for you: Redeemer. Or Sarpa, if you would rather.

 

Redeemer: Damage fall off
Sarpa: Damage fall off

Where is the long range on that? That is again, trying to snipe with a shotgun.

So there you go, different weapons for different situations, and launchers are not meant for close range combat

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

16 minutes ago, Emulad0or said:

Redeemer: Damage fall off
Sarpa: Damage fall off

Where is the long range on that? That is again, trying to snipe with a shotgun.

So there you go, different weapons for different situations, and launchers are not meant for close range combat

We clearly cannot agree on anything, so let's simply agree to disagree and leave it at that. If you count that as a petty victory so be it.

[ArbitUHM]

The problem with the weapon switching argument ("just switch to a close range weapon when enemies get close") is that weapon switching sucks horribly in this game and is better suited for a slow paced tactical shooter rather than the fast paced horde-mode shooter that Warframe is. There are tons of winding corridors, doors, and corners in this game. Basically what happens is I turn a corner and whoops there's an enemy and they're too close, I have to back off and pull out my secondary. At the next corner I think, oh I'll preemptively take out my secondary, but this time the enemy is far away enough to use my explosive weapon, but whoops, by the time I've switched back they're too close and it's back to secondary. The practical effect is that I end up with my secondary out 95% of the time because weapon switching is such a slow and clunky pain in the &#!.

DE also has been adding a lot of mods and mechanics that actively discourage weapon switching, timed combo meters for snipers and melee weapons being a primary example. There are also a slew of mods that key off of said combo meters, which discourages using quickmelee. There are also mods that add bonuses based on ADS and headshots which do not play well with weapon switching.

There's also the plain fact that, for every second you are weapon switching or backing off trying to maintain space to use your explosive weapons, you are losing DPS and allowing your enemies to build up to critical mass. If you consider that someone with a hitscan rifle can just start immediately shooting, the paper DPS of an explosive weapon has to be enormous (or you have to enormously inflate it by assuming you are shooting 100% of the time and hitting 5+ enemies) in order to compete with the DPS of a standard hitscan weapon.

An explosive weapon pretty much has to deal insane damage or deal no self damage in order to be used, which rules out the lion's share of explosive weapons.

[Cloudyvisage]

DE seems to be working to change how these interactions work, Lenz was what appears to be the start of that and when that worked out phenomenally they did it to the... Shoot, whats the Grineer explosive staff weapon you can throw... whatever, that weapon got modified very shortly afterward, if they show where the weapon will detonate they can make it so players can realize when their grenades bounces off who knows what, perhaps the very air in front of you it seems sometimes and react to it, not perfect but at least less punishing for things outside your influence.

[(PSN)fullblast35]

DE needs to add toggle for friendly fire in game so they understand what an explosion is.  

[grimdraken]

I've been away for a long time, and I've just read this thread to realise my Tonkor was one-shotting me on Lua.  I've got to shelve it now, even though it's got far too many forma on it.  Sigh.  I have a lot to re-learn and adapt to, I can see.