Finish Alt Helm Help (Tennogen)

[(PSN)AxcelTheBean]

Okay so I'm making an alt helm in the sculpting program Blender for TennoGen, and now I don't know what to do or where to go next. I know that I need to make it more smooth and detailed and stuff, but I don't know how. Anyone have tips?

 

Btw what frame do it look good with?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pgMrSWcJpWqCpYynw4eu46j1V2zp7Tynq-5rXzbTSiE/edit?usp=sharing

[DarkRuler2500]

What warframe is it for? Loki?
That would be important.
The helmet itself looks very undefined, it is missing details by a large margin.

[(PSN)AxcelTheBean]

2 minutes ago, DarkRuler2500 said:

The helmet itself looks very undefined, it is missing details by a large margin.

Me: "I know that I need to make it more smooth and detailed and stuff, but I don't know how"

[DarkRuler2500]

Yeah i read that but without knowing what frame is it for exactly, I cannot give any good advices.
Depending on frame the details should vary.

[(PSN)AxcelTheBean]

1 minute ago, DarkRuler2500 said:

Yeah i read that but without knowing what frame is it for exactly, I cannot give any good advices.
Depending on frame the details should vary.

What I'm trying to ask is what sort of tools or tech should I use to make the details. I know I have to make them myself and everything, but I don't know how.

[InDueTime-EN-]

I too wish to learn more about this. 

[InDueTime-EN-]

Here's what I know, most of the the detailing can be done through texture maps. Mainly the normal map, bump map, specular, and diffuse map. I think what you need to focus on for now is the bump map. 
Here's what I found. But I haven't actually tried it. 

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Blender_3D:_Noob_to_Pro/Bump_Mapping

[Nicococo]

If you started with the low polygon model first, you're doing this wrong. You need to start with the high polygon model first, then build the low polygon model on top of that through retopology. You'll then need to UV unwrap the low polygon model to be able to bake the normal and AO maps. You'll be able to build the diffuse, specular and tint maps using the normal and AO maps as a base. Hope that helps you.

[InDueTime-EN-]

33 minutes ago, Nicococo said:

You need to start with the high polygon model first, then build the low polygon model on top of that through retopology. You'll then need to UV unwrap the low polygon model to be able to bake the normal and AO maps. You'll be able to build the diffuse, specular and tint maps using the normal and AO maps as a base. Hope that helps you.

 

Any chance you can give some specific instructions on how to do this in Blender? Or maybe a link to a guide.

[Nicococo]

11 hours ago, InDueTime-EN- said:

Any chance you can give some specific instructions on how to do this in Blender? Or maybe a link to a guide.

Sure, Ill try to do this if the OP wants this info. It might not be what he/she is looking for?

[(PSN)AxcelTheBean]

12 hours ago, Nicococo said:

Sure, Ill try to do this if the OP wants this info. It might not be what he/she is looking for?

I assume the OP is the original poster, and yes, he would very much appreciate it.

I am quite pressed for time nowadays, so I can't spend it looking through all the videos.

[Nicococo]

I started preparing a slide show of sorts of how to do certain things in blender and it might not be too specific but hopefully itll help you out. Ive got to the part about baking out textures and blender is just not good at it. Im going to do this using xnormal. Just to let you know, Its also a free program and it works great.

[Rekkou]

6 minutes ago, Nicococo said:

I started preparing a slide show of sorts of how to do certain things in blender and it might not be too specific but hopefully itll help you out. Ive got to the part about baking out textures and blender is just not good at it. Im going to do this using xnormal. Just to let you know, Its also a free program and it works great.

A bit warning that normals generated by xnormal isn't very compatible with evolution engine used by warframe. If you make mirrored mesh and UV, you will ended up with visible normal seam especially on the front of your helmet. If you have no other option, then make sure to wrap the front of your helmet as single non-mirrored UV

[Nicococo]

1 hour ago, Rekkou said:

A bit warning that normals generated by xnormal isn't very compatible with evolution engine used by warframe. If you make mirrored mesh and UV, you will ended up with visible normal seam especially on the front of your helmet. If you have no other option, then make sure to wrap the front of your helmet as single non-mirrored UV

Yeah it is. You just need to swap out the +Y to -Y in the tangent normal map swizzle. This is so the normal map works within the directX api. Also, the basic art guide says it uses mikktspace, which is essentially xnormal. In order to remove that seam you need to move the mirrored island over to the 0-1 UV space.

[Rekkou]

3 hours ago, Nicococo said:

Yeah it is. You just need to swap out the +Y to -Y in the tangent normal map swizzle. This is so the normal map works within the directX api. Also, the basic art guide says it uses mikktspace, which is essentially xnormal. In order to remove that seam you need to move the mirrored island over to the 0-1 UV space.

I already did and it's still there. The seam won't be apparent on other renderer even on tennogen tool, and will only be visible in game under certain lighting condition. The main problem is that the only way to know is to have your items accepted. So it's not an issue that you can immediately notice and fix. That's why i just choose a way that can avoid the problem entirely.

[removed image]

Edited September 17, 2017 by Rekkou

[Nicococo]

Cant see the image.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Nicococo

[Rekkou]

Just now, Nicococo said:

Cant see the image.

Eh, photobucket is no longer free apparently, nothing i can do for now.

[Nicococo]

29 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

Eh, photobucket is no longer free apparently, nothing i can do for now.

Try imgur.

[Rekkou]

20 minutes ago, Nicococo said:

Try imgur.

To tell you the truth, I'm not that enthusiastic about the matter to make a new account just for discussing it. I'm merely giving warning based on my past experience, the rest is up to you.

[InDueTime-EN-]

On 9/15/2017 at 8:00 AM, Nicococo said:

You need to start with the high polygon model first,

 

When I do this, should I make the model as close as I can to the concept? Including all the details that can be done with texture maps?

[Nicococo]

55 minutes ago, InDueTime-EN- said:

When I do this, should I make the model as close as I can to the concept? Including all the details that can be done with texture maps?

If you're working with a concept its good to stick with it but dont cherish it like its your son. Be prepared to make changes here and there to make it better or to fall in line with the art direction. This may even mean starting all over to meet some of the devs demands. 

Dont use texture maps on the high polygon mesh. Use geometric detail so that detail can be baked onto the low polygon mesh. You can always add in some small details to the in game textures, like screws and vents and stuff like that through normal maps. I hope you understand.

[InDueTime-EN-]

8 minutes ago, Nicococo said:

If you're working with a concept its good to stick with it but dont cherish it like its your son. Be prepared to make changes here and there to make it better or to fall in line with the art direction. This may even mean starting all over to meet some of the devs demands. 

Dont use texture maps on the high polygon mesh. Use geometric detail so that detail can be baked onto the low polygon mesh. You can always add in some small details to the in game textures, like screws and vents and stuff like that through normal maps. I hope you understand.

I understand some of it. You talked about retopology and I think I get the idea. But I want to ask if it is good to start with a high poly detailed version and then just move some of the details into the normal maps like the screws and vents or would it be better to just skip some of those details in the high poly version?

[Nicococo]

1 minute ago, InDueTime-EN- said:

I understand some of it. You talked about retopology and I think I get the idea. But I want to ask if it is good to start with a high poly detailed version and then just move some of the details into the normal maps like the screws and vents or would it be better to just skip some of those details in the high poly version?

Yeah you can do that. You could make the more important, larger areas in the high polygon mesh through actual geometry and then add all the smaller details in the texture creation portion of the process. You can also put in all those details in the high poly mesh if you want but all of it might be lost in the baking process, due to UV distortion, UV texel density and texture resolution.

[InDueTime-EN-]

10 minutes ago, Nicococo said:

Yeah you can do that. You could make the more important, larger areas in the high polygon mesh through actual geometry and then add all the smaller details in the texture creation portion of the process. You can also put in all those details in the high poly mesh if you want but all of it might be lost in the baking process, due to UV distortion, UV texel density and texture resolution.

I see, so it would be better to leave the smaller details out of it because it might be removed anyway?

[Nicococo]

3 minutes ago, InDueTime-EN- said:

I see, so it would be better to leave the smaller details out of it because it might be removed anyway?

Not removed but blurred down and hard to distinguish in the ingame textures. You just need to learn to balance out smaller details all over the mesh, dont add in too much small detail and dont make them too small given that this is a 3rd person game and you wont even see all of that.