when are you nerfing condition overload? if you wont give it to the firearms as well pls.

[Emulad0or]

18 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

combo counters bonus also goes towards CO build, so its pointless to bring it here. 

"it gives %165 for each of those multipliers". it would mean every 0.5 multiplier (since you listed every 0.5 increase) gives you %165. which is incorrect.

 

45 minutes ago, Emulad0or said:

 

true, but taking the same 2.0x _{(Combo Multiplier)} from the previous exemple, you would still be geting 1220% from Crit and only 1110% from Status (that you would need several attacks to apply every single proc to get to that 1110%). Still weaker vs enemies without armor/enemies in general up to lvl 120

I'm done here, for the next replies, please read what I've already said in this thread, I'm sure I already answered whatever the issue may be

[nnexenn]

you don't now how blood rush works. here's your example.

Spoiler

you need 4x damage multiplier. with a venka prime and with his pasive is not rare.

 

here are the two at higher values,

Spoiler

the two mods have they pros and cons. they not need to be nerfed, we need another mod for exalted weapons

[DrBorris]

The thing with CO is that it is only effective when it takes multiple hits to kill an enemy (unless you are running a specialized lead-out, and if that is the case then it should be powerful). Compared to pretty much every other melee mod that increases your alpha damage, CO helps with sustain. Just because it kills a level 150 Bombard faster, it does not mean it is always the best for all levels of content, sometimes it is better to put in another mod so you can easier one-shot enemies.

[Zeclem]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Just for these kind of threads i saved this down and im glad i done it.

thats old tonkor main thinking rt.

1 hour ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

Let's show you some math here. 

Jat Kusar with an Organ Shatter has a 4.8x crit multiplier. At 200% crit chance (which it reaches at the 3x combo counter while not using another crit chance mod. Add in True Steel, and it reaches 200% crit chance at the 2x melee multiplier), it gets a grand total of 9.6x crit mult, which equals 960% damage. Compare that to the 555% you listed in your earlier posts. One of those is much higher than the other. (It's NOT the 555%)

Yes, Condition Overload does it faster, but crit weapons scale far higher in raw damage output as you go further. 

add in combo counter to that %555, and tell me what do you get. combo counter is not special to crit builds. %1110>%960. and CO has quite a high cap still and it reaches it much faster than crit can catch up to it.

1 hour ago, Emulad0or said:

 

I'm done here, for the next replies, please read what I've already said in this thread, I'm sure I already answered whatever the issue may be

the thing is, youre talking about weapons as if they get flat crit chance.

%330 crit chance doesnt mean weapon will get that amount of crit in a flat amount. %330 crit buff from bloodrush on a weapon that has %35 crit chance will net in a %150 crit chance total. so how will a weapon that has %150 crit chance(which approx has %150 damage buff on a wep that has 2.0 crit multiplier) can compete with %1110? 

@nnexennmind showing the builds? just so i can see the build with 4 elemental procs(which is quite easy to get btw) and no riven mods since theyre not counted within game balance. or dont, considering i did shown actual builds that should be considered in a balance discussion since they dont include rivens in it and doesnt bias the proof via undercutting neither of the builds.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Zeclem

[nnexenn]

ahhhh is the same build you used fine give me a second

the trick is in te combo counter

[TrickshotMcGee]

3 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

%1110>%960

Oh, we're adding in combo counter damage? That 960% is ONLY crit multiplier and NOT combo counter damage bonus. If it's also combo counter damage, then it becomes 1920%. Which is still more than CO. 

[phoenix1992]

While pasting the picture it ate my text, oops.

OP does this come from you not having plat for Meme strike, or from some rather twisted representation of how Melee in the game works? CO can't hold candle to Blood Rush builds right now, unless we are talking to very specific fringe builds that work in very limited situations.

Edited September 18, 2017 by phoenix1992

[AcceptYourDeath]

The more time went by the more I dislike Condition Overload. It is once again a situation making alot of "things" and gameplay obsolete or somewhat pointless, less effective.

1. Warframe is very much in melee meta for a while now and I don`t think melee combat needed even more buffing primarily by Condition Overload and rivens now. Condition Overload is another big step to make all primarys and secondarys kinda irrelevant.

2. On top of very likely being the biggest power boost to melee combat, Condition Overload is also watering down its own weapon catergory. It doesn`t matter all that much what weapon you choose at the moment, what stats they have. Or which riven you own with alot of work put into it? Condition Overload does so much work in itself.

3. Condition Overload is another step for making Kubrows the worst choice, sentinel weapons whit a chance for status are extremly beneficial with Condition Overload along. 

4. While saying we shouldn`t have so many mandatory mods a while ago, Condition Overload cleary became such a mandatory mod. Moding melee weapons is EXTREMELY DULL with almost or none variation to it. 

 

All in all I`d say general balancing for Warframe has become a matter of "whatever" for a while now and Condition Overload is a prime example for this attitude. Here is an idea, instead of trolling us every now and then with primed chamber being a thing and not being a thing, how about having a insanely powerful mod for sniper rifles? I guess spamming whips is also fine, so much fun! A joke is only funny that long..... 

As much as I like this game the objective balance across the game is a joke at the moment. 

[Zeclem]

18 minutes ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

Oh, we're adding in combo counter damage? That 960% is ONLY crit multiplier and NOT combo counter damage bonus. If it's also combo counter damage, then it becomes 1920%. Which is still more than CO. 

if we're to compare it on 3x (since bloodrush would need to get it to at least %200 crit chance), im pretty sure i can add a 5th element proc, considering how easy it is in most melees (that arent pure elemental) to have 5 elements on it for a status build. which makes CO's damage multiplier to be %1049. and i can assure you its a LOT faster than getting 45 hits in your combo counter. and that damage buff is without combo multiplier as well. add in that 3x combo multiplier and you get a whooping %3147 compared to crits %2880.

its a lot faster to get, it has much more damage and also has much more utility. 

oh and for the further record, that %555 is not damage multiplier, its the amount of damage you'd get as extra. actual damage multiplier is %655. 

@phoenix1992i have bloodrush, maiming strike and any other mod i had talked about. and numbers arent exactly supporting your argument of CO not being able to handle bloodrush builds. in fact its very much the opposite.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Zeclem

[nnexenn]

you can use combo counter with co. o put 4x from cc to the two builds.

blood rush.

Spoiler

condition overload.

Spoiler

if you put organ shatter in the CO build you have more dps.

Spoiler

 

Edited September 18, 2017 by nnexenn

[phoenix1992]

6 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

if we're to compare it on 3x (since bloodrush would need to get it to at least %200 crit chance), im pretty sure i can add a 5th element proc, considering how easy it is in most melees (that arent pure elemental) to have 5 elements on it for a status build. which makes CO's damage multiplier to be %1049. and i can assure you its a LOT faster than getting 45 hits in your combo counter. and that damage buff is without combo multiplier as well. add in that 3x combo multiplier and you get a whooping %3147. 

its a lot faster to get, it has much more damage and also has much more utility. 

oh and for the further record, that %555 is not damage multiplier, its the amount of damage you'd get as extra. actual damage multiplier is %655. 

@phoenix1992i have bloodrush, maiming strike and any other mod i had talked about. and numbers arent exactly supporting your argument of CO not being able to handle bloodrush builds. in fact its very much the opposite.

Well you have your opinion but...

If you have all the mods listed in this topic, you are also well aware that the power of Blood Rush builds is not on Single target. Ramping up multiplier in Current Warframe is hilariously easy as long as you don't focus on Single target builds (and then you have Valkyr and stuff). 

But let's play the "fit the mods!" game in a weapon

Example : Orthos prime (because it is oldie and it does not seems to want to be removed form the primed drop table)

Primed Pressure Point, Primed Reach, Berserker (fine, fit Primed fury), Riven, from then on we split in either :
CO + 3 elemental mods (let's ignore Event mods for the sake of the argument)
or
Blood Rush + Drifting Contact + Corrosive/Viral (we are putting memeing strike aside, ok?)

So you CO on a blank status frame will Hit only with the main status + the fused status + additional status - 180% damage? 
The crit build on the other hand will go into the x3 modifier relatively fast and keep on pumping in the long run.

So.... 
You want to remove burst Single target builds CO builds. Because yes - for sure, CO will have a head start. On Extermination/Capture/Sabotage missions. Not on any unlimited mod, not by a long stretch.
 

[Zeclem]

@nnexennif a weapon has %50 status and its fast like venkas are, im p sure just giving it 3 status procs is not doing it justice.

@phoenix1992im more interested in how you got the %180 dmg multiplier from three status procs since its actually %410. without the combo counter of 3. 

Edited September 18, 2017 by Zeclem

[nnexenn]

how much you think 4 or 5?

[TrickshotMcGee]

19 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

its a lot faster to get, it has much more damage and also has much more utility. 

I admitted it was much faster in an earlier post. That's not up for debate because it's clear that administering status procs is faster than building combo counter. But the fact is that it's not actually stronger. Blood Rush scales crit multipliers far past what's feasibly possible for CO, because once you have your max sustainable status procs, then you've hit your DPS cap. Blood Rush keeps incrementally buffing cit damage further and further. It has a cap that is far higher than anything CO can reach. Yeah it may take 20 minutes to get to a 4x combo, but a CO build weapon won't be capable of doing more damage than a Blood Rush weapon. Especially one with a high critical multiplier. 

 

Status has also always had more utility, ever since before CO. I have liked status since before CO, and still like it with the mod. But, objectively, it doesn't scale as high because your damage bonuses from different status procs cap while crit multiplying goes much further. And damage calculation should never include combo counter damage. Every weapon gets that, and only Venka prime has different mechanics, so it's not necessary to mention and only makes the numbers more convoluted. 

Edited September 18, 2017 by TrickshotMcGee

[Tricky5hift]

16 minutes ago, nnexenn said:

you can use combo counter with co. o put 4x from cc to the two builds.

blood rush.

  Reveal hidden contents

condition overload.

  Reveal hidden contents

if you put organ shatter in the CO build you have more dps.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Honestly, the difference in total damage is negligible.

The point is, both builds work good and neither has a real advantage over the other.

[RobWasHere]

That's the point of PvE game - you can play it however you want. Some weapons can deal damage with some utility, some by raw damage. Deal with it. I'd like to point that you can mix both on certain weapons and get even more absurd damage.

[phoenix1992]

7 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

@nnexennif a weapon has %50 status and its fast like venkas are, im p sure just giving it 3 status procs is not doing it justice.

@phoenix1992im more interested in how you got the %180 dmg multiplier from three status procs since its actually %410. without the combo counter of 3. 

I am more interested in how you think you can uphold x410 all the time on single target without loosing a lot of base damage. I gave you Orthos prime as example of reason, fringe builds are another bear all together.

[Zeclem]

 

1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

I am more interested in how you think you can uphold x410 all the time on single target without loosing a lot of base damage. I gave you Orthos prime as example of reason, fringe builds are another bear all together.

if you cant manage to have 3 procs on an enemy, then youre simply building wrong. going status doesnt cost you base damage since you often use like 3 or 4 dual stat mods which (in 3's case) give same base damage as 2 90 elementals that crit builds mostly allow. 4(which is not really hard btw) just has more base damage. so yeah.

1 minute ago, RobWasHere said:

That's the point of PvE game - you can play it however you want. Some weapons can deal damage with some utility, some by raw damage. Deal with it. I'd like to point that you can mix both on certain weapons and get even more absurd damage.

you can mix both on certain weps yes, but those weapons are lot less common than CO viable weapons which is like more than %90 of melee weapon arsenal.

7 minutes ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

I admitted it was much faster in an earlier post. That's not up for debate because it's clear that administering status procs is faster than building combo counter. But the fact is that it's not actually stronger. Blood Rush scales crit multipliers far past what's feasibly possible for CO, because once you have your max sustainable status procs, then you've hit your DPS cap. Blood Rush keeps incrementally buffing cit damage further and further. It has a cap that is far higher than anything CO can reach. Yeah it may take 20 minutes to get to a 4x combo, but a CO build weapon won't be capable of doing more damage than a Blood Rush weapon. Especially one with a high critical multiplier. 

 

Status has also always had more utility, ever since before CO. I have liked status since before CO, and still like it with the mod. But, objectively, it doesn't scale as high because your damage bonuses from different status procs cap while crit multiplying goes much further. And damage calculation should never include combo counter damage. Every weapon gets that, and only Venka prime has different mechanics, so it's not necessary to mention and only makes the numbers more convoluted. 

the "cap" is vastly more than enough to decimate enemies that are above sortie 3 level. if we arent talking about endurance runs, CO is simply better cus of how much faster it stacks its damage overall. and even in endurance runs CO doesnt lose its value since it also effects both types of finishers which quite an amount of weapons have on their stances(single swords, fists, nikanas, rapiers, staves if to name some if not all). 

your sustainable status procs on a melee weapon only is around 4/5. how longer does it take for a crit weapon to stack up that damage compared to it? and im not even getting into losing the combo you stacked between rounds in certain missions. 

if we were to compare it for more endurance runs, then you can easily add more to that through your other weapons. just using artax on your sentinel adds one to that number by itself, for example. sure, in those runs crit will catch up to CO at some point and beat it (if its not a mission that has rounds that is), but are those really where the game is balanced around? i really doubt that.

[phoenix1992]

1 minute ago, Zeclem said:

15 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

I am more interested in how you think you can uphold x410 all the time on single target without loosing a lot of base damage. I gave you Orthos prime as example of reason, fringe builds are another bear all together.

if you cant manage to have 3 procs on an enemy, then youre simply building wrong. going status doesnt cost you base damage since you often use like 3 or 4 dual stat mods which (in 3's case) give same base damage as 2 90 elementals that crit builds mostly allow. 4(which is not really hard btw) just has more base damage. so yeah.

15 minutes ago, RobWasHere said:

That's the point of PvE game - you can play it however you want. Some weapons can deal damage with some utility, some by raw damage. Deal with it. I'd like to point that you can mix both on certain weapons and get even more absurd damage.

you can mix both on certain weps yes, but those weapons are lot less common than CO viable weapons which is like more than %90 of melee weapon arsenal.

Prove those 2 points.
Not with theory crafting, but with cold hard results.
Don't forget to unpause the AI.

[Zeclem]

1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

Prove those 2 points.
Not with theory crafting, but with cold hard results.
Don't forget to unpause the AI.

guess you dont believe maths?

[phoenix1992]

Just now, Zeclem said:

guess you dont believe maths?

 

Guess I don't believe people that cherry pick arguments.  I told you that CO is harder hitting on Single Target, but not on unlimited mods. You disregarded that. You disregarded the unlimited ramp of the multiplier, the specific weapon that was given as an example and so on. And you ended with the baffling "90%" statement. Please repeat again how CO has Burst damage, and how bad it is for the game.

[tnccs215]

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

The thing with CO is that it is only effective when it takes multiple hits to kill an enemy (unless you are running a specialized lead-out, and if that is the case then it should be powerful). Compared to pretty much every other melee mod that increases your alpha damage, CO helps with sustain. Just because it kills a level 150 Bombard faster, it does not mean it is always the best for all levels of content, sometimes it is better to put in another mod so you can easier one-shot enemies.

While true, the shear amount of power most weapons have means that, at the levels on which condition overload doesn't matter, neither does pretty much anything. 

That is, we're able to one shot (or similar) up to such high levels that between keeping CO or swapping it out, you're better off saving yourself the hassle of changing it. 

[Fallen_Echo]

49 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

thats old tonkor main thinking rt.

But its soo fitting, the two "endgame" melee build here depend on either co or the maiming strike combo.

You are here not suggesting balance or ways to fix the issues what brought in these mods, you are here to ask for a nerf because you dislike them.

[Zeclem]

13 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

 

Guess I don't believe people that cherry pick arguments.  I told you that CO is harder hitting on Single Target, but not on unlimited mods. You disregarded that. You disregarded the unlimited ramp of the multiplier, the specific weapon that was given as an example and so on. And you ended with the baffling "90%" statement. Please repeat again how CO has Burst damage, and how bad it is for the game.

how am i cherry picking arguments exactly? i have replied to every of those arguments. i didnt just "disregard" them. you claimed base damage would suffer at a status build, ive proven it with maths that it does not. if you dont know what 90 elemental mods are its not my problem, its yours.

@Fallen_Echo if only i didnt gave numbers to prove that this mod is overpowered. but yeah sure ive only said "nerf this cus i dont like it". its not like forums like reading proof that they dont like.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Zeclem

[phoenix1992]

46 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

how am i cherry picking arguments exactly? i have replied to every of those arguments. i didnt just "disregard" them. you claimed base damage would suffer at a status build, ive proven it with maths that it does not.

If your base damage is low, your multiplied damage will - guess what still be low, so CO will be only as good as the base output before CO is. For the sake of simplifying  I will just show you the issue in your math : 



Your basic damage before Elemental, CO or whatever.

Your base damage after adding 3x dual stat mods 

Again I am using Orthos because it is rather simple example for a melee, not in order to make it as convoluted as possible.
So what is your damage pre crit, pre status aplication or CO on a non armored target?
481.6 versus the 172.2 pre mods per attack  - again disregarding any modifiers that mingle with the math like how much is the actual damage intake from an enemy due to scaling, amor type, buffs/debufs.


Your generic pre riven build (I don't have a riven for this weapon and face it - Rivens make balancing impossible)

You want the 480% buff regardless of how reliable it is - fine, you have it 2119 hit. Oh you want to add Drifting contact instead of riven for sure status and longer combo window - sure thing. Go mingle with how this hit will land, But since I am pretty sure that going to the Simulacrom and testing 90% of the melee  weapons is too much for you : on 200 combo the average singe target hit is 3-4k with regular clits hitting for 10-15k if the elements are tweaked in order to deal with the specific enemy type (what you though I want to smack Heavy gunners with Slash and Rad?)

What about your le old crit build with cheap mods?

*orthos is screaming I am so tiny*
Between 5 and 20k crits on 150 modifier with a lot more consistency ( I actually ran out of enemies preddy damn fast and had to swap to 135 levels)
(again Don't worry i dropped True steel and Buzzkill for Corrosive)

Now if your bloody argument is "If I run a build that runs CO with mods that allow me to have extended counter I can wreck enemies at 600 + counter with ease" - sure. But mind that this is not a CO issue, it is a game scaling one.

PS: I can repeat the test with a Crit and Status Galatine Rivens (don't ask how i got two galatine rivens, it is a mystery), but if your argument will reach back towards what Ripkas and other fringe weapons do, do not use the 90% mark statement.

PS 2: Stuff die a lot faster with Drifting Contact, but hey I did not enter in debates if Weeping wounds/DC/God know which other combination mod wrecks faces fast.
PS 3: I actually had Arcane Fury and a additional dual stat mod for the first run (only dual stats and CO) so the damage output was higher but... ok. Arcane fury may have not pinged at all i swear.

Edited September 18, 2017 by phoenix1992