Ammunition And Rapid-Fire

[MangoMonkey]

This issue has been niggling at me, and I'd like to get it down now so we can all go "yes, soon DE will see this and life will be complete" or "no, burn in the hell of your own stupid, Mango".

Ammunition

I'd like to see this swapped to a more robust system, by directly altering the nature of ammunition drops, that rewards weapons more equally for the way in which they operate. As it stands now, rapid-fire weapons suffer unfairly in terms of ammo conservation despite dealing out no more damage, and suffering from higher-recoil and difficulties landing constant headshots than semi-automatic, while semi-automatic weapons (Latron/Seer/Lex) have little to no reason to ever have to look for ammunition drops. For the TL:DR folks out there, I'll sum it up: change ammunition drops to use the base magazine capacity of the weapons.

This is easiest to demonstrate with a direct comparison of the Braton, Grakata and the Latron. For this, we'll assume an enemy has 450 health and no mods are used. In order, the above guns deal 20, 9 and 40 damage respectively. So, the ammunition required to kill this enemy is:

Braton: 23 (22.5) rounds
Latron: 12 (11.25) rounds

Grakata: 50 rounds (wtf, DE!?)

 

Each has roughly the same base ammunition count at 540 (500 for the Latron) and all rifle pickups give a flat 20 ammunition. This gives the Latron incredible ammo economy per kill/damage count in comparison to the rapid-fire weapons and cripples low-damage, high fire-rate weapons such as the Vipers or the Grakata - even the Braton - in comparison. In terms of having a balanced and variable meta-game, a simple change could fix this issue.

By altering ammunition pick-ups to work off the base clip-size of a weapon, this issue could be changed to provide a more (not completely) balanced system. Let's say, for instance, we change the pick-ups to use 75% of the magazine size per grab. To use the table above, we can show how much ammunition each weapon would get back for their 450-health kill.

Braton: 23 rounds-to-kill / 45 base clip-size /  34 (33.75) rounds per pick-up

Latron: 12 rounds-to-kill / 15 base clip-size / 12 (11.25) rounds per pick-up
Grakata: 50 rounds-to-kill / 60 base clip size / 45 rounds per pick-up

As you can see, the Grakata still suffers "slightly" in comparison to the others but both other rifles receive their kill back. The Braton actually receives more than it took to kill, which is somewhat fair given the Latron's better accuracy (easier to land constant and consistent headshots, reducing shots needed to kill, and reducing the chance of expending any bullets as missed shots). It's also worth noting here that magazine capacity mods would directly increase the amount of ammunition picked up, and would have a much greater effect on the Grakata, which would further balance out this inequality.

Problems and Solutions

The obvious problem here is that not all guns are created equal, and issues arise when non-Assault Rifle weapons have small clip sizes. For example, the pistols would struggle entirely under this system at 75% (A single Viper would then only receive 10 rounds per pick-up). I'd suggest pistol drops to use a base clip-per-pickup system (100%), giving the Lex 6-rounds per grab and the Dual Vipers 28-round per pickup - this'd bring issues with a single Viper, but it would be the outlier case and would be a further reward for upgrading it to the Dual model.

Snipers bring another problem. Already, our ammunition drops are scarce enough. Truthfully, I haven't yet been able to work out how to fix this one. Giving ammunition on a 25-round per drop basis doesn't tie in with this revised system but is the only way I can think of to fix this issue. Any suggestions would be gratefully received.

Edited July 22, 2013 by MangoMonkey

[Dovahjim]

DE know about and are working on this! :)

[Jrgsubzero]

I can do little else but agree.

[MangoMonkey]

DE know about and are working on this! :)

They've been saying that for some time and I've no idea how far along they are with this plan. DE have a lot of plans and a lot on their plates, and it takes awhile for them to really sort things out. If the topic gets enough attention and people like it, maybe we can save them some work :)

[Mak_Gohae]

Aim for the head.

[Aerroon]

I agree, this is one of the first things ever I disliked about the game. I really like fully automatic type rifles but sadly in this game it seems such weapons are not meant to be.

[MangoMonkey]

Aim for the head.

*sigh* Yes, yes. Your aim is magnificent and your skills are unparalleled. You are a god amongst men, and those of us who clumsily drag our mouses across the feet of our foes dream of your elite skills.

You happy now? I factored head-shots and weapon accuracy into the post above, which I'm just going to go ahead and assume you didn't read.

[Lazer]

*sigh* Yes, yes. Your aim is magnificent and your skills are unparalleled. You are a god amongst men, and those of us who clumsily drag our mouses across the feet of our foes dream of your elite skills.

You happy now? I factored head-shots and weapon accuracy into the post above, which I'm just going to go ahead and assume you didn't read.

 

Hes attempting to get a reaction out of you (or anyone). 

[Mak_Gohae]

*sigh* Yes, yes. Your aim is magnificent and your skills are unparalleled. You are a god amongst men, and those of us who clumsily drag our mouses across the feet of our foes dream of your elite skills.

You happy now? I factored head-shots and weapon accuracy into the post above, which I'm just going to go ahead and assume you didn't read.

 

Not everything needs to be equal.

This is one of the banes of video games, for some strange reason people want a million options to all work the same. That doesnt mean you actually have an option that just means you have a different skin.

 

I LOVE that i have to actually put a bit work to get the Grakata working as well as the standard rifle. DE already adjusted the ammo drop system to the point where boxes aren't needed 99% of the time..... they dont really need to do that again for a handful of weapons. The double stat mods should further help these types of weapons if you are having this problem.

[Hayden11121]

DE know about and are working on this! :)

This has been around for how long? It's not that hard, or else I am grossly overestimating my ability to script a mechanic.

[RS-CreeD]

Not everything needs to be equal.

This is one of the banes of video games, for some strange reason people want a million options to all work the same. That doesnt mean you actually have an option that just means you have a different skin.

 

I LOVE that i have to actually put a bit work to get the Grakata working as well as the standard rifle. DE already adjusted the ammo drop system to the point where boxes aren't needed 99% of the time..... they dont really need to do that again for a handful of weapons. The double stat mods should further help these types of weapons if you are having this problem.

 

+1

[MangoMonkey]

Not everything needs to be equal.

This is one of the banes of video games, for some strange reason people want a million options to all work the same. That doesnt mean you actually have an option that just means you have a different skin.

 

I LOVE that i have to actually put a bit work to get the Grakata working as well as the standard rifle. DE already adjusted the ammo drop system to the point where boxes aren't needed 99% of the time..... they dont really need to do that again for a handful of weapons. The double stat mods should further help these types of weapons if you are having this problem.

You're wrong. Not your opinion. That's fair enough. But at no point at all will the Grakata perform as well as anything else. There's no point throwing anecdotes at me or assumptions, no matter how much work you put into it. Numbers don't lie, and the DPS, accuracy and ammunition conservation is so below-par in comparison to anything else that you will never, ever be able to make it measure up. Hard fact.

And yes. I'd like all play-styles to be relatively equal. That isn't to say that a Braton should be as good as a Braton Prime, but it should be able to compete with the Latron Prime to cater to and depending upon an individual's playstyle. Right now, while damage measures up, ammunition conservation means that one can sustain that damage while the other can't, with no trade-off for that issue. This is a solution to that.

[Drogra]

The obvious problem here is that not all guns are created equal, and issues arise when non-Assault Rifle weapons have small clip sizes. For example, the pistols would struggle entirely under this system at 75% (A single Viper would then only receive 10 rounds per pick-up). I'd suggest pistol drops to use a base clip-per-pickup system (100%), giving the Lex 6-rounds per grab and the Dual Vipers 28-round per pickup - this'd bring issues with a single Viper, but it would be the outlier case and would be a further reward for upgrading it to the Dual model.

Snipers bring another problem. Already, our ammunition drops are scarce enough. Truthfully, I haven't yet been able to work out how to fix this one. Giving ammunition on a 25-round per drop basis doesn't tie in with this revised system but is the only way I can think of to fix this issue. Any suggestions would be gratefully received.

 

My Dime-section Interjection:

 

Pistols:  150% clip per pickup.  The Bronko  has 2 shot clip, 4 for the dual, giving it currently ridiculous ammo efficiency, but only 2/4 shots pickup with 1 clip worth.  Give the single weapons that can be upgraded to dual weapons the clip restore and max ammo capacity of the dual weapons to make it a choice to up upgrade the weapon for more DPS vs lower ammo efficiency.

Snipers/Bows/Heavy Weapons:  Convert all to a "Special Weapons" ammo type, which drops 2 "Clips" worth of ammo (Heavy weapons include the Ogris, Acrid, Torid, Supra and Gorgon).  

[OrokinNoob]

I agree, Ogris...540 shots. Really? But there is also the scenario of players who like to play Solo or on smaller teams needing more ammo for their primary weapons, as longer missions, higher difficulty and more enemies play a role in ammo consumption.

 

I think more hybrid mods could satisfy a majority of players. But between ammo boxes and better damage mods, I don't really have a problem with the ammo drop system.

 

There are already some great Ammo/Reload+Dmg mods in the game. But I like this conversation keeps coming up. Keeps it on players minds, while DE tries out new things.

[Hayden11121]

I agree, Ogris...540 shots. Really? But there is also the scenario of players who like to play Solo or on smaller teams needing more ammo for their primary weapons, as longer missions, higher difficulty and more enemies play a role in ammo consumption.

 

I think more hybrid mods could satisfy a majority of players. But between ammo boxes and better damage mods, I don't really have a problem with the ammo drop system.

 

There are already some great Ammo/Reload+Dmg mods in the game. But I like this conversation keeps coming up. Keeps it on players minds, while DE tries out new things.

 

However using mod points for ammo makes the gun do less potential damage.

 

Why should I have to add a maxed out ammo size on my dual vipers worth about 200k total *BP's and separate Vipers* when my Bronco is just as effective with ammo for only 30k.

 

I think the grind to aqquire the weapon should equal the reward.

[Mak_Gohae]

However using mod points for ammo makes the gun do less potential damage.

 

Why should I have to add a maxed out ammo size on my dual vipers worth about 200k total *BP's and separate Vipers* when my Bronco is just as effective with ammo for only 30k.

 

I think the grind to aqquire the weapon should equal the reward.

 

You dont have to but if you dont you should know what you need to do when you do so.

 

The ammo, clip, reload mods are there for a reason, you dont have to add only damaging mods.

[WetAedeagus]

Use Twin Vipers = More pistol ammo drop

 

Use Lex = Less pistol ammo drop

 

etc.

[Whyan]

Not everything needs to be equal.

This is one of the banes of video games, for some strange reason people want a million options to all work the same. That doesnt mean you actually have an option that just means you have a different skin.

 

I LOVE that i have to actually put a bit work to get the Grakata working as well as the standard rifle. DE already adjusted the ammo drop system to the point where boxes aren't needed 99% of the time..... they dont really need to do that again for a handful of weapons. The double stat mods should further help these types of weapons if you are having this problem.

 

Actually, everything in this game should be equal in effectiveness but unique or different in how they operate or achieve that effectiveness.

 

In this game, most of the weapons aren't even unique at all and half of these weapons aren't even able to compete, or get outclassed by a weapon that does the same thing better.

This means that out of all the weapons we have only a handful of weapons are actually usable through the end game. It makes it quite boring and bland when all i see are the same Hek/Boltor/Ogris/Acrid/Kunai/Despair/Orthos combos in every mid-high level game.  

 

This game is needs variety more then anything since it is a PVE game, rather than turning into a grind-fest to get the same end-game weapons that everybody else has.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Whyan

[xveganrox]

I'd rather see increases to the damage dealing capabilities of the weapons with exceedingly poor ammo economies than just increasing ammo drops for them to make the guns all more similar.

[Aspari]

I've been told "well if we did this, there'd be no reason not to use an automatic weapon" whenever I make threads like these. I honestly believe that instead of increasing ammo drops all around based on clip size, we should buff the Scavenger mods to actually giving people more ammo per pick-up. Currently they're a bigger noob trap than the Machete.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Aspari

[Mak_Gohae]

Actually, everything in this game should be equal in effectiveness but unique or different in how they operate or achieve that effectiveness.

 

In this game, most of the weapons aren't even unique at all and half of these weapons aren't even able to compete, or get outclassed by a weapon that does the same thing better.

This means that out of all the weapons we have only a handful of weapons are actually usable through the end game. It makes it quite boring and bland when all i see are the same Hek/Boltor/Ogris/Acrid/Kunai/Despair/Orthos combos in every mid-high level game.  

 

This game is needs variety more then anything since it is a PVE game, rather than turning into a grind-fest to get the same end-game weapons that everybody else has.

 

Everything in this game does have equal effectiveness. The ammo doesnt make a weapon less effective it just means that use of it isnt as loose as other weapons.

 

And only a few weapons are seen late game because of posts like this. Instead of giving tips about how to use these things you go on to say how much they suck and since there are people who dont like to do work so they just repeat what they read somewhere.

[Aspari]

Everything in this game does have equal effectiveness. The ammo doesnt make a weapon less effective it just means that use of it isnt as loose as other weapons.

 

And only a few weapons are seen late game because of posts like this. Instead of giving tips about how to use these things you go on to say how much they suck and since there are people who dont like to do work so they just repeat what they read somewhere.

So what you're saying is there is some ancient Chinese secret to making the Grakata good?

[Mak_Gohae]

So what you're saying is there is some ancient Chinese secret to making the Grakata good?

 

The Great Tenno General Mak Tzu says...

 

"Do not make the weapon adjust to you, make yourself adjust to the weapon."

 

And this works for Warframe too. The easiest example is all the Loki feedback which consist of giving him damage and aoe stuns for everything. That's not Loki, Loki is what you got so learn to work with that.

[OrokinNoob]

However using mod points for ammo makes the gun do less potential damage.

 

Why should I have to add a maxed out ammo size on my dual vipers worth about 200k total *BP's and separate Vipers* when my Bronco is just as effective with ammo for only 30k.

 

I think the grind to aqquire the weapon should equal the reward.

Thats why I was suggesting the Ammo/Damage hybrid mods that recently dropped. In the end for me I don't use ammo mods period, I just Equip damage mods, which 95% of the time balance the ammo eaters in the game. The other 5% usually get a tweak or fix by DE to increase damage. A good example is the Sobek. Thing did weak damage and used ammo like it had plenty to waste, got a buff now with damage mods, low ammo is out of the question.

 

Same thing with DVs, added damage mods, they rarely run out of ammo, even during long missions for me because of their high modded DPS. Every weapon should have pros and cons thats what keeps versatility, but mods balance most weapons in the end.

[Thrymd00d]

The Great Tenno General Mak Tzu says...

 

"Do not make the weapon adjust to you, make yourself adjust to the weapon."

 

And this works for Warframe too. The easiest example is all the Loki feedback which consist of giving him damage and aoe stuns for everything. That's not Loki, Loki is what you got so learn to work with that.

Are you seriously disputing that grakata is not useful endgame? Hell even the Burston, which recently got buffed, is not gunna change a t3 defense game, an ogris, however, will. It's also like saying that Mag or Saryn is a useful frame endgame, they're not, they do poor damage, and have little or no utility (that actually helps). Some of the items in this game are not useful end-game. I'm not putting a lot of thought into this post about how to fix them, but you have a skewed perspective if you think all the weapons/items in this game are balanced.

 

Edit* yes I'm comparing a very expensive weapon to a not very expensive weapon, but there isn't a lot of middle ground between clan weapons and non-clan weapons; if the weapon isn't AP, or clan, then there's a better option somewhere else.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Thrymd00d