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Sniper Rework Idea Compendium


Bryntwulf
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All I can add to this is that use of the scope should be optional. You should be able to aim the rifle without the scope at the cost of not getting scope benefits for when things get too close for comfort. Perhaps reach this by zooming back a step further than the lowest scope zoom.

Edited by Mastercontrol98
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3 hours ago, letir said:

1) Punch-through mods can be added on any weapon, and any other weapon (except bows) are much more potent in other situations, thanks to bigger mags, faster reloading, better ROF, ect  In fact, some other weapons also have inhate punch-through.

Sniper rifles aren't used because they are weak, unwieldy and useless in most situations.

2) Players.

3) There is plenty of weapons which can clean room in one shot. Some of them dosen't even require skill to use.

Why should players spend time on inferior weapons?

4) AR, shotguns, launchers and secondaries are preferable because they are stronger and more useful in Warframe. Snipers are weak and have no use, with exception for some exotic builds.

And the experience that i have, as well as other people i play with completely contradict your statements. So...... agree to disagree? There is validity to what im saying, otherwise i wouldnt have been using snipers for over 1000 hours because it wouldnt have been worth my time either.

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15 hours ago, Faulcun said:

And the experience that i have, as well as other people i play with completely contradict your statements. So...... agree to disagree? There is validity to what im saying, otherwise i wouldnt have been using snipers for over 1000 hours because it wouldnt have been worth my time either.

I don't know, what your experience saying you, because nobody in Warframe using snipers. Look at Sortie or any other high-level activity, and you will see how much players use sniper rifles as actual weapons. That's right, about 1/100.

Snipers are unwieldy and cannot compete with end-game weapons in DPS. There is no reason to bring one into fight. There is plenty of weapons which can deal with hordes more effectivly, and some weapons can easely beat snipers in one-shot capability, the only selling point of this type of weapons.

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3 hours ago, letir said:

I don't know, what your experience saying you, because nobody in Warframe using snipers. Look at Sortie or any other high-level activity, and you will see how much players use sniper rifles as actual weapons. That's right, about 1/100.

Snipers are unwieldy and cannot compete with end-game weapons in DPS. There is no reason to bring one into fight. There is plenty of weapons which can deal with hordes more effectivly, and some weapons can easely beat snipers in one-shot capability, the only selling point of this type of weapons.

Then a sortie 3 defense - sniper only - should be impossible to complete... and yet we do it without any issues without cheesing it with mass power spam.

Your statements are completely false. The lanka can easily compete with a tigris prime. Depending on different builds on either weapon, a lanka can exceed a tigris prime in raw damage on base 3x zoom, after the first shot creating 1.5x damage.... any shot after that depending on conditions, multishot, and zoom level, a lanka can even match or exceed the tigris prime's burst dps at well over 100k dps. If you would prefer a different example, we can compare the vulkar to the strun.

Of course other weapons are more popular than snipers. Sniper actually require some effort and skill. That doesnt mean they dont have a place in the game, or are less effective, or arent viable. Thats completely up to the player using it.

Players in this community also have this notion that just because they cant do something automatically means that nobody else can either. You guys need to open your minds a little. 

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9 hours ago, Faulcun said:

1) Then a sortie 3 defense - sniper only - should be impossible to complete... and yet we do it without any issues without cheesing it with mass power spam.

2) Your statements are completely false. The lanka can easily compete with a tigris prime. Depending on different builds on either weapon, a lanka can exceed a tigris prime in raw damage on base 3x zoom, after the first shot creating 1.5x damage.... any shot after that depending on conditions, multishot, and zoom level, a lanka can even match or exceed the tigris prime's burst dps at well over 100k dps. If you would prefer a different example, we can compare the vulkar to the strun.

3) Of course other weapons are more popular than snipers. Sniper actually require some effort and skill. That doesnt mean they dont have a place in the game, or are less effective, or arent viable. Thats completely up to the player using it.

4) Players in this community also have this notion that just because they cant do something automatically means that nobody else can either. You guys need to open your minds a little. 

1) I never told you about "impossible" thing. There is nothing impossible in Warframe with cheesing and right loadout.

2) I'm so glad that you finaly start to make stuff up. so I can show you real facts.

This is Tigris Prime in status build: http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Tigris_Prime/t_30_22200000_178-0-5-190-3-5-191-4-3-264-5-3-330-6-3-357-7-3-482-1-10-546-2-5_178-8-482-7-546-6-190-9-191-7-264-7-330-7-357-7/en/2-0-96

It hit like a truck and proc every time, making short work of any enemy. Not many things can survive even one shot from this bad boy.

And here is your contentender, Lanka: http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Lanka/t_30_22220034_132-2-5-133-5-5-137-0-10-140-3-5-141-4-5-159-1-5-405-6-5-784-7-10_137-7-159-5-132-8-140-5-141-11-133-11-405-5-784-8/en/2-0-20

Does it look pale in comparsion? Yeah, it is. I even used maximum zoom and damage build without status, and it still cannot even scratch boots of mighty T. Prime. I'm not even telling you about difficulties with 12x magnitude in small rooms, just pure numbers.

3) Lol, nope. Not even close.

Soma Prime/Boltor Prime can easely switch from spray-n-pray to focused fire and get job done.

Arca Plasmor can fry entire rooms with huge AOE pellet, and dosen't have any risks or stupid "balancing disadvanatges"

Lenz have some drawbacks, but it worth the cost.

 

Snipers? They can compete with Strun... and I will take Strun anyway - it dosen't have scope sway nor unreliable multishot and crit.

4) Players in this community also tend to make some eltitst speaches to prove their point.

Edited by letir
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10 hours ago, letir said:

1) I never told you about "impossible" thing. There is nothing impossible in Warframe with cheesing and right loadout.

2) I'm so glad that you finaly start to make stuff up. so I can show you real facts.

This is Tigris Prime in status build: http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Tigris_Prime/t_30_22200000_178-0-5-190-3-5-191-4-3-264-5-3-330-6-3-357-7-3-482-1-10-546-2-5_178-8-482-7-546-6-190-9-191-7-264-7-330-7-357-7/en/2-0-96

It hit like a truck and proc every time, making short work of any enemy. Not many things can survive even one shot from this bad boy.

And here is your contentender, Lanka: http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Lanka/t_30_22220034_132-2-5-133-5-5-137-0-10-140-3-5-141-4-5-159-1-5-405-6-5-784-7-10_137-7-159-5-132-8-140-5-141-11-133-11-405-5-784-8/en/2-0-20

Does it look pale in comparsion? Yeah, it is. I even used maximum zoom and damage build without status, and it still cannot even scratch boots of mighty T. Prime. I'm not even telling you about difficulties with 12x magnitude in small rooms, just pure numbers.

3) Lol, nope. Not even close.

Soma Prime/Boltor Prime can easely switch from spray-n-pray to focused fire and get job done.

Arca Plasmor can fry entire rooms with huge AOE pellet, and dosen't have any risks or stupid "balancing disadvanatges"

Lenz have some drawbacks, but it worth the cost.

 

Snipers? They can compete with Strun... and I will take Strun anyway - it dosen't have scope sway nor unreliable multishot and crit.

4) Players in this community also tend to make some eltitst speaches to prove their point.

LOL and im glad you took it there. Because its not that im making things up.... its that you dont know what you are talking about. Lets explore, shall we?

First of all, I prefer to use speed trigger, but the numbers are similar anyways, so for the sake of your own argument, we'll use your builds.

Couple things out of the way so everybody can follow along here. lets establish the numbers from your build for T.Prime.

T.Prime

45566.664 total damage
91133.328 burst dps
35529.563 sustained dps
 
Now lets compare with your lanka build. First make sure you have it set to charged shot (the option just left of "edit riven mod" directly on top of all the stats). I think you'll notice  a big difference. Second, nobody is hip firing, so lets go ahead and set on base 3x zoom.
 
Lanka
 
42224.801 total damage
53516.858 burst dps
42694.440 sustained dps

Oh my..... look at that. Almost the exact same damage, and it exceeds your T.Prime in sustained DPS. But wait.... theres more! Because seperate hits count for each multishot, after 2 hits, you are already at 1.5x damage from the combo. If you hit two enemies in one shot, you are already at 1.5x on the first hit. Heres where your numbers end up now, STILL on 3x zoom

63337.201 total damage
80275.286 burst dps
64041.659 sustained dps
 
Hm, looks like we've completely exceeded the damage of your T.Prime, not by a little.... but by 18,000 damage, we've almost matched burst dps, and we've almost DOUBLED sustained dps. If you are playing smart, and utilizing punchtrough and hitting multiple enemies, you can achieve 2x damage in just a few more shots. Lets look at those numbers:
 
84449.597 total damage
107033.710 burst dps
85388.875 sustained dps

Now we're just making the T.Prime look silly..... But I know what you are thinking.... what if the player doesnt have the skill to reach 2x multiplier? Thats cool... lets look at the stats after two shots reaching 1.5x damage on 12x zoom

80315.898 total damage
101794.548 burst dps
81209.199 sustained dps
 
Im just making fun of your T.Prime at this point. Either weapon is enough for stupid high level enemies.... The difference is, I can take every ounce of my damage and put it straight into a headshot at any distance making the damage output simply ridiculous. There is not a lot in this game that wont die in one shot with that weapon.... and we arent even discussing rivens here either.
 
I said it once already, and ill say it again. Snipers are a high risk, high reward playstyle. As you can see, there are so many combinations during combat to make wicked damage, its hard NOT to deal damage... unless you hip fire and toss your combo away. Even if you only put straight damage mods on your T.Prime, you'll still be trying to catch up with an experienced lanka player.
 
By the way, thank you for invalidating everything you've said thus far.
Edited by Faulcun
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Why do we always feel the need to overcomplicate things? We don't need anymore mods. You know what happens when we ask for those, we get friggin' bandaids like Harkonar Scope or Depleted Reload.

Revert accuracy changes, give them a little bit more crit chance so their TTK is consistent (we have auto rifles that have higher crit chance than most snipers ffs), give them innate punchthrough, done. 

IMO, Ferrox and Opticor are basically snipers done right. Hitscan, good reload speed, good mag size, good enough crit chance, good damage, no unecessary scope, etc.

 

And as always there's plenty of arguments so I'll just try and address some of them :

1. I have no problem with hipfire/scope sway!

Yeah, and that mechanic also has no business existing either so it won't hurt you or anyone if that were removed right? Oh it's "logical" and "realistic" you say! Well here's the thing, I can hipfire a shotgun just fine, I can fire an LMG at full spool up, in mid-air, and have all my bullets land where I want them to be. I can hold a rocket launcher or even a BFG just fine while aiming down sight and yet the moment I touch snipers I have friggin' Parkinson's. That's right, the moment the bio-mechanical space zombie robot holds a gun with slightly longer barrel and a scope it has the physical capabilities of an 80 year old man. 

Point is, why do a weapon category that needs accuracy the most have to have these shoddy mechanics while others don't? We want consistency. Either everything has sway/hipfire inaccuracy or they don't. Simple as that. It doesn't add anything to snipers. It doesn't add "challenge" or """skill floor""", it's just annoying.

2. I do just fine with snipers.

Well that's good for you my man! But that doesn't mean they don't deserve changes, or that your damage numbers matter because they don't. This is also addressing the people that says "Snipers don't do damage" because that's clearly false, they have always dealt huge numbers of damage. They need to headshot and crit, that's what snipers are for. The problem with snipers are their badly implemented mechanics that were added with the rework.

Combo dropping as soon as you missed instead of decaying? Certain weapons being unable to even use the combo because of their reload speed (Rubico) without the need of a bandaid mod (Harkonar Scope)? Your bullets outright missing even while scoped because of a bug? All of those are the actual problem with snipers. Stat-wise the only thing snipers need are punchthrough and some more crit chance. And I'm not asking for 50% base crit chance and turn them to hitscan bows here, 35% is enough. 87.5% with Point Strike, with the option of going past 100% with Argon Scope/Rivens sounds pretty fair to me.

 

And please, don't start comparing numbers on warframe builder either, paper DPS means absolutely jack when we're talking about weapon mechanics. You know how people just dump Vile Acceleration on anything, bumping up the damage so they can get their precious "Most popular weapon build" title on wfbuilder? That kinda thing? 

That Lanka vs. Tigris P is just silly. They're 2 different weapons that takes advantage of different mechanics. I mean come on, Lanka not having charged attack or scope bonuses ticked? And again, paper dps means jack, status Tigris P is good because of the slash procs and 100% proc rate. You try popping a level 120 Napalm with 2 Riven-less Lanka shots and without the help of Warframe abilities and I'll gift you a potato of your choice right here and now.

Edited by TotallyLagging
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@TotallyLagging

You and I are relatively on the same page. I agree 100% that DPS means nothing. I believe in the minimum amount required to get the job done. It doesnt matter if you kill an enemy with 1000 damage, or 10000000 damage. They dont get extra dead from more damage, which really opens the door to a multitude of other weapons that people usually ignore.

As far as scope sway is concerned, im simply saying that I can understand them adding something to mitigate the damage potential of some of these weapons. However, I do believe that every weapon has sway. I just think we dont see it because we cannot zoom like we can with the snipers. The the further you zoom in, the more apparent it is. Or maybe not. Its neither here nor there. I also dont have a problem with it being removed if thats what they want to do. Your other points are fine.

The bottom line, and my biggest issue, is if we're going to make changes, it needs to be because of better reasons than what are being presented. Take your suggestions for example.... remove sway, buff crit chance and punchthrough. None of those changes have any effect on the playstyle required to wield those weapons. What people want to do is somehow turn these weapons into something spray and prey or aoe so that they dont have to use as much effort to use them. Im simply against those types of changes.

Like sway again for example. These rifles didnt used to have them, like you said. Snipers still had the same lack of use. With sway, or without, had no effect on their popularity.

edit: btw, do you have a build that 2 shots a 120 bombard under your conditions? Id be interested in checking that out.

Edited by Faulcun
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36 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

@TotallyLagging

You and I are relatively on the same page. I agree 100% that DPS means nothing. I believe in the minimum amount required to get the job done. It doesnt matter if you kill an enemy with 1000 damage, or 10000000 damage. They dont get extra dead from more damage, which really opens the door to a multitude of other weapons that people usually ignore.

As far as scope sway is concerned, im simply saying that I can understand them adding something to mitigate the damage potential of some of these weapons. However, I do believe that every weapon has sway. I just think we dont see it because we cannot zoom like we can with the snipers. The the further you zoom in, the more apparent it is. Or maybe not. Its neither here nor there. I also dont have a problem with it being removed if thats what they want to do. Your other points are fine.

The bottom line, and my biggest issue, is if we're going to make changes, it needs to be because of better reasons than what are being presented. Take your suggestions for example.... remove sway, buff crit chance and punchthrough. None of those changes have any effect on the playstyle required to wield those weapons. What people want to do is somehow turn these weapons into something spray and prey or aoe so that they dont have to use as much effort to use them. Im simply against those types of changes.

Like sway again for example. These rifles didnt used to have them, like you said. Snipers still had the same lack of use. With sway, or without, had no effect on their popularity.

edit: btw, do you have a build that 2 shots a 120 bombard under your conditions? Id be interested in checking that out.

The level 120 thing was just emhasizing on the paper dps comparison.

Lanka on full zoom may have better numbers than Tigris P but Tigris could actually 2-shot with a rad + viral build on headshot. Wfbuilder doesn't take the multiple slash DoT and halved enemy HP into account.

And I agree, changing the sniping playstyle too much would be something that I'm against. It's partly why I don't like the "Give snipers Acid Shells/Vulcan Blitz" suggestions even though it would actually fix snipers being impractical. Although I don't see such things being suggested on the original post.

 

Also apologies if I offended anyone, snipers have been something that I've been complaining for a long time since their rework and frankly I'm just tired of hearing the same arguments from both sides.

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3 hours ago, TotallyLagging said:

Why do we always feel the need to overcomplicate things? We don't need anymore mods. You know what happens when we ask for those, we get friggin' bandaids like Harkonar Scope or Depleted Reload.

Revert accuracy changes, give them a little bit more crit chance so their TTK is consistent (we have auto rifles that have higher crit chance than most snipers ffs), give them innate punchthrough, done. 

IMO, Ferrox and Opticor are basically snipers done right. Hitscan, good reload speed, good mag size, good enough crit chance, good damage, no unecessary scope, etc.

 

And as always there's plenty of arguments so I'll just try and address some of them :

1. I have no problem with hipfire/scope sway!

Yeah, and that mechanic also has no business existing either so it won't hurt you or anyone if that were removed right? Oh it's "logical" and "realistic" you say! Well here's the thing, I can hipfire a shotgun just fine, I can fire an LMG at full spool up, in mid-air, and have all my bullets land where I want them to be. I can hold a rocket launcher or even a BFG just fine while aiming down sight and yet the moment I touch snipers I have friggin' Parkinson's. That's right, the moment the bio-mechanical space zombie robot holds a gun with slightly longer barrel and a scope it has the physical capabilities of an 80 year old man. 

Point is, why do a weapon category that needs accuracy the most have to have these shoddy mechanics while others don't? We want consistency. Either everything has sway/hipfire inaccuracy or they don't. Simple as that. It doesn't add anything to snipers. It doesn't add "challenge" or """skill floor""", it's just annoying.

2. I do just fine with snipers.

Well that's good for you my man! But that doesn't mean they don't deserve changes, or that your damage numbers matter because they don't. This is also addressing the people that says "Snipers don't do damage" because that's clearly false, they have always dealt huge numbers of damage. They need to headshot and crit, that's what snipers are for. The problem with snipers are their badly implemented mechanics that were added with the rework.

Combo dropping as soon as you missed instead of decaying? Certain weapons being unable to even use the combo because of their reload speed (Rubico) without the need of a bandaid mod (Harkonar Scope)? Your bullets outright missing even while scoped because of a bug? All of those are the actual problem with snipers. Stat-wise the only thing snipers need are punchthrough and some more crit chance. And I'm not asking for 50% base crit chance and turn them to hitscan bows here, 35% is enough. 87.5% with Point Strike, with the option of going past 100% with Argon Scope/Rivens sounds pretty fair to me.

 

And please, don't start comparing numbers on warframe builder either, paper DPS means absolutely jack when we're talking about weapon mechanics. You know how people just dump Vile Acceleration on anything, bumping up the damage so they can get their precious "Most popular weapon build" title on wfbuilder? That kinda thing? 

That Lanka vs. Tigris P is just silly. They're 2 different weapons that takes advantage of different mechanics. I mean come on, Lanka not having charged attack or scope bonuses ticked? And again, paper dps means jack, status Tigris P is good because of the slash procs and 100% proc rate. You try popping a level 120 Napalm with 2 Riven-less Lanka shots and without the help of Warframe abilities and I'll gift you a potato of your choice right here and now.

This guy, have a +1

I'm happy someone else brought up consistency, it's IMO one of the biggest negative to them (more so than the hip-fire or scope sway to me)

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4 hours ago, Faulcun said:
 
Im just making fun of your T.Prime at this point. Either weapon is enough for stupid high level enemies.... The difference is, I can take every ounce of my damage and put it straight into a headshot at any distance making the damage output simply ridiculous. There is not a lot in this game that wont die in one shot with that weapon.... and we arent even discussing rivens here either.
 
I said it once already, and ill say it again. Snipers are a high risk, high reward playstyle. As you can see, there are so many combinations during combat to make wicked damage, its hard NOT to deal damage... unless you hip fire and toss your combo away. Even if you only put straight damage mods on your T.Prime, you'll still be trying to catch up with an experienced lanka player.
 
By the way, thank you for invalidating everything you've said thus far.

You know what...

If you clearly can hit any target with non-hitscan projectile, with permanent plastered 12x zoom in close combat, without misses, while avoiding enemy fire and analyzing sutuation (with 12x zoom), then yes - glorious sniper rifles are best weapon in the game, ever.

 

We, simple peasants, prefer easer weapons to sustain our inferior skills and clear the room in one shot.

Edited by letir
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3 hours ago, letir said:

You know what...

If you clearly can hit any target with non-hitscan projectile, with permanent plastered 12x zoom in close combat, without misses, while avoiding enemy fire and analyzing sutuation (with 12x zoom), then yes - glorious sniper rifles are best weapon in the game, ever.

 

We, simple peasants, prefer easer weapons to sustain our inferior skills and clear the room in one shot.

No, you are completely missing the point still. The lanka already has similar damage output as the T.Prime with 3x zoom and no combo. So take my word, when I say that both weapons will one shot on sortie 3 without 12x zoom.

But thats ONE mission....  what level is the rest of the game at? 45 max?

How much damage do you think is needed to take down a lvl 45? Maybe we arent on pluto or in the void..... what about a level 30? or 20? It keeps getting easier from here, bro.

I assure you, none of the snipers struggle to deal with lvl 40 content, it sure as hell doesnt require 12x zoom, doesnt even matter if you miss at this level, and you should ALWAYS be trying to avoid enemy fire and analyzing the situation regardless of what weapon you are using.

Snipers are viable on any mission in the game if you take the time to learn the playstyle. If you choose not to do that, thats perfectly fine, just dont come into a thread like this and make suggestions of changes about something you've chosen to ignore.

Thats how de ends up making bad changes.

Edited by Faulcun
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5 hours ago, Faulcun said:

Snipers are viable on any mission in the game if you take the time to learn the playstyle. If you choose not to do that, thats perfectly fine, just dont come into a thread like this and make suggestions of changes about something you've chosen to ignore.

Thats how de ends up making bad changes.

Of course they are perfectly viable and suited for Warframe by design, this is why weapons like Tonkor or Soma are unused joke items, and everybody and their mothers still using glorious Snipertron for every mission.

Like, there is usualy hordes of trash enemies - single-shot weapons with small clip and long reload are just perfect against them.

Or chaotic missions with small rooms, when enemies coming from all sides, so any player can show sick aiming skills with extremly useful 12x scopes.

And there is also pretty big numbers of Nullifiers - their shield of nope clearly favoring slow-firing weapons. Or Ancient Healers, which aura of protection aren't suited to work against high-damage weapons.

We shouldn't make rash design decisions here, or else snipers can actually become useful for something. It will be very bad change, indeed.

 

Today's Sortie second mission (Corpus Survival) was perfect example of typical gameplay. Chaotic halls of Lua, 20-30 enemies from all directions, Nullfiers, Ratels and Sapping Ospreys everywhere, with occasional Tech's in-between. Perfect targets for AOE, fast-firing weapons and melee sliding.

What exactly sniper supposed to achieve in this situation?

Kill 6 enemies, reload and meet 30+ of reinforcements? Aim Nullifier's drones while someone with Soma simply chew through shields? Take down one Tech with few headshots when Ash taking them non-stop with backstabbing teleport?

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1 hour ago, letir said:

Of course they are perfectly viable and suited for Warframe by design, this is why weapons like Tonkor or Soma are unused joke items, and everybody and their mothers still using glorious Snipertron for every mission.

Like, there is usualy hordes of trash enemies - single-shot weapons with small clip and long reload are just perfect against them.

Or chaotic missions with small rooms, when enemies coming from all sides, so any player can show sick aiming skills with extremly useful 12x scopes.

And there is also pretty big numbers of Nullifiers - their shield of nope clearly favoring slow-firing weapons. Or Ancient Healers, which aura of protection aren't suited to work against high-damage weapons.

We shouldn't make rash design decisions here, or else snipers can actually become useful for something. It will be very bad change, indeed.

 

Today's Sortie second mission (Corpus Survival) was perfect example of typical gameplay. Chaotic halls of Lua, 20-30 enemies from all directions, Nullfiers, Ratels and Sapping Ospreys everywhere, with occasional Tech's in-between. Perfect targets for AOE, fast-firing weapons and melee sliding.

What exactly sniper supposed to achieve in this situation?

Kill 6 enemies, reload and meet 30+ of reinforcements? Aim Nullifier's drones while someone with Soma simply chew through shields? Take down one Tech with few headshots when Ash taking them non-stop with backstabbing teleport?

Go ahead and over exaggerate more. We've already clearly established you have no idea what you are talking about anyways.

We would need to turn all the snipers into a soma to make you happy... I dont even know why im still discussing this with you.

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Please, stop arguing. I think both of you are getting a little too aggressive. Calm disagreements leading to friendly discussion is wonderful, but fighting will solve nothing. 

Edited by KyoBladezen
Turns out that the ability to delete threads was removed a while back.
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Okay, let me try...

First off: What's the goal? Snipers are precision weapons built for taking down high-value targets over long distances. They are predominantly single-target weapons with low firerate and longer-than-average reload. So what needs to change?

Well, Snipers are currently very generic and not uniquely suited to their main goal. They do not break away from the general playstyle to a sufficient extent to warrant their slow firerate and reload. They're not well-equipped to take down high-value targets. Additionally, long range is hardly utilisable, as Warframe's tilesets are too cramped. More concretely, I suggest the following...

  1. The scope sway has to go, as it adds an unfair hindrance to snipers that other precision-oriented weapons (Opticor, Daikyu, Euphona Prime, etc.) do not suffer.
  2. Shot combos have to be removed. This is antithetical to Sniper gameplay, and allocating power here drags the sniper from its own unique gameplay, down into the masses, where they cannot excel.
  3. Add a 'scope 0' to all snipers, a scope level below the current lowest, and one that is closer to the basic level of zoom on other weapons. This would allow precision aiming at closer range and improve their versatility.
  4. Headshot Assist. Be it as a sniper-unique mod or just something that is included with all sniper rifles, but make enemy 'Heads' -light up- while zoomed in. This makes it much easier to discern where you have to shoot to get a headshot, as for some creatures, the 'head' isn't obvious, or hard to spot.
  5. Assassin Assist. Have high value targets like Eximi, Ancients, Nullifiers also get special marking on the scope. This makes it easier for players to scope out high value targets for extermination.
  6. Assassination capability boost. Specifically, have sniper rifles be able to punch through nullifier bubbles and ignore an eximus' resistance auras. This would make them -the- weapon of choice for mowing these critical targets down.
  7. Headshot benefits. Bonus base crit chance for headshots seems like a good call, allowing headshots to easily become guaranteed crits, or even orange/redcrits.

These are my suggestions for setting the Sniper rifles apart as their own unique class, oriented towards high precision, tactical play, with powerful single-target burst.

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4 hours ago, Colyeses said:
  1. Headshot Assist. Be it as a sniper-unique mod or just something that is included with all sniper rifles, but make enemy 'Heads' -light up- while zoomed in. This makes it much easier to discern where you have to shoot to get a headshot, as for some creatures, the 'head' isn't obvious, or hard to spot.

 

This would be great but it could also be a Simulacrum feature, no need to use up mod slots once you know the weird head hitboxes.

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10 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Okay, let me try...

First off: What's the goal? Snipers are precision weapons built for taking down high-value targets over long distances. They are predominantly single-target weapons with low firerate and longer-than-average reload. So what needs to change?

Well, Snipers are currently very generic and not uniquely suited to their main goal. They do not break away from the general playstyle to a sufficient extent to warrant their slow firerate and reload. They're not well-equipped to take down high-value targets. Additionally, long range is hardly utilisable, as Warframe's tilesets are too cramped. More concretely, I suggest the following...

  1. The scope sway has to go, as it adds an unfair hindrance to snipers that other precision-oriented weapons (Opticor, Daikyu, Euphona Prime, etc.) do not suffer.
  2. Shot combos have to be removed. This is antithetical to Sniper gameplay, and allocating power here drags the sniper from its own unique gameplay, down into the masses, where they cannot excel.
  3. Add a 'scope 0' to all snipers, a scope level below the current lowest, and one that is closer to the basic level of zoom on other weapons. This would allow precision aiming at closer range and improve their versatility.
  4. Headshot Assist. Be it as a sniper-unique mod or just something that is included with all sniper rifles, but make enemy 'Heads' -light up- while zoomed in. This makes it much easier to discern where you have to shoot to get a headshot, as for some creatures, the 'head' isn't obvious, or hard to spot.
  5. Assassin Assist. Have high value targets like Eximi, Ancients, Nullifiers also get special marking on the scope. This makes it easier for players to scope out high value targets for extermination.
  6. Assassination capability boost. Specifically, have sniper rifles be able to punch through nullifier bubbles and ignore an eximus' resistance auras. This would make them -the- weapon of choice for mowing these critical targets down.
  7. Headshot benefits. Bonus base crit chance for headshots seems like a good call, allowing headshots to easily become guaranteed crits, or even orange/redcrits.

These are my suggestions for setting the Sniper rifles apart as their own unique class, oriented towards high precision, tactical play, with powerful single-target burst.

1 Yes

2 The current iteration sure, but a fast paced sniper combo can exist ( I look to Critical Ascension from bl2 as reference)

3 Sure I guess

4 As long as a player can disable it, if they aren't a fan of it.

5 Same as 4

6 Interesting idea, questioning if that'll make them a bit too strong.

7 Nah, they need a base increase more than anything to me, a higher than average weak spot multiplier could be added instead.

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9 hours ago, helghastgunner said:

1 Yes

2 The current iteration sure, but a fast paced sniper combo can exist ( I look to Critical Ascension from bl2 as reference)

3 Sure I guess

4 As long as a player can disable it, if they aren't a fan of it.

5 Same as 4

6 Interesting idea, questioning if that'll make them a bit too strong.

7 Nah, they need a base increase more than anything to me, a higher than average weak spot multiplier could be added instead.

Good point, the headshot/primary target assist should be customisable.

I'd rather the headshot benefits synergise with individual snipers than having them give flat damage bonuses, as the former allows for more build variety.

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On ‎26‎-‎9‎-‎2017 at 1:06 AM, Faulcun said:

Go ahead and over exaggerate more. We've already clearly established you have no idea what you are talking about anyways.

We would need to turn all the snipers into a soma to make you happy... I dont even know why im still discussing this with you.

There's no need to turn snipers into assault rifles. They just need stronger, more defined benefits to offset the fact that every single aspect of Warframe is built up to be anti-sniper: Short range, large quantities of weak enemies as opposed to small quantities of strong enemies, Nullifier bubbles having object health...

Low firerate, high precision weapons are highly disadvantaged and snipers are the pinnacle of that, so they're no exception. Sure, a sniper can oneshot a level 100 eximus. But so can the Plasmor, or the Lenz, or the Jat Kusar, except all three of those are capable of wiping out five or more additional enemies along with that. And the rapidfire weapons that don't take them down in a single shot will still burn them to the ground in about .2 seconds, and those guys have no trouble decimating Nullifier bubbles.

Snipers -are- garbage at the moment, comparatively. They can function, but they are the least favoured weapon class in the game because they have no applicable strengths. Their single target damage does not exceed the damage of other weapons, and their long range capabilities cannot be used in about 90% of Warframe's tilesets because those tiles are too small.

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3 hours ago, Colyeses said:

There's no need to turn snipers into assault rifles. They just need stronger, more defined benefits to offset the fact that every single aspect of Warframe is built up to be anti-sniper: Short range, large quantities of weak enemies as opposed to small quantities of strong enemies, Nullifier bubbles having object health...

Low firerate, high precision weapons are highly disadvantaged and snipers are the pinnacle of that, so they're no exception. Sure, a sniper can oneshot a level 100 eximus. But so can the Plasmor, or the Lenz, or the Jat Kusar, except all three of those are capable of wiping out five or more additional enemies along with that. And the rapidfire weapons that don't take them down in a single shot will still burn them to the ground in about .2 seconds, and those guys have no trouble decimating Nullifier bubbles.

Snipers -are- garbage at the moment, comparatively. They can function, but they are the least favoured weapon class in the game because they have no applicable strengths. Their single target damage does not exceed the damage of other weapons, and their long range capabilities cannot be used in about 90% of Warframe's tilesets because those tiles are too small.

I simply disagree. The only argument im hearing is that other weapons are easier to use, and can take down multiple enemies in less effort due to spray and pray, or aoe. So what exactly are you asking for? Do you want snipers to be spray and pray? Do you want them to have aoe? In fact... I dont think ive seen a single suggestion made here yet to address its current playstyle that doesnt turn a sniper into some kind of simulor/opticor/soma variant.

The ambulas sortie last night is a perfect example. I ended up having to carry every single team I played with through that mission BECAUSE i brought a sniper. In fact, one group had one of the targets backed up the side of the mountain because they werent dealing enough damage to take it down and hack it. Not only was i able to guard my own target, I was able to target the battery packs, and then the leg joints on the other target and take it down in 2-4 shots allowing them to hack it...... all from the main platform where all the mess is.

But im not gonna sit here and tell stories. It doesnt really matter. Snipers are not garbage, will ALWAYS be the least favored weapon class unless you make them spray and pray or aoe, Some of them DO have single target damage that DOES exceed the damage of other weapons, and they CAN be utilized in tight closed spaces with punchthrough.

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32 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

I simply disagree. The only argument im hearing is that other weapons are easier to use, and can take down multiple enemies in less effort due to spray and pray, or aoe. So what exactly are you asking for? Do you want snipers to be spray and pray? Do you want them to have aoe? In fact... I dont think ive seen a single suggestion made here yet to address its current playstyle that doesnt turn a sniper into some kind of simulor/opticor/soma variant.

The ambulas sortie last night is a perfect example. I ended up having to carry every single team I played with through that mission BECAUSE i brought a sniper. In fact, one group had one of the targets backed up the side of the mountain because they werent dealing enough damage to take it down and hack it. Not only was i able to guard my own target, I was able to target the battery packs, and then the leg joints on the other target and take it down in 2-4 shots allowing them to hack it...... all from the main platform where all the mess is.

But im not gonna sit here and tell stories. It doesnt really matter. Snipers are not garbage, will ALWAYS be the least favored weapon class unless you make them spray and pray or aoe, Some of them DO have single target damage that DOES exceed the damage of other weapons, and they CAN be utilized in tight closed spaces with punchthrough.

Then you should read the topic more closely because I suggested methods in which sniper rifle's precision oriented, single target value can be emphasised to give it its own role and playstyle. And none of it's to do with spray and pray or AoE.

Everything a sniper does, there's a whole host of weapons that do it better. Snipers thus need their own talents. And no, long range is not a boon when 90% of Warframe's tilesets are too small.

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2 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Then you should read the topic more closely because I suggested methods in which sniper rifle's precision oriented, single target value can be emphasised to give it its own role and playstyle. And none of it's to do with spray and pray or AoE.

Everything a sniper does, there's a whole host of weapons that do it better. Snipers thus need their own talents. And no, long range is not a boon when 90% of Warframe's tilesets are too small.

Ok then lets go over it.... because nothing you suggested is going to make snipers any more popular among the masses.

On 9/26/2017 at 9:38 AM, Colyeses said:

The scope sway has to go, as it adds an unfair hindrance to snipers that other precision-oriented weapons (Opticor, Daikyu, Euphona Prime, etc.) do not suffer.

I dont mind if it stays or goes.... however snipers were unpopular before sway was added, so there is no reason to believe they will all of a sudden become super popular if/when it is removed.

On 9/26/2017 at 9:38 AM, Colyeses said:

Shot combos have to be removed. This is antithetical to Sniper gameplay, and allocating power here drags the sniper from its own unique gameplay, down into the masses, where they cannot excel.

Again, snipers were not popular before this was added, and no reason to believe they will become popular if its taken away. In fact, this buff was added to encourage people to try to use it in a wider range of areas because if you are at least consistent and hitting enemies, your damage increases allowing you to potentially kill more enemies with body shots rather than having to focus on headshots to get the kill. I feel like this feature helps turn snipers into more of a railgun style play because you can focus more on larger mass body shots and increase your damage output in the process.

On 9/26/2017 at 9:38 AM, Colyeses said:

Add a 'scope 0' to all snipers, a scope level below the current lowest, and one that is closer to the basic level of zoom on other weapons. This would allow precision aiming at closer range and improve their versatility.

This is a contradiction to your last suggestion, and in effect brings the sniper into the same areas as above due to its railgun style play at this point. I dont think the change makes any significant difference.

 

On 9/26/2017 at 9:38 AM, Colyeses said:

Headshot Assist. Be it as a sniper-unique mod or just something that is included with all sniper rifles, but make enemy 'Heads' -light up- while zoomed in. This makes it much easier to discern where you have to shoot to get a headshot, as for some creatures, the 'head' isn't obvious, or hard to spot.

Neat idea.... but as somebody else suggested already... anybody whos been playing for a while should know where to headshot or where weak points are on an enemy. I suppose this would help educate new players though. Either way, I dont think this is going to draw masses of players to snipers because the argument is.... why shouldnt i just use a plasmor or lenz and roflstomp through the room instead? Much easier, and I dont have to worry about headshots.

On 9/26/2017 at 9:38 AM, Colyeses said:

Assassin Assist. Have high value targets like Eximi, Ancients, Nullifiers also get special marking on the scope. This makes it easier for players to scope out high value targets for extermination.

Same gimmick as above. Its neat.... but ultimately useless and no reason to use a sniper because of this feature over a plasmor.

On 9/26/2017 at 9:38 AM, Colyeses said:

Assassination capability boost. Specifically, have sniper rifles be able to punch through nullifier bubbles and ignore an eximus' resistance auras. This would make them -the- weapon of choice for mowing these critical targets down.

MAYBE.... this suggestion would increase sniper use. Bubbles can already be taken down in one shot anyways..... but that means somebody actually has to aim. If you take away that effort, and just shoot through the bubble.... then that might draw some people to use them.

On 9/26/2017 at 9:38 AM, Colyeses said:

Headshot benefits. Bonus base crit chance for headshots seems like a good call, allowing headshots to easily become guaranteed crits, or even orange/redcrits.

I would prefer to see headshots get finisher damage instead. But in either case, a change like this would push people to have to work and focus on headshots... again bringing up the argument that why shouldnt I just use a plasmor instead? Less work, less skill, gets the job done.

 

So what changes can you suggest that makes snipers more appealing than the roflstomp noob cannons that exist out there now, without ruining what snipers should be in the first place? I dont think you can, because the defending (albeit lame) argument is... why should I when X weapon does it with less effort.

Edited by Faulcun
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All I'd like to see is innate punchthrough (e.g. like the Dera Snipetron) and the extended range after the 300 m falloff distance for rifles that'll come.

 

Scope sway is fine. It feels like actually using a scope on a gun, not playing some point and click adventure. At the point where you aim for center of mass because you can't reliably aim for weakpoints, you're already so far away you can easily make several follow up shots without being threatened or even detected.

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