Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

PoE : get rid of hitscan too.


BrazilianJoe
 Share

Recommended Posts

On 9/22/2017 at 1:26 PM, GrayArchon said:

I feel like weapon mod slots are already packed enough as it is. I've tried adding flight speed to things like the Prisma Angstrum but it just gimps the damage. Also, there haven't been any new corrupted mods since the very first batch, four years ago. I highly doubt they'll release more.

What? Thought vile acceleration and Co were batch 2?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/22/2017 at 1:12 PM, BrazilianJoe said:

Devs have stated that they are getting damage falloff implemented in all weapons. 

Well, if you are going that route, I think it would make sense to also get rid of hitscan and give all bullets travel time.

Hitscan works differently than projectiles, and it has very different effects with different warframe powers. 

Bringing projectiles travel time to all weapons would bring consistency, and would make distances all the more important with PoE.

As a rule of thumb, I think current hitscan weapons would more or less be 1.5-2.0x faster than Boltor Prime. 

Snipers and sniper pistols would be twice as fast (or more) as other weapons. 

This would potentially open up new classes of mods. projectile travel speed would be more important, but there would also be corrupted mods which increase short-range damage but increase falloff, or increase speed but also recoil, and other combinations of corrupted traits. 

GOD, if this game's other "projectile" weapons are any indication, NO, no......just let us keep hit scan.  80ms velocity?  120ms velocity....dear GOD is that so slow its not even friggin useable, esp. over any kind of distance.

Unless they wanna also boost the speed up to something useful like 600-700ms....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That would require a lot of computing power for PCs and cause lag and slowdown. Like Kohm's projectiles used to have travel time and particle trails, which could result in considerable lag even on high-end computers. Then the Kohm undergo several changes to its damage and projectile count, before simply making the projectiles hitscan instead.

Edited by Bobman111
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/22/2017 at 12:12 PM, BrazilianJoe said:

This would potentially open up new classes of mods. projectile travel speed would be more important, but there would also be corrupted mods which increase short-range damage but increase falloff, or increase speed but also recoil, and other combinations of corrupted traits. 

We already have those. They're called Rivens.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is a maximum speed you can have for projectiles that's actually a lot slower than you would think it would be. Time in a video game is granular, if you look at smaller and smaller sections of time eventually you reach a point where nothing can happen over that duration. Movement of objects isn't continuous its a series of teleports essentially. if you get something moving extremely fast within one of these granular time ticks a projectile can go from one side of an entity to the other without colliding, this is called tunneling. and the speeds required are actually much lower than you would expect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/22/2017 at 1:12 PM, BrazilianJoe said:

Devs have stated that they are getting damage falloff implemented in all weapons. 

Well, if you are going that route, I think it would make sense to also get rid of hitscan and give all bullets travel time.

Hitscan works differently than projectiles, and it has very different effects with different warframe powers. 

Bringing projectiles travel time to all weapons would bring consistency, and would make distances all the more important with PoE.

As a rule of thumb, I think current hitscan weapons would more or less be 1.5-2.0x faster than Boltor Prime. 

Snipers and sniper pistols would be twice as fast (or more) as other weapons. 

This would potentially open up new classes of mods. projectile travel speed would be more important, but there would also be corrupted mods which increase short-range damage but increase falloff, or increase speed but also recoil, and other combinations of corrupted traits. 

The Problem is that hitscan weapons are an equalizer. They allow less skilled and controller players to contribute on par with high skill players using traveling projectiles.

For a PVE game, this is a positive thing.

Now enemies...yeah, they should ALL lose hitscan weapons. Slash proc would be fair, if dodging were really dodging.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As I see it, PoE is having big boisterous brags of performance improvements across the board, which will fix earth tileset lag & make PoE run smooth. 

Those improvements reach both game & rendering threads, so as far as dev infor goes, all "removing hitscan would break the game" arguments can be killed in one swoop of Atterax slash proc. 

KILL HITSCAN (except for very specific cases like Opticor).

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bad idea.

Did you know beam weapons used to be calculated per tick instead of after 1 second ?
And DE canned it ? Because it caused too much data processes.

Also did you know that that back in the day, Multishot mods, especially shotguns rendered every single pellet on the wall.
15 pellets means you literally see 15 pellets hit. For pistols like the AK Bronco which has both Barrel Diffusion and Lethal torrent back then, they literally peppered the screen with pellets. Why those were removed ? Again too much processing power taken up to register every hit.

Hell, remember the Kohm pre-rework ? It crashed high end machines due to how many projectiles it threw out.
Especially once MS and ROF mods are factored in. With Mirage it became a machine killer. So DE nerfed it to hit scan.

Addition of projectiles to every single hit scan weapon is going to kill toaster machines, and considering how much many enemies more screen throw out lead, this is a bad thing on weaker machines, since the game has to calculate them from the enemies as well. 

And while I do miss the glory days, DE had to made compromises to run Warframe on consoles.
So this is what we get.

 

Edited by fatpig84
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/22/2017 at 1:12 PM, BrazilianJoe said:

Devs have stated that they are getting damage falloff implemented in all weapons. 

Well, if you are going that route, I think it would make sense to also get rid of hitscan and give all bullets travel time.

Hitscan works differently than projectiles, and it has very different effects with different warframe powers. 

Bringing projectiles travel time to all weapons would bring consistency, and would make distances all the more important with PoE.

As a rule of thumb, I think current hitscan weapons would more or less be 1.5-2.0x faster than Boltor Prime. 

Snipers and sniper pistols would be twice as fast (or more) as other weapons. 

This would potentially open up new classes of mods. projectile travel speed would be more important, but there would also be corrupted mods which increase short-range damage but increase falloff, or increase speed but also recoil, and other combinations of corrupted traits. 

You're asking for a pretty big change there. Hits can is one of the easiest and least taxing methods of hit detection. From what I'm seeing, that map is gonna be huge and the enemies will be plentiful. The Grineer shoot way to much for this to happen, and so do we. Just leave it as it sounds. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No to removing hitscan.  Lower end rigs will suffer for it.

I recommend the opposite - speed up the projectiles of projectile weapons so that they'll actually be worth using outside of tile sets.  I would recommend around 400 meters per second velocity to start as an average.  A velocity mod (+60%) would bump them up to 640 meters per second. 

Or you know... make projectile weapons loads stronger in other areas so they're worth the hassle of leading and making sure there isn't something between your Warframe and the target, since projectiles fly from the barrel of your guns, not the camera.

Referencing Planetside 2 here, which was a game where every bullet fired had a velocity and drop.  400-450m/s was carbine standard, 640m/s was the upper end before ammo modifications.  It made a world of difference when hitting a moving target at any distance.  Mind, the highest reasonable engagement distance was ~100m, where after sniper rifles become the only practical means of engagement, though most fighting happened within 30-40m.

Edited by Littleman88
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't care for Battlefield style bullet physics. There it may be significant due to the fact that everything is slow moving and the distances can be in 1-2 km. There is no need to add such stuff here where the firing is usually done in 10-100m range. It will only lower the performance by a lot when you add stuff like loads of multishot or Mirage's clones.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/22/2017 at 12:30 PM, BrazilianJoe said:

Yeah but if the current hitscan are converted into very fast projectiles, they would also hit their target faster, thus not requiring too much extra processing time.

Not too much processing time relative to a hitscan shot's process? What makes you say that?

I find this highly unlikely with warframe projectile bullets.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Ventura_Highway said:

Not too much processing time relative to a hitscan shot's process? What makes you say that?

I find this highly unlikely with warframe projectile bullets.

Context. 

In comparison with e.g. Drakgoon, which fires a volley of slow travelling proectiles, a Soma (converted from hitscan) would shoot projectiles one by one, and their speed would be much faster. Thus, Soma projectiles will not exist on average for nearly as long as Drakgoon projectiles, because they will fly faster, hit something faster, and cease to exist faster. It is safe to say that a projectile-based assault Rifle will have a footprint equal os smaller than a projectile-based shotgun. 

Given that the game 1) already has enough performance to run the required simulations for the kohms and drakgoons that we have, and 2) will bring forth more optimizations for the rendering and simulation pipelines with PoE, the removal of hitscan remains in the realm of possibility. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Man the op is such a 'lite' player that he wants to make the game harder. I wish everyone could be as 'lite' as him.

 

Seriously there is zero reason to add this other than to annoy people and brag that you're better than everyone else because you can got a headshot at X metres with a non hitscan weapon.

Edited by (PS4)Chris_Robet
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, (PS4)Chris_Robet said:

Man the op is such a 'lite' player that he wants to make the game harder. I wish everyone could be as 'lite' as him.

 

Seriously there is zero reason to add this other than to annoy people and brag that you're better than everyone else because you can got a headshot at X metres with a non hitscan weapon.

The first statement goes straight-up "ad-hominem", please don't do that. talk about the ideas on their merits, attacking the messenger only shows weakness on the attacker's argument. It's also a way to poison a thread which could derail it, we can talk about ideas on better standards. 

The second statement is posting opinion dressed up as fact, on top of repeating the same sin of the first. 

One of the common threads in game's community is the desire for more challenge. You can't provide challenge without making something more difficult.

Rebalancing the game is by definition tipping the scales in the relationship of two items, where one will get a benefit (buff) and another will have a harder time (nerf). 

You can't produce challenge without either introducing a harder target or changing the rules. Since we know scaling is broken, that also needs to be changed. Hitscan is just one more item with different mechanics yielding different results, which also adds complexity and inconsistency in other areas, including the effects of some warframe powers. 

 

Edited by BrazilianJoe
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎9‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 10:24 PM, (PS4)cdzbrbr said:

What the heck people?

Are all these thread creators for real?

DE announced we'll get a huge damage fall off that will probably mean nothing for us 99% of the time and we have people suggesting absurds like this and more?

 

I know right?  Even on PC, using a sniper beyond about 250m is difficult, and not made any easier by Tusk Grineer being clad in a molted stone gray, grass green, and dirt brown camo pattern.  The only thing I can hit beyond 300m are eximus units thanks to their auras making them stand out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bullet travel time?  Sure, if DE could get projectiles to line up and actually move at a believable speed.  The speeds in game, just holy god, they arent useable within the confines of a normal tile set, never mind trying to hit something at like 250m out..... 

As it is, I honestly dont find I can even hit anything beyond a few meters, my Soma Prime has like 18 accuracy, I tried firing at 300m and my rounds wouldnt hit anything anyway, spread was to much. 

I think hit scan is fine for this game. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/24/2017 at 10:33 PM, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

We already have those. They're called Rivens.

When will rivens become not $&*&*#(%&?  Like, only available one in a million in the Sorties, and then you gotta 1 in a million to get it for a weapon your using, then you gotta 1 in a million it again to get stats you want?  That between running the stupid Kuva farm missions, which are a hellva lot more annoying then they are worth. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, KnightCole said:

When will rivens become not $&*&*#(%&?  Like, only available one in a million in the Sorties, and then you gotta 1 in a million to get it for a weapon your using, then you gotta 1 in a million it again to get stats you want?  That between running the stupid Kuva farm missions, which are a hellva lot more annoying then they are worth. 

Nope, Rivens not that hard to get. I got 33 already and from those, quite a bunch are for my often-used weapons. Plus, you can trade for non-outrageous prices, depending on playing with actual friends and a good clan. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/16/2017 at 2:50 PM, BrazilianJoe said:

Nope, Rivens not that hard to get. I got 33 already and from those, quite a bunch are for my often-used weapons. Plus, you can trade for non-outrageous prices, depending on playing with actual friends and a good clan. 

33?  Hot dog........ive got 2, and ran a few sorties for nothing but Ayatans...stopped cuz well, those missions aint worth Ayatans....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, KnightCole said:

33?  Hot dog........ive got 2, and ran a few sorties for nothing but Ayatans...stopped cuz well, those missions aint worth Ayatans....

Well, once you start piling up Rivens, you will enjoy the ayatans very much, because they can be converted into healthy amounts of Endo to max them. At the very minimum, you can sell them for plat.

It took me a long time to start enjoying the Sorties. If I started sooner I could be better off. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...