Plains of Eidolon: Sniper Review!

[Yargami]

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Nittymaster said:

As far as the proposed combo counter changes go will the Arca Scisco pistol change too?  Only makes sense to me.

   2 second decay rate and hits are affected by multishot. As far as I know, the only thing the Arca Scisco doesn't have is stack loss when you miss. I doubt they'll be adding that to it, particularly given the popularity of the Scisco.

[tnccs215]

6 minutes ago, Foxbat40 said:

In order to keep FPS up they have lots of LOS blockers in game. Ridges and hills block the LOS in most recent videos. The 400m range is probably their longest visable distance in POE. 

They reduced the zooms but removed sway. Overall this is a huge accuracy improvement. 

On one hand, yes. 

On the other:

Being 8x zoom the maximum possible zoom of any sniper rifles, hitting enemies at 300 meters will be nigh' impossible - much less at 400. 

Yes, the sway is a great improvement, I don't deny that. But if you want to hit something, you have to be able to see it in the first place - and with the changes, there is not one  sniper rifle capable of that. Not at 400 meters. 

And it's not like the Ai is predictable enough for you to take the privilege of telegraphing them. 

12 minutes ago, Foxbat40 said:

The real problems I see are the Lanka and its slow projectile speed. And the low combo counter time of 2 seconds. That is not a lot of time to aim. Who knows maybe punch through and multishot yield more combo points per shot than we think.

Well, I'll be honest: there can be more than one problem. That is, instead of saying that this or that is the real issue, I say all issues are real issues!

Anyway, no, I don't think they will count too much. They might even hinder it: multishot also counts for misses, and iirc, every time a bullet touches a non-enemy surface, it counts as a miss. This means everytime you kill an enemy without needing your extra bullet, you'll loose one stack. This gets worse if bullets that punched through enemies and hit walls or the ground also count has a miss. Since all s piers now have innate punch through.... "problematic" is an understatement. 

If the very existence of the combo is bad news, it's base duration is goddamn criminal. 

 

[ADDgamer45]

3 minutes ago, SolidWulf said:

 

Neither. Just because DE's current plan doesn't fit your personal definition of what a sniper rifle should be (which is subjective and has changed throughout history), doesn't mean it isn't satisfactory for others.

I have average to below average vision, my aim is terrible, my mouse surface is trash, I'm using a wireless mouse, my sensitivity is hardly ideal, and I'm not struggling to hit targets 120+ meters away at 2.5x zoom. That's effectively the same as shooting targets 280+ meters away.

 

 

There are multitudes of people more skilled than I who would easily do better than me. And there's no need to engage beyond 300 meters. They can't hear me shooting at them from 120 meters away, which means I can fire away without fear. If my goal was to snipe on a regular basis, I'd bring Ivara (with a Hushed sniper rifle) or Banshee to PoE, further increasing my options for stealthy engagement.

Again not the point. Why make snipers not snipers? When there are 20 other things that are just as effective. What is the point of the nerf?

[DreamsmithJane]

I'm going to have to agree with the people pointing out that this doesn't solve sniper rifles' inconsistent damage problem due to their difficulty in reaching 100% crit chance (very important for headshot-focused weapons). There is a reason that Lanka has been considered the best sniper rifle by many. Putting aside its huge punch through and base damage, It's the only one that can guarantee crits using only Point Strike. If you want bonus headshot damage, the thing to do is make sure they crit. Look at the Vulkar Wraith. At max zoom, it has +70% headshot damage? Well, that's great, but a crit has +780% headshot damage, and it only crits half the time. And Rubico? The yellow numbers are over 16 times higher than the white ones, for a headshot.

Don't get me wrong. These changes are great. Combos seem useful with this. But inconsistent crit stats on precision weapons, in a system that adds an extra multiplier to weak spot hits based on RNG crit, is unacceptable. The difference between a yellow crit and an orange one is something I can live with. But the difference between a yellow crit and no crit on headshots completely defeats the feeling of being rewarded for skilled play that is sought by players who use sniper rifles. You can line up that perfect headshot, but half your bullets are going to do a tiny fraction of their potential damage anyway, and you have no control over it.

[Yargami]

1 hour ago, Dobroazur said:

I feel like DE is afraid long-range sniping will effectively break the plains.
What is stopping you from just avoiding all and any danger if you can just snipe everything from 600m away?
Enemies will not shoot back at you, and even if they do they have such a bad aim they will never hit you, you could clear all hostiles from all the map without having to fight ever. That's just unacceptable from a game design standpoint.

It may sound strange, but i'm pretty sure sniper rifles are in the game only because the tiles of the normal missions will never allow you to use them as real sniper rifles. Now with POE they suddenly could work as real snipers, and the idea of players being able to kill enemies from miles away with no risks screams "broken" like nothing else.

So here you get your scopes nerfs.

   I'm guessing it's a combination of this and the fact that most of the terrain I've seen on the plains won't allow extremely long range sniping most of the time anyways. Why have your scopes set so that they only work for situations that don't exist in the vast majority of gameplay? It's impractical. Sure you can say "I killed an enemy from 1km out," but I'm guessing that is not what most of the gameplay is going to be like.

[Weird_Stealth]

I know I'm not the only one here, but can we not have the zoom nerfed!? It's fine, and for the plains, you want to keep the zoom as is, on the normal tiles they should be nerfed.

[ADDgamer45]

8 minutes ago, Yargami said:

   I'm guessing it's a combination of this and the fact that most of the terrain I've seen on the plains won't allow extremely long range sniping most of the time anyways. Why have your scopes set so that they only work for situations that don't exist in the vast majority of gameplay? It's impractical. Sure you can say "I killed an enemy from 1km out," but I'm guessing that is not what most of the gameplay is going to be like.

You get to use your primary weapons with your arching from what we saw... that and no way but the scopes have more than 1 zoom setting.

[SolidJames]

3 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Being 8x zoom the maximum possible zoom of any sniper rifles, hitting enemies at 300 meters will be nigh' impossible - much less at 400. 

Provably false, considering that despite my poor aim I can hit targets just fine at 2.5x zoom. It's the same as shooting at targets 2.4 times the listed distance if I was zoomed in by 6x, or 3.2 times the distance if I was zoomed in by 8x. One of the targets I hit is 156 meters away, assuming the changes were live and I was on the Plains, that means I can headshot targets at 500 meters away.

Spoiler

 

 

3 minutes ago, ADDgamer45 said:

Again not the point. Why make snipers not snipers? When there are 20 other things that are just as effective. What is the point of the nerf?

You continually saying they're not snipers doesn't make it a fact. It's a video game, and in video games things are usually scaled far down for a multitude of reasons. Sniper rifles are still going to be more effective than anything else for killing at these long ranges.

There is literally no difference between killing a target 300 meters away and 1000 meters away in Warframe. There is no tactical difference, they can't detect you at either range to return fire. You just lose bragging rights for your 1km kills, something I couldn't care less about.

[DreamsmithJane]

17 minutes ago, Fylas said:

that means the corpus rail/coilgun has a muzzle velocity of 720 kilometers, while real world snipers are around  4 times that X_X

I've long since given up on this. In reality, railguns have muzzle velocities much, much higher than gas propelled weapons, yet Lanka and Velocitus projectiles have flight time, while normal bullets are hitscan. It makes no sense for hitscan to exist and not be given to Lanka in the first place.

[ADDgamer45]

9 minutes ago, SolidWulf said:

Provably false, considering that despite my poor aim I can hit targets just fine at 2.5x zoom. It's the same as shooting at targets 2.4 times the listed distance if I was zoomed in by 6x, or 3.2 times the distance if I was zoomed in by 8x. One of the targets I hit is 156 meters away, assuming the changes were live and I was on the Plains, that means I can headshot targets at 500 meters away.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

You continually saying they're not snipers doesn't make it a fact. It's a video game, and in video games things are usually scaled far down for a multitude of reasons. Sniper rifles are still going to be more effective than anything else for killing at these long ranges.

There is literally no difference between killing a target 300 meters away and 1000 meters away in Warframe. There is no tactical difference, they can't detect you at either range to return fire. You just lose bragging rights for your 1km kills, something I couldn't care less about.

It is not like they are going to be standing still. And so exactly why bother making something less op but still actually just as op but ruining the weapon class at the same time? You could fix the lower ends of the scope and leave the higher ends alone and get the best of both worlds.

[SolidJames]

Just now, ADDgamer45 said:

It is not like they are going to be standing still. And so exactly why bother making something less op but still actually just as op but ruining the weapon class at the same time?

 

Then learn to aim at moving targets, that fourth bombard I shot in my gif was moving. Sniper rifles use hitscan, except for the poor Lanka users (who I have the utmost sympathy for and believe the weapon should be hitscan too). Which means you just have to point and click. No bullet drop to account for, no target leading to account for. Which is a lot easier than sniping in reality.

You can't claim a weapon class has been ruined and then also still admit it's still OP. 

If anything, getting rid of the 12x zooms is a small quality of life buff as far as I'm concerned. It was always annoying cycling past the 12x zoom (which I almost never used) on my Vulkar Wraith to go back and forth between 2.5x and 6x. Shockingly, these guns aren't just for PoE. I'm excited for 2.5x/4x/8x zoom levels on my Vulkar Wraith on normal tilesets. If we want to give all snipers 8x as their max instead of 6x, I won't mind that, but to claim that sniper rifles are ruined as a distinct and unique weapon class is a funny joke.

[ADDgamer45]

8 minutes ago, SolidWulf said:

 

Then learn to aim at moving targets, that fourth bombard I shot in my gif was moving. Sniper rifles use hitscan, except for the poor Lanka users (who I have the utmost sympathy for and believe the weapon should be hitscan too). Which means you just have to point and click. No bullet drop to account for, no target leading to account for. Which is a lot easier than sniping in reality.

You can't claim a weapon class has been ruined and then also still admit it's still OP. 

If anything, getting rid of the 12x zooms is a small quality of life buff as far as I'm concerned. It was always annoying cycling past the 12x zoom (which I almost never used) on my Vulkar Wraith to go back and forth between 2.5x and 6x. Shockingly, these guns aren't just for PoE. I'm excited for 2.5x/4x/8x zoom levels on my Vulkar Wraith on normal tilesets. If we want to give all snipers 8x as their max instead of 6x, I won't mind that, but to claim that sniper rifles are ruined as a distinct and unique weapon class is a funny joke.

There it is, you are annoyed at scrolling past the 12x zoom but guess what you are going to scroll past the 6x also. So think of a better angle to make more people happy. Like swappable scopes or changing zoom outside of being aimed down sights. Never settle for mediocre. It is a videogame, it can literally be almost anything. :)

[SolidJames]

Just now, ADDgamer45 said:

There it is you are annoyed at scrolling past the 12x zoom but guess what you are going to scroll past the 6x also.

 

Except that 6x is usable on normal tilesets, unlike 12x. So I'll be scrolling between three useful zoom levels, instead of two useful ones and one detrimental one.

 

I'm not sure if you were going for a "I caught you" moment but it didn't work.

[Fylas]

@[DE]Megan  @[DE]Rebecca Since the idea seems to be to avoid being able to cheese enemies from very large distances in eidolon I feel it is only fair to remind you of Ivara's navigator with its 5x to 15x damage multiplier depending on power strength, you will be able to use a single lanka shot to wipe out a entire battalion of grineer troops in the open field with a bit of practice as the 200 meter/s speed no longer is a issue due to the lack of tight corridors. Ivara would be able to pretty much go freischütz on enemies in Eidolon at 2.5 to 7.5 damage with the -50% fall off.

Unless the Lanka / navigator get changed or adjusted the thing you are trying to avoid is just going to be limited to a single frame and gun combo rather then being eliminated. Still good luck with getting your vision for snipers realized! :O 

[ADDgamer45]

3 minutes ago, SolidWulf said:

 

Except that 6x is usable on normal tilesets, unlike 12x. So I'll be scrolling between three useful zoom levels, instead of two useful ones and one detrimental one.

 

I'm not sure if you were going for a "I caught you" moment but it didn't work.

There you go again thinking in your little bitty box again. And half the snipers only have 2 zoom levels already ;)

[Kothic]

I think I thought of a "solution" for the scope zooms.

How about this:

- When unscoped, you can press alt-fire button to change "scope type" or "scope mode"(like changing fire mode in zenith, zarr or stradavar)
- Each "scope type"/"mode" has different ranges of zoom (for example first mode is 4,5x - 8x and second is 6x - 10x and third 7x - 12x?)
- When scoped everything will change normally (so it'll just have those certain levels of zoom withing the range of "scope type" or "scope mode") and will keep the same bonuses

P.S.: Sorry for some errors and misunderstandings, English isn't my native-language.

[MirageKnight]

21 hours ago, Ragingwasabi said:

- DE please consider making all the snipers more reliable. give them a higher crit chance of at least 35% base crit (87.5% with basic crit mods) so they can do more consistent damage. it makes no sense for a precision weapon whose every shot counts to just not do dmg at all because RNGesus decided "NO." and its even worse when RNG decides to not let you crit at all 3 shots in a row. its really ruins sniping in this game.

- what about more accurate hipfiring? it wont make our slow firing guns with small magazines become anything OP. remember the lex prime is pretty much plays like a sniper and it has accurate hipfire. this is quite an important issue considering the map sizes that most of the game plays in. it also requires skill to hit enemies with single shot weapons. if anything it rewards skill.

- the 2 second combo counter makes no sense for a weapon that requires timing and patience. please increase it to something that allows proper sniper play

I can't upvote this post enough.

1. Sniping is about bringing down a target in one shot by finding a weakpoint and putting a high calibre, high velocity round in it. The whole concept of critical hits is the weapon being able to find a chink in the target's defenses and thus doing significantly more damage. Crit chance needs to be a minimum of 35%.

2. Sniper weapons by definition and role are noted for their inherent accuracy and stability, with or without a scope, so why should a sniper weapon suddenly LOSE accuracy if you're not using a scope? DE, we get that Sniper Rifles need downsides, but this downside completely goes against what defines a sniper weapon. Even using a scope has a tradeoff - you gain fantastic resolution that allows you to spot far away targets...at the massive expense of losing close range peripheral vision: You can't see someone that might be trying to flank you.

3. I couldn't agree more. This is also runs completely counter to how Snipers work. The whole point of a Sniper is to carefully pick out a high value target and bring it down with - hopefully - one shot before it can be a threat to friendlies. I say scrap the combo system and actually reward players for taking their time instead of punishing them.

In addition, damage falloff for ALL weapons, not just Snipers, feels like an arbitrary, gimmicky kick in the teeth. I'm absolutely fine with Bullet drop / accuracy drop over range. I'm even fine with things like pellet scatter and limited flight time. But damage falloff is something that should only apply to the aoe damage of a blast weapon. Maybe apply falloff to penetration over long range...but not raw damage.

[ADDgamer45]

1 minute ago, Kothic said:

I think I thought of a "solution" for the scope zooms.

How about this:

- When unscoped, you can press alt-fire button to change "scope type" or "scope mode"(like changing fire mode in zenith, zarr or stradavar)
- Each "scope type"/"mode" has different ranges of zoom (for example first mode is 4,5x - 8x and second is 6x - 10x and third 7x - 12x?)
- When scoped everything will change normally (so it'll just have those certain levels of zoom withing the range of "scope type" or "scope mode") and will keep the same bonuses

P.S.: Sorry for some errors and misunderstandings, English isn't my native-language.

@SolidWulf See this guy has the right idea.

[Yargami]

   OK, after playing around both in the Simulacrum and in missions, 6x-8x for maximum zoom for 200-400m is fine. Most maps it's a pure buff, and I suspect there won't be a huge amount of point in doing ~1km sniping in the plains (other than bragging rights, which I don't think the devs are super interested in). Yes, it is easier with a higher zoom level, but it's no where near impossible with 6x-8x.
   So here are my revised thoughts on what changes have been proposed:
- Scope sway removal: Yes. Snipers never should have had scope sway in a game that puts so much emphasis on speed, especially when you are going to put a timed combo mechanic on it (more on that later).
- 1 meter punch-through: Also a pure buff. Maybe not quite as necessary as the steady scopes due to Shred, but still quite welcome.
- Everything about the combo mechanic: Better than it was, but I still think that snipers should not have a combo mechanic that alters their damage at all. Snipers should be reliable in damage values and that first shot should specifically be good. I could see having a utility based mechanic (something like a small chance to return ammo to your reserves when landing a shot, chance determined by combo count), but nothing affecting damage (base damage or critical chance/damage).
- Scope zoom level changes: Honestly, the only thing I have a slight problem with is that the sniper rifle zooms are not at the same ratio relative to each other. I think a better way to do it would have been pulling all the zooms back by the same percentage (rounded to reasonable levels, obviously) so that the longest scopes are still the longest scopes.
- Headshot damage multipliers on zoom levels: This is fine by me. I've always felt that the bonuses from zooming in should be more consistent across different snipers anyways (with the possible exception of the Lanka, which could use a projectile speed buff on higher zooms in addition).

   So overall, what has changed is great and I look forward to seeing it in game. What hasn't changed (unreliability of damage values and the presence of a damage combo mechanic) could still use some work, but these changes aren't final and more changes can still be applied after the Plains launches anyways.

[ADDgamer45]

Right now the reason I would rather not lose the 12x scope because 50% damage drop off is not enough to deter me from aiming for those 600m+ range marks. And the use of standard weapons with archwing. 

[DarkDullahan]

13 hours ago, NoLazyShadow said:

Hmm..headshot damage bonus in scope mode? I dunno about that....

Best change cus its really hard to use scope with high zoom lvl...ok. i'll be honest. Its imposible to use scope with high zoom cus of crazy sway -_-

Speak for yourself, quite a few sniper players in WF I know can easily use 12x zoom in extremely close quarters. It's a skill gate thing, just because you can't do it yourself doesn't mean everyone can't.

9 hours ago, CpTKugelHagel said:

yeah i know but im a long time battlefield sniper player so no prob ^^

Two immensely different games and shot mechanics, you also have to think that apart from the physics mechanics in battlefield, the snipers are almost 100% accurate, this isn't the case in Warframe at all, as only a couple of the sniper rifles have a 100% base accuracy.

7 hours ago, Luhcs said:

im really going to enjoy the rubico with the less zoom. willl it stack with the Ambush Optics for conclave? However if you REALLY want to add quality of life changes to rubico, lower the Reload speed, tis just a bit long, for 6 shots

7 hours ago, mrrobotto67 said:

Did they buff the magazine size? i remember the mag size being 5 ...

Conclave stats are different, for both scopes and magazines.

 

5 hours ago, HalfDarkShadow said:

How in the world is it? We got an increased fire rate which is great.

And the zoom is now more balanced and actually makes sense and not as ridiculous as before.

You may personally view it as "balanced" but there are leagues of other players that would disagree, one of the best things about the Rubico was its x12 zoom, even in close quarters. There are times even in normal gameplay where that x12 zoom was useful/needed, there's no point to remove it now that a large open-world sandbox is being added.

4 hours ago, SolidWulf said:

 

Scope sway has been removed, there is no bullet drop and most snipers (minus Lanka) are hitscan. If you're not able to hit headshots after all of this, it's your problem. Especially so with the 8x zoom, which I think would be fair for all snipers to get instead of just a couple of them.

 

The advantage of engaging enemies with a sniper rifle over an assault rifle is their inability to engage back. It's a video game. Grineer are all short-sighted as it is.

You're also not accounting for multishot trajectory variations on the majority of the snipers (cause only 2 or 3 of the snipers currently have a base 100% accuracy rating), even at a 100m range this effects things to an unsightly amount, let alone at a 400m+ range

4 hours ago, Slayer89 said:

I'l say let's wait and see [DE]Rebecca said the changes are not final and can be changed so there's no use of stressing over it, and as it is the my longest shots were around 211 meter on corpus interception with Vectis prime and i don't think there will be much longer shots on the plains due to natural covers (Trees, hills, boulders and whatnot)

Yes, but there are also rises, mountains, and outposts that have a high view of the land which makes it possible to do so the same as any other game with snipers.

3 hours ago, Yargami said:

   This is pretty much my motto in life. I could get upset about all sorts of stuff, but what's the point? I can state what I think without wasting energy and be happier and less stressed in the end.

   This seems to be something people don't seem to think about much. Yes, the plains are over 2km long, but watching the devstreams and such, there's no way we can snipe that anyways. The only way you could do that is via Archwing, and balancing an entire weapon category around one tiny (compared to the rest of the game) possibility seems kind of silly.

Two points, there are high terrain areas that overlook valleys, and Archwing does indeed use normal weapons on Plains (from both gameplay sessions we've seen so far)

2 hours ago, Dobroazur said:

I feel like DE is afraid long-range sniping will effectively break the plains.
What is stopping you from just avoiding all and any danger if you can just snipe everything from 600m away?
Enemies will not shoot back at you, and even if they do they have such a bad aim they will never hit you, you could clear all hostiles from all the map without having to fight ever. That's just unacceptable from a game design standpoint.

It may sound strange, but i'm pretty sure sniper rifles are in the game only because the tiles of the normal missions will never allow you to use them as real sniper rifles. Now with POE they suddenly could work as real snipers, and the idea of players being able to kill enemies from miles away with no risks screams "broken" like nothing else.

So here you get your scopes nerfs.

Yes, but this breaks the playstyle some players were wanting to go for. One of the most exciting things in a game is having a player-sniper cover your back from a distance (CoD MW2 Special Operation missions, I'm looking at you), it allows for more tactical gameplay we haven't seen in Warframe in many years. 

1 hour ago, SolidWulf said:

 

Neither. Just because DE's current plan doesn't fit your personal definition of what a sniper rifle should be (which is subjective and has changed throughout history), doesn't mean it isn't satisfactory for others.

I have average to below average vision, my aim is terrible, my mouse surface is trash, I'm using a wireless mouse, my sensitivity is hardly ideal, and I'm not struggling to hit targets 120+ meters away at 2.5x zoom. That's effectively the same as shooting targets 280+ meters away.

 

 

There are multitudes of people more skilled than I who would easily do better than me. And there's no need to engage beyond 300 meters. They can't hear me shooting at them from 120 meters away, which means I can fire away without fear. If my goal was to snipe on a regular basis, I'd bring Ivara (with a Hushed sniper rifle) or Banshee to PoE, further increasing my options for stealthy engagement.

It doesn't change the fact that that's not even half the distance that snipers are going to be effective in the change. You might want to consider the fact that enemy models will be about 2.5 times smaller than they are in that gif, and that only a few of the snipers have 100% accuracy, so multishot on a Vectis or Vulkar is going to impact them more heavily than Rubico.

27 minutes ago, SolidWulf said:

 

Except that 6x is usable on normal tilesets, unlike 12x. So I'll be scrolling between three useful zoom levels, instead of two useful ones and one detrimental one.

 

I'm not sure if you were going for a "I caught you" moment but it didn't work.

x12 is still usable, even with scope sway, I know this because I can personally use it, as can quite a number of my friends that use snipers. Don't complain with us that there's a difficulty gate while arguing that snipers don't require skill, it make a moot point.

[CpTKugelHagel]

2 minutes ago, DarkDullahan-Prime said:

Two immensely different games and shot mechanics, you also have to think that apart from the physics mechanics in battlefield, the snipers are almost 100% accurate, this isn't the case in Warframe at all, as only a couple of the sniper rifles have a 100% base accuracy.

i wasnt thinking of the shot mechanics i was more thinking of the "shooting a few moving pixels" thing

 

[DarkDullahan]

7 minutes ago, CpTKugelHagel said:

i wasnt thinking of the shot mechanics i was more thinking of the "shooting a few moving pixels" thing

 

Shot mechanics will play heavily into it. So it's technically relevant.

[DatDarkOne]

47 minutes ago, Fylas said:

@[DE]Megan  @[DE]Rebecca Since the idea seems to be to avoid being able to cheese enemies from very large distances in eidolon I feel it is only fair to remind you of Ivara's navigator with its 5x to 15x damage multiplier depending on power strength, you will be able to use a single lanka shot to wipe out a entire battalion of grineer troops in the open field with a bit of practice as the 200 meter/s speed no longer is a issue due to the lack of tight corridors. Ivara would be able to pretty much go freischütz on enemies in Eidolon at 2.5 to 7.5 damage with the -50% fall off.

Unless the Lanka / navigator get changed or adjusted the thing you are trying to avoid is just going to be limited to a single frame and gun combo rather then being eliminated. Still good luck with getting your vision for snipers realized! :O 

Using Navigator to do that requires a good bit of energy.  So it can be considered a fair tradeoff.  More energy to boost range.  

8 minutes ago, DarkDullahan-Prime said:

Speak for yourself, quite a few sniper players in WF I know can easily use 12x zoom in extremely close quarters. It's a skill gate thing, just because you can't do it yourself doesn't mean everyone can't.

I can agree with this.  I didn't and still don't have any problems using full zoom and I use a controller.  :D

12 minutes ago, DarkDullahan-Prime said:

x12 is still usable, even with scope sway, I know this because I can personally use it, as can quite a number of my friends that use snipers. Don't complain with us that there's a difficulty gate while arguing that snipers don't require skill, it make a moot point.

This is a good point.  

[CpTKugelHagel]

Just now, DarkDullahan-Prime said:

Shot mechanics will play heavily into it. So it's technically relevant.

ye a pinpoint accuracy hitscan sniper rifle compared to a travel time sniperrifle without pinpoint accuarcy i guess its harder to hit with the warframe one (sarcasm)