Plains of Eidolon: Sniper Review!

[tnccs215]

11 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

The problem is that at the same time zoom levels have been nerfed, inflicting crits is still not reliable, and we're still forced to use our scopes...and fire as quickly as possible. This runs counter to how snipers operate and how sniper rifles work. No offense to Scott, Steve, or whoever brainstormed this "fix" to sniper weapons, but someone needs to go back, seriously study up on and analyze the subject of sniping, and then give us a proper sniper rework that makes sense.

Thank you. 

Many people have said "this is a game™ it does not need to be realistic" 

Indeed. But if that's so, than we have to rename the sniper rifle category to "scoped semi-automatic rifles" category, because sniping itself refers to a rather specific style and aesthethic of shooting that goes beyond simply having a bloody scope. 

The grinlock, the Sybaris and the Latron are currently more mechanically truthful snipers than the whole sniper category, exactly because they don't have a tacked on mechanic built around incremental damage that encourages rapid firing. 

[FashionFrame]

3 hours ago, Cebian said:

How is reducing the combo counter a positive? last i checked, snipers reward their users for lining up shots instead of bang, run over to other guy and hopes it hits.Snipers aren't like the latron series or grinlok which are more suited for fast paced action, it seems to me this change was done in order for those of us who would want to take advantage of the combo counter would have to use Harkonar scope in order to make it suitable. SO your basically forcing us to use a mod in our builds that most times we have gone quite well without for a decent amount of time now

I 100% agree with this!! Sniping is supposed to be about taking the time to line up that perfect shot. Many of the snipers are only good with that combo, and you're only making it a stressful time for someone to constantly look for an enemy to shoot, and hope you can keep that combo! The worst part, many of the sniper's reload speed is over that two seconds, so guess what?! Now we are forced to put on Primed Fast Hands so we don't lose that combo OR as Cebian stated, use Harkonar Scope.

 

[Yargami]

   Even if they aren't necessarily the best weapons out there (or even as good as they should be yet), I still enjoy using snipers, and, believe it or not, I actually play games for enjoyment. I don't really give a S#&$ whether my loadout is the best ever or can one-shot the Eidolons. I care if it is fun to use and can eventually get the job done. After watching the Prime Time yesterday, I think the scopes being pulled in is a buff in most of Warframe and, although technically a slight nerf, not really that devastating to snipers on the Plains. They still look really fun to use. Yes, you can always say you want to do a 1km snipe, but I don't think that will really be the majority of the gameplay on the plains.
   You also have to look at the fact that DE isn't abandoning the rest of the game when the Plains launches. The majority of Warframe is still tile based procedural levels. If anything, for most of the game, the scope change is simply an ill-timed buff that happened to release at the same time as the one instance it nerfs.
   That being said, I still don't think snipers should have a combo mechanic that affects damage.

[motorfirebox]

4 hours ago, CuChulainnWD said:

Sniper rifles are not meant to be hip fired unless you are in a pinch. That is why you have your secondary for close work.

Snipers also don't really need this disadvantage in order to put a check in their power. They are already incredibly limited by things like fire rate, ammo reserves, clip size, and reload speed. Making them inaccurate makes them kinda pointless.

I have never once, in 4ish years of playing, heard of someone complaining that snipers were stealing all the kills. In this game, that's pretty much the surest sign that something is underpowered.

[ADDgamer45]

2 hours ago, Duduminador said:

I'm stating that there isn't a single damn @(*()$ point in start nerfing the current meta in the game if new meta starts pilling up with every unchecked update.

You can't have a meta if everything is the meta. 

They would have to nerf half the stuff in the game to even get snipers anywhere close to the meta.

[Urlan]

Not entirely true @ADDgamer45, a "meta" doesn't mean you're an outlier but rather someone that is responding directly and doing game-play that is specifically rewarded by the developers of a game. For instance, in Magic the Gathering: Ravnica, you might have used Vihtu Ghazi the city tree and Glare of Subdual. No matter what main deck your were using, if you had white and green, players would assume the token creator and the enchantment, and thus you played the meta whether you actually had them or not. The token creation and ways of using those tokens were built into that archetype in that set while not being unheard of outside it, making the play environment stable for such a play while also having many answers for it in one way or another.

For what we call meta, its more a thing of 'is it so popular that most players use it'? We tend to call this popularity due to player gravitating to what common conception among players feel is best to be 'meta'. Even if every player accepted this, it wouldn't change it being a 'meta' or popular choice in this case.

[ADDgamer45]

3 hours ago, Urlan said:

Not entirely true @ADDgamer45, a "meta" doesn't mean you're an outlier but rather someone that is responding directly and doing game-play that is specifically rewarded by the developers of a game. For instance, in Magic the Gathering: Ravnica, you might have used Vihtu Ghazi the city tree and Glare of Subdual. No matter what main deck your were using, if you had white and green, players would assume the token creator and the enchantment, and thus you played the meta whether you actually had them or not. The token creation and ways of using those tokens were built into that archetype in that set while not being unheard of outside it, making the play environment stable for such a play while also having many answers for it in one way or another.

For what we call meta, its more a thing of 'is it so popular that most players use it'? We tend to call this popularity due to player gravitating to what common conception among players feel is best to be 'meta'. Even if every player accepted this, it wouldn't change it being a 'meta' or popular choice in this case.

My point the level of enemies in plains a sneeze could kill them for most of us long time players and if you nerf the range of snipers any new player that picks up a sniper because it sounds fun. In comparison to every other sniper game out right now 300m is literally the average range of most assault rifles. The end goal is to attract more players right? The meta isnt going to change much for us long time players.

[CuChulainnWD]

2 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

I do believe this an attempt to justify an arbitrary and unrealistic limitation for a weapon class that has enough drawbacks and restrictions as is. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

It's an established fact that sniper rifles are noted and chosen for their higher than normal accuracy and longer effective range compared to regular rifles. A scope doesn't -and shouldn't- magically change that accuracy. All a scope does is provide a tool that increases the odds of the shooter accurately putting a bullet on their intended target.

There are some welcome changes with the tune up to sniper rifles; nixing scope sway, making punch through a standardized thing and granting bonus damage on headshots are definitely good things and should have been a feature since day one.

The problem is that at the same time zoom levels have been nerfed, inflicting crits is still not reliable, and we're still forced to use our scopes...and fire as quickly as possible. This runs counter to how snipers operate and how sniper rifles work. No offense to Scott, Steve, or whoever brainstormed this "fix" to sniper weapons, but someone needs to go back, seriously study up on and analyze the subject of sniping, and then give us a proper sniper rework that makes sense.

No, watching "Saving Private Ryan" and "Enemy At The Gates" doesn't count as "studying".

I do agree. Mind it is not an arbitrary justification when you factor in all of your other points for the downside of using an SR at short ranges. If you find yourself having to hip fire you may as well be using your secondary at that point.

[tnccs215]

It's rather ironic how DE is removing limitations by upping the fire rate of all snipers and even making them encourage rapid-firing - going  directly against the very concept of a sniper - while maintaining universally disliked limitations such as from-the-hip innacuracy (presumably as compensation). 

Might be me (it isn't just me), but the opposite would make much, much more sense. 

[ADDgamer45]

Personally I think they should add a +zoom mod that is like covert lethality for snipers on headshot past a certain range. Because snipers won't ever have the dps killing potential of half the weapons in the game. Knell, arca sisco, and even seer can all 1 shot a level 40 if built right. Making snipers literally the least impressive weapons in the entire game.

[Foxbat40]

On 9/28/2017 at 10:42 AM, Gr1mjaw said:

but my mag needs projectile Lanka ;)

Get Supra and the augment and never look back.

[Ashkateer]

Nice. Can't wait for Plains of Eidolon.

[MirageKnight]

1 minute ago, CuChulainnWD said:

I do agree. Mind it is not an arbitrary justification when you factor in all of your other points for the downside of using an SR at short ranges. If you find yourself having to hip fire you may as well be using your secondary at that point.

Just one thing: It takes a couple of seconds to switch out a weapon and then draw a bead on a target with the new weapon. It's faster to use the weapon you already have in your hands to get rid of an immediate threat.

I agree that a pistol is definitely handier at close range due to higher rate of fire and inherent compactness and that a sniper rifle should be un-shouldered when long range targets are spotted - but that's the point of carrying 3 weapon types isn't it? To deal with different situations. You have your pistol out in case someone comes at you at close range and switch to the rifle for things that are farther away. And If I'm trying to draw a bead at a long range target and then another enemy pops up from the side at close range, I'm going to shoot them in the face with my rifle as opposed to wasting time switching weapons.

It still doesn't change the fact that a player should NOT be penalized for firing a sniper rifle unscoped, because of the fact that sniper rifles are inherently accurate. And I'll repeat that a scope does not change that accuracy - nor should it.

[Duduminador]

Dear god, people... you are still going to overkill everything on POE except the Eidolons itself for 2 digits past the max range.

[Zephyr]

1 hour ago, Duduminador said:

Dear god, people... you are still going to overkill everything on POE except the Eidolons itself for 2 digits past the max range.

True, but the entire game isn't PoE. And I realllllllly wish they'd fix reload and crit chances 

[Yargami]

4 minutes ago, Zephyr said:

True, but the entire game isn't PoE. And I realllllllly wish they'd fix reload and crit chances 

   Crit chances I can see, what's wrong with reload?

[CuChulainnWD]

2 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Just one thing: It takes a couple of seconds to switch out a weapon and then draw a bead on a target with the new weapon. It's faster to use the weapon you already have in your hands to get rid of an immediate threat.

I agree that a pistol is definitely handier at close range due to higher rate of fire and inherent compactness and that a sniper rifle should be un-shouldered when long range targets are spotted - but that's the point of carrying 3 weapon types isn't it? To deal with different situations. You have your pistol out in case someone comes at you at close range and switch to the rifle for things that are farther away. And If I'm trying to draw a bead at a long range target and then another enemy pops up from the side at close range, I'm going to shoot them in the face with my rifle as opposed to wasting time switching weapons.

It still doesn't change the fact that a player should NOT be penalized for firing a sniper rifle unscoped, because of the fact that sniper rifles are inherently accurate. And I'll repeat that a scope does not change that accuracy - nor should it.

Alas DE for what ever reason has decided that wielding a long rifle from the hip is not accurate. It will be accurate to where you point it, but "realistically' it is not as easy to draw down on a close target with a long rifle as it is to do so with a small arm he of there to draw down with my secondary and take out multiple close range threats or use my quick attack melee.

[DreamsmithJane]

Okay, for everyone saying this isn't how snipers work, remember which game you're playing. Patiently waiting for the right opportunity to take out a high-value target doesn't jive with a game largely built around challenging swarms of enemies in open combat. It makes sense that using a "sniper rifle" here doesn't make you a sniper, but simply long-range fire support. With that in mind, the thing to do is reward you for finding chances to set up and go to work, picking targets quickly and eliminating them just as quickly.

Seriously. If you snipe properly, in this game, you're just wasting time.

[ADDgamer45]

10 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Okay, for everyone saying this isn't how snipers work, remember which game you're playing. Patiently waiting for the right opportunity to take out a high-value target doesn't jive with a game largely built around challenging swarms of enemies in open combat. It makes sense that using a "sniper rifle" here doesn't make you a sniper, but simply long-range fire support. With that in mind, the thing to do is reward you for finding chances to set up and go to work, picking targets quickly and eliminating them just as quickly.

Seriously. If you snipe properly, in this game, you're just wasting time.

So then why have snipers in game?

[DreamsmithJane]

9 minutes ago, ADDgamer45 said:

So then why have snipers in game?

There aren't snipers. There are weapons called "sniper rifles", but the role of "sniper" does not really exist, and wouldn't make sense. If you mean to ask why there are sniper rifles, maybe it's because people like them. Many enjoy the idea of high precision, high damage weapons, and the feel of setting up on a high vantage point to provide fire support. People have often complained that there's no good DMR type weapon (myself among them), but that's what "sniper rifles" are in this game.

[Yargami]

19 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Seriously. If you snipe properly, in this game, you're just wasting time.

   If I enjoy it then I don't see it as a waste of time. Does it accomplish the missions as fast as the best meta build? Probably not, but that's not why I'm playing Warframe. I plan on being a wandering sniper on the plains once they launch. I'm guessing it won't actually get rewards nearly as quickly as bounties, but it will be fun and enjoyable.

[ADDgamer45]

6 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

There aren't snipers. There are weapons called "sniper rifles", but the role of "sniper" does not really exist, and wouldn't make sense. If you mean to ask why there are sniper rifles, maybe it's because people like them. Many enjoy the idea of high precision, high damage weapons, and the feel of setting up on a high vantage point to provide fire support. People have often complained that there's no good DMR type weapon (myself among them), but that's what "sniper rifles" are in this game.

You are right there are 0 Dmr style weapons in this game. The mags a too small and the reload times are too slow. The fire rates arent that great in dmr standards either. So they made neither dmrs nor sniper rifles with this "fix"

[DreamsmithJane]

1 minute ago, Yargami said:

Does it accomplish the missions as fast as the best meta build?

It might fail the mission. While you're "sniping" one enemy, ten more slip by and wreak havok. Like I said, these rifles are for long range fire support, not sniping. Semantics, I know, but I was addressing people saying this isn't a realistic way to handle sniper rifles. Basically, this game isn't built to accommodate sniping, and I don't believe PoE will change that.

1 minute ago, ADDgamer45 said:

You are right there are 0 Dmr style weapons in this game. The mags a too small and the reload times are too slow. The fire rates arent that great in dmr standards either. So they made neither dmrs nor sniper rifles with this "fix"

Fair enough. Still waiting. But for the "designated marksman" role, it's basically this or Tenora right now.

[ADDgamer45]

2 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

It might fail the mission. While you're "sniping" one enemy, ten more slip by and wreak havok. Like I said, these rifles are for long range fire support, not sniping. Semantics, I know, but I was addressing people saying this isn't a realistic way to handle sniper rifles. Basically, this game isn't built to accommodate sniping, and I don't believe PoE will change that.

Fair enough. Still waiting. But for the "designated marksman" role, it's basically this or Tenora right now.

Actually i think seer knell and sisco make better Dmrs than any of those weapons. Poe is also a lot less horde based than the normal warframe. But I i posted before damage and meta and anything else means nothing because the enemies you can kill are only in the 40s and the meta for killing eidolons will definitely not involve snipes.

[Yargami]

1 minute ago, DreamsmithJane said:

It might fail the mission. While you're "sniping" one enemy, ten more slip by and wreak havok. Like I said, these rifles are for long range fire support, not sniping. Semantics, I know, but I was addressing people saying this isn't a realistic way to handle sniper rifles. Basically, this game isn't built to accommodate sniping, and I don't believe PoE will change that.

   Obviously you don't do it in such a way that it risks the entire mission, but that's true (or should be true) of any gamestyle. There are plenty of places where charging into the level as fast as possible completes the mission, but there are also places where that can fail the mission. You should take a back-up playstyle in any mission.