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Plains of Eidolon: Sniper Review!


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27 minutes ago, ShadowFel said:

Seems good overall, though I hope that you'll reconsider the missed shots with multishot aspect.  Or even the missed shots aspect.  I don't want to be punished for finishing off an enemy with 1 shot while the multishot sails past, negating the benefit of that successful shot. 

Part of why people like Arca Scisco so much is that it doesn't lose combo with missed shots, but it gains additional combo with multishot.  Applying this aspect to Snipers could help more players get behind them, and would help us sniper-lovers enjoy using them even more.

currently if you kill with the first round there is no penalty (complete reset of combo would happen if multishot "missed"), and we gain 2 combo per shot, so losing 2 per shot on miss seems fair.

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as a fan of snipers (especially the rubico and vulkar series) i really like these changes and don't mind the reduction of zoom level (i was that guy who would replace the scope on snipers in CoD with an ACOG or reflex sight because i didn't like the x12 zoom level)

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15 minutes ago, tsubasakuroi said:

Scope sway going into the same trash can stamina went to? Good. Shame about combo duration nerfs across the board. You guys really want to force that Harkonar Scope down on us.

That Lanka charge rate nerf makes me want to vomit. No plans for changing unscoped accuracy either? Maybe they'll see some usage on the Plains but they'll just remain awkward and rarely used for the rest of the tilesets in game.

 

 

 

 

combo changes are not a nerf in any of the cases, 1 stack per 2 seconds is far better than all stacks in 2/3/4/5 seconds.

 

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4 minutes ago, Kinzuko said:

as a fan of snipers (especially the rubico and vulkar series) i really like these changes and don't mind the reduction of zoom level (i was that guy who would replace the scope on snipers in CoD with an ACOG or reflex sight because i didn't like the x12 zoom level)

Yes, but that reduction only really has a factor on CQC, Plains is going to be extremely long range, so essentially in a CoD comparison, you're taking the shot in "One Shot, One Kill" on CoD4 with a marksman rifle instead of the .50 Caliber. That's what this equates to.

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58 minutes ago, BeebopPrime said:

I'll stay with my Arca Scisco, thanks.

I'm not really a sniper fan and I don't want to discount the work DE has done so far but it's all for moot if there exist other weapons like the Arco Scisco that are better at sniping then the entirety of the sniper class.

Removing sniper sway is a good move.  It never made sense that warframes possessed of the dexterity to do insane parkour and deflect bullets would be affected by sway like a human is.

The last thing the sniper rework needs is for the sniper combo counter to be based entirely off of the Arco Scisco combo mechanic.  

If after Plains of Eidolon releases the numbers show people using Arco Scisco to snipe way more than actual snipers, this is why.

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25 minutes ago, Zeratul360 said:

Use latron

 

54 minutes ago, Sorenxoras said:

Sweet, happy to see that snipers are starting to get a little love. I'd love to see a little crit focus for them like with the bows, but they're looking good all the same.

Snipers aren't supposed to have good hip fire accuracy, it's not what snipers were made for.  

If you're looking to get sniper use in other areas, think about stealth builds for them. they would do nicely then. otherwise all that i can really think to say is that not everything is meant to work in every area. snipers are a specialized type of firearm and they were created for a very specific reason. If you're gonna be up close and personal, snipers are some of the worst guns for it.

 

First to the Latron point, Latron has a MUCH faster RoF and lower DPH than snipers. It is a very different gun. Closest thing we have is Zenith (which I love), but that is, in its own way, the hardest weapon to get. 

 

Snipers already are at a disadvantage in close quarters due to a low RoF. It would almost always be faster toy use, say, a Latron to clear a room of enemies on a traditional tile. Snipers don't need to have their close-quarters effectiveness brought down to basically null because "they are not supposed to be used in close quarters". Hell, I can basically snipe enemies with a Tigris or Plasmor. 

Snipers would still be an undesirable gun in close quarters, the don't need to be unusable. An entire class of weapons should not be so strictly enforced to such a small niche. 

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some long necessary improvements, but still some long necessary things missing.

 

so, if you add Punch-Through to all Sniper Rifles, what's special about Snipetron Series? at all? literally no point in using it anymore.
and to a lesser degree Lanka loses one of its unique facets, since anything 1m+ is almost identical in most situations. (just like how when Thrown Melee Weapons had Crits added to the Melee Attacks across the board..... Cerata lost one of its unique features and was made OBSOLETE)

everything but Lanka still can't Crit correctly - where's the Crit Chance for Aiming/hitting Weakpoints? (with ofc increasing the Crit Chance that Lanka gets to keep it as a unique advantage).

what of all Sniper Rifles have excessively bad Accuracy when hipfired? some Spread absolutely makes sense to reinforce using the Optics, but the Spread they have is very extreme.
which frankly it seems like the Spread for Sniper Rifles is divided by the Diamater, rather than Radius. if no other Weapons, at the very least Sniper Rifles should calculate Spread based on the Radius.

bonus Weakpoint Damage is actually useful unlike the garbo Bonuses most of them had before absolutely.... but Lanka and Rubico are still the only ones that have an interesting Optic Bonus?????
why don't they have their own unique traits to make them different from each other.

why is the Hit Counter still going to be based on both Timer and Hits? or at the very least why aren't the Timers pretty generous so that spamming Shots isn't how you're being encouraged to use a Sniper Rifle. i don't know about you but i've never been encouraged to spam Shots with a Sniper Rifle in past games.
losing Hits on Weapons that aren't designed for shooting as often as possible doesn't change the disconnect. it sounds like you're saying that Sniper Rifles should be used via throwing as much lead as possible and hoping it hits. yes i know it's one Tier stack rather than all. doesn't change this.

uhhh... why are Sniper Rifles considered effective until only 400m? when the other Weapons were said to be 300/600, i assumed that meant Sniper Rifles would be considered effective until 600.

 

also... why was the Ability to rotate Zoom Levels while not Aiming removed a while ago?
there was literally no reason to remove this.

 

1 hour ago, Pendragon1951 said:

One other thing if we are now going to be in a place where sniper rifles are viable they should add a kneeling and prone position as well.

for kneeling....
have you ever tried Crouching?

 

1 hour ago, GreyEnneract said:

while keeping the old scoped-in buffs for the Snipers you changed.

53 minutes ago, Samuel_sfx said:

please dont remove the damage buff on scope on my Vulkar Wraith :( i beg you...

wasn't worth keeping them, the Base Damage Optic Bonuses were literally useless. the strongest ones were like +5% Damage per Shot. totally irrelevant.

 

26 minutes ago, Oktavia said:

More importantly, from a gameplay perspective, forced inaccuracy has *no* place in a game like warframe. I'd go as far as to say snipers having it is my least favorite thing in the entire game.

you'd probably be horrified then to know that all Weapons in the game are like this (minus a few exceptions as a unique trait). to a lesser degree, though.

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1 minute ago, DrBorris said:

First to the Latron point, Latron has a MUCH faster RoF and lower DPH than snipers. It is a very different gun. Closest thing we have is Zenith (which I love), but that is, in its own way, the hardest weapon to get. 

Yeah, sadly. Zenith is the only semi automatic gun in warframe that isn't obnoxiously high fire rate with proportionally low damage, besides snipers of course. And I love it, but I'd love to use an entire category of other weapons sometimes too.

If DE is so dead set on heavily handicapping snipers, we at least deserve some alternatives, like Zenith, but at least as varied as actual snipers are. Something like Vectis just without the scope at all and no obligation to scope would be a new favorite, just like Vectis used to be one of my favorite guns before they nerfed it with the stupid sniper rework in the first place.

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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:
  •  unchanged).

  • 1 combo count removed at a time when duration runs out instead of all of them (decay vs. cooldown).

  • 1 combo count removed on miss instead of all of them

  • Additional bullets from multishot will each count as their own hits and misses in the combo counter

  • Combo duration reduced to 2 seconds for all snipers apart from Lanka which is reduced to 6

Oh God no, you really went the Sisco way... 

That's awfully antithetic to the very base concept of snipers. 

Ugh, I put it all here.. 

I mean... Seriously. Sorry for being annoyed, but there were two topics about the Sisco mechanism being introduced on snipers on the forums - one with the OP saying they wanted it, with everyone on the comments arguing that it would be a bad idea, and mine - arguing even further about how it would be a bad idea, with some pretty nice comments. 

Do you really  think to further intensify the punishment for careful shots is a good idea? If someone wants to use a weapon designed for that, where can they go, when all the snipers are designed for rapid firing? Specially when goddamn open world is coming? 

Ugh. 

 

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Not a fan of zoom level changes. They were fine as-is, and if people wanted customization you could've added mods to change them. Just pulling this one out of my &#! here, what about  a sniper-only mod that gives -50% zoom, +100% magazine size? Sniper → DMR, presto! Also, no changes to the hipfire (in)accuracy or an unscoped zoom level? Edit: No changes to the poor crit stats compared to bows?

On the Rubico specifically, why nearly double the fire rate when it's got a 5 round magazine and a 3 second reload? You can dump the mag in 1.87 seconds but then have to spend almost double that reloading? C'mon, wasn't the Cycron a good enough example of why that's a dumb idea? The fire rate on the Rubico, and all snipers really, is fine as it is at 1.5/sec. The problem across the board is the gigantic reload which has been untouched by these changes.

As someone that actually uses a sniper and actually really likes it, you're fixing the wrong things.

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For snipers it would be REALLY cool if you could just choose your own scopes for how you plan on playing.
Like an acog for cqc and a 12x for plains (make them something you craft or find if you want)

Also the combo duration drop to 2 seconds for most snipers seems like it will suck but we'll really know once PoE comes out and we get to test it.

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1 hour ago, Kikau said:

All of this looks good but the main thing I'd like to see would probably be a crit chance buff on all snipers rifles. All snipers seem to have a super low crit chance for their rate of fire and makes it to where you'll shoot an enemy but do little damage because of you not getting a crit (Plus rifles also do not have 100% multishot making it even worse sometimes). A crit chance buff would make snipers more consistent in general and overall make it more engaging to use.

I think all the changes are relatively good, but I agree with this comment. 

I think since snipers are critical weapons and you're technically always aiming for critical shots, all snipers should have a 100% chance to crit. Also, hip fire accuracy penalty needs to be compelately removed. It feels like a joke to use snipers In anything but zoom mode. 

Lastly, I think even though you're lowering the zoom levels, being that this is the first of possibly many many different plains, some very large, I think all snipers should get a level 3 and 4 zoom. Level 3 does a 6x zoom, and level 4 does a 12x zoom. I would really love to get trick shots from half way across the map, and with large plains on the way, this would be exadurated and awesome. 

Otherwise, love the punch through additions, love the sway removal that was so cancerous to have and love the headshot buff. But I personally would add back the normal damage increase to snipers when zoomed on top of the headshot buff but make it so they're not stacking. That way it gives an incentive to go for arm shots, or ball shots ;P

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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

1 combo count removed on miss instead of all of them

Additional bullets from multishot will each count as their own hits and misses in the combo counter

If that is truly the case, then hits should reward more than 1 combo count.

Maybe hits should be 2 combo counts and a headshot be 4 combo counts or something. 

 

Either way, this problem should be addressed.

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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Vectis Prime

  • First level zoom reduced from 4x to 3.5x

  • Second level zoom reduced from 10x to 6x

 

Rubico

  • First level zoom reduced from 5x to 3.5x

  • Second level zoom reduced from 12x to 6x

 

Vulkar

  • Second level zoom reduced from 6x to 4x

  • Third level zoom reduced from 12x to 8x

 

Vulkar Wraith

  • Second level zoom reduced from 6x to 4x

  • Third level zoom reduced from 12x to 8x

 

Lanka

  • Second level zoom reduced from 7x to 5x

  • Third level zoom reduced from 12x to 8x

I'll echo the concerns regarding decreased zoom: While this is a welcome change for our normally claustrophobic ground missions, reducing zoom levels to such a degree could be overly punitive for open landscapes such as the Plains. A possible compromise may be to implement three separate zoom levels for all sniper rifles, much like the Vulkar or Lanka series. Scope bonuses would be increased accordingly, although I wouldn't mind seeing a static bonus while reserving higher zoom for utility (like the Arca Scisco).

Hip-fire (unscoped) inaccuracy is still an issue. Given the otherwise specialized role of these weapons, it does not seem at all unfair to revert accuracy values to pre-rework levels. It would allow users to deal with immediate, melee-ranged threats without potentially losing a combo stack.

On the subject of the sniper's "combo meter," a duration of 2 seconds does seem quite short. This is generally not a problem for "horde" missions, such as survival or defense; however, there lulls in combat during "slower" exterminate, sabotage, and rescue missions. It hardly seems sustainable that enemies need to spawn at an average rate of one per two seconds to avoid penalizing a sniper's combo counter, particularly when health and armor scaling at high levels make it difficult for a zero-combo sniper rifle to cleanly kill. In this case, it may be preferable to increase combo duration, or standardize combo counters across all sniper rifles so that they can hit their maximum combo meters within a few (say, 5) shots.

Multishot penalties to the combo counter are also worrisome. If I were to snipe an enemy, causing Split Chamber to either impact its corpse or hit the ground, would I not gain - or worse, lose - a stack? This seems antithetical to the "one shot, one kill" philosophy of sniper rifles, especially because it is the only firearm class that needs to "build up" to its highest damage potential. It may be best if multishot had no effect - positive or negative - upon the combo meter.

Lastly, we should touch upon ammo recovery. Beyond single-use restores, how will snipers replenish their ammunition? Would a sniper need to physically move to the mission location to obtain his or her drops? Is this feasible for longer or tougher encounters, in which a sniper is more likely to run out of ammo? (Note that one's combo meter would also decay while moving to pick up loot.) Perhaps sniper rifles should have a percentile chance to restore ammo upon landing a headshot, with reductions in the efficacy of ammo restores or mutation mods to compensate.

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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

  • Additional bullets from multishot will each count as their own hits and misses in the combo counter

You gotta love making rng screw your work. 

Great having multishot bullets I didn't control go through bodies and "miss" and screw the combo without any possible control. 

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