so.....how long are we going to ignore cheese mechanics?

[Twistedsparkle]

look... I dont want to be the guy who is "ruining everyones fun"

but even you guys must admit there are so many ways to make this game unbelievably trivial

and in my opinion 2 of the worst offenders are the slide meta and the current existing stealth abilities and effects

I know Im gonna get so much hate for saying this
but I think they need to be changed

ctrl+e macro spam + slash procs + range + maiming strikes + rivens and you got yourself a weapon that can destroy entire rooms (have you seen the 21m scoliac vids yet? yeah! no kidding!)
and its not low level niche either... its scales all the way up to insane levels 200+ and more especially with stealth multipliers which I dont even know why exist

why are slide attacks so powerful anyway? youd think that the cool combo moves would be the best way to take down enemies but nope
spin to win to your hearts content as it is

then stealth abilities and effects where everyone for whatever reason seems to give a free pass
why is it that when Im invisible I can beat the living crap out guys and they are not resisting at all? just aimlessly looking around
even without using silence mods on weapons I feel like I can just mow hordes without much penalty

sure loki has a brief moment when he has to recast invis and ivara is slowed to turtle but that doesnt make me feel any less "immortal"

I love using stealth abilities in games but in warframe I feel they are just boring because they are so easy to exploit
it literally feels like cheat mode

wow I can see the angry mob with pitchforks who are gonna lynch me verbally already S:

lets keep going

the way I personally would love to see stealth abilities in the future
is to make them more exciting by having consequences to your actions

example: youre in stealth you can still run,jump and interact with objects without any penalty
but once you start attacking your invisibility gets distorted, the more you attack the more distortion you get until you are fully visible

this way stealth would be about decisions and surgical strikes not braindead spamming until everyone is dead with you unscathed

the lost immortality could be compensated with better survivability stat wise

so.... uhm I better get to my bomb shelter

if any of you have similar feelings and opinions I would love to hear them
and of course the angry mob can leave all their hate,toxic waste,flames and disgust as well! <3 :D

heat shields up!

Edited September 29, 2017 by Twistedsparkle

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

As long as DE continues to use invincibility phases for bosses.

[Aratir]

You forgot instakills on blind enemies because of armor ignore damage so strip that too....

[KennBone]

lol really.. and where is the problem with that.. u can use those systems too. if u dont like dont use it. but dont acuse ppl bcs they like play like that.

[DrBorris]

The whole Slide attack issue is not a problem with mechanics, it is a Maiming Strike (and the Riven versions) and how it interacts with Blood Rush. For some reason someone thought having Blood Rush scale off of Maiming Strike was a good idea, so now slide attacks are by far the most damage dealing attacks in the game. Maiming Strike just needs to add its crit chance after Blood Rush and that problem would be fixed. 

 

Stealth abilities just need more to keep them from just a one button "win" ability. Ivara is fine IMO because Warframe is about speed but Ivara can only go slow, however Loki, Ash, and Octavia have issues. What if Loki was only invisible while moving? Or if Ash through Smoke Bombs that made clouds of Invisibility? Or if Octavia... uhhh... not sure where to go here. 

 

3 minutes ago, davej83 said:

lol really.. and where is the problem with that.. u can use those systems too. if u dont like dont use it. but dont acuse ppl bcs they like play like that.

But... balance is needed for any game, even a horde shooter. Look at the bigger picture, people complain about any meaningful content and how there is no "end-game", has it ever maybe crossed your mind that the reason for that is there are some things that make an "end-game" impossible? 

 

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Magician_NG said:

As long as DE continues to use invincibility phases for bosses.

No... enemy and Warframe balance are intertwined, if you mess with one you need to mess with the other simultaneously. I can say "You can't fix enemies until you fix Warframes" on a post about enemy reworks, then I can go to a post about Warframe reworks and say " you can't fix Warframes until you fix enemies". Do you see the issue here? And if someone does try to cover all bases, they are met with an army of "TL;DR".

[vvhorus]

I saw one of those videos last night and I thought to myself: "that looks like fun!" To be able to do that, it would make me play the game to find the pieces that I need to make that build...

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

18 minutes ago, _Draken_ said:

I dont think this is an issue at all, at some point you realize that if bosses dont have it right now everything would end like Phorid - ezpzlmnsqzy Tigris Prime oneshot.

 

10 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

No... enemy and Warframe balance are intertwined, if you mess with one you need to mess with the other simultaneously. I can say "You can't fix enemies until you fix Warframes" on a post about enemy reworks, then I can go to a post about Warframe reworks and say " you can't fix Warframes until you fix enemies". Do you see the issue here? And if someone does try to cover all bases, they are met with an army of "TL;DR".

Which was the point I was trying to make.  That everything between the start of a mission to a potential boss is cannon fodder.   I believe that game balance in PvE so out of control that DE doesn't care enough to fix it.  In truth, I feel that the moment DE presented operators as a combat option is the exact moment when DE declared that combat operators will be their unofficial "second pass" at PvE balance.

I have no doubts that DE will force players into situations where frames are unavailable and properly equipped/geared combat operators will be mandatory.

I'm talking beyond PoE and the night time fights with Eidolons.

Edited September 29, 2017 by (PS4)Magician_NG

[tnccs215]

16 minutes ago, davej83 said:

lol really.. and where is the problem with that.. u can use those systems too. if u dont like dont use it. but dont acuse ppl bcs they like play like that.

You understand there's a reason why DE is making us fighting titanic, horrifying beasts with a skinny and fragile emo kid instead with the walking surrogate deity? 

It's because those deities have become so powerful to make any pretense of challenge impossible without massive, generalized changes and nerfs. 

You aren't the center of the world. Some people like to feel challenged, and that feeling is unattainable through self-hinderance. It feels fake, as it is. 

And since power-freaks obviously have a monopoly on the balance of the general combat... They gotta make this so that the people who actually like a challenge don't leave for balanced games. 

Oh, and you know Dark Souls? The game that's universally recognized as "though, but fair"? It gets balance passes all the time. And it doesn't even has a weekly release of weapons. 

[-Temp0-]

As long as most trivial bosses and mini bosses (and even like 30-40% of normal enemies) will be doing the same to us as we can do to them.

Quote

then stealth abilities and effects where everyone for whatever reason seems to give a free pass
why is it that when Im invisible I can beat the living crap out guys and they are not resisting at all?

Someone clealy never fought Jackal or Razorback while being invivible because that mo*o will perfectly target you regardless and then stunlock you to death or throw you in the pit. And it's just one example.

Quote

No... enemy and Warframe balance are intertwined

Yes and most bosses are chessy af. They just stunlock you to death or carpet bomb everything around or just leave their vulnerable spot to shoot for a 0,5 second window like Vay Hek while flying around on a spartic, absolutely insane and untrackable trajectory. And with all of that you need to shoot him in the face.

And mst of those bosses never changed since release. Most people forgot how actually awful it feels fighting Vay Hek, Zanuka or other bosses but if you will try to do that with your favourite weapons and warframes instead you will know the real pain in this game. Fighting most with almost no powers and using slow firing weapons and especially snipers that supposed to be one of the strongest weapons are totally re**ed.

This game is actually only borderline playable only with warframe's powers and strong weapons with the amount of crp ai can throw at the players. In no other game have I seen this bs before, there's absolutely insane amount of stunlocks, aoe damage and cc going for the ai as well as against it.

Quote

I have no doubts that DE will force players into situations where frames are unavailable and properly equipped/geared combat operators will be mandatory.

And everyone will hate those moments and will not want to play missions at all lmao. Just like Kuva now.

People didn't join warframe to play as crppy kids. There's loads of games that did "no or almost no powers run and gun" better, Destiny and Borderlands are only the closest two.

Edited September 29, 2017 by -Temp0-

[Duduminador]

Agree with everything in this thread. I wanted to see the cheese leave this game in every way, more than most, indiferently, without exceptions. What is worse is, these things started to pile up on Warframe... remove maiming strike and the same result can be achieved with only blood rush and organ shatter. Abilities stand in a similar problem, World on Fire, Mend & Maim, Sound Quake and Octavia's unreasonable damage return mechanics.

But I've come to accept that... that ship has sailed... unless the player count starts getting affected (droping) and it starts to become obvious that the cheese is at fault, the devs won't lift one finger about it.

Nobody ever believes that imbalance hurts a game untill it's too late to revert the damage. That a certain MMO has died becase there wasn't a point in making another character besides the "archer", or because there wasn't a point in making another in that other game besides the monk, for one skill. Or that fighter in certain MMO because no other class could beat it on pvp... even then there are still people blind enough not to see these, despite of the fact that there aren't other culprits.

There is a light of hope tho. The devs are taking a serious look at snipers for instance, if they do start taking such a serious eye before introducing mechanics that can potentialy pile up the meta, and just once in a while give do a balance pass, it can be fixed.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Duduminador

[.Zel]

30 minutes ago, _Draken_ said:

that does feel like cheating

i personally haven't even touched melee in so many months but i used to do it without a macro, my wrist ended up hurting and i feel the pain now when i tap in games like Osu(can't even last sometimes in 6* maps cause of it), But i'm only in my late teens so it can heal. Some of the other players though are in their 30's or even 40's, Brozime uses it just to avoid any injuries like that.

As for the topic at hand, ye cheese mechanics does make players be lazy and take the fun out of it but it kind of goes in 2 ways. Sometimes people don't play for fun and they just want the newest item or get enough resource for something, as such they find the quickest way to do the mission where they can obtain what they're looking for especially since we basically have been doing the same types of missions for years now.

Edited September 29, 2017 by .Zel

[letir]

Maiming strike is cornerstone of sliding builds. Remove/change that mod, and problem will be solved.

[-Temp0-]

8 minutes ago, letir said:

Maiming strike is cornerstone of sliding builds. Remove/change that mod, and problem will be solved.

Don't forget to give everyone who owes one like 500p if you do so lmao.

It's probably one of the rarest mods now. The drop rate was so low people used to get 1-2 compared to 5 and more others rare acolyte mods.

[tnccs215]

9 minutes ago, letir said:

Maiming strike is cornerstone of sliding builds. Remove/change that mod, and problem will be solved.

There's more cheese beyond maiming strike. 

[Recel]

It will never happen. Not today, not at the end of Warframe as a game.

They kept adding cheesy to underwhelming enemies, weapons and warframes for years with little to no thought of balance. We have around three hundred weapons, some with multiple firing modes, thirty three frames, not counting Prime ones, each with four abilities, that is one hundred thirty two warframe powers. Than there are sentinels and pets too. And this is just "our" side of balancing, there are also hundreds of different types of enemies and their variant.
They would have to look at all this, balance numbers, rework powers and enemy skills.

And than... there are mods. How many mods are in the game? Hundreds? Closing to a thousand by now? They would also have to look at and balance a lot of those too.

This would be a lot of work; tons of work and I don't think DE will ever gather the will to do it. Especially since it would also mean less new content while they work on that. And right now that is the only holding power of Warframe. The new, shiny things to get. Once the big tap of content starts to close a lot of people will leave due to having nothing to do. They won't wait for a "new", balanced game.

[Xolgys]

that problem with the slide crit meta would be solved in my opinion if the formula of bloodrush's effect was changed. the way that works is the only reason why its so silly. without bloodrush working like this it wouldnt be nearly as good.

[DrBorris]

8 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

As long as most trivial bosses and mini bosses (and even like 30-40% of normal enemies) will be doing the same to us as we can do to them.

Someone clealy never fought Jackal or Razorback while being invivible because that mo*o will perfectly target you regardless and then stunlock you to death or throw you in the pit. And it's just one example.

Yes and most bosses are chessy af. They just stunlock you to death or carpet bomb everything around or just leave their vulnerable spot to shoot for a 0,5 second window like Vay Hek while flying around on a spartic, absolutely insane and untrackable trajectory. And with all of that you need to shoot him in the face.

And mst of those bosses never changed since release. Most people forgot how actually awful it feels fighting Vay Hek, Zanuka or other bosses but if you will try to do that with your favourite weapons and warframes instead you will know the real pain in this game. Fighting most with almost no powers and using slow firing weapons and especially snipers that supposed to be one of the strongest weapons are totally re**ed.

This game is actually only borderline playable only with warframe's powers and strong weapons with the amount of crp ai can throw at the players. In no other game have I seen this bs before, there's absolutely insane amount of stunlocks, aoe damage and cc going for the ai as well as against it.

Hm, here's a thought, Bosses are cheesy because the only way to combat cheese is with more cheese.

And honestly, most bosses are fine now. Tyl Regor, Kela, Alad V, Jackal, Hyenas, and Raptors are all fine and sometimes great bosses. However, some of their fights are boring AF because we can cheese them. Jackal is, IMO, the best designed boss in the game. However due to cheese, people can down him in under a second even in Sorties. 

Yes, Hek, Krill and SAlad V are all horrible boss fights (Krill is at least bearable), but you try to make a meaningful boss fight when things like invisibility exist. 

 

This is not even a debate like "which came first, the chicken or the egg?". First powercreep happened, then enemies started to scale to match us. And you can't fix the broken enemies without simultaneously fixing the broken Warframes. However, that is never going to happen because "if you nerf my toy I'll quit" says the guy who later says "this game needs meaningful combat". 

[KennBone]

14 minutes ago, letir said:

Maiming strike is cornerstone of sliding builds. Remove/change that mod, and problem will be solved.

remove or nerf items dont will " fix " nothing.. for those ppl who say balanced .. they talk abouth their point of view..subjetive.
challenge its when u, in any endless mision and mobs scaling alot when u cant hold them back easy and no the " cheese mech" dont work at those lvls.
 

[Rakiss]

Stealth needs to be reworked in general. Currently it's impossible for non-stealth frames and OP for invisible frames.

[BiancaRoughfin]

56 minutes ago, Twistedsparkle said:

ctrl+e macro spam + slash procs + range + maiming strikes + rivens and you got yourself a weapon that can destroy entire rooms (have you seen the 21m scoliac vids yet? yeah! no kidding!)
and its not low level niche either... its scales all the way up to insane levels 200+ and more especially with stealth multipliers which I dont even know why exist

why are slide attacks so powerful anyway? youd think that the cool combo moves would be the best way to take down enemies but nope
spin to win to your hearts content as it is.

Personally i find the Bayblade playstyle to be very disgusting. I do have the Maiming Strike mod but i dont use it. Every now and then i join a mission with someone BayBlading and it irritates me. When i see them moving towards a large group of mobs, i manage to kill off most of them first so they dont have that pleasure of seeing the group as a whole go down or of topping in the scoreboard at the end.

1 hour ago, Twistedsparkle said:

then stealth abilities and effects where everyone for whatever reason seems to give a free pass
why is it that when Im invisible I can beat the living crap out guys and they are not resisting at all? just aimlessly looking around
even without using silence mods on weapons I feel like I can just mow hordes without much penalty

sure loki has a brief moment when he has to recast invis and ivara is slowed to turtle but that doesnt make me feel any less "immortal"

I love using stealth abilities in games but in warframe I feel they are just boring because they are so easy to exploit
it literally feels like cheat mode

I dont see much issue here since most of the Warframes with Stealth capabilities are squishy. Take Loki him self for example, most of the times they get killed for being hit by some AoE that wasnt ment for them or moving in the middle of the Crossfire.
Loki`s invisibility used to be stronger as it would silence his gun sounds, now if a Loki fires a weapon wile Invisible, enemies are alerted and they will both move towards and start shooting at the location of the sound. Loki is forced to sacrifice a mod slot for augment to have his weapons silenced.

[Fallen_Echo]

Well once infinite enemy scaling and oneshot kill mechanics then they can go and remove cheese.

 

[TaylorsContraction]

I agree wholeheartedly with you op but nothing is going to change. Cheese has been around for many years now and instead of curbing it, DE has only increased the available cheese options.

You speak of level 200+ enemies, there are ways to kill en-masse level 3000 enemies, just different cheese.

 

My suggestion for stealth is give stealth a short radius around the frame (will appear as a circle on the ground around the invisible warframe indicating range). Perhaps make the range affected by power strength, the more the smaller it gets.

Enemies outside the circle cannot see the Warframe, those inside can. This would give enemies the ability to react and players would have to play a constant mini game of "stay out of my circle" (which is a sphere in actuality, circle is just visual feedback for the player). Players can go to the air and high ground to avoid detection, and perform finishers on unalerted enemies, but melee won't be as easy as it is now. I think this would be a fun balancing change, but that is just my opinion man.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

6 minutes ago, TaylorsContraction said:

Cheese has been around for many years now and instead of curbing it, DE has only increased the available cheese options.

sad but true. it seems to be a selling point and balancing takes more effort than simply piling content with added risk of alienating your playerbase.

*holds OPs hand* i'm wit u :3

1 hour ago, tnccs215 said:

You understand there's a reason why DE is making us fighting titanic, horrifying beasts with a skinny and fragile emo kid instead with the walking surrogate deity? 

It's because those deities have become so powerful to make any pretense of challenge impossible without massive, generalized changes and nerfs.

yup, that's how i interpret the coming warrior operators, too. that and giving their fashion items more relevance by makling them more prevalent in the field, thus potentially boosting respective purchases.

[g0ld3ng0d]

Warframe, the magical place where the trees bear gouda and cheddar, where spring is eternal, this beautiful season of cheese.

Agree with this post 100%. Invisibility is basically god mode, all effort is lost. It's not even cool to do spy missions. You can always make a build be about other skills than invisibility, but why would you? Don't get me wrong, stealth is cool. Killing enemies with that decisive finisher is cool. Getting through a mission without killing anyone is cool. But doing that all the time everywhere is not cool. There has to be a penalty of some sort, what it should be I have no answer for that but people on this thread have been throwing some solid ideas around.

Slide mechanics are a load of bs, nothing is quite as annoying as dudes slide-slashing around the map, killing everything while you try to master that flashy combo and for your efforts you get... absolutely nothing! The slide attack like a leap attack should be about starting your assault, gaining momentum and closing the distance. Then going into your combo. That's how it's supposed to work. But no, instead slide is the most effective way of attacking, mindless ctrl + e and spamming e without ever learning any of the combos. What is the point of stances and unlockable combos if they are of no use? I'm pretty sure this is not what the devs had in mind and it's a cardinal sin that spin and win still exists. Just 100% pure lazy.

[BlackCoMerc]

2 hours ago, -Temp0- said:

As long as most trivial bosses and mini bosses (and even like 30-40% of normal enemies) will be doing the same to us as we can do to them.

Someone clealy never fought Jackal or Razorback while being invivible because that mo*o will perfectly target you regardless and then stunlock you to death or throw you in the pit. And it's just one example.

Yes and most bosses are chessy af. They just stunlock you to death or carpet bomb everything around or just leave their vulnerable spot to shoot for a 0,5 second window like Vay Hek while flying around on a spartic, absolutely insane and untrackable trajectory. And with all of that you need to shoot him in the face.

And mst of those bosses never changed since release. Most people forgot how actually awful it feels fighting Vay Hek, Zanuka or other bosses but if you will try to do that with your favourite weapons and warframes instead you will know the real pain in this game. Fighting most with almost no powers and using slow firing weapons and especially snipers that supposed to be one of the strongest weapons are totally re**ed.

This game is actually only borderline playable only with warframe's powers and strong weapons with the amount of crp ai can throw at the players. In no other game have I seen this bs before, there's absolutely insane amount of stunlocks, aoe damage and cc going for the ai as well as against it.

And everyone will hate those moments and will not want to play missions at all lmao. Just like Kuva now.

People didn't join warframe to play as crppy kids. There's loads of games that did "no or almost no powers run and gun" better, Destiny and Borderlands are only the closest two.

You are not wrong.

But enemy cheese exists because of Frame cheese.

BOTH NEED TO GO.

We need a balance pass on.the entire game.