so.....how long are we going to ignore cheese mechanics?

[Aechmea]

i think you guys should read this

 

[Fallen_Echo]

6 hours ago, Crimson-Tenno said:

i think you guys should read this

 

Thats a good one, they buffed 10 weapon and half of them became useful and nerf hammered 3 of them into oblivion. Well expect the tonkor, its still used but not by many.

[Volinus7]

Warframe is a mismatch of powercreep and dumb difficulty design for years, your concern is nothing new and like many previous threads it will get ignored and buried in a flash. Only a handful of players care about the gameplay anyway.

 

If you progress far enough in WF to the point you notice the wonkiness, at that point you are likely to have enough sunk cost fallacy from all those grinding to ignore the problems you noticed. This is the core design that sustains all the problems in WF. Of course there's a slight chance that you'll stop playing completely too lol.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Volinus7

[Krazzie]

16 hours ago, W3zeer said:

So why are those rushers then getting upset when I take my time and collect the loot, scan plants, open containers, etc. while they are waiting at the extraction? Because then it's suddenly waisting everyone's time. i totally agree with @TheBrsrkr, if one player can remove his entire group from participating in the game (even on high level missions), the tool he does that with needs to go. And I'm sorry to tell you, in the end, DE seems to agree with that, just ask Ash or the Simulor. So changes will happen, might take a while, but as soon as a "tactic" has become so dominant that noone without it can even do anything but follow the spammer in a public match, the days of that tool are numbered. Also, I don't know, why ppl always compare "let me play the way I want" to "let me play at all". Warframe will never be really balanced, there's too much unique stuff and too much content added all the time. But there's nothing wrong with a baseline that noone should be able to mindlessly remove all enemies from the game.

And ppl honestly complain about Trinity about being op...

If you agree with TheBrsrkr. Then I guess you agree that one person should be able to dictate how Everyone should run on a pug run.  Don't take one liner out of context.  In a pug run, it doesn't matter if people get mad.  If they do, just tell them to pug off, as I've and many people here as stated.  If you join a pug run and you don't like it well though luck, move on or find another party.  Keep moving on until you find a party you like or create one.  No one has the right to force feed people how they should play, as long its not hacking.  And even if DE agrees, until DE changes, when it happen it'll happen.  DE has done this multiple times in the past, trying to balance the game.  Which is fine.

I remember a time when survival just came out.  Endless hordes just keep on coming, and it was fun.  DE neft it, so that it'll be easier; more manageable for the lesser skilled players.  And ever since then DE has been trying to create mobs spawn, just the right amount to not overwhelm the players.  And it was the players on top who teaches the players below how to not get overwhelm.  It's always better to have players who come up with new strategy than having everyone play like robots.  If you're afraid of something being dominating the game, I guess you ought to tell the community not to teach players anything.  Its almost like telling a intelligent person that he/she needs dumb down to their level.

 

There's difference in forcing and seeing a problem.  Addressing is problem is fine, forcing how ever is not.

 

BS'n: DE should just kill off all frame skills and go back to before the reworks of 2.0.  There's no cheesing then, less anyway.

[TheBrsrkr]

7 minutes ago, Krazzie said:

If you agree with TheBrsrkr. Then I guess you agree that one person should be able to dictate how Everyone should run on a pug run.  

This is literally the opposite of what I've been telling you, and is in fact what you are trying to do. 

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

WAR IS PEACE 

SAYING ONE GUY SHOULDN'T CONTROL GAMEPLAY FOR EVERYONE ELSE IS CONTROLLING EVERYONE ELSE

8 minutes ago, Krazzie said:

.  In a pug run, it doesn't matter if people get mad.  If they do, just tell them to pug off, as I've and many people here as stated.  If you join a pug run and you don't like it well though luck, move on or find another party.  Keep moving on until you find a party you like or create one.  No one has the right to force feed people how they should play, as long its not hacking.  

These two things are mutually exclusive. 

[DatDarkOne]

12 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

WAR IS PEACE 

SAYING ONE GUY SHOULDN'T CONTROL GAMEPLAY FOR EVERYONE ELSE IS CONTROLLING EVERYONE ELSE

WTF?!?!  If you were trying to make some grand philosophical statement, then you failed horribly.  That just doesn't make any sense in any form that I tried to frame it in.  

Edited October 4, 2017 by DatDarkOne

[Krazzie]

9 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

SAYING ONE GUY SHOULDN'T CONTROL GAMEPLAY FOR EVERYONE ELSE IS CONTROLLING EVERYONE ELSE

4man public Squad:

Player1: Play the way he/she likes to play

Player2: Play the way he/she likes to play

Player3: Play the way he/she likes to play

Player4: Play the way he/she likes to play

I don't see anyone controlling the game.

Your standard my guess:

Player1: Play the way he/she likes to play (controlling the game)

Player2: Play the way he/she likes to play (controlling the game)

Player3: Play the way he/she likes to play (controlling the game)

Player4: Play the way he/she likes to play (controlling the game)

And thats the difference lies.

[TheBrsrkr]

14 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

WTF?!?!  If you were trying to make some grand philosophical statement, then you failed horribly.  That just doesn't make any sense in any form that I tried to frame it in.  

A quote from a 1984. Pay it no mind. 

 

10 minutes ago, Krazzie said:

4man public Squad:

Player1: Play the way he/she likes to play

Player2: Play the way he/she likes to play

Player3: Play the way he/she likes to play

Player4: Play the way he/she likes to play

I don't see anyone controlling the game.

That's because you didn't make any distinction on what the players are doing. If 4 players want to play melee, there's no problem. If one guy wants melee while the other are shooting, he'll have a problem, but that's a problem with the mechanics of melee against the mechanics of guns. He'll be mad, but there's nothing to be done about it. Furthermore, if he's quick enough (or if their guns are slow enough) he can still have fun hacking and slashing away. Even if fully geared teams you still end up using melee at least a few times, even if you didn't really need to. That's how guns work, and that's how melee works.

Ability spam is completely different from these because abilities are vastly more powerful and effective than  guns. Being this, they were simply not meant to be spammed room after room. So everyone with guns can't play the way that they want, because a wiped room is a wiped room. There's nothing to do in an empty room. You move on to the next room, and that one is empty too, thanks to one guy. Repeat till extraction. What your list should look like is this:

4man public Squad:

Player1: Play the way he/she likes to play, with moves that wipe the room 

Player2: Follows player 1 hoping for a kill. 

Player3: Follows player 1 hoping for a kill. 

Player4: Follows Player 1 hoping for a kill. 

 

[(PSN)Crixus044]

About slide attacks. I made a post about how there should be a delay for allowing only 2 slides per second to stop the slide spam. Instantly, whiney babies replied how I am crazy for ruining their spam system, especially when I brought up macros. Nowadays, people slide into walls with a whip for 10 hours straight in a survival, using macros, and call themselves endgame players. Fighting endgame level enemies use to be something to brag about when it came to showing off your skills and building smarts, but nowadays, it's just a participation award of patience. I can understand your gripe with cheesy tactics, but removing them is not the answer. Removing something has already been proven detrimental to the community with the Viver and Nullifier updates.We must now learn how to mitigate, not stop. With slides, having a timer of sorts IS necessary to stop the non-sense tactics players do, since it is proven to be just as bad as any other cheese you can think of.

Now for stealth, I think if enemies acted like real enemies and decided to melee in random directions whenever they were struck by us in invis, that would really be cool and would make stealth more tactical.If they were shot by an invisible guy, they'd start shooting at the direction of the shot. Thus, stealth will lose it's immortality, YET this opens up new tactics, like using invisible guys to draw enemy aggro, thus I say it's actually a good thing.

Covert Lethality on dagger is considered cheesy, but considering it only works on finishers, I can give it a pass.

Anyways, that's my two cents.

[Krazzie]

1 minute ago, TheBrsrkr said:

4man public Squad:

Player1: Play the way he/she likes to play, with moves that wipe the room 

Player2: Follows player 1 hoping for a kill. 

Player3: Follows player 1 hoping for a kill. 

Player4: Follows Player 1 hoping for a kill. 

 

I'd figured you'll say this, even if Player1, doesn't wipe the room.  The other 3 will Control the game.  Therefore you'll always have a Player who is controlling the Game.  So in your case, when is player not controlling the game?  At that point I guess they all just don't do anything, so in a way none of them are controlling the game.  Every time a player deviates, then that player is controlling the game.  It just doesn't make sense.

 

[DatDarkOne]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Now for stealth, I think if enemies acted like real enemies and decided to melee in random directions whenever they were struck by us in invis, that would really be cool and would make stealth more tactical.If they were shot by an invisible guy, they'd start shooting at the direction of the shot. Thus, stealth will lose it's immortality, YET this opens up new tactics, like using invisible guys to draw enemy aggro, thus I say it's actually a good thing.

This wouldn't bother me at all and I'd welcome it.  It would bring some much needed tactical aspects to my solo play and make group play even more interesting when I do them.  I wouldn't whine at all.  I would still just take my little Huntress, adapt, and have more fun while doing it.  :D

[-YoRHa-]

3 minutes ago, Krazzie said:

I'd figured you'll say this, even if Player1, doesn't wipe the room.  The other 3 will Control the game.  Therefore you'll always have a Player who is controlling the Game.  So in your case, when is player not controlling the game?  At that point I guess they all just don't do anything, so in a way none of them are controlling the game.  Every time a player deviates, then that player is controlling the game.  It just doesn't make sense.

 

Just want to add my 2 cents, but i think it is more about which player is controlling another player's gaming experience by a large margin, when the only thing that should control the gaming experience is the developers mechanics and difficulties.

Warframe unfortunately does not have any enemy-side mechanics that discourage lone wolfing, and lacks true co-op enforcing/encouraging mechanics. The Left 4 Dead franchise has enemies like this called Special Infected, and other games have similar mechanics as well. Warframe used to have something like this i think, but instead of balancing the enemy and polishing the mechanics, they removed it.

[TheBrsrkr]

17 minutes ago, Krazzie said:

I'd figured you'll say this, even if Player1, doesn't wipe the room.  The other 3 will Control the game.  Therefore you'll always have a Player who is controlling the Game.  So in your case, when is player not controlling the game? 

4 people controlling the game is exactly what is supposed to happen, because that way no one  is CONTROLLING THE GAME. If I get to kill stuff, you get to kill stuff and  the other 2 guys get to kill stuff, where's the control, exactly? 

[DatDarkOne]

19 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

4 people controlling the game is exactly what is supposed to happen, because that way no one  is CONTROLLING THE GAME. If I get to kill stuff, you get to kill stuff and  the other 2 guys get to kill stuff, where's the control, exactly? 

Now that you mentioned you've been reading George Orwell's book.  I'm starting to see where this deluded logic is coming from.  I call it deluded because you seem to be over looking one very important thing.  Randomness.  In the situations you are trying to create/want it is not taking into account the very nature of Public groups.  They are completely random.  There are times when you will get like minded individuals, and times when you will not.  For you to get the results that you are hoping to get, you must first remove the X Factor.  X Factor is the randomness and/or the unknown.  

Now having said that, how do you plan to remove the randomness from a random public mission?  The game already has built in ways to somewhat achieve your goal.  It's called Friends Only Mode.  That way you can still have a somewhat random selection of people while also greatly increasing the chances of them being of like mind with you.  

Side note:  You do know what that book was about, right?

Edited October 4, 2017 by DatDarkOne
grammar corrections

[(PSN)Crixus044]

28 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This wouldn't bother me at all and I'd welcome it.  It would bring some much needed tactical aspects to my solo play and make group play even more interesting when I do them.  I wouldn't whine at all.  I would still just take my little Huntress, adapt, and have more fun while doing it.  :D

Lol stealth does need some tactical play to it, and enemies need to stop having the IQ of a cat on LSD.

[TheBrsrkr]

Just now, DatDarkOne said:

Now that you mentioned you been reading George Orwell's book.  I'm starting to see where this deluded logic is coming from.  I call it deluded because you seem to be over looking one very important thing.  Randomness.  It the situations you are trying to create/want it is not taking into account the very nature of Public groups.  They are completely random.  There are times when you will get like minded individuals, and times when you will not.  For you to get the results that you are hoping to get, you must first remove the X Factor.  X Factor is the randomness and/or the unknown.  

Uh, no? 

Bring whatever you want, I don't particularly care until it affects me. 

It affects me. 

I care. 

Seriously, randomness doesn't mean that you should just be able to stop anyone from playing. That's not how games work. Sure, if you're a 1337 hax0r you can kill everyone before me with a Soma Prime or something equally ridiculous and I'd be miffed, but the fact is you killed them because you were better than me in some way. Skill, modding, weaponry, tactics, doesn't matter. I saw it happening and I wasn't good enough to keep up. Woo. No one cares. 

Spamming, though, is completely different. You're not fighting anything. You're just running and pressing whatever number of the day it is to kill everything. Nothing to do with skill or tactics. Nothing to do with anything at all. You just walk in, press button, wipe room, move on. This should not be allowed. This is not good gameplay. Simple as that. There's nothing random here. 

7 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Now having said that, how do you plan to remove the randomness from a random public mission?  The game already has built in ways to somewhat achieve your goal.  It's called Friends Only Mode.  That way you can still have a somewhat random selection of people while also greatly increasing the chances of them being of like mind with you. 

The point is not ransom players getting into random missions, for chrissakes, it's the fact that one player can control if all the other players  can play at all. It's not about avoiding them, it's about the system that requires avoiding them to play the game as anything besides a first person extractor. 

 

11 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

.  Side note:  You do know what that book was about, right?

Yes, but I actually thought it would be more like Animal Farm. The concept of Big Brother scares me though, especially the parts that seem to apply to society today. 

[DatDarkOne]

7 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

The concept of Big Brother scares me though, especially the parts that seem to apply to society today. 

^This scares you but yet you are advocating the following:

9 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

The point is not ransom players getting into random missions, for chrissakes, it's the fact that one player can control if all the other players  can play at all. It's not about avoiding them, it's about the system that requires avoiding them to play the game as anything besides a first person extractor. 

You do know that the public mode is a reflection of a free society.  Now for you to have any parts of your idea, those freedoms will have to be taken away.  Once that happens you will have the thing you say you fear: The Big Brother.  

The only way for you to have what you say you want is to surrender to that which you also fear.  You can do that if you want.  But you'll only see or hear of me giving up mine when I have cold dead hands.  

[ShogunGunshow]

There's some goofy stuff that gets broken in Warframe, but that's the natural result of having an abundance of powerful tools that actually matter. Like, in your example, a good reach Weapon + maximum reach riven + Primed Reach? Yeah, I'd expect that to hit a whole room.

When the alternative is reach mods with 20% max, when our build possibilities are curtailed in the pursuit of 'balance' over fun, that's gonna be the day I put Warframe behind me. If I find someone cheesing a mission and I'm not having fun in it (it's rare I see actual cheese, by the by), I leave the mission and start another. It's that simple. 

[TheBrsrkr]

Just now, DatDarkOne said:

^This scares you but yet you are advocating the following:

A game in which 4 players gank some reasonably balanced AI is not the same as trying to make everyone think the same. Reason being is that what I propose gives everyone the chance to play. You, well, don't. 

Again  I must repeat this, why should I player, hitting 1 key, be able to control ALL spawned enemies? 

3 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

:You do know that the public mode is a reflection of a free society.  Now for you to have any parts of your idea, those freedoms will have to be taken away.  Once that happens you will have the thing you say you fear: The Big Brother. 

Well I'm sorry, but the freedom to take away agency from other players is usually referred to as griefing and usually frowned upon in games. Everyone should be able to play as they like wherever possible. This is simply not feasible as long as room clearing abilities that can be spammed to infinity exist. 

[DatDarkOne]

This has definitely gone into one delta ten tango territory.  I'm out.  

[Krazzie]

9 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

4 people controlling the game is exactly what is supposed to happen, because that way no one  is CONTROLLING THE GAME. If I get to kill stuff, you get to kill stuff and  the other 2 guys get to kill stuff, where's the control, exactly? 

7 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Bring whatever you want, I don't particularly care until it affects me. 

It affects me. 

I care. 

Seriously, randomness doesn't mean that you should just be able to stop anyone from playing. That's not how games work. Sure, if you're a 1337 hax0r you can kill everyone before me with a Soma Prime or something equally ridiculous and I'd be miffed, but the fact is you killed them because you were better than me in some way. Skill, modding, weaponry, tactics, doesn't matter. I saw it happening and I wasn't good enough to keep up. Woo. No one cares. 

Spamming, though, is completely different. You're not fighting anything. You're just running and pressing whatever number of the day it is to kill everything. Nothing to do with skill or tactics. Nothing to do with anything at all. You just walk in, press button, wipe room, move on. This should not be allowed. This is not good gameplay. Simple as that. There's nothing random here. 

 

Controlling = Not Controlling? How much killing = too much killing?  Do I have to keep count how each person kills?  I have to move the same pace of others?  My frame moves twice as fast do I have to downgrade?  As long as people get to kill stuff.  I can just kill everything and leave a few for them to kill that should be fine right? I'm not even spamming or micro-ing my set of skills.  No, because then it'll start effecting you.  Wow, I really, really have to watch what I am are doing.  If I do just a little amount more than you and the other person.  Then that means I am effect you and therefore I am controlling the game.  If you are not doing enough, does that mean you're effecting me? Straw Man

 

When you find 4 individual who are not relative who think, talk, walk, and do everything the exactly the same.  Then at that time, yeah you are right.  And I'll even give you the Chaos theory throw in there for you.

 

Just now, DatDarkOne said:

This has definitely gone into one delta ten tango territory.  I'm out.  

I'm there with you.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

Just now, TheBrsrkr said:

This is simply not feasible as long as room clearing abilities that can be spammed to infinity exist. 

This is actually another interesting thing you bring up, but my response is this. If you're using such a powerful combo, what are you doing going into a mission that you can wipe clean with a single button press? You should be fighting higher level enemies that actually challenge that combo. But, this of course takes forever to reach since only place to find that is endurance running missions. Thus the solution is not removing the powerful tactic, it should be finding you a mission that you can quickly get to that would actually handle such a powerful combo. Now when it comes to slide spam, I watched a video of a team of for people setting the World Record for a survival at 10 hours. What were they doing? Sliding into a wall with a macro and a secura lecta. Also, they were using a nekros and a banshee. So it's a combination of MITIGATING these cheesy tactics as well as finding missions that can challenge our power. @DatDarkOne knows what I'm talking about. Him and I conversed on this before and we both agree we need higher level missions with more intense scaling.

[o.0-]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Thus the solution is not removing the powerful tactic, it should be finding you a mission that you can quickly get to that would actually handle such a powerful combo. Now when it comes to slide spam, I watched a video of a team of for people setting the World Record for a survival at 10 hours. What were they doing?

I agree that specifically cited cheese needs to be dealt with, and as well as how initial balancing and scaling starts against our static stats anywhere in the solar system. And as endless missions scale up over time, have different rates of scaling from Mercury to Sedna and so on.

I made a long post on an idea earlier in this thread:

 

[TheBrsrkr]

16 minutes ago, Krazzie said:

Controlling = Not Controlling? How much killing = too much killing?  Do I have to keep count how each person kills?  I have to move the same pace of others?  My frame moves twice as fast do I have to downgrade?  As long as people get to kill stuff.  I can just kill everything and leave a few for them to kill that should be fine right? I'm not even spamming or micro-ing my set of skills.  No, because then it'll start effecting you.  Wow, I really, really have to watch what I am are doing.  If I do just a little amount more than you and the other person.  Then that means I am effect you and therefore I am controlling the game.  If you are not doing enough, does that mean you're effecting me? Straw Man

Read my post again. Slowly. 

Now point out to me exactly where I said everything needs to be exactly the same and everyone has to be going exactly at the same pace. I, quite literally, wrote exactly tly the opposite situation, that included someone dominating the game  leaving me to do nothing, and how it was NOT a problem in that case because that player had the tools, skills and tactics to do what he did. It's right here. 

51 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

. 

Seriously, randomness doesn't mean that you should just be able to stop anyone from playing. That's not how games work. Sure, if you're a 1337 hax0r you can kill everyone before me with a Soma Prime or something equally ridiculous and I'd be miffed, but the fact is you killed them because you were better than me in some way. Skill, modding, weaponry, tactics, doesn't matter. I saw it happening and I wasn't good enough to keep up. Woo. No one cares. 

At least read my entire post before you quote it. 

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

You should be fighting higher level enemies that actually challenge that combo. But, this of course takes forever to reach since only place to find that is endurance running missions. Thus the solution is not removing the powerful tactic, it should be finding you a mission that you can quickly get to that would actually handle such a powerful combo

While I agree that either we need to be scaled down or they need to scaled up, this doesn't really solve the issue with ability spam.

First off, what happens to all the other content? You'd just take a dump on the entries starchart and the Void, which we are kinda doing already. Next, what about abilities that only really work as spam for starchart content? Ember comes to mind. World on fire isn't that good, but enemies on Uranus are very bad (I think it was Jupiter. DE mixed up all those planets. Next the game is the reward you get. How do you split it? Will it be the same reward for everyone? Will the bigger contributor get more.? Etc. 

Finally, people would still play the low level missions because that's really just who they are. It's what they're used to dong and even if they don't stick with it they'll come back eventually for a when. 

[Krazzie]

9 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Read my post again. Slowly. 

Now point out to me exactly where I said everything needs to be exactly the same and everyone has to be going exactly at the same pace. I, quite literally, wrote exactly tly the opposite situation, that included someone dominating the game  leaving me to do nothing, and how it was NOT a problem in that case because that player had the tools, skills and tactics to do what he did. It's right here.

Reread everyone's and your post again. Slowly.  And see why people disagree with you, and why you get the reply you did.  That is my answer to your answers.