Plains of Eidolon: Facts & Fundamentals of Focus 2.0

[NightBlitz]

8 minutes ago, Gene_Freak said:

The operator needs to have mobility that can rival a frame - maybe not the exact same slides and jumps, but something that can allow an operator to move rapidly and freely. Ghostly flying? Tribes-y jetting and skiing? Something more practical than trying to spam void dash, at least.

you know what could be fun? if you could press , say, 1 (as we currently have nothing in that spot while in operator mode, might change with PoE) andthe operator could use something like the scrambus's hoverskates. it'd offer a type of mobility that frames dont have, maybe it could ignore ground attacks (like the tar from tar moas) and go over water, but not over open space( cus its hovering, not flying, so you'd remain maybe a foot or so off the ground while using them).

tho it would require a fair amount of work, but if they could maybe work on it after PoE drops, itd be pretty cool imo

[SordidDreams]

I'm utterly confused by DE's decision-making. People don't like having to play operators. Let's make them play operators more!

Guys... The whole operator idea was a huge mistake. The best thing you can do is get rid of it entirely. You used a story quest to give us the operator, you can use a story quest to take it  away again. The ship gets attacked, the operator is mortally wounded, and the only option is to permanently transfer their consciousness into a warframe (using Orokin Continuity or whatever Rell did to lock himself inside Harrow), leaving their dead physical body behind. Boom, no more operator, and you can get back to working on the things we actually play this game for.

9 minutes ago, Gene_Freak said:

Conceptually, having a system that takes advantage of bouncing between your frame and operator isn't a bad idea. The biggest problem there is that playing as the operator is a genuinely miserable experience. If the operator's gameplay was its own completely unrelated game I would still think it was awkward and clumsy, but having the fluid, relentless frame gameplay to contrast it with makes it feel so much worse. The operator needs to have mobility that can rival a frame - maybe not the exact same slides and jumps, but something that can allow an operator to move rapidly and freely. Ghostly flying? Tribes-y jetting and skiing? Something more practical than trying to spam void dash, at least.

But then what's the point? The problem with the operator is that it's squishy, weak, and slow. The obvious solution is to make it tough, powerful, and fast, which is what DE seems to be going for. The reason this obvious solution is wrong is that we already have characters that are tough, powerful, and fast. They're called warframes. No matter what they do, playing one will keep you from playing the other, and as a result will be a detriment to the game.

[phoenix1992]

Oh dear, god I am starting to enter full cynical mode. I feel really sorry towards the person that has written the main OP - be it @[DE]Rebecca or anyone else, because... I like Warframe, and Iike the Warframe team, but this which was written is something that happens only if you have low awareness about how WF works to begin with. 

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Your Banshee is under heavy Corpus fire - a barrage of Supra projectiles are coming toward you. As a Naramon Tenno, you engage Transference and enter Operator Mode and Void Blast an enemy with a Disarming Blast. Your beam has a high chance to disarm all enemies unlucky enough to be caught in its path! You return to your Warframe and make quick work of the now weaponless enemies.

First of all, if you get surrounded from *everywhere* it is your own bloody fault. This means you have 0 map awareness, and the foresight of a Kubrow - the point, when fighting against any faction is *not to get surrounded* from the very start. 
Second, versus corpus that tactic will be as useful as a chocolate hammer - When was the last time the person that wrote this played against Corpus units post level 20 - You can't use focus in nulifier shield, you can't disarm Fusion Moas, Bursas and Ofspreys - and even if you blind/disorient them, they will still smash you down with the the AoE capabilities they have.  You know, I totally want to go in Operator mode again't bloody Bursas.
Or versus Grineer bombards, Nox and Heyka masters.
Or versus the Infested status extravaganza.

Do you... even realize how many things have you given to the enemies in order to prevent us (the players/Warframes/Tenno) from turning enemy units into road kill (and then you gave us rivens, but mkay another topic for another day).

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Your Mesa is going to work, protecting your defense point from hordes of Grineer. Suddenly, your Frame runs out of energy! With no Energy Restores equipped you quickly switch to your Operator and Void Dash onto your objective.This creates a bubble where you land in which you and your teammates can charge up quickly to 'Make some Peace'.

 

Same as the previous one - what the hell are you doing to even get in that situation? If you are with a heavy energy hungry build, you would be more than aware when you are overextending and that even current Zenurik can't save you from the good old ability spam.
So in this "oopsie" situation that will be totally your fault you will drop energy for... Mesa? You mean one of the frames that are in the "toogle ability" family and can not use mos energy restores while in Peace maker? Cool. 
You also totally want to go in your Operator mode on top of the deff objective, so every enemy that already has aggro on the objective will hit you, without even aiming at you.
(also again the point versus infested)

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Your Atlas is rocking out on a mobile defense mission, when suddenly you a nasty Nox comes your way! Switching to your Operator, you Void Dash through the enemy, sundering some of his armor and crippling his damage output. You remain in Void Mode near your teammates to grant them invisibility as they deal with the enemy from the safety of the shadows.

 

While we are joking about Rhino being a ballerina (due to his movement speed), saying that you will play a "face to face" frame and you will... not play at all in order to be a support for your team. Sure. (hope that an AoE does not hit you, Operators are not immune to CC. Yet).

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Loki—alone in the Plains—is doing as he pleases. He decides to play a bit of a trick on some Grineer Tusk units he detects nearby. By slipping into Transference his operator cloaks himself ; each second spent cloaked significantly increases the damage of the next attack. After enough sneaking, the Operator fires and the Grineer are no more.

 

This will be rather rude.
Have you ever played Loki? Not to mention the exact sub type of "melee yolo swag Invis Loki"? Are we on the same page about what kind of Warframe and play style you are trying to fit in?

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Your Rhino is strong, and together with the Saryn in your squad you're pummeling droves of enemies in a Survival mission. Time marches forth and so it goes, your body count climbing higher and higher. As you check out your HUD you see Saryn is taking heavy damage. With impeccable agility, you begin Transference and Void Dash through her to grant complete immunity to damage for a limited time. When you return to your Rhino, you Stomp, and the killing continues. So it goes.

As a lot of people mentioned, this won't happen like that.

"My strong Rhino" will just play *charge trough the enemies while waving War and yelling profanities", in  full Iron Skin, and so on.
Because he is Rhino - the frame for people that are more than willing to run trough spy missions, ignoring any lasers and traps while listening to the desperate team cries and classical music.

This situation also falls under "Yeah I am totally going to try operator Dash in a long survival, while Bombards, Nulifiers and god knows what else is taking shots at me". Because this is how you designed the enemies.

Guys...Steve and the development team. The QA team, the Community communication team. Are you sure, we are playing the same game while pursuing the same goals? Or all that "stream" worthy moments have gotten the best of you?
We love Warframe, we love the team and idea behind it. We are inspired and hyped from what you guys do. But please... this is so... not the game that you have been making the last 4 years.
 

[Hory94]

3 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Guys... The whole operator idea was a huge mistake. The best thing you can do is get rid of it entirely. You used a story quest to give us the operator, you can use a story quest to take it  away again. The ship gets attacked, the operator is mortally wounded, and the only option is to permanently transfer their consciousness into a warframe (using Orokin Continuity or whatever Rell did to lock himself inside Harrow), leaving their dead physical body behind. Boom, no more operator, and you can get back to working on the things we actually play this game for.

As much as I hate operator gameplay and would love this to be a thing, it will never ever happen (not even as optional choice) because of how much game content was built upon existance of operators.

[22evan]

Never liked to play with the operator, it was a requirement to get kuva, now in order te get buffs and passives we are forced to use them, dont get me wrong, i like change and i like the idea of ballance but... the hole operator-focus buff is kind of risky. 

[Archwizard]

15 minutes ago, Gene_Freak said:

The operator needs to have mobility that can rival a frame - maybe not the exact same slides and jumps, but something that can allow an operator to move rapidly and freely. Ghostly flying? Tribes-y jetting and skiing? Something more practical than trying to spam void dash, at least.

I just had the image of a Kingdom Hearts-esque Wisdom Form style movement, where the Operator surfs around frictionlessly on void energy while Sprinting or Sliding, and gets a small forward dash (purely to add momentum, not a full Void Dash) when you tap Roll, possibly even getting slowly repelled away from the action while firing Void Beam.

Something that feels different from the Warframe, without being necessarily better or worse.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

OMG! Zenurik gonna rock baby!

[BornWithTeeth]

"They'll like Operators when Operators have sweet hats!"

No, Digital Extremes. We'll like Operators when they're fun to play.

"They'll like Operators when Operators give out cool buffs for Warframes!"

No, Digital Extremes. We'll like Operators when they're fun to play.

"They'll like Operators when Operators can pop out and do things like other Warframe powers (except weaker)!"

No, Digital Extremes. We'll like Operators when they're fun to play.

"They'll like Operators when they see Operators weakening huge, cool enemies!"

No, Digital Extremes. We'll like Operators when they're fun to play.

 

Guys. There is a remarkably consistent thread of feedback. Operators are not fun to play because they are slow, clunky, and annoying in their movements/controls. No amount of cosmetics, buff-granting, external powers, or invulnerability stripping will fix that one single core issue, and by now people have been telling you this for months.

 

 

Then comes this Focus rework, which reads like it was designed by someone who has seen Warframe being played, but who has not actually played it. I genuinely do not know where the disconnect is, I only know that there is one. I'm sorry.

[Dini]

When you see Plains of Eidolon in the title and get excited 

[Hedasker]

Ah, I see the Naramon's nerf. All the other schools have invisibility now...

By the way, looks like you wanna force us to use Focus and Operator when the game is still called Warframe. Bad move. We love the game for the Warframes and their capacities and mobility, not for the sluggish teen speaking childishly.

Waiting for more informations to get a better idea of those changes.

[Pendragon1951]

Even if the extreme happens and you do get surrounded, so what your Warframe is so much faster and tougher that you could probably break through the encirclement anyway lol 

[DatLoon]

23 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

I'm utterly confused by DE's decision-making. People don't like having to play operators. Let's make them play operators more!

Guys... The whole operator idea was a huge mistake. The best thing you can do is get rid of it entirely. You used a story quest to give us the operator, you can use a story quest to take it  away again. The ship gets attacked, the operator is mortally wounded, and the only option is to permanently transfer their consciousness into a warframe (using Orokin Continuity or whatever Rell did to lock himself inside Harrow), leaving their dead physical body behind. Boom, no more operator, and you can get back to working on the things we actually play this game for.

But then what's the point? The problem with the operator is that it's squishy, weak, and slow. The obvious solution is to make it tough, powerful, and fast, which is what DE seems to be going for. The reason this obvious solution is wrong is that we already have characters that are tough, powerful, and fast. They're called warframes. No matter what they do, playing one will keep you from playing the other, and as a result will be a detriment to the game.

Ooooor to give us The Choice. Like, to make ultimate sacrifice quest where you choose to be "yourself" yet bounded with Warframe bc you can't w/o each other already or to finally bond gems into one body how Rell did. It would give clear and pretty interesting lore opportunity since it is canonically possible. Removing something entirely never helps bc there always are people who enjoy this, even partially.

I enjoyed ghost operator a lot since Second Dream showed us big bond and link between them, War Within continued it. I wouldn't want my girl to be removed but I would be completely fine if we'd have quest where we actually can BECOME Warframe and leave it as ultimate choice. But probably that's very bold decision and even if it will happens, it will take a lot of time and effort anyway. Plus DE will be forced to balance system for players who choosed "fuse" path. So pretty unlikely, even if it's amazing as concept.

But yeah, must admit, I don't want operators to replace warframes, it's a huge, messy, furious and screaming NO in distance. I stick with link between warframe and operator, it has a lot of reasons. I completely don't stick with idea where operator gets rid of warframe like old toy. That would be a groundbreaking fatality for me. I hope DE still listen our feedback and understand that we are not  those "angry players" constantly, we just have preferences. One of my preferences in Warframe was it's uniqueness bc you are not forced to play human like other games were. You had artficial race of beings some examples of those only remotely remind humans, they can be sentient, they can be wild, but they are different (not exoskeletons or costumes in the way, more like mini-evas, just more smart and with another relationship concept, that's still very rare since many devs seem to be afraid of it) and this whole concept was great. I understand why ppl don't like operators since they partially ruin that uniqueness concept but at least warframes are still main power and plot engine in game. I hope it will remain since it was main reason many of us were charmed by this game.

Sorry, my comment became more my personal rant tham answer, but whatever. 

[PublikDomain]

Shouldn't Vazarin, "Counter the Enemy", get the damage reflection and damage reducing void dash? You know, abilities that nullify the enemy's offensive abilities? Where's the bit that shows that "they maintained constant awareness in order to defend against all aggression"?

Shouldn't Naramon, "Know the Enemy", get the active that lets you watch from the shadows and deal extra damage for it? What does disarming the enemy and running into melee range have to do with the belief "that to truly understand a foe would confer the greatest advantage upon a warrior"?

Shouldn't Madurai, "Engage the Enemy", get the melee passives? Why does it get a stealth active? How does stealth show "their swift, uncompromising onslaught, holding nothing back and recklessly attacking their foes"?

Shouldn't Unairu, "Outlast the Enemy", get the team invincibility active? What does stealth and armor stripping have to do with allowing you to "withstand all aggression without retreat"?

Shouldn't Zenurik, "Dominate the Enemy", get the armor stripping void dash and disarming void beam? Why has Zenurik ever been about energy when the school is about "choking an opponent of all resources; that sheer strength could erase any resistance"?

[HyokaChan]

All of the combat scenarios require you to use Transference. Under fire from a supra? Your first idea should not be use Transference and expose a 100hp Tenno to enemy fire. Hell no. Void dash into an objective? That's where the enemies are. Just because you're invincible while you do it, doesn't mean void dashing into your own warframe isn't a better idea.

 

You're just forcing us to use Transference. Please shift the focus (ha) back to the warframes.

[Fluffysbeans]

3 hours ago, Vaporoxgaming said:

Unless that energy regeneration is incredibly quick, speaking in terms of like 10/second, you're taking the whole reason Energy Overflow was used and tossing it out the window.  You're trying to force Operator Mode into normal gameplay in order to make Warframes more effective.  Isn't that why people don't play Saryn that often anymore?  Because her abilities are next to useless without being forced into combinations?  Don't make the energy economy any worse than you already have.

^ Aaaand disregard this guy's opinion.

To elaborate:
First off, I run a 45% efficiency Saryn build and almost never run out of energy. I almost always have the highest damage and kills in the squad while just pushing 1, so I don't know where you're finding these forced combos. I'm guessing you think Mag is also useless?

Second, the point of Zenurik is to enhance a frame's energy pool durability in extended missions. This rework changes the buff from self-targeted with a very limited team bonus to a fully team-oriented deployable that doesn't require that you stay in focus mode to give energy to teammates. It's a team-based game, so this evolution makes sense. To be fully honest, I figured DE was going to remove energy bonuses from focus entirely, since current zenurik's mentality is quite selfish and imbalanced (minus the few people who actually equipped energy spike and energy surge), but this compromise is really quite fair.

And if we want to discuss what really matters, does the new energy restore effect frames with active channeled abilities? Energy overflow didn't, but energy spike still restored energy to channelers. Having that info will really change how much the numbers matter, and having a duration for zenurik's deployable will also change how we can judge it.

[jetpack_jack]

Great work DE, pushing the boundaries & trying new systems is always appreciated :)

Much to test out in real game-play, refinement over time, but the basics you have outlined seem positive & promising so far! 

'. . . . rebuilding entirely new ability paths. We are also including cross-Focus nodes you can unlock within different trees! . . .'  This sounds like the best-of-both-worlds approach, keeping useful features & widening their availability, excellent ! ! ! 

From the new Focus screen visuals I saw (tree structure, node options, customisable progression etc), while Reb was playing, we have much to explore & develop over time, i'm guessing the design is for long-term personalised structure, rather than a fixed predefined set of options, i like this very much, building strength & preference into our focus ideal, steadily, with clear choices and 'cross-over' possibilities as our investment of points grows to maximising all schools, to a point we have properly earned power & choice!

As a work-in-progress, focus 2.0 has great potential which i can't wait to experiment with, so i'm anticipating a great improvement over the current system ! Making all schools relevant is vital, so i will be reserving full judgement until i have had some time to play with the latest iteration, but thanks for all the hard work so far & not being complacent  Having played for 1,000's of hours, since the early open beta days, i am confident you will find a balance between your dreams & our satisfaction.

Bird Slayers get ready !  

 

[Godly]

that's awesome
جميل جداَّ

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Operators should be invincible and stupid strong and fast, but only be playable for a short duration because if their power isnt contained it can obliterate the universe. Then powerful passives are residual of their unbound power.

[ES3M]

Yeah these all sound bland, more so than Focus 1. It all boils down to "cluckly jump out of your warframe and maybe dash into something for a bonus unrelated to the school's meaning"

I know I picked Unaru because I wanted to turn invisible; not for the medusa effect or the tankiness. Yeah there is an armor boost but wouldn't a Reinhardt energy shield be a more fitting active than an Ivara ability?

[UrielColtan]

15 hours ago, Kharseth said:

Is it just me or do these abilities just sound... boring? I mean maybe people will come up with fun interactions between various Operator abilities, or between Operator and Warframe abilities. But stuff like disarming enemies or getting free bonus damage just sounds kind of boring to me. Boring stat increases like +dmg especially tho.

A lot of these abilities also seem to be "superfluous trick moves". By that I mean something like the melee ground slam: On paper a ridiculously overpowered move that can stun even heavy units, opens them up to Finishers and has no downtime. But in reality nobody uses it because optimizing for high damage builds without fancy trick moves is the faster option, and speed both matters for not falling behind during group play and for not feeling like an inefficient fool while Soloing. Basically, even around the endgame Warframe is so easy that it works to its own detriment because it makes "trick moves" superfluous. Even enemies like Wardens that are designed to be taken out by a certain "trick move" (Finishers in this case) eventually just become cannonfodder people breeze through like any other enemy.

By "trick moves" among the new Focus abilities I mean stuff like disarming enemies (instead of just shooting them) or debuffing Noxes (instead of just shooting them), but even the example of protecting Saryn counts (just use one of your billion revives or health pizzas or Mantis med towers or Regen Molt or Life Strike or...).

I also don't really know why TWW-style activating the Operator to reap bonuses is necessary, seems like a boring ritual to perform every time you start a mission. Maybe it's for pre-TWW-but-post-TSD people? But I imagine the amount of people in that group with enough Focus to unlock substantial Focus buffs is negligibly small.

All that said, good on DE for - by the looks of it - not caving to community demand and reimplementing free energy. When abilities get spammed thoughtlessly, the game becomes pretty boring pretty quickly IMO. I know some people love to feel like they're playing with cheats on, but man when they're on all the time I can't help but feel you're cheating yourself out of a lot of fun. Which can seep into squad plays or meta builds that inform how the Warframe community at large plays the game, especially newbies that get the wrong impression of how the game is meant to be played properly.

I don't see the nobilitiy in ignoring people's valid issues.

What's so easy about the game if many of the devices are inefficient and worthless btw? Things are SO easy....with that one meta build you happen to just use constantly, and unsurprisingly get bored by, because there is little variety scaling elsewhere. 

And why should a Warframe otherwise not be able to generate energy this way given how insufficient the energy economy is, to the point that certain frames are prone to being sitting ducks to be picked off without it. Just because you may play invincible Inaros with maiming strike atterax with macro spin attack spam,  does not mean thats fun for everyone(if even they have the likes of maiming strike to boot.) or that everyone wishes to just use that as opposed to all their other frames and other options. People tend to like variety and being able to have more than that specific meta frame with that specific meta build and that specific arcane set, be useful.

Warframe powers are the most distinct thing separating them from another Warframe. Are the Eximus, nullifiers, Scrambus, Bursas, broken sapping ospreys, crazy armor scaling and being outnumbered by hitscan enemies, not enough of a detriment? Are forced, meticulous procedures such as the steps for Kuva guard fighting, the road we honestly want to go down instead? Because this is just looking like an expansion of that, just beyond the Kuva guards, due to exaggerated visions of everyone even having maxed out Zenurik, with Arcane energize sets, spin to win macro and press 4 to win(ones of which are labeled as such, barely scale that well either.).

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

6 minutes ago, Fluffysbeans said:

^ Aaaand disregard this guy's opinion.

To elaborate:
First off, I run a 45% efficiency Saryn build and almost never run out of energy. I almost always have the highest damage and kills in the squad while just pushing 1, so I don't know where you're finding these forced combos. I'm guessing you think Mag is also useless?

Second, the point of Zenurik is to enhance a frame's energy pool durability in extended missions. This rework changes the buff from self-targeted with a very limited team bonus to a fully team-oriented deployable that doesn't require that you stay in focus mode to give energy to teammates. It's a team-based game, so this evolution makes sense. To be fully honest, I figured DE was going to remove energy bonuses from focus entirely, since current zenurik's mentality is quite selfish and imbalanced (minus the few people who actually equipped energy spike and energy surge), but this compromise is really quite fair.

And if we want to discuss what really matters, does the new energy restore effect frames with active channeled abilities? Energy overflow didn't, but energy spike still restored energy to channelers. Having that info will really change how much the numbers matter, and having a duration for zenurik's deployable will also change how we can judge it.

I dont ryn efficiency or strength modifiers on my spore build and usually have the most kills and no energy issues. So ya, the previous saryn comment is dumb. I like the new changes, anf wrkin with channel abilities would be dope!

[(XBOX)sherbsville]

This makes me so sad. Everytime you talk about it, my heart sinks a lil more. It feels like you don't even play warframe, or understand how it works, even tho you make it. It feels like y'all had a vision, and are forcing it on folk who have invested alot of time, and in some cases money into your game. There would've been room for your new vision, and for warframe. But it feels more and more like you are casting warframe, and more importantly, long time players aside, in order to appeal to new ones. Many of us play warframe, because we love everything about it. We don't want another tedious open worlde game. The operators are slow and awful to use. You are taking things such as zenurik, that people have invested alot of time into, and created builds around, and are throwing all that in the bin. It feels like you don't respect or care about the players who have got you where you are. You feel so out of touch with many of us, and it makes me feel sad. It makes me feel stupid that I invested so much energy into warframe, when you just don't seem fussed about us players. This is just all so horrible. The fact you thought you'd do stuff like this, without a second thought, That y'all seemed shocked when people were upset. Ugh guys. Also, I just saw that ure giving the flippin soma prime away to anyone, so nice shiny new folk who start playing wf with PoE can have it on day one.  I used to love you guys, but this whole thing has changed how I see you all. I'm not mad with you, it's worse. I'm dissapointed in you. I wish you would read all the comments that people have left, as so many people have explained the many issues so well. But I feel even if you do, you won't take note. 

[Harestation]

This rework sounds quite good and interesting so far o/.

About channeling, i wish we could toggle it. Atm when i switch to melee i attack with left click, and channeling is on E. Maintaining E with all the other stuff you've to do, like sliding etc. isn't really practical.

[phoenix1992]

Ok...

One final, epilogue before I buzz off for the weekend and try to ignore that *this* topic exists.
I think... I get it, kinda.
But If I do, it is rather ugly and a borderline insult towards the player base. 
You see, Warframe is really not streamable or watchable. Any player after a certain point, knows that you are not "seeing" the enemies you just know where they spawn and start making some rather extreme fast paced Parkour U turns that turn everything into blurry mess.
You also know how much of Loki, Ivara and Ash streams you can watch.
Or Ember, or Saryn or any of the DPS frames that just enters a rhythm and keeps going until it is time to evacuate.
Or guys like Limbo, Frost and Nidus that just turn part o the map in "my place" and you simply can't move them out of there.

Yes, legit this is boring "to watch". Snippets of it are cool. Some random "lulz" moments as well like this gif : 

But in general? You would move too fast, on semi automated mode while repeating motions in order to cause havoc.

I am also attaching a example of that from DKDiamantes : 

Yes, this is interesting for me because he is talking over some mechanics and builds. But watching this on stream?
And the crowd goes mild. (btw no offence if he does Stream, it is just not something engaging) 

The "new focus system" - yes it would be streamable. A lot slower, with time for the streamer to explain stuff and some "luls" moments.
Make no mistake, fellow tenno - I respect the streamer's job, and I am following quite few, but Warframe is meant to be played and experienced.

[Budumpshh]

But why Channeling Efficiency?

Is channeling getting a rework? I've never actually used it unless I wanted to see the effects of some prime armor at the end of a mission.