Plains of Eidolon: Facts & Fundamentals of Focus 2.0

[BlueberryIsWar]

1 minute ago, Very_Melon said:

You mean like we asked for "some tweaks" for the current Focus system that was left to rot for 2 years with 3 out of 5 schools being useless and one of the remaining two having 1 single useful ability?

The irony being, that their fix is to remove the good passives instead of just adding more options. This time Zenurik is the new Unairu, next time who knows. Maybe Vazarine? Maybe Naramon? We will see in 2 years I guess.

[Hobzor]

So, for making the Operator more fun and viable to play as (ignoring that we don't know the full extent of what they're already planning and assuming anything I say could be worked into the Operator Weapons they are adding):

Lore wise this could be presented as them developing and mastering their powers (or remastering them since they presumably would have done this in the past). Tie this in with Focus.

Operator Stats

Health: 100 (Base)

Shield: 0 (Base)

Energy: 100 (Base)

Sprint Speed: 1.0 (Base)

Armor: 0 (Base)

By unlocking skills from Unairu Operator can gain Void Shield and/or Void Armor which while having no specific resistances have no specific weaknesses either and do block/mitigate damage that bypasses normal shields/armor. As well as health boosts

From Madurai they get damage, attack and movement speed buffs and add physical and/or elemental damage to their Void attacks.

Etc.

By default they have a less slow and miserable version of their current mobility. As they progress through the Focus paths they can unlock mobility skills besides speed buffs and fall damage reduction, things like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3iUT4pH0gU

Wild Goose and Jump Across the Clouds equivalents being available by default as Void Dash (functioning as the Operator's dodge roll and bullet jump). Basically make their mobility more fluid and graceful as well as just generally increasing it. Maybe something like "Void Sprint": Boosts the Operator's sprint speed by X%, making them nearly immaterial to reduce incoming damage and allows them to run through and stagger enemies, possibly inflicting various status effects.

For combat increase Void Beams' base range or give a node that boosts it. Void Beam is now the Operator's primary, tapping F switches to Void Blast as their secondary. Void Blast now functions more or less like the Arca Plasmor and has better base damage on top of the range increase, it can also be charged to increase damage, range and blast width. Holding F (or tapping E) causes the Operator to generate a blade of Void Energy like a Protoss Psi Blade.

(As I believe they already said they're doing, or something similar) All Operator powers are fueled by the Operator's Void Energy but each power has it's own pool charged from the Operator's main energy reserve which regenerates on it's own over time. Zenurik allows upgrades to the Operator's energy pool and how quickly and efficiently energy is transferred to powers that need to be recharged. On top of this a small portion of the Operator's energy is funneled to the Warframe's energy pool when the Operator is not out and about themselves, giving the Warframe a base energy regen equivalent to a maxed Energy Siphon. Operator powers don't recharge when in use (mainly only Void Beam and Void Mode would be affected by this).

Now! Why would you use the Operator if you don't have to? Exploration. Add paths in level tiles that Frames can't go through for whatever reason (sensors that can detect the Frame but no the Operator, Frame to big, obstacles only the Operator can bypass/overcome, whatever). These could be shortcuts or lead to things like the puzzle rooms/obstacle courses in Void/Derelict missions and on Lua for additional loot (preferably desirable loot). Or just missions that like Tactical Alerts have locations equipped with sensors that detect you by some energy Warframe's radiate but Operator's don't or an effect like Sortie weapon restrictions that would prevent a Warframe from functioning properly in the area or stop it altogether, requiring the Operator to Metal Gear their way to a control center to shut it down before beaming the Frame in and going to town. This of course would be purely optional and the only content/rewards locked behind it being things that affect the Operator and Focus thus allowing people who wouldn't use the Operator anyway to ignore it.

Does that sound good to anyone?

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

4 minutes ago, Hobzor said:

So, for making the Operator more fun and viable to play as (ignoring that we don't know the full extent of what they're already planning and assuming anything I say could be worked into the Operator Weapons they are adding):

Lore wise this could be presented as them developing and mastering their powers (or remastering them since they presumably would have done this in the past). Tie this in with Focus.

Operator Stats

Health: 100 (Base)

Shield: 0 (Base)

Energy: 100 (Base)

Sprint Speed: 1.0 (Base)

Armor: 0 (Base)

By unlocking skills from Unairu Operator can gain Void Shield and/or Void Armor which while having no specific resistances have no specific weaknesses either and do block/mitigate damage that bypasses normal shields/armor. As well as health boosts

From Madurai they get damage, attack and movement speed buffs and add physical and/or elemental damage to their Void attacks.

Etc.

By default they have a less slow and miserable version of their current mobility. As they progress through the Focus paths they can unlock mobility skills besides speed buffs and fall damage reduction, things like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3iUT4pH0gU

Wild Goose and Jump Across the Clouds equivalents being available by default as Void Dash (functioning as the Operator's dodge roll and bullet jump). Basically make their mobility more fluid and graceful as well as just generally increasing it. Maybe something like "Void Sprint": Boosts the Operator's sprint speed by X%, making them nearly immaterial to reduce incoming damage and allows them to run through and stagger enemies, possibly inflicting various status effects.

For combat increase Void Beams' base range or give a node that boosts it. Void Beam is now the Operator's primary, tapping F switches to Void Blast as their secondary. Void Blast now functions more or less like the Arca Plasmor and has better base damage on top of the range increase, it can also be charged to increase damage, range and blast width. Holding F (or tapping E) causes the Operator to generate a blade of Void Energy like a Protoss Psi Blade.

(As I believe they already said they're doing, or something similar) All Operator powers are fueled by the Operator's Void Energy but each power has it's own pool charged from the Operator's main energy reserve which regenerates on it's own over time. Zenurik allows upgrades to the Operator's energy pool and how quickly and efficiently energy is transferred to powers that need to be recharged. On top of this a small portion of the Operator's energy is funneled to the Warframe's energy pool when the Operator is not out and about themselves, giving the Warframe a base energy regen equivalent to a maxed Energy Siphon. Operator powers don't recharge when in use (mainly only Void Beam and Void Mode would be affected by this).

Now! Why would you use the Operator if you don't have to? Exploration. Add paths in level tiles that Frames can't go through for whatever reason (sensors that can detect the Frame but no the Operator, Frame to big, obstacles only the Operator can bypass/overcome, whatever). These could be shortcuts or lead to things like the puzzle rooms/obstacle courses in Void/Derelict missions and on Lua for additional loot (preferably desirable loot). Or just missions that like Tactical Alerts have locations equipped with sensors that detect you by some energy Warframe's radiate but Operator's don't or an effect like Sortie weapon restrictions that would prevent a Warframe from functioning properly in the area or stop it altogether, requiring the Operator to Metal Gear their way to a control center to shut it down before beaming the Frame in and going to town. This of course would be purely optional and the only content/rewards locked behind it being things that affect the Operator and Focus thus allowing people who wouldn't use the Operator anyway to ignore it.

Does that sound good to anyone?

Nice. 

[meggarox]

5 minutes ago, Hobzor said:

Now! Why would you use the Operator if you don't have to? Exploration. Add paths in level tiles that Frames can't go through for whatever reason (sensors that can detect the Frame but no the Operator, Frame to big, obstacles only the Operator can bypass/overcome, whatever).

Easy, make areas (such as crystal caverns) disrupt transference, preventing the Operator from telepathically controlling their Warframe in that area and forcing exploration to be conducted via Operator.

[EDavid]

 

2 minutes ago, Dark-Vortex said:

Easy, make areas (such as crystal caverns) disrupt transference, preventing the Operator from telepathically controlling their Warframe in that area and forcing exploration to be conducted via Operator.

or use your handbeams to make void plants like in lua or the void. some sort of platforming, circuit connecting puzzle.

[MirageKnight]

1 minute ago, Dark-Vortex said:

Easy, make areas (such as crystal caverns) disrupt transference, preventing the Operator from telepathically controlling their Warframe in that area and forcing exploration to be conducted via Operator.

Oh goody - you're giving DE more ideas for forcing what should be an optional mode on us. /s

You seem to have missed the part where the majority of players have pretty clearly said that they don't want to have Operators forced on them.

Also, your suggestion runs counter to established lore; Operators were / are able to control their 'Frames over massive distances, even between Real-space and the Void.

[EDavid]

13 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Oh goody - you're giving DE more ideas for forcing what should be an optional mode on us. /s

You seem to have missed the part where the majority of players have pretty clearly said that they don't want to have Operators forced on them.

Also, your suggestion runs counter to established lore; Operators were / are able to control their 'Frames over massive distances, even between Real-space and the Void.

i see your point, but i think it wouldnt be a must-to-do thing but more like a reward. it would be bad if one who invested the operator mode couldnt get any reward and who invested more to farming or upgrading weapons do. Maybe that  would have an operator specific reward, so they can evolve in the game system too.

Spoiler

And the queens could block the network with lotus.

After i wrote this i think i overthought a thing that didnt happen.

[Nez-Kal]

57 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

You know, I can honestly say that I never knew the frames could be killed while using Operator mode.  This is completely new to me.  Interesting. 

Just tested it again in the Simulacrum, JUUUUST to be sure. X'D

 

Yeah, it's still a thing. Also, as far as I can tell, there's no indicators for your Warframe's health when you're in Operator/Tenno form, so you don't even KNOW your Frame is being murdered a room or so away from you. You just suddenly flop dead as Operator, and get returned back to your down Frame's body.

[BlackCoMerc]

All this time to work on this...and the best you could come up with are things like increased damage, brief energy restore and a CHANCE to do something useful? Not to mention: more Channeling Efficiency? I dont even know where to BEGIN to talk about how sad all this is to read. I really dont. 

First: Increased damage. Its...a number going up. One we will neither see  outright, or even notice at all in 99% of encounters. Its literally a useless perk. Literally useless.

Second: Temporary energy Regen in a stationary area. Do I even need to TALK ABOUT how bad this is? I have 89 Large Energy Restores right now, and hundreds of thousands of the resources I need to make more. Again, for vets who have unlocked this stuff...it is - LITERALLY - useless. In fact, since it requires the (badly implemented and not at all fun to use) Operator, its actually WORSE THAN the tools we have now.

Third: Melee Channeling efficiency. Melee channeling still exists? Hmm...I honestly didnt know that. I thought it went with Overheating for Sentinels - out the window. There's literally NEVER a reason to do it in the first place, but hey, lets make this useless facet of game play cost less to be useless. 

If this is the best you can come up with for Focus 2.0, you may as well take both the Operator and the Focus system, toss them out the window and refocus development on the WARFRAMES that are the reason we actually play this game.

You could start with your damage 3.0 rebalance that is so desperately needed in this game.

[BlackCoMerc]

2 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Just tested it again in the Simulacrum, JUUUUST to be sure. X'D

 

Yeah, it's still a thing. Also, as far as I can tell, there's no indicators for your Warframe's health when you're in Operator/Tenno form, so you don't even KNOW your Frame is being murdered a room or so away from you. You just suddenly flop dead as Operator, and get returned back to your down Frame's body.

As if we needed ANOTHER reason to avoid the Operator mode...yay!

[letir]

Just now, EDavid said:

i see your point, but i think it wouldnt be a must-to-do thing but more like a reward. it would be bad if one who invested the operator mode couldnt get any reward and who invested more to farming or upgrading weapons do. Maybe that  would have an operator specific reward, so they can evolve in the game system too.

And the queens could block the network with lotus.

After i wrote this i think i overthought a thing that didnt happen.

Warframe is grind-based game, so any kind of reward will became a target to achieve. People will play for the reward and get frustrated.

[Archwizard]

On 9/29/2017 at 12:48 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Saturday Sept. 30 Update:

A broad update here on some additional tweaks to the Focus earning values overall since I've seen a few comments about this:

1) The daily cap will likely be increased to 250,000
2) Convergence Orbs will boost Focus gains from 6x to 8x for the duration. 

Some problems here.

As I previously posted in this very thread,

On 9/29/2017 at 2:12 PM, Archwizard said:

[...] what about the critiques that have been offered to the current Convergence-based system of gaining Focus? While Convergence is active, players are encouraged to ignore objectives/allies (in spite of the cooperative benefits a lot of these trees give) and even competitively steal kills for the entire duration of the timer, and tying it to Affinity heavily benefits frames with stealth aids or borderline-OP nuking ability - not to mention that frames who don't fit in those two categories can take hours or even days to reach the 100k daily cap.
The blinking and ticking also give me headaches and just add stress to the Focus collection system.

We pointed out that lenses have become rarer since Endo/Sculptures and Rivens were added to Sortie drop tables. Instead of making it easier to get component lenses, Dev responded by adding a higher tier of lenses that needs even more of the older lenses to craft.

We pointed out that the value of Convergence is so high (and we feel so punished not using every second of it) that we ignore mission objectives and allies in need, in favor of competing for kills for the entire period it's active. Instead of bridging the gap of focus collection so missing Convergence is less of a loss (or even increasing the value of cooperative play), Dev responded by increasing the value of Convergence alone.

We pointed out that even with Convergence, the Focus cap is incredibly difficult for a lot of frames to reach through standard gameplay. Instead of making it easier to collect Focus overall outside of loot caves or disconnecting its acquisition from Affinity, Dev responded by dramatically increasing both the Focus cap and (in spite of the new lenses and increased Convergence value), once you crunch the numbers, the time we're in loot caves every day reaching it.

We pointed out that Convergence in itself is annoying and disruptive to standard gameplay. Instead of changing the actual process of Focus acquisition or adding alternate avenues, Dev left Convergence mechanically untouched and just raised the numbers around it.

I hate to be one to claim there's a disconnect between players and devs, but there's a glaring disconnect here in that these changes just make existing issues that much worse.

[NightBlitz]

2 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

We pointed out that lenses have become rarer since Endo/Sculptures and Rivens were added to Sortie drop tables. Instead of making it easier to get component lenses, Dev responded by adding a higher tier of lenses that needs even more of the older lenses to craft

they did say at one point that they were looking at maybe moving lenses out of sorties and possibly into Cetus, not sure where they went with that

[KennBone]

to be a bit more cleared.. what abouth add some kind of energy recovery from all schools. not mean like " future old zenurik" but some of recovery is totally necesary. with zenurik now + siphon mod cant hold energy enougth Vs few eximus they eat ur full energy in seconds,

 

[UKnowTheGuy]

I'm excited to get my hands on these changes.

Thanks for the info!

[kevanyenter]

Overall I can't wait to get my hands on these updates and am really excited about it! Warframe is an amazing game and keeps changing for the better.

There are just a few things that stand out to me as out of place and they are mainly the passive range extenders. Vazarins Mending Unity seems counter intuitive to what its core theme is, extra range lets you be farther away from your allies for affinity but does nothing for actual team play or group focus. Same feelings about Zenuriks Energy Pulse pick up ability. Having these presented as a core ability to the school is a bit bothersome and I hope there is more to the school then adding extra range.

At the end of the day I just hope DE commit to keeping the new Focus schools updated to better represent their theme and identities and not left on the wayside with irreverent abilities.

[Archwizard]

Just now, kevanyenter said:

Vazarins Mending Unity seems counter intuitive

Trinity and Harrow each have healing/supportive abilities that reach every ally in their Affinity range.

Blessing, Penance, and Covenant.

Mending Unity increases the Affinity range, and as a result, the radius of these abilities.

 

[Tali]

On 9/29/2017 at 9:48 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Firstly - 'What about Energy Overflow'? On the public build Energy Overflow worked passively for a single player, and we are experimenting with an active, more powerful party-wide buff. Focus 2.0 currently has a placeable party-wide energy buff in Zenurik that stacks with other Zenurik users - think of it like an area-of-effect energy restore consumable that Void Dashing can create. We will follow up in the Update notes about other areas of Energy gain.

If there is anything i see here, is having to rely on staying near a certain position to get energy (just like the energy pads). Which is rather annoying because it slows you down and you have to wait on getting your energy. 

What is nice with energy overflow, is that it provides a constant reliant source of energy. It makes it easier to use your abilities on the get go, which is fun and not restrictive in any way.

I know its not set in stone, i just wanted give my 2 cents.

[YoshiRainbow]

On 9/29/2017 at 4:55 PM, (Xbox One)Reaper Aktual said:

Why is my fighter now a rogue.... This makes me sad. It should be the more damage you take makes the next attack stronger vs staying hidden. Just my opinion.

And my rogue is now ... not a rogue

[Ghost23d]

after watching this thread grow over the past few days and reading some of the criticism's leveled at DE from both sides of the fence, those who are happy...ish with the changes and those who are massively upset by them, us their even the slightest indication that the devs have even bothered to read through any of these posts?? I mean we are in the final phases of seeing PoE before release. Are any of the points made in this thread even going to make a difference? Or is just having a place to vent frustrations with a game developer enough to make everyone "happy"...

 

[GhostLacuna]

2 minutes ago, Ghost23d said:

after watching this thread grow over the past few days and reading some of the criticism's leveled at DE from both sides of the fence, those who are happy...ish with the changes and those who are massively upset by them, us their even the slightest indication that the devs have even bothered to read through any of these posts?? I mean we are in the final phases of seeing PoE before release. Are any of the points made in this thread even going to make a difference? Or is just having a place to vent frustrations with a game developer enough to make everyone "happy"...

 

There has been zero indications that a dev has read any of the dev shop threads at all. 

Rebecca dropped off some info about increased daily cap at 250k and an baffling increase in convergence focus gain from 6x to 8x that is all. 

[Animaye]

Hello DE.

I have to say I greatly enjoy your game as is and given the current information at hand I am concerned. I look forward to you attempting to improve it and in doing so I would like to add some ideas to the mix.

I would like to see operators as useful as possible. I hope the passive operator increases buff them significantly enough that they feel like a viable option for mission completion. So that they are true warriors on par with the Warframes. I would like to see the focus school affect powers given to the operators. For example you could have four ability unlocks per Focus school that would unlock a usable ability tied into the operator.  For instance an Unairu operator could encase enemies in stone for their three, or cause a rock wave with their one. Something that gives them more than stealth, their craftable weapon, and the void dash to combat enemies, while also flavoring the game with the elemental Focuses. I think this would increase the appeal of the operators.

 

Also I would like to take this opportunity to state that this is a great time to put a universal vacuum in the game. Make it a Zenurik (void based) power that can be shared across all frames. This leaves players with the most options. It adds an in game reason for such a thing existing, while also handling a concern of the players. No one has to get it, it is still available on sentinels, but remains an option for players to invest focus points into.

 

Thank you for all of your efforts DE.

[Archwizard]

6 minutes ago, Ghost23d said:

after watching this thread grow over the past few days and reading some of the criticism's leveled at DE from both sides of the fence, those who are happy...ish with the changes and those who are massively upset by them, us their even the slightest indication that the devs have even bothered to read through any of these posts?? I mean we are in the final phases of seeing PoE before release. Are any of the points made in this thread even going to make a difference? Or is just having a place to vent frustrations with a game developer enough to make everyone "happy"...

In all likelihood, any and all feedback leveled before the release is going to be set aside, since "obviously nobody understands the full situation yet, maybe they'll be pleasantly surprised."

^{Of course, leaving out clarifying details of extreme importance usually does not come off as "pleasant."}

[Ghost23d]

The problem with the ideal of hoping for the best is it Will never be good enough to satisfy everyone, hence the phrase Hope for the best but expect the worst.... But I still don't see a single reason the devs opened this thread other than to start a flame war, which the have achieved yet again, if they have no indication of actually wanting feedback or a response to something they are changing, why piss off players by allowing this to be a thing... To make it even funnier we have 26 pages worth of an argument that, as far as we know, is not even worth the data used to store it.

[Neightrix]

Using Void Dash to create an area that gives energy is an interesting idea, I'll give it that. But what does it do for the gameplay? What will gameplay look like? Right now I imagine 4 players constantly jumping in and out of themselves to dash every few seconds all while standing within 5m of each other. That sounds like a direct downgrade to gameplay versus simple passive energy. It seems like the energy field would have to restore a crazy amount of energy, last a long time, or simply put a times passive on the player for touching the field rather than have to actively stand in it - preferably the timed passive so it wouldn't actively promote staying in one spot.