Plains of Eidolon: Facts & Fundamentals of Focus 2.0

[Kaotyke]

1 minute ago, JalakBali said:

- The Hand Beam of Doom: Make the Void Beam of the Operator have extra effects depending on which Focus tree they're using. On top of the (paltry) damage, they could have CC effects like Fire, Cold, Electric, etc, or just knockdowns or confuse, etc.

Have you seen what Wukong's Iron Jab does when it hits an enemy? Many times I've bullied a Nox with it, and it was hillarious.

Imagine that knockback with a  constant beam...

[meggarox]

1 minute ago, neokiva said:

I really do feel sorry for @[DE]Rebecca having to deal with overy 700 replies that say the samethings, the vast majority of the time.

Why? I don't. She gets paid to sort through our feedback, I don't get paid for going through the stress of hearing that one or more large portions of an upcoming update is going to be unusable.

[neokiva]

3 minutes ago, Dark-Vortex said:

Why? I don't. She gets paid to sort through our feedback, I don't get paid for going through the stress of hearing that one or more large portions of an upcoming update is going to be unusable.

Just because she gets paid for it doesn't mean she isn't affected by it. If being paid made us emotionless robots it wouldn't matter.

[-TSA-Rubicon2.0]

34 minutes ago, Atekron said:

and still will one month left to end of 2017

Well as i said it will be first week of December IMO :)

44 minutes ago, BlueberryIsWar said:

I called a PoE release in 2018 already. ;)

On more serious note, they probably will just rush it and make everyone unhappy about the focus changes. Because they just can't really commit to one thing, sadly.

The things to take other abilities from other trees in the current one is awesome for instance, but it requires you to max out the other focus trees. A lot of MMO by now have implemented this cross talent/skill idea, and nearly all of them do it in a better way. Where you can just cherry pick already unlocked nodes from another tree at your own will at any point. Not requiring you to max them just to make it more grindy and allowing a huge build diversity.

They could make it so that you can have X amount of Nodes active at the same time (kinda like the current Mod System from weapons and warframes) without any arbitrary rules of how to mix and match them. Could be awesome. Could lead to OP and interesting builds. But doesn't seem to be the idea yet, essentially just telling you to gather million of focus affinity to then all play basically the same thing in the end. (They also could limit the number of warframe passives you can select to 2 or 3. Which means you won't be locked in to a focus school because of a warframe passive you want and you also can't just go with all warframe passives and ignore operator completely).

Honestly i dont care much about focus, i barely use any focus(i have tons of restores and using them like crazy,but thats my personal gameplay :))
All i need is extra energy and some HP for my Operator, but where i am gonna use him? Well... i use operator only while farming kuva, so fast transference would be awesome for me :)
Regarding the Foucs farm....well this will be ridiculous IMO. 100 000 focus per day and you might need around 100 milions to fill up all focus tree (maybe even more,a bilion ?! not sure how much the pool will increase at the end of the focus tree)

So if i need to farm focus minimum 4 or 5 months to achieve all passive and if DE do not increased daily Focus cap, some extra standing according to our MR - THEN ->

!$&%! IT !!!  .. just give me PoE - Open wolrd and lets make some fun :)
P.S. Why they dont make Operator to have his own MR as well ? Each MR you will be able to choose - % HP, some shiled, energy and so on....

We might even have some specific mission only as a Operator ?

[Ricardo58]

6 minutes ago, Dark-Vortex said:

Why? I don't. She gets paid to sort through our feedback, I don't get paid for going through the stress of hearing that one or more large portions of an upcoming update is going to be unusable.

People in Call Centers also get paid to listen to A-Holes screaming on the phone and giving them every sort of psychological abuse, doesn't mean it's acceptable or ok.

 

[tnccs215]

2 minutes ago, Ceramor said:

im not saying dont criticize but theres a right way to do and then theres the saying the game is dead coz no energy regen wich i have seen so many times during this post that i stopped counting, and ofc they wouldnt talk about movement since it would be a major spoiler on some of the whole combat tenno aspect they have talked about implementing, like nothing about the hand focus thingy or the armor at all.

EVERYTHING IS A SPOILER

You are simply finding excuses. 

Yes, they might change the movement - they might also not, and unless people say so, they will DEFINETLY not know people have issues with the movement. 

And yeah, the game has serious issues regarding its energy economy, with efficiency mods being overly necessary and your power use being dependent on RNG. Yes, Energy Overflow was borderline overpowered, but it was also a band-aid fix for many-issues. 

No, the game won't die - but neither is this perfectly fine. I'm not saying all the criticism here is legitimate and valid - but I sure as hell know that DE is a company composed  by ADULTS who are more than old enough to ignore undeserved criticism and listen to relevant one. 

Which means that even if 70% of this thread is misguided criticism (it isn't), it's still better - much better - than no criticism at all. Or what, you think DE is gonna cry if they were already planning to change movement? NO! They'll roll their eyes, think "thank God we decided to change it, they'll have a nice surprise", and move on. Or at least they should. 

So please, stop grasping at straws in an attempt to defend a misguided position of "moderation" - when that's irrelevant for the case.

[tnccs215]

9 minutes ago, neokiva said:

I really do feel sorry for @[DE]Rebecca having to deal with overy 700 replies that say the samethings, the vast majority of the time.

Well let's hope they read them this time then. 

[meggarox]

1 minute ago, Ricardo58 said:

People in Call Centers also get paid to listen to A******s screaming on the phone and giving them every sort of psychological abuse, doesn't mean it's acceptable or ok.

 

I can't believe you just tried to liken the constructive criticism and typical outrage expressed on this forum post with a man threatening to boil your kids alive over the phone.

She has received zero in the way of stress from this thread and you're a fool to pretend otherwise.

[tnccs215]

Just now, Dark-Vortex said:

I can't believe you just tried to liked the constructive criticism and typical outrage expressed on this forum post with a man threatening to boil your kids alive over the phone.

She has received zero in the way of stress from this thread and you're a fool to pretend otherwise.

Yes, as long as this thread aims its criticism at the devs as a whole - and not personally to the messenger - than there is no terrible injustice being made. 

That said... Anyone who insults the devs, and Rebecca in particular, does not have the right to do so and does not deserve any form of defense. 

[Nilani]

2 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

EVERYTHING IS A SPOILER

You are simply finding excuses. 

Yes, they might change the movement - they might also not, and unless people say so, they will DEFINETLY not know people have issues with the movement. 

And yeah, the game has serious issues regarding its energy economy, with efficiency mods being overly necessary and your power use being dependent on RNG. Yes, Energy Overflow was borderline overpowered, but it was also a band-aid fix for many-issues. 

No, the game won't die - but neither is this perfectly fine. I'm not saying all the criticism here is legitimate and valid - but I sure as hell know that DE is a company composed  by ADULTS who are more than old enough to ignore undeserved criticism and listen to relevant one. 

Which means that even if 70% of this thread is misguided criticism (it isn't), it's still better - much better - than no criticism at all. Or what, you think DE is gonna cry if they were already planning to change movement? NO! They'll roll their eyes, think "thank God we decided to change it, they'll have a nice surprise", and move on. Or at least they should. 

So please, stop grasping at straws in an attempt to defend a misguided position of "moderation" - when that's irrelevant for the case.

sorry that im someone who wants to see the whole picture before demanding changes being made right this instance. the game is still in pepetual beta state. and the focus was even more so. if you dont know the whole picture your critisisme will be skewed with what you allready see in game and personally that just doesnt feel right to me id rather just tell them after the fact so they can be like okay so this is the things that needs fixed right now since its out in the wild and this is the stuff that can wait a slight bit. but sure yell at the top of your lungs over an incomplete painting. 

also i barely ever have an issue with energy and if i do i run energy syphon coz its there for that with a negative so if anything just buff that a bit.

[tnccs215]

6 minutes ago, Ricardo58 said:

People in Call Centers also get paid to listen to A-Holes screaming on the phone and giving them every sort of psychological abuse, doesn't mean it's acceptable or ok.

 

Not really. They get payed to either sell things or attempt to provide assistance. 

The psychological abuse is, unfortunately, not compensated for, and we frankly need to educate ourselves more and find ways to hold people accountable so that abuse such as that doesn't occur. 

[BornWithTeeth]

23 minutes ago, Ceramor said:

im not saying dont criticize but theres a right way to do and then theres the saying the game is dead coz no energy regen wich i have seen so many times during this post that i stopped counting, and ofc they wouldnt talk about movement since it would be a major spoiler on some of the whole combat tenno aspect they have talked about implementing, like nothing about the hand focus thingy or the armor at all.

"Yes, we've fixed the slow and clunky Operator movement, they're much more fun to play now."

 

 

 

Is that a massive spoiler?

[Nilani]

Just now, BornWithTeeth said:

"Yes, we've fixed the slow and clunky Operator movement, they're much more fun to play now."

 

 

 

Is that a massive spoiler?

but if their version of fun is diffrent from our how will that be helpful in any way and people have diffrent feels for what feels clunky

[meggarox]

1 minute ago, Ceramor said:

sorry that im someone who wants to see the whole picture before demanding changes being made right this instance. the game is still in pepetual beta state. and the focus was even more so. if you dont know the whole picture your critisisme will be skewed with what you allready see in game and personally that just doesnt feel right to me id rather just tell them after the fact so they can be like okay so this is the things that needs fixed right now since its out in the wild and this is the stuff that can wait a slight bit. but sure yell at the top of your lungs over an incomplete painting. 

also i barely ever have an issue with energy and if i do i run energy syphon coz its there for that with a negative so if anything just buff that a bit.

An incomplete painting? If I see a part of a painting and it's nothing more than incoherent paint splodges, I don't think "Ah, abstract art, I wonder what insightful secrets it holds", I think "The rest definitely isn't the Mona Lisa if we're looking at a child's rendition of an art explosion"

[BornWithTeeth]

Just now, Ceramor said:

but if their version of fun is diffrent from our how will that be helpful in any way and people have diffrent feels for what feels clunky

You are now directly attempting to turn this into a definitional debate.

 

"But what does clunky mean? What if 'fun' has a different definition to the devs?"

[BlueberryIsWar]

9 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Well let's hope they read them this time then. 

And this is the saddest part. Is investing time in spelling out tought out critic and argue with fellow players worth anything or does no one at DE ever read it.

We rarely know.

[Nilani]

Just now, BornWithTeeth said:

You are now directly attempting to turn this into a definitional debate.

 

"But what does clunky mean? What if 'fun' has a different definition to the devs?"

what im saying is that to really give people closure on how the movement is gonna be they have to show more than just saying this is fun and dont feel clunky

[tnccs215]

1 minute ago, Ceramor said:

sorry that im someone who wants to see the whole picture before demanding changes being made right this instance. the game is still in pepetual beta state. and the focus was even more so. if you dont know the whole picture your critisisme will be skewed with what you allready see in game and personally that just doesnt feel right to me id rather just tell them after the fact so they can be like okay so this is the things that needs fixed right now since its out in the wild and this is the stuff that can wait a slight bit. but sure yell at the top of your lungs over an incomplete painting. 

also i barely ever have an issue with energy and if i do i run energy syphon coz its there for that with a negative so if anything just buff that a bit.

Again, 

- dev workshop are meant to be representative of the final product

- something that is representative is something that possesses all the relevant characteristics of that thing, and therefore any criticism made to it is valid to the other thing

- if the thing here deserves criticism, logic and semantics dictate that so does the planned full thing. 

- it's much harder to change something after it's done than while it's being done. 

- but sure, keep on acting as if writing criticism - that thing no one is obliged to read and is being made with good intentions - when it's implied that it's a good idea to is mean. 

[Dreamforger]

It could be cool if our frame moved aswell... Like we left some energy back for it to act as a decoy (kitting mobs), laying covering fire (suppressing the enemies, forcing them into cover), or maybe even sometimes trying to dodge a bullet for us.

This would be rather cool imo:) Then it doesn't have to sit back while we are doing all the work as an operator. Maybe different frames fall into different catagories, which divtate how they act when not in total control of the operator.

[Nilani]

1 minute ago, tnccs215 said:

Again, 

- dev workshop are meant to be representative of the final product

- something that is representative is something that possesses all the relevant characteristics of that thing, and therefore any criticism made to it is valid to the other thing

- if the thing here deserves criticism, logic and semantics dictate that so does the planned full thing. 

- it's much harder to change something after it's done than while it's being done. 

- but sure, keep on acting as if writing criticism - that thing no one is obliged to read and is being made with good intentions - when it's implied that it's a good idea to is mean. 

i just wanna be positive about it all and so far i dont see much wrong with what they have posed other than ofc the situations but thats prolly mostly down to them not wanting to disclose the rest of the trees, so lets just agree to disagree okay it wasnt my intetion to sound like its not valid but just that imo it seems fine since its suppose to be about the operators not the frames so lackluster buffs for the frames is okay to me

[BornWithTeeth]

4 minutes ago, Ceramor said:

what im saying is that to really give people closure on how the movement is gonna be they have to show more than just saying this is fun and dont feel clunky

It's a yes or no question.

 

"Operator movement is slow and the controls are annoying. Have you guys made any improvements or changes to how Operators move?"

 

The answer is either positive (yes, they have made changes) or negative (no, they have not made changes).

 

 

I don't know why you are defending this.

[BlueberryIsWar]

So ceramor, you tell me that a passive that gives you better channeling efficiency is okay for you?

Or are you saying "Well, I have all trees maxed so the Zenurik tree folks don't matter to me and can just suck it up"

[Nilani]

Just now, BornWithTeeth said:

It's a yes or no question.

 

"Operator movement is slow and the controls are annoying. Have you guys made any improvements or changes to how Operators move?"

 

The answer is either positive (yes, they have made changes) or negative (no, they have not made changes).

 

 

I don't know why you are defending this.

i dont know either, sorry i think a lack of sleep just send me on a rant train over it all sorry. after seeing so many people just going off the lid just kinda drove me up a wall since i love the game as a whole warts an all, i know its not perfect

[DreamsmithJane]

4 minutes ago, Bouldershoulder said:

Were they badly hurt and trying desperately to stay as much in the air as possible to avoid being hit, or were they outmatched, fighting a crowd? Were they moving along your path, or they were crossing you? huh

I said it was a capture mission. You know, the mission type where nobody ever stands still unless they're actually on the capture target or trolling? I ran ahead with my sprinter slowva and primed crowds so they could be wiped out by the rest of the squad after the fissures hit them. I suggest you try it. In a one-directional mission, grab a fast frame, get closer to the objective, and when the rest of the squad comes bullet jumping through, tag them with your void dash. In a defense mission, do it with any frame, when you see someone get attacked by a heavy and roll or bullet jump away. Literally react to their bullet jump, press 5, and bullet jump through them with your operator. It's not as hard as you made it sound. Void dash is actually faster than a standard bullet jump.

6 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

Operators need to be made fun and not too slow to use first, let alone optional. Teralysis can just have the artificial damage blockers taken off and fought with the Warframes, if they really expect us to want to fight it. No one likes switching to operator to do their baby run and other meticulous steps for a fight. Fighting Kuva guards is not a fun thing to do, fighting in the Harrow quest was not fun. The main appeal to me for PoE was always the open world expansion(And Glass Frame/Mesa/Weapon creating.). Focus 2.0 can wait.

You know, I was ready to deliver this big rant about how people keep misinterpreting things, taking changes out of context, and declaring how broken they'll be without this other change that is also happening, but I figured, nah, they don't really need me to do that. Guess that wasn't entirely true. Focus 2.0 is an operator rework. This thread explains what's happening to the passives (now "residuals") that people have focused on in the old system, and gives vague scenarios to explain how operators can contribute to normal gameplay (in lieu of some of the passives being removed) in the new system. Declaring that those scenarios can't work in the old system is both obvious and irrelevant. There is a lot of information we don't have yet, and it is incredibly asinine to assume that they would declare their intention to make operators more capable as warriors, and then change none of the things that they explicitly acknowledged to be problematic in the old system.

So I say again, Focus 2.0 is not reliant on the operator to achieve some other purpose. The operator is its purpose. The rest is a compromise to appease people who resent the fact that operators exist at all, and who want Focus to serve warframes.

8 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

If that is the case, then why is this preview 100% about ways that Focus provides buffs and tactical advantages to Warframes?

See above. People completely lost it on the mere rumour that the current Focus system would be lost to them. This was, quite frankly, to convince them that the sky is not falling, and not to explain in detail how the entire Focus 2.0 system would work. What was shown here was a tiny fraction of each tree, specifically relating the "residuals" that would be replacing the current focus passives, and teasers to try to convince people that maybe operators could be fun to use in normal play (because they definitely aren't now). If you want to know more, go watch Primetime 183, and you can see what the Naramon tree looks like, whereupon it becomes clear that what's presented here explains only the fundamentals of how Focus will work. Probably because the active, operator-centric side of Focus is still actively being worked on, and anything she could tell us now would be even more "subject to change" than what little she did say.

17 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

In addition to the OP basically saying "Operators! Ok, but actually just more passives for Warframes, sorry, bait and switch," it also includes five tactical situations which are presented as being 'solved' with new Focus abilities. Every one of those scenarios was utterly laughable, in a way which suggests that the person who came up with them does not even play the game.

Like I said above, this explains the fundamentals of how Focus will work. Which is exactly what's on the label, so how the heck is this a bait and switch? It doesn't say "Operators!" It says "Facts & Fundamentals of Focus 2.0".

As for those scenarios, they're not, in fact, "laughable".

• Naramon: Yeah, I can get my void beam on a target in the time of Sonic Boom's casting animation, and then I don't have to chase any ragdolled targets. I like it. I have killed Sonar'ed Corpus Techs with my operator for fun, without disarming them.
• Zenurik: Why would you bother bringing energy restores when your Focus school gives you a free equivalent? That's really the only criticism: "everybody brings them!" Irrelevant. I don't even use restores that often, and I'm sick of farming polymer bundles. If I never have to craft another energy restore again, I won't be upset. That's what I got out of this example.
• Unairu: Nox has a significant amount of armor, and you don't want to melee a Nox or be visible to it unless you can get a finisher and/or it's hard CC'ed. Stripping its armor and giving someone else a chance at a clean headshot is actually a very effective tactic, and reducing enemies' damage output and resistance is certainly a good way to "outlast" them. Seems to be borrowing a Naramon ability (more on this later).
• Madurai: The operator killed them. All of them. In one shot. Overwhelming force without a chance of resistance or reprisal. No, you can't do that with a Soma Prime unless you're Banshee. Significantly, this shows operators are independently capable of real combat, which is quite a change. Again, this seems to borrow from Naramon.
• Vazarin: Yeah, I can void dash through someone, and I can do it before the Stomp animation finishes. Saving someone with this is about as realistic as doing it with Harrow's Covenant. It simply requires noticing that they're in danger at the appropriate time, which is really more challenging than the execution. But the scenario is not at all unrealistic.

I would have just as much validity in claiming people who deny this don't play the game, so let's not play that card. It is clear that parts of this post were hastily put together. Rebecca, bless her for all her hard work, is honestly no stranger to copypasta problems and other typos, and you can see them here, but that doesn't mean she doesn't know what she's talking about. We have watched her play the game, and yes, some of us have probably judged her performance. It's possible she didn't completely think through every example scenario, but don't you think that might be because it's just an example to show what can be done with a system that is still in development, rather than a recommendation for the best strategy? If I had to look at an evolving series of partially overlapping power lists and write up examples for how to use them, it would probably look something like this, too. The potential blurring of the thematic lines is worth talking about. It certainly seems like each school is borrowing from the others, and the most effective operator builds will likely involve multiple schools and the aforementioned cross-school passives. But there are a lot of people jumping to conclusions and making up excuses to be rude and pessimistic, when the information either is not available to us or directly contradicts what they're saying.

If you want to see an example of a Naramon ability, look at the video I linked, at about the 16-minute mark. "Void Hunter: Void mode reveals enemies within 5m through walls. This ability costs an additional 2 energy per second." Unranked, so presumably the radius will improve. "Know the Enemy", right? This ability currently exists as Rift Sight in the Zenurik tree, but it's more appropriate for Naramon. Now, I don't know for sure, because she doesn't mouse over it to show the description, but I'd hazard a guess that the Void Stalker node here is the one that was used in the Unairu example, which would mean, that's right, it's a Naramon skill! Also on that screen, we can see that the melee damage mentioned here is a simple damage boost (see, it was a typo/copypasta error, and it's not "on kill" like the affinity passive), and it probably works similarly to Steel Charge (i.e. additive with Pressure Point, not multiplicative with total damage). The names of the lower left nodes imply greatly improving operator mobility, and these will likely be cross-school passives. And oh, look at that, Disarming Blast requires Disorienting Blast to be unlocked, which means that example should also inflict confusion (in the manner of Irradiating Disarm). And this is just a glimpse at one tree. So like I said, there's a great goddamned lot of information we just don't have yet, and jumping to conclusions won't help. But oh no, she said off the top of her head that the "Basilisk" cross-school passive was from Vazarin when it's actually probably Unairu, so crucify her!

Give me a break. This is silly. Look at the information we have, actually, and look at their stated intentions, and think logically about where this is really likely to go. Frankly, I'm pretty excited.

[Nilani]

4 minutes ago, BlueberryIsWar said:

So ceramor, you tell me that a passive that gives you better channeling efficiency is okay for you?

Or are you saying "Well, I have all trees maxed so the Zenurik tree folks don't matter to me and can just suck it up"

to be fair that is on de for not giving us any good channeling weapons evera and trust me i have tried hard to make it work xD

 

edit: what they should do with that one is also remove lower cap for channel efficency so that you can go negative and gain energy with melee