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[DE]Rebecca

Plains of Eidolon: Facts & Fundamentals of Focus 2.0

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4 hours ago, Sanxxieh said:

The whole reason to play warframe is actually ability to use powers. There is many shooters around the Internet, there is no need to play this game if it will only rely on guns. Warframes have abilities for a reason and to use those abilities we need energy. Lots of energy in case of some warframes.

Zenurik 2.0 will not stop from getting energy but is also less reliable for a player using it. Because now will require to go in operator mode, void dash, go to warframe mode and finally dash through the sphere. It seems a step back in case of getting energy, but we'll see how it works when PoE will finally arrive.

That doesn't mean they should be used endlessly, without any kind of restriction at all. "To use guns, we need ammo" is not a reason for ammo to become so plentiful and easily obtainable that you stop thinking about it. It's the same with warframes and energy. And if you're really using "lots of energy", either you're spamming too much, or you're using a low efficiency build that's supposed to use lots of energy. It seems like some people expect to slap on Blind Rage and not suffer any penalty at all. They say Energy Overflow "enabled low efficiency builds" like they're talking about something totally novel and creative, when they're really just talking about getting free ability strength.

You are greatly exaggerating this complication. Switching to operator mode and back is as simple as toggling crouch, void dash is basically just bullet jump, and when you switch back to your warframe, it appears where your operator is standing (i.e. already inside the sphere).

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15 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

That doesn't mean they should be used endlessly, without any kind of restriction at all. "To use guns, we need ammo" is not a reason for ammo to become so plentiful and easily obtainable that you stop thinking about it. It's the same with warframes and energy. And if you're really using "lots of energy", either you're spamming too much, or you're using a low efficiency build that's supposed to use lots of energy. It seems like some people expect to slap on Blind Rage and not suffer any penalty at all. They say Energy Overflow "enabled low efficiency builds" like they're talking about something totally novel and creative, when they're really just talking about getting free ability strength.

You are greatly exaggerating this complication. Switching to operator mode and back is as simple as toggling crouch, void dash is basically just bullet jump, and when you switch back to your warframe, it appears where your operator is standing (i.e. already inside the sphere).

It may be simple, but it still requires going to various hoops, and at the end of the day, I and others don't find that kind of gameplay to be fun.

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Is there a way to use focus while still playing warframe? From the sounds of it I'm going to have to get up from my desk, do the hokey pokey and piss on my keyboard just to get some energy back.

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2 hours ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

I understand your point, and I understand @GrimR3APER's point. I think the Operator gameplay needs to be the focus. If you get that right, then you solve the issues of stats and tools.

IMO, the Operators don't necessarily need to be strong (and by strong, I mean durable), but they need to be powerful (the strength of their abilities). The raw power of their abilities should make up for their relative lack of durability. I think it would be good if they also had regenerating health by default. The abilities should also vary based on the class. I don't mean different effects for their core abilities (Void Mode, Void Dash, Void Blast, and Void Beam); I mean that their core abilities should be completely different depending on the schools. These abilities should be based on the descriptions of the schools. Coupled with this should be some kind of melee gameplay, imo, possibly with energy based/exalted-like weapons. That might suit the different schools' abilities. Regardless, the schools should reflect different abilities that correspond to their descriptions:

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Naramon should offer abilities that reveal and target enemy weak points (think the various scan points of Synthesis targets). It also makes me think of stealth gameplay and tools to weaken enemies by targeting their weak points. Naramon could project some extended energy staff or something of the sort, for striking enemy weak points at a distance.

Zenurik should offer abilities that are wholly offensive in nature: brute strength and sheer power overwhelming enemies. As for weapons, the first thing that comes to mind are energy-based/exalted heavy weapons, slow, but dealing high amounts of damage.

Unairu should offer defensive abilities meant to withstand against enemy attack. They could form an energy-based/exalted shield that could absorb enemy attacks and throw that absorbed damage back out towards enemies. The core Unairu abilities could work in conjunction with the shield, and the shield could also be used offensively, although with less damage.

Vazarin should offer abilities that counter enemies' attacks. Their abilities could be a balance of offense and defense, and could be designed around a synergy of defending and then attacking. This would be the most balanced school, and they could just form an energy-based/exalted sword (a longsword would make the most sense, as it was used to attack and defend in Medieval times). An example of one Vazarin ability centered on countering the enemy could be to lift enemy weapons and turn them against their owners.

Madurai should offer abilities that stagger the enemy and overwhelm them not with brute strength but with speed and savagery. Essentially, think a berserker. Madurai abilities would reflect that speed and savagery, and could probably be centered around agile movements (fast dodges/dashes) and rapidly hurling Void blasts at enemies. Energy-based/exalted weapons would probably be shorter, faster weapons (like a short energy/exalted sword or dagger or dual daggers). Abilities for this school would be purely offensive.

All of these schools would give the Operators stats that would be based around the abilities and weapons of these schools. In order of the amount of health, Unairu would give the most health and armor, followed by Zenurik, Vazarin, Naramon, and Madurai, in that order. In order of the amount of damage dealt by abilities and weapons, Zenurik would deal the most damage, followed by Madurai, Vazarin, Naramon, and Unairu (while Naramon wouldn't deal the most base damage with regular attacks, being able to target enemy weak points would make up for this).

Just for me, that would make Operator gameplay much more exciting, engaging, and meaningful. And it would allow Operator stats and gear and abilities to all be balanced around the individual schools. And as for the passives and actives, you could still have those apply. But the Focus-Operator system wouldn't be designed around that.

Operators also shouldn't be designed around constantly hopping out of and back into the Warframes, imo, and they shouldn't be designed around taking out one or two types of special enemies. That's not fun. That's not good endgame, imo. That's just gimmicky. IMO, endgame shouldn't force you to play with endgame systems. They should be options. The Warframes themselves are already good for endgame (or, at least, they should be). Operators should be a matter of choice. Go with the durable tried-and-true Warframes with their weapons and fairly limited powers, or go with the less durable Operators with their more powerful abilities. If Operators would be designed to stand on their own, offering a slightly different kind of gameplay experience meant for endgame, then you can have a place for Warframe and Operator gameplay. With a system like I propose, I think Focus and Operators would be worth trying out - for me, at least. As it's proposed right now, I have no interest in it.

@[DE]Rebecca and @[DE]Steve, I know you all are busy putting the final touches on Plains of Eidolon, but I really hope you all have some time to look at feedback to the proposed Focus-Operator system. I hope these ideas could somehow find their way into Warframe. I think the premise of the Focus schools are really interesting and have untapped potential to grow the Focus system into something truly amazing.

Good ideas. 

For weapons that exploit weak points as for Naramon daggers and spears are the most fitting for that kind of combat. 

Zenurik could use hafted weapons like polearms that would fit into the whole power play. 

Unairu makes me think of the classic paladin but not with a sword but a mace or warhammer and a shield. 

A longsword is a twohanded weapon and is perfect  for both defense and attack but perhaps you where thinking about a one handed arming sword. Still it fits well with Vazarin. 

For Madurai i would pick dual one handed axes. Due to the fact that axe combat require you to be in constant motion and keep pressure on your enemies. 

 

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1 hour ago, DreamsmithJane said:

You are greatly exaggerating this complication. Switching to operator mode and back is as simple as toggling crouch, void dash is basically just bullet jump, and when you switch back to your warframe, it appears where your operator is standing (i.e. already inside the sphere).

Doesn't sound too bad...unless you need to do it every minute...then it's *probably* going to become tedious/annoying. Does it actually make the game better or fix anything? That remains to be seen...

My favorite Nova build has max efficiency...so hopefully the increased energy from orbs and jumping through the occasional operator hoop will suffice. The main thing I like energy overflow for was having enough energy for Quick Thinking...but if shield gating ever becomes a thing that would be better...

For some reason void dash doesn't "feel" like bullet jump...maybe the differences will be smoothed over in the rework, if not you probably don't need the operator or energy to catch fish. :)

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9 minutes ago, GhostLacuna said:

Good ideas. 

For weapons that exploit weak points as for Naramon daggers and spears are the most fitting for that kind of combat. 

Zenurik could use hafted weapons like polearms that would fit into the whole power play. 

Unairu makes me think of the classic paladin but not with a sword but a mace or warhammer and a shield. 

A longsword is a twohanded weapon and is perfect  for both defense and attack but perhaps you where thinking about a one handed arming sword. Still it fits well with Vazarin. 

For Madurai i would pick dual one handed axes. Due to the fact that axe combat require you to be in constant motion and keep pressure on your enemies. 

 

For Zenurik, because they're all about crushing the enemy, any heavy weapon would be perfect.

For Unairu, they're all about defense and withstanding the enemy, having won a battle before it even commences. That's pure defense. But having a shield + something combo wouldn't be bad. But the offensive weapon wouldn't be a big damage dealer, so it should probably be a sword or something light.

For Vazarin, either a longsword or a one-handed arming sword is fine. It'd be an actual longsword though, not a heavy greatsword and not a saber. Something that allows a balance of defense and offense.

I agree with everything else you suggest.

The main idea is for the Operators to reflect the combat gameplay that's suggested by the schools' descriptions.

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

For some reason void dash doesn't "feel" like bullet jump...maybe the differences will be smoothed over in the rework

Probably because it doesn't reflect off the ground like bullet jump? I died like 5 times just where void Dash was introduced because of it. 

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8 hours ago, Azamagon said:

-snip-

NARAMON

  • Hmm. I hadn't actually considered natural weakpoints - you're right that they of all places should be included.
  • Aren't Operator abilities already Silent?
  • I didn't forget about Executing Dash. What I meant is that, while the Operator can set up finishers with Executing Dash and "Mind Blast", only the Warframe can actually perform finishers.

VAZARIN

  • Admittedly the Shell does seem more like an Unairu ability, I'm mostly just concerned that if it were in Unairu's kit then it would nullify the damage reflection afforded by Mirror Gaze.
    But, let's say that the Shell does take Mirror Gaze into account. If Magnetic Blast was the replacement, perhaps a name would be something like... Tidal Force?
    That or something having to do with redirecting currents, which, I got nothing.
  • These days I try to assume that abilities that can restore shields can also restore Overshields until otherwise noted, given that the only effects I can think of that don't do so innately are Polarize, Molecular Conversion and Guardian (which only restores when you're empty anyway).

UNAIRU

  • Agreed with the flat armor on Stone Skin.
  • If I'm understanding correctly, the point of something like Sundering Dash is specifically to deal with that health asymmetry you're referring to.
  • I think I like Gaia Blast better, yeah.
  • I'm not sure about replacing Magnetic Blast with a barrier, precisely because of what I was saying: you can't capitalize on damage reflection that way.
  • The stealth removal from Unairu would already be optional, since you can choose either to deactivate it or not to take it in the first place. Bear in mind that you're trading "zero attention" for "all of the attention" just by picking up the node, with no secondary benefits (aside from possibly the node behind it).
    ... Unless we decided to add a Rage effect to it.
  • Is your change to Void Chrysalis with consideration to the fact that you're immune to damage in Void Mode anyway...?

ZENURIK

I agree that the cost increases can virtually cripple the Operator in some areas; right now with all of your abilities consuming the same resources, you can have a maximum of 9 seconds in Void Mode, 3 Dashes or 5 Blasts before you're out of energy. If you take both of the benefits from each branch of a given tree, you would probably halve that until you pick up Void Flow (which is only available through one tree outright).
The current setup practically guarantees that players are going to dip just deep enough into Naramon to pick up Affinity Spike, so that they can grind Zenurik for its Way-Bounds, as a precursor to any other Operator grind. The best thing they could do for that would be to improve Operator energy capacity baseline, and reduce the benefit of Zenurik's.

That being said, I think there are a few cases where the energy cost increase is justifiable.
Like, my Shadow Blast suggestion for Naramon; it actively removes the cost of Void Mode, turning the Blast into two abilities in one by frontloading the cost of invisibility - so it reasonably should increase the cost of the Blast.
On the other hand, effects that sidegrade or replace existing benefits (like half of the Dash abilities, or the suggestions for Void Mode to lose stealth), or that carry their own penalties (like Guardian Shell), should absolutely never increase the cost since it would result in a pure downgrade.

MADURAI

They followed the path of Engage The Enemy. Their swift, uncompromising onslaught, holding nothing back and recklessly attacking their foes, could vanquish an opponent before he had the chance to steel himself. Speed and savagery characterized this school.

I don't read that and just think "merciless" - savagery makes me think Madurai Tenno are downright feral, trading safety for bloodlust. Murder is the best CC.
Bear in mind, Void Mode still makes them invulnerable even without the invisibility.
... Actually come to think of it, what if Madurai gained a damage buff from being hit while in Void Mode, like Vex Armor? It would provide them with some semblance of natural damage scaling. Might overlap a bit with Unairu trying to tank hits for everyone...

I think they're saving effects to add to the Void Beam for the Amp weapons.

Edited by Archwizard
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2 hours ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

It may be simple, but it still requires going to various hoops, and at the end of the day, I and others don't find that kind of gameplay to be fun.

Well, if you literally only use the operator to create this energy bubble, it could be tedious. The more reasons you have to use the operator, the less "out of your way" any of them will seem. If you're Zenurik, Void Singularity and Temporal Blast seem useful.

48 minutes ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

Doesn't sound too bad...unless you need to do it every minute...then it's *probably* going to become tedious/annoying. Does it actually make the game better or fix anything? That remains to be seen...

My favorite Nova build has max efficiency...so hopefully the increased energy from orbs and jumping through the occasional operator hoop will suffice. The main thing I like energy overflow for was having enough energy for Quick Thinking...but if shield gating ever becomes a thing that would be better...

For some reason void dash doesn't "feel" like bullet jump...maybe the differences will be smoothed over in the rework, if not you probably don't need the operator or energy to catch fish. :)

To be fair, this also bypasses the cooldown that makes Energy Overflow unavailable at mission start. A couple of people using Energizing Dash will completely replace dropping energy restores to kick things off. My speedrunner Nova build (slowva with stacked sprint speed and Escape Velocity) will be outrunning Volt every time leaving energy bubbles and speed boost wormholes all over the map.

Like they showed us, operators now inherit warframe momentum, so using transference and void dash in the middle of a bullet jump won't even slow you down. And since it's faster than bullet jump, I expect I'll be using it quite a lot for quick maneuvers. I think the reason it feels different from bullet jumps is that void dash is very abrupt, and operators don't inherit momentum on the live build. The result is that you'd suddenly come to a near stop, jarringly blink forward, and stop again just as suddenly. The dev build version looked very different to me on stream. We'll have to see how it feels.

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18 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Well, if you literally only use the operator to create this energy bubble, it could be tedious. The more reasons you have to use the operator, the less "out of your way" any of them will seem.

If it's designed around jumping into and out of your Operator, then it will always feel tedious, regardless what it is. IMO, that's the problem with Kuva farming and fighting the Kuva Guardians. And I'll probably feel the same way about fighting Eidolons since it's based around that same idea of jumping out of and in your Warframe.

Edited by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n
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 Energy Overflow - it better provide ME just as much energy throughout  the WHOLE mission as it does right now - over 2/3rd of my builds rely on it.
I do not care if it gives less but stacks with people in range - they are not always in range and i do not always play in a group and not everyone always has it. 

It needs to move with me - warframe is about mobility not sitting in one place. I do not care about those damn situational bubbles if i'm facing lvl 100+ enemies crowding the area - i need to move around to avoid getting 1 hit. Switching to the emo mode and creating bubbles to sit in is a suicide.

If you screw up one of the only reliable source of energy regen - nerf enemy energy stealing/removal accordingly.


And this whole operator switch crap - it's WORTHLESS. Warframe is not a game of slow tactics. Those scenarios provided may look good in your head - but just like some complicated combo moves - you do not really use those in real gameplay. Let alone risk bringing out a squishy operator among enemies that can 1 hit you.


Also can we get some (non platinum or $$$) clothing and styles for operators? They look like they just came out of the pod cutting their wrists and crying about their sad life.
 

Edited by Ketec
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1 minute ago, --Nef-Anyo-- said:

2 more days before release

 

i thought it comes out soon like anyday

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well any day can mean in the next 2 days, steve said it wont be early week so i am expecting them to release last minute 

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Just now, --Nef-Anyo-- said:

well any day can mean in the next 2 days, steve said it wont be early week so i am expecting them to release last minute 

sigh..

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15 hours ago, letir said:

Yes, Operators should be strong by default, because it's end-game system for veterans with best weapon and builds. They should be competetive right now, not after hours of grind and some mandatory equpement.

devils advocate here..... but if the operators are end game strong then by that definition they're basically as strong or stronger than warframes....so why bother with warframes in the first place....

 

It basically boils down to the below....

If the warframes are weaker than the operator why would you bother with a warframe...

If the operator is weaker than the warframe why would you use the operator...

If you try and add them later like they are now, with I assume some semblance of balance, you get the current situation where operators feel 'forced' into the game even though many of us don't actually like the operator aspect of the game.   (I'll be honest, I've never seen the need for a physical operator....)

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forum isn't registering posting so end up double posting....

Edited by LSG501

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4 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

devils advocate here..... but if the operators are end game strong then by that definition they're basically as strong or stronger than warframes....so why bother with warframes in the first place....

 

It basically boils down to the below....

If the warframes are weaker than the operator why would you bother with a warframe...

If the operator is weaker than the warframe why would you use the operator...

If you try and add them later like they are now, with I assume some semblance of balance, you get the current situation where operators feel 'forced' into the game even though many of us don't actually like the operator aspect of the game.   (I'll be honest, I've never seen the need for a physical operator....)

counter offer: if the operator and warframe can reach about the same powerlevel with specialization, you could use a different playstyle and layout on each, being able to switch playstyle at the drop of a hat depending on what's needed, allowing people with high mastery over the various customization systems to adapt as the situation requires it. instantly :o 

Edited by Fylas
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1 hour ago, Ketec said:

 Energy Overflow - it better provide ME just as much energy throughout  the WHOLE mission as it does right now - over 2/3rd of my builds rely on it.
I do not care if it gives less but stacks with people in range - they are not always in range and i do not always play in a group and not everyone always has it. 

It needs to move with me - warframe is about mobility not sitting in one place. I do not care about those damn situational bubbles if i'm facing lvl 100+ enemies crowding the area - i need to move around to avoid getting 1 hit. Switching to the emo mode and creating bubbles to sit in is a suicide.

If you screw up one of the only reliable source of energy regen - nerf enemy energy stealing/removal accordingly.


And this whole operator switch crap - it's WORTHLESS. Warframe is not a game of slow tactics. Those scenarios provided may look good in your head - but just like some complicated combo moves - you do not really use those in real gameplay. Let alone risk bringing out a squishy operator among enemies that can 1 hit you.


Also can we get some (non platinum or $$$) clothing and styles for operators? They look like they just came out of the pod cutting their wrists and crying about their sad life.
 

According to our most recent information (albeit "subject to change"):

  • Energizing Dash provides 5 energy per second instead of 4. It is indeed "more powerful" as the OP stated.
  • It's usable at the start of the mission. Up to 825 extra energy before the earliest time you can start using Energy Overflow now. Some missions are over before EO gives you anything.
  • Entering the area for any length of time tags you with a persistent buff for 30 seconds that gives you the regen (picture like 5x Octavia passives). It does travel with you, and you will gain it every time you void dash and then exit operator mode (e.g. when Kuva farming, you will accidentally activate it). Since operators will now inherit warframe momentum on using transference, you can void dash out of a bullet jump without even slowing down, and still gain your energy. Maybe leave it in a doorway as you pass, so others can pick it up.
  • One of the passives gives you even more bonus regen for 5 seconds every time you collect an energy orb (equal to 50% of the orb value), and doesn't require any extra action.
  • Operators are (potentially, when fully trained) neither slow nor squishy under this new system. Transference is much faster and more fluid right from the start. These tactics are viable. In fact, new focus powers will be better than ever at covering the gaps in warframe abilities and creating unique ways of playing each frame.
  • Yes, we will apparently be able to earn new operator cosmetics in Cetus with standing.
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From what I understood, the operator armor in Cetus will provide actual stat increases like health armor and shields, so we won't necessarily have to spend half a year of focus farming just to become combat viable.

I might be wrong though.

Edited by Horonelius

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3 hours ago, Fylas said:

counter offer: if the operator and warframe can reach about the same powerlevel with specialization, you could use a different playstyle and layout on each, being able to switch playstyle at the drop of a hat depending on what's needed, allowing people with high mastery over the various customization systems to adapt as the situation requires it. instantly :o 

which would be fine if the game actually needed that type of adaption but lets be honest we don't need to do that if you actually look at what you're doing on the mission first....

And personally I don't want missions added that force us to use the operator, like many others I didn't start playing this game to play as the operator, I came to play as a warframe and we only have 30+ to choose from before we start a mission.....

 

3 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

According to our most recent information (albeit "subject to change"):

  1. Energizing Dash provides 5 energy per second instead of 4. It is indeed "more powerful" as the OP stated.
  2. It's usable at the start of the mission. Up to 825 extra energy before the earliest time you can start using Energy Overflow now. Some missions are over before EO gives you anything.
  3. One of the passives gives you even more bonus regen for 5 seconds every time you collect an energy orb (equal to 50% of the orb value), and doesn't require any extra action.
  4. Operators are (potentially, when fully trained) neither slow nor squishy under this new system. Transference is much faster and more fluid right from the start. These tactics are viable. In fact, new focus powers will be better than ever at covering the gaps in warframe abilities and creating unique ways of playing each frame.

1...1 extra energy isn't really more powerful when you only get it for 30 seconds at a time without micromanaging a void dash to keep it going versus the current/old system of 4 per second constantly.... that 30 extra energy is basically covering the time it would take to do pop out the operator, void dash, run into bubble and back into frame etc if they'd have just left it at 4 per second.... the change just seems like they're trying to 'force' us to use the operator unnecessarily.  edit: Yes they may have said about stacking it but I'm not expecting that to happen because they'll likely see that as overpowered.

2... to be fair if you can complete a mission before EO launches you don't really need it...and I usually run zenurik.

3... which is fine but this is just going to benefit frames like ember etc who have always on abilities active (assuming it doesn't get disabled with channelled abilities because I bet DE hasn't even thought of this) meaning we'll likely see an influx of ember (and the likes) with higher power/range with lower efficiency builds at higher levels doing the same thing as they do at lower levels.... that's going to be so much fun running from point a to point b...

4... I haven't seen anything in the devstreams which show using an operator is a better tactic than using a warframe, while the operator may indeed be an improvement over the current one it still seems like an unnecessary addition considering how long it will take to get all the focus points to 'max out' an operator. 

 

 

Edited by LSG501
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1 hour ago, Horonelius said:

From what I understood, the operator armor in Cetus will provide actual stat increases like health armor and shields, so we won't necessarily have to spend half a year of focus farming just to become combat viable.

I might be wrong though.

Not exactly. We will be able to slot arcanes into operator cosmetics including existing suits and PoE armor. 

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3 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

According to our most recent information (albeit "subject to change"):

  • Energizing Dash provides 5 energy per second instead of 4. It is indeed "more powerful" as the OP stated.
  • It's usable at the start of the mission. Up to 825 extra energy before the earliest time you can start using Energy Overflow now. Some missions are over before EO gives you anything.
  • Entering the area for any length of time tags you with a persistent buff for 30 seconds that gives you the regen (picture like 5x Octavia passives). It does travel with you, and you will gain it every time you void dash and then exit operator mode (e.g. when Kuva farming, you will accidentally activate it). Since operators will now inherit warframe momentum on using transference, you can void dash out of a bullet jump without even slowing down, and still gain your energy. Maybe leave it in a doorway as you pass, so others can pick it up.
  • One of the passives gives you even more bonus regen for 5 seconds every time you collect an energy orb (equal to 50% of the orb value), and doesn't require any extra action.
  • Operators are (potentially, when fully trained) neither slow nor squishy under this new system. Transference is much faster and more fluid right from the start. These tactics are viable. In fact, new focus powers will be better than ever at covering the gaps in warframe abilities and creating unique ways of playing each frame.
  • Yes, we will apparently be able to earn new operator cosmetics in Cetus with standing.

Operator cancels stealth. So i have to switch to a visible operator mode, dash across the room to activate energy, switch back, cast stealth again - and hope i wasn't seen.

And unless they give operators some hey armor or shields and hp and make them scale with warframe HP/shield mods - they are squishy, even warframes take heavy damage sometimes.

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