Plains of Eidolon: Facts & Fundamentals of Focus 2.0

[BornWithTeeth]

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Just a quick update here for the post for everyone concerning Naramon!

That’s interesting! More involved than just a straight up damage buff, slightly less obviously powerful in the immediate sense, but far, far more thematically appropriate for Naramon. 

 

Also, it’s a really, really, really good buff. Please don’t revert it!

[Zahnny]

I'm not asking you to tell me if it comes out today but for peace of mind would you be able to tell me if it isn't today? So I'm not checking the forums every 10 minutes out of paranoia.

[Kurienno]

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Just a quick update here for the post for everyone concerning Naramon!

Sorry, I'm a little slow

@[DE]Rebecca does this mean the team has currently decided that instead of allowing Naramon to obtain extra melee damage it has instead opted to give Naramon a way to keep its melee combo counter up longer by only making it decrease by 5 as opposed to losing everything when the Melee Combo Counter time runs out?

[OniDax]

46 minutes ago, Aeiroth said:

Great! Wonderful! Magnificent!

Now how about fixing Unairu? You depict it as a mountain that will remain standing even after everything else has been lost to time, but I can tell you right now, it's the first one to die at this point. We've all suggested making the armor increase a flat additive upgrade to make squishy frames less so and tanky frame a bit more so without breaking balance. At the very least TRY this one. As for all the other stuff, why the hell is invisibility a Unairu ability? That's AVOIDING damage, not standing against it and is more suited Naramon.

Honestly, at least tell us if the schools still has themes or not, such as Madurai being Offensive, Vazarin being Restorative and Unairu being Defense or if you've done away with this. It sure seems like that is the case now since there are uncharacteristic abilities with for all the school now.

Well, the themes of the schools are:

Unairu: Pure defensive - a mountain stronghold standing firm against attack

Zenurik: Pure offense - overwhelming force (what looks like hard mineral/crystal)

Madurai: Swift, savage offense - aggressive like the force of wind, overwhelming with speed

Naramon: Stealth and slow/stead - like a tree growing roots under the surface, it's stealthy.

Vazarin: Balance of offense and defense - ebbs and flows like a tide, or like the crests and troughs of a wave

It's more than just offensive, restorative, defensive, etc. The schools' descriptions are all combat focus, and not just in terms of stats. Unairu reads like a shield. Zenurik reads like a hammer. Madurai reads like a fast, aggressive, savage berserker. Naramon reads like a ninja or someone who targets an enemy's weak points to weaken then. Vazarin reads like your typical Medieval knight who can use his weapon to attack and defend and counter an opponent's attacks. IMO, Focus has never truly reflected this. And Focus 2.0 reflects it even less. I'd also like for the schools to be based around the themes of the schools.

[DreamsmithJane]

7 hours ago, LSG501 said:

1...1 extra energy isn't really more powerful when you only get it for 30 seconds at a time without micromanaging a void dash to keep it going versus the current/old system of 4 per second constantly.... that 30 extra energy is basically covering the time it would take to do pop out the operator, void dash, run into bubble and back into frame etc if they'd have just left it at 4 per second.... the change just seems like they're trying to 'force' us to use the operator unnecessarily.  edit: Yes they may have said about stacking it but I'm not expecting that to happen because they'll likely see that as overpowered.

2... to be fair if you can complete a mission before EO launches you don't really need it...and I usually run zenurik.

3... which is fine but this is just going to benefit frames like ember etc who have always on abilities active (assuming it doesn't get disabled with channelled abilities because I bet DE hasn't even thought of this) meaning we'll likely see an influx of ember (and the likes) with higher power/range with lower efficiency builds at higher levels doing the same thing as they do at lower levels.... that's going to be so much fun running from point a to point b...

4... I haven't seen anything in the devstreams which show using an operator is a better tactic than using a warframe, while the operator may indeed be an improvement over the current one it still seems like an unnecessary addition considering how long it will take to get all the focus points to 'max out' an operator. 

 

 

1. Uh...I'm sorry? You think it takes 7-8 seconds to use transference, void dash, and summon your warframe again? The bubble appears where you land. Your warframe appears on top of you when you exit operator mode. You literally just have to void dash and then press 5 again. Like I said, this will happen accidentally while you're farming kuva. As seen in devbuild streams, the entire process takes under a second on a bad day. "Micromanage" what? Refreshing a buff every 30 seconds? A lot of them have shorter timers than that.
2. This is usually covered by dropping energy restores at the start of the mission, which is frankly a waste of resources. And soon, completely unnecessary.
3. I highly doubt that. It's regen. I'm pretty sure it has the same restrictions as all other sources of energy regen, like Energy Siphon, Octavia's Inspiration buff, and Energy Overflow. Besides, even if that weren't the case, it's still 50% extra energy from pickups. That's nothing to scoff at.
4. No, you're right, you haven't. You've seen a developer build with barely functional systems and bugs being ironed out, and players with no experience in the new system (like everyone, because it's a new system) trying to get a feel for how to use it.

Let me put it this way. Trinity lacks damage and CC, right? Sure, she can stun one or two enemies at a time, and she has that weird 1-2 combo that only really works in a min duration build. Ultimately, she has nothing to control actual crowds, and when it comes to damage, her weapons do the work. But if she's in Vazarin for the affinity range, now she has access to an AoE stun and what looks to be a physical barrier that pushes enemies back as it grows. If she's in Madurai, she gets free bonus damage and an on-demand mini radial blind. Naramon? Irradiating Disarm and Savage Silence. The question is not "why use Naramon when there's Banshee or Loki?" or "why use Madurai when there's Excal?". It's "what does my operator offer me that my chosen warframe doesn't have?" And depending on your frame and your willingness to put time into focus, the answer is potentially "a lot".

7 hours ago, Ketec said:

Operator cancels stealth. So i have to switch to a visible operator mode, dash across the room to activate energy, switch back, cast stealth again - and hope i wasn't seen.

And unless they give operators some hey armor or shields and hp and make them scale with warframe HP/shield mods - they are squishy, even warframes take heavy damage sometimes.

What? No it doesn't. Besides, if you're Loki, invisibility has to wear off before you can recast it anyway, and Ivara's is channeled (blocking regen) unless you tag an ally with a cloaking arrow and walk next to them.

What do you mean, "unless"? No shields so far, and I'm pretty sure warframe mods are irrelevant (why would you even demand something that specific?), but health and armor, yes. How much armor is still unknown, but Vazarin's contribution to the universal passive pool is a 500% operator health increase, plus health regen. That's more health than all of my most used warframe builds. Plus, you know, they're still invulnerable in void mode, and have all sorts of CC and survival utility available to them.

2 hours ago, TruthArbiter said:

Thanks for the update, but what exactly does "decay by 5 over time." mean? Combo counter timer increased by 5 sec or what?

When the timer runs out, the combo counter decreases by 5 instead of dropping to 0 instantly, and the timer resets. Basically, you lose 5 hits per 3 seconds (or per 13-15 seconds if you have a combo mod installed). This is the same thing they're doing to sniper rifles (combo counter goes down by 1 per 2 seconds rather than just falling off), and the same way that Arca Scisco works currently.

[LSG501]

18 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

1. Uh...I'm sorry? You think it takes 7-8 seconds to use transference, void dash, and summon your warframe again? The bubble appears where you land. Your warframe appears on top of you when you exit operator mode. You literally just have to void dash and then press 5 again. Like I said, this will happen accidentally while you're farming kuva. As seen in devbuild streams, the entire process takes under a second on a bad day. "Micromanage" what? Refreshing a buff every 30 seconds? A lot of them have shorter timers than that.
2. This is usually covered by dropping energy restores at the start of the mission, which is frankly a waste of resources. And soon, completely unnecessary.
3. I highly doubt that. It's regen. I'm pretty sure it has the same restrictions as all other sources of energy regen, like Energy Siphon, Octavia's Inspiration buff, and Energy Overflow. Besides, even if that weren't the case, it's still 50% extra energy from pickups. That's nothing to scoff at.
4. No, you're right, you haven't. You've seen a developer build with barely functional systems and bugs being ironed out, and players with no experience in the new system (like everyone, because it's a new system) trying to get a feel for how to use it.

1.... unless you have some timer going to get it at EXACTLY 30 seconds all while having the perfect moment to eject etc, ie not in the middle of killing stuff, then yes it could quite easily take over 5 seconds to do the process to give you the energy regen again.  What the dev's are showing us and how it actually ends up for the players in game is not always the same, the dev's are doing very specific things during their video's to ensure a 'positive' viewing experience is put forward.  You've also just shown how 'pointless' the process is if you're 'literally just have to void dash and then press 5 again'..... why even have it if that's all you're going to do.

2.... not so sure this mechanism will be quicker than popping an energy pizza or 2, they're relatively cheap for 'end game players'.  1 pizza gives and instant 100 energy the instant it's put down...it would take 20 seconds for the same amount from the regen and assuming the dev's have continued with the same restrictions as current zenurik, frames which 'require' the energy pizza won't be able to get the regen if they end up pressing their 4.

3... I'm not quite sure you're seeing my point on this one....

4... um you do realise those 'players' (warframe stream partners in reality) trying to get a feel for it had an excessive amount of focus at their disposal so could basically level out each focus tree (which they did, they couldn't share tress due to lacking an eidolon shard)....

18 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Let me put it this way. Trinity lacks damage and CC, right? Sure, she can stun one or two enemies at a time, and she has that weird 1-2 combo that only really works in a min duration build. Ultimately, she has nothing to control actual crowds, and when it comes to damage, her weapons do the work. But if she's in Vazarin for the affinity range, now she has access to an AoE stun and what looks to be a physical barrier that pushes enemies back as it grows. If she's in Madurai, she gets free bonus damage and an on-demand mini radial blind. Naramon? Irradiating Disarm and Savage Silence. The question is not "why use Naramon when there's Banshee or Loki?" or "why use Madurai when there's Excal?". It's "what does my operator offer me that my chosen warframe doesn't have?" And depending on your frame and your willingness to put time into focus, the answer is potentially "a lot".

When was the last time you actually saw someone use a purely support frame like trinity in a public match.... it's very rare to see one because most people in the game are more focused on killing stuff rather than being the support frame.

It's also all very well you saying use x focus school with y frame but you do realise that requires focus points for each of those schools.... many players have only focused on one school so will be stuck with their original choice unless they get more lenses and as such start from zero again. 

[WaylanderG]

that's because most people are selfish. But when im running with a noob or clan member i happily play support role. true there is some team spirit on endless missions but generally you find it's every tenno fir him/her self unfortunately. I'm not saying everyone is but they are a rare a precious few that do have the team spirit. 

[meggarox]

OK so Naramon loses, at worst, 5 combo ticks per second rather than, say, 1300 instantly.

So Naramon is now extremely potent. Great.

What about Zenurik? Melee channeling is still a joke.

[Kaotyke]

4 minutes ago, Dark-Vortex said:

OK so Naramon loses, at worst, 5 combo ticks per second rather than, say, 1300 instantly.

So Naramon is now extremely potent. Great.

What about Zenurik? Melee channeling is still a joke.

I wonder if it also added damage...

At max rank: 1,5x... additive,

[plinkoo]

1 minute ago, Dark-Vortex said:

What about Zenurik? Melee channeling is still a joke.

I feel like this is an opening to a channeling rework in the future. They have a lot on their plate right now. If we beg for things and rush em into it, the content may suffer flaws. They have done great with this update so far and everything is prone to change.

[UrielColtan]

18 minutes ago, plinkoo said:

I feel like this is an opening to a channeling rework in the future. They have a lot on their plate right now. If we beg for things and rush em into it, the content may suffer flaws. They have done great with this update so far and everything is prone to change.

An opening only if you complain and request better in the first place. Don't confuse this with "rushing em"(and how long has channeling been around? Its had a long gap between introduction through now to have been improved. It needed this a long time ago.). I also don't agree that this Focus update is "great". The only seemingly great things thus far about the general PoE update are other things, like the open world expansion, weapon crafting, new frame and skin.

[BornWithTeeth]

13 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

An opening only if you complain and request better in the first place. Don't confuse this with "rushing em"(and how long has channeling been around? Its had a long gap between introduction through now to have been improved. It needed this a long time ago.). I also don't agree that this Focus update is "great". The only seemingly great things thus far about the general PoE update are other things, like the open world expansion, weapon crafting, new frame and skin.

No lie, mate, I am rather indecently enthused about the new Naramon Residual. Look at it. Look at it.

[--RV--Meta]

42 minutes ago, Dark-Vortex said:

What about Zenurik? Melee channeling is still a joke.

37 minutes ago, plinkoo said:

I feel like this is an opening to a channeling rework in the future.

 

The DEvs already said as much during one of the streams when they were showing off the new Focus system--that they decided to go with channeling stuff because they plan on reworking the Channeling system very Soon™ but they weren't sure if the Focus buffs would be too powerful or not with it, so they went a little conservative.

I'm interested to see what changes they'll make to try and get Channeling to be relevant/pertinent to the combat flow, and worth dropping mods into....

[UrielColtan]

2 hours ago, WaylanderG said:

that's because most people are selfish. But when im running with a noob or clan member i happily play support role. true there is some team spirit on endless missions but generally you find it's every tenno fir him/her self unfortunately. I'm not saying everyone is but they are a rare a precious few that do have the team spirit. 

Yes, people are so selfish, farming Focus points, which favor killing and are not shared amongst the team like regular affinity points. Let's encourage that DE create more self fulfilling prophecy dilemmas to criticize players over.

[Archwizard]

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Just a quick update here for the post for everyone concerning Naramon!

And while the melee bonus is appreciated... what happened to making Naramon the "rogue" tree?

[UrielColtan]

24 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

No lie, mate, I am rather indecently enthused about the new Naramon Residual. Look at it. Look at it.

How is caring about one ability in a school, yet again, a great update?

[DreamsmithJane]

2 hours ago, LSG501 said:

1.... unless you have some timer going to get it at EXACTLY 30 seconds all while having the perfect moment to eject etc, ie not in the middle of killing stuff, then yes it could quite easily take over 5 seconds to do the process to give you the energy regen again.  What the dev's are showing us and how it actually ends up for the players in game is not always the same, the dev's are doing very specific things during their video's to ensure a 'positive' viewing experience is put forward.  You've also just shown how 'pointless' the process is if you're 'literally just have to void dash and then press 5 again..... why even have it if that's all you're going to do.

2.... not so sure this mechanism will be quicker than popping an energy pizza or 2, they're relatively cheap for 'end game players'.  1 pizza gives and instant 100 energy the instant it's put down...it would take 20 seconds for the same amount from the regen and assuming the dev's have continued with the same restrictions as current zenurik, frames which 'require' the energy pizza won't be able to get the regen if they end up pressing their 4.

3... I'm not quite sure you're seeing my point on this one....

4... um you do realise those 'players' (warframe stream partners in reality) trying to get a feel for it had an excessive amount of focus at their disposal so could basically level out each focus tree (which they did, they couldn't share tress due to lacking an eidolon shard)....

1. You mean like how many warframes already have to manage their buff timers? This is a non-argument. As for "why even have it", maybe it's because they don't want us to stop thinking about our energy and managing it, and also because it allowed them to create a squad-wide benefit that doesn't rely on people not being selfish. And honestly, do you really think that Prime Time and guest streamers were a "best foot forward" situation? DE are remarkable for their transparency in situations like this. It was not scripted. It was barely planned. It was full of bugs, and each time something stupid happened, someone would cheerfully sing "dev build~!"
2. They cost 900 credits, 300 nanospores, and 50 polymer bundles apiece, and at the rate I see them used, they are not cheap for anybody. As for players who mash 4 at the start of the mission and mindlessly run to extraction while channeling World on Fire and the like, watch me not care what they want!  I'll just run back and revive them when their nonsense stops working, and be on my way. They can spend as many resources on energy restores as they want. Doesn't make it any less of a bad idea to use them habitually.
3. Then would you care to explain? You said "this is just going to benefit frames like ember etc who have always on abilities active". I pointed out that the opposite is most likely true — that it's extra energy former Energy Overflow users will have that they didn't have before. And it won't benefit people who couldn't use Energy Overflow in the first place, because if DE "didn't think of that", then that means it works exactly like every other energy regen ability because they didn't change it. In reality, they most likely did think of that, which is why it's regen rather than a straight multiplier to energy pickups. So, what do you think I missed, and what point were you trying to make?
4. Are you implying that they aren't players because they're partners?  Don't be ridiculous. Do you even understand how the partner program works? They aren't DE employees. Even if they were (and Rebb and Meg obviously are), they'd still be players, so the scare quotes and sarcasm are unnecessary. And how does that relate to what I said, anyway? They literally just got their hands on it for the first time. Focus points aside, do you really think they would have already mastered the system? It was a developer build showcase, not a strategy guide.

2 hours ago, LSG501 said:

When was the last time you actually saw someone use a purely support frame like trinity in a public match.... it's very rare to see one because most people in the game are more focused on killing stuff rather than being the support frame.

I saw a few Trinities last night, just hanging out in Hydron and Akkad. Yes, a few. As in more than one, across multiple missions. And Trinity is really not the point. The point is that operators have the potential to cover for areas where frames are lacking, and I thought the ability to add CC and damage to what is normally a pure support frame was the perfect example. I could just as easily have said Banshee with Vazarin can block damage, make herself and allies invulnerable, and revive without stopping the constant movement that keeps her alive. With Naramon, she can leverage Savage Silence without having to circle back when her stun wears off, highlight enemies in the environment (yes, this is actually better than the minimap) for snap tactical decisions, and now improve her melee with a more persistent combo counter, replacing that mod. Rhino with Unairu can stealth (Hear me, all you "I'm bringing Rhino to a sortie spy mission" jerks? Stop running through the lasers!), and protect more than just himself, while also bolstering his armor and Iron Skin.

2 hours ago, LSG501 said:

It's also all very well you saying use x focus school with y frame but you do realise that requires focus points for each of those schools.... many players have only focused on one school so will be stuck with their original choice unless they get more lenses and as such start from zero again.

No it doesn't. It requires you to decide which school adds the most valuable powers that are missing from one or more of your favourite frames, and pick that one. And yeah, there's gonna be farming. I've got something like 7-8 million points across all schools, and I plan to continue developing all of them. On the other hand, if people seriously just plat-rushed into maxing out Energy Overflow or Shadow Step, and kept the lenses to max out Zenurik or Naramon while ignoring the rest of the schools, that's their own dumb fault. And I would be quite surprised if they didn't already have more lenses, considering how often sorties hand them out. Most of us have quite a few weapons and/or frames by the time we're using focus. There was ample opportunity to install other lenses on various equipment used for different mission types, and passively gain focus while doing sorties, invasions, and trials. The fact that some people have nothing in 4/5 schools, despite having unlocked focus on the day Second Dream landed, is just so silly that it's hard to conjure any sympathy.

[BornWithTeeth]

12 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

How is caring about one ability in a school, yet again, a great update?

The joke is that my loyalty is very easily bought with a gloriously useful band-aid effect which means that melee suddenly just works better with the Naramon School.

[(XBOX)INe Saninus]

10 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

The joke is that my loyalty is very easily bought with a gloriously useful band-aid effect which means that melee suddenly just works better with the Naramon School.

...that's a really sweet residual though!

I can't even be mad at you.

That's the kind of thing I wanted to see from this focus rework.

[Kaotyke]

35 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

Yes, people are so selfish, farming Focus points, which favor killing and are not shared amongst the team like regular affinity points. Let's encourage DE create more self fulfilling prophecy dilemmas to criticize players over.

But they are...

[DreamsmithJane]

13 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

The joke is that my loyalty is very easily bought with a gloriously useful band-aid effect which means that melee suddenly just works better with the Naramon School.

Hey, if you wanna melee DPS, you pick the rogue, right?

[UrielColtan]

48 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

But they are...

Yes, because that's why convergence and daily caps exist.

[LSG501]

54 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

snip

And there stops the point in even trying to argue an alternative viewpoint with you....

[Kaotyke]

11 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

Yes, because that's why convergence and daily caps exist.

That has nothing to do with what you said...

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

Yes, people are so selfish, farming Focus points, which favor killing and are not shared amongst the team like regular affinity points. Let's encourage that DE create more self fulfilling prophecy dilemmas to criticize players over.

All convergence does is boost the gain. Caps? Syndicate Rep have caps, remember Viver gate. We have Caps so ppl dont go and farm everything at once.

Those have nothing to do with "Focus is not shared like affinity".

[DreamsmithJane]

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

Yes, people are so selfish, farming Focus points, which favor killing and are not shared amongst the team like regular affinity points. Let's encourage that DE create more self fulfilling prophecy dilemmas to criticize players over.

 

21 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

Yes, because that's why convergence and daily caps exist.

Um, yeah, convergence is just a multiplier. It works on passive/shared affinity gains, too. Focus point gains are directly tied to affinity. When you gain affinity for a max rank weapon or frame that has a lens, it's converted into focus points. That is the entire and only way to gain focus points. They're not just "like" regular affinity points. They are affinity, as applied to lens-upgraded equipment.